The Neurology of Empathy

Welcome to, Trauma Rewired. In this season, as we're exploring relationships, it would not be complete without talking about the empath and the narcissist. Today, we're joined with, Matt Bush, Co-Lead Educator of the, Neurosematic Intelligence Training, to take a deep dive into the neurology of empathy. I have so many clients that reach out to us, identifying as empaths, talking about how overwhelming that is for their nervous system and just how overwhelming it is to be in social situations,

as an empath. I think it's a real big moment for them. I know it was for me. To understand it's a state of being in nervous system dysregulation, where we are operating from a place of needing others for emotional regulation. We're going to get deep into that today and it's really interesting! I hope you guys enjoy this conversation. It was also slightly jarring for me. I'll be really honest with you, I related my identity to my sensitivity and

how I would relate in and to the world. So, this is one of those conversations from, Trauma Rewired. That's a little bomb drop. Could be activating. Could be activating for a few people. It's important to remember, it's beautiful to have empathy and it's beautiful to be a sensitive person. How can we maintain all of those qualities, while also taking care of ourselves, not causing harm to our internal state and not experiencing outputs in our behavior or consequences to

our health we don't want? That's right. It's a beautiful conversation, y'all. We know you're gonna enjoy it. So welcome to, Trauma Rewired. The podcast that teaches you about your nervous system, how trauma lives in the body and what you can do to heal. My name is, jennifer Wallace and I'm your go-to, Neurosomatic Intelligence Guide bridging this work of Nervous System Intelligence into your sacred healing spaces with plant medicine.

I'm Elizabeth Christof, founder of, Brain Based Wellness, a virtual platform that teaches you how to train and work with your nervous system to create resilience and behavior change. I'm also the founder of of the, Neurosomatic

Intelligence Coaching Certification. If you also identify as an empath, are hearing yourself in this conversation and you want to start to work with your nervous system to create more capacity and to move out of some of those outputs that you don't want, then join us at, rewiretrial.com for two free weeks of nervous system training. Live on the site with me and Jennifer. I think this conversation will be one that's controversial. You know what I mean? Empathy is a thing.

For sure it is. So many people have such a deep identity with considering themselves as an empath. We hear that from our clients all the time. You see it on social media all the time. I'm an empath, this and that - we're going to question that a little bit today. I feel excited to do so. My deepest states of empathy were also my deepest years of dysregulation. As, Matt said in our narcissism episode - the bugs, the

animals, the trees, the people. I was feeling for everybody with no boundaries Just no boundaries within myself or in the world in general. This is going to be so fun to explore from an, NSI perspective, because empathy is part of science and part of our brain. It has to do with our brain development in places of integration within our brain. It goes far deeper than what we relate to as humans. We are empathic by nature and all

of us have that capability. I think, the broad definition of an empath - just to kind of take an altitude look for a moment- is an individual who feels more empathy than the average human. Empaths are exceptionally sensitive to the emotions and frame of mind of other people. Maybe, as you were talking about, feeling the animals, trees, whatever - very deeply affected. It's important to remember

we all have empathy as humans. It's something that as a species helped us to stay connected, to help protect one another from predators, to connect with one another for intimacy, for reproduction and to keep us as a tribe. which was adaptive as a species. Empathy is an important human

quality, we all have. I think the difference between being a, quote unquote, empath and having empathy, is that an empath - the brain, the body, the nervous system, experience the physiological reaction of the emotions of other people. You see someone experiencing an emotion and inside your body, share the experience. You get a cascade of adrenaline and cortisol, the muscle tension or the increased respiration.

Your body is experiencing the emotions that you witness in other people and you're very reactive to social signals, like reading other people's facial expressions, body posture and vocal tone. There's a ... I almost want to say, a hyper vigilance, about reading those in an interpretation of threat or differences in the way you interpret those signals that have a greater impact on someone who would probably consider themselves an empath. I want to look a little bit more beyond the

traditional signs of being an empath. You have a lot of empathy. Closeness can overwhelm you. You have a good intuition. You often don't do well in crowded spaces. You have a hard time not taking on emotional responsibility for other people. These are kind of the signs of how someone might characterize themselves as an empath. But from a neurosematic perspective, what are we looking at,

Matt? So, this conversation, as far as the brain chemistry and connections, is going to be very similar to narcissism, because we're back to talking about the,insular cortex. Anytime we're talking about self awareness, there's a little pre-frontal cortex involved in how we view ourselves and how we understand our own behavior.

But, as we start to relate to other people, it really comes back to that area of the, anterior insular cortex as reading social cues belonging to the tribe and understanding the emotional standing of everyone who's present in the situation. So, empathy is something that should be hardwired into all of us that our brain is able to do. But, becoming an empath is kind of when that gets ramped up another level and taken to...

If it was a volume knob on the radio, it's taken to a volume that's almost so loud, you can no longer turn it down. You can't ignore it, you can't dampen it, and it's kind of always there with you -often overwhelming. That's why there's difficulty in all the different situations, but primarily it comes from an insular deficit of some kind, just as in the narcissism conversation. It could be something that's conditioned through social interactions or in a household

where someone's raised. But, it could also be triggered by a brain injury, a TBI, concussion, perhaps, by some type of an infection that affects the brain or the meninges. Like a viral infection, meningitis, bacterial infection, that affects those areas, it can

throw those things off. So, several potential causes, but ultimately, it's like a normal sense of empathy taken to the utmost level, where we have a very difficult time dealing with it at that point, because it's kind of overwhelming our own sense of boundaries and our own sense of self at times.

Elizabeth said, because of the way we mirror each other, we will also start to experience - because we create the internal sense of reality that person in front of us is feeling too- that it's something, maybe we've had that shared experience of. Maybe there's a shared neural representation of what's happening in the social

synapse. When I hear about these kind of personality disorders that we don't believe in, that are so talked about, like narcissism, empath, these are both created, if we talk about it from the place of CPTSC, not the brain injury, another way that this is created. But, these are both created by, really inflated states of emotional discord within the primary relationship, cultivated by a nervous systems that had excessive lack of emotional regulation, attunement, and a real

dissonance. Maybe, that was also physical. Just like, Matt was saying, it's like the narcissist - someone who is not shown, modeled or taught emotional regulation by a caregiver and once again, we're back into this emotional place and thread. I think the ability to feel or sense, read others emotions and to experience them, is one way the brain can cope and make the world a

more predictable place. If I'm on uncertain standing with a social circle, but I'm able to actually feel what they're feeling, I can manipulate my own behavior or help regulate them to make the situation safer for myself or for everybody involved. You know, empathy itself is definitely a pro survival type of behavior. I think what you hit on there is a lack of emotional control or a lack of emotional regulation and it becomes overwhelming when

we can't inhibit empathy appropriately. That might sound like an odd thing to say, because so much of our culture kind of puts empathy up on a pedestal and thinks being an empath is such a good thing. Jennifer, you might have something to say about that in a moment, but the idea is, it's not actually always a good

thing. There are times and situations where you need to be able to inhibit your empathy to others, in order to maintain a boundary for yourself or to protect yourself from being taken advantage of or taken for granted, or even from being abused in a situation. Yeah, absolutely. It can also just be a very heavy stress load on a nervous system all of the time. To be so reactive to taking in everybody else's emotional states can lead to a lot of dysregulation, both physically and

emotionally. We know that chronic stress over time is not good for our long term health and at worst, can lead to disease, but it could also lead to burnout, exhaustion, fatigue and the lack of ability to go out and engage socially without experiencing really strong protective outputs. There's so much disruption to the system when we're taking all of this in. I'll never forget when I was taking an applied neurology

course that dealt a lot with the interceptive system. Hearing the instructor talk about empathy as being a big deficit in the interceptive system, that there's a misinterpretation of the signals, an over reaction inside of your own body to that. Saying, you might be an empath and have this interceptive deficit. If you're watching tv and you see somebody get hurt -you flinch or curl up and react," Oh, my gosh, my body is being hurt!" I definitely do that.

There's this weird lack of boundary and misinterpretation of what's going on, how it affects me, and that can lead to prolonged stress over time. It made me think about someone who chronically dissociates and the impact that that has on their interceptive system and why that might lead to more of this issue, with both interceptive awareness and interceptive accuracy, leading to empathic tendencies. The interoception angle is really interesting

as a classic definition of that. It's your perception of the sensations coming from inside your own body. That includes visceral organs, hunger, thirst, fatigue, body temperature, the need to go to the restroom, all of the internal stuff. Often, someone who has an interoceptive issue will talk about that. Their level of interoceptive awareness is either too high or too low, that they're either catching all the signals. If it's too high and they can't ignore them,

they're constantly doing body scans and trying to figure out, "What was that? What was that feeling? What's happening inside of me?". Or, their awareness is too low, and they're not feeling anything. In both cases, their accuracy is lacking and when they do feel something, they don't necessarily know what it means or what it should mean. Their brain goes into a protective survival mode. Colloquially, we might

say they're freaking out about stuff that's not really a problem. When that interoceptive system is lacking in those ways, it just doesn't know how to make heads or tails out of all the sensations they're feeling, and one of the ways it can cope with that deficit, is to start feeling and co-regulating with other people that are around them. They'll tend to lean into the emotional state of co-regulation in order to facilitate the physical co-regulation that can come with that. At first, that's a

great strategy, right? It helps me regulate. I may not understand, at the beginning, that's a little bit co-dependent, because at least it's helping me feel better. The problem is, when I lean on that so heavily, emotional empathy becomes the overwhelming sense coming into my nervous system and it becomes the only way that I know how to regulate. Now we have a problem, because I'm always in need of making sure everyone's emotions are set stable, happy, calm. I may start, you

know, trying to ,"help". We'll use that word, rather than saying trying to, "manipulate". I may try to help other people feel better, feel more regulated and feel more calm. That takes a great toll on me, but I'm doing it in a way so I can regulate from that person. It's like a self fulfilling type of behavior. It can become this self fulfilling deficit where I lean more and more into that empath type of behavior in order to

get what I need from the people around me. Of course, I'm talking about this as if we could take a step back and look at it somewhat objectively. I understand anyone who's going through this or feeling these things is probably not going to describe it that way. Most people who find themselves being very high in empathy think it's a good thing, until it becomes overwhelming and they can't escape it. So, just some perspective there.

I also think there's, a level of, emotional bypassing that's happening for the person because they're not processing their emotions, they're not processing their stories, but they're feeling it through another person's experience. So, this person maybe has constant emotional dysregulation, ups and downs, feeling this like it could be very triggering and very easily activated. At the same time, the emotional stress is building up within that body, because that's not

their emotional work. Something, Elizabeth brought up earlier,that I want to circle back to is, the burnout factor. I think we see this a lot with coaches, which is why NSI is so supportive for us, because there's something called, compassion fatigue. A lot of coaches, therapists, practitioners, guides, healers, will experience compassion fatigue because they are empaths working with their clients who are exposing them to whatever stories,

trauma and narratives. And then that person is totally taking it on without the emotional regulatories skills, and then they are totally burning themselves out. Rewiretrial.com is where you'll go, if you're feeling yourself in this conversation and want to learn the tools to reshape your nervous system, to feel where you end and another begins, you'll experience a new way of being in your body and in the world. Please join us@Rewiredtrial.com for live neuro training on site with me

and Elizabeth. Create sovereign outputs that shift the brain and body into integrated spaces. Rewiretrial.com dot yeah, I think both of. You, as you were talking about that, that there's this deep inability to process and regulate your own emotions. So then having that need come through the co regulation. And I think this is really speaking for myself and also what I see with a lot of clients, a lot of times when that internal world is very chaotic and just to kind of

bring attachment styles into this. As someone who lived a lot of my life in a disorganized attachment style, there was a lot of chaos with social connection, and I did not have the skill to process the big emotions that I had experienced in my life. There was a lot of repressed rage and grief and it was wild and I didn't understand

what was happening inside. Absolutely. I found myself many, many times in relationships then only increasing that stress by not having the ability to set appropriate boundaries, distinguish myself from another person, taking on their emotional experience, being responsible for their emotions, all the way to becoming like a full time caregiver for someone that I was in a relationship with. Of course, it's a great quality to be able to have empathy, but there's something self serving about that,

as well. I needed it for my own sense of safety and regulation. Ultimately, it wasn't sustainable in this way. It's leading to a life that's really harmful for my health over time, because it's too much stress. There has to come a time where I learn to process my emotions, to regulate my emotions, and to self regulate my nervous system so that I don't have to always find it externally. That leads me to a thought that

speaks to what both of you were talking about. It's kind of another angle on where this insular deficit and empath type of behavior comes from. We teach about this thing called, sensory mismatch, which in the literature, you might find terms like, sensory integration disorder or

sensory processing disorder. Those two are more clinically recognized disorders where the sensory systems of the brain and nervous system are having difficulty intaking and integrating different sensory systems, like vision, auditory vestibular, (which is your sense of gravity and equilibrium), interoception, tactile sensation and touch, smell and taste. You've got about seven different senses that are pulled together. I would say sensory mismatch. We utilize that term as a, subclinical

descriptor. So, it's not a disorder. It means the brain is having a difficult time taking in sensory information just to figure out where am I, what's going on around me and am I safe. If I had to really narrow down the seven senses to the three most prevalent, maybe four from the external world, it would be vision, auditory, and vestibular. If we added a fourth, it would be that sense of interoception, what's going on inside the body.

Now, a lot of the sensory processing and sensory integration happens in the back bottom part of the brain. The cerebellum, is a great integrator area, which brings together vision, auditory movement and sensory feelings. It's kind of a gross integration, that happens there just to make sure we can move through the world - like walk without falling over and move our

arm without losing our balance. But, as you take in that sensory information, the whole back part of the brain, everything behind the frontal lobe, is all involved in processing and integrating those sensory inputs. Then, after they're integrated, that information gets passed in the frontal lobe for us to really assign meaning to it and understand what

it is that's happening around us. Where this intersects with empathy, is that if the back of the brain is having so much trouble or it's so challenged to take in sensory information and integrate it together that the brain is spending most of its time and energy just figuring that stuff out, it doesn't have a lot of energy or resources or time to engage in feeling its own emotions. Jennifer talked about emotional bypassing, I think sensory

mismatch is a big component of that. This type of emotional bypassing, Jennifer's talking about, it's not a cognitive choice. It's not on purpose. But, the brain is so busy trying to figure out what's going on. "Am I safe? Is this predictable? Am I in a good place physically, emotionally, socially?". It doesn't have the time, effort and resources available to spin up the insular cortex and experience any true depth of emotion.

When all energy is gone, resources are depleted, because the brain's focus is elsewhere. It's easier to look externally to find out if I'm emotionally good? It does that by sensing the emotions from other people. I found over the years, that my clients, who have the greatest level of sensory mismatch, also have developed the greatest sense of empathy. All right. I can only speak to a correlation, technically speaking. You know, I can't go so far as to say that the sensory mismatch

causes it. But, what I'm describing in this process is generally understood as how the brain works physiologically, anatomically. The areas of the back of the brain that take in sensory information, they have to be given resources and fuel and oxygen first before the front of the brain gets its fuel and resources and oxygen, because the back of the brain is what keeps us alive. So, there is a high correlation between sensory

mismatch and high levels of empathy. I think it is kind of a way to bridge the gap that goes when I can't feel my own emotions. I'm gonna go look for others as a way to figure out what should be going on. Matt, that was a great circling back to, emotional bypassing and putting that into the relative terms of the nervous system and

NSI. I enjoyed that. Yeah, it makes so much sense to me with my own lived experience, because as my nervous system has more capacity and safety, it's only then, I've been able to start using somatic processes and emotional expression processes to feel and express and experience my emotions and have the capacity, the tools and the bandwidth inside of myself to reregulate after that. It stays safe for my body. Until I started working with my nervous system and creating that

capacity, like you said, it's not cognitive. It was repressed. It was below the level of my consciousness and I just couldn't feel and express it. I was thinking, too, of another example when I have had a lot of issues with body dysmorphia and not being able to feel my body map, sensing where I am in space. For a long time, until fairly recently, whenever I was out and about, I would look at other bodies and

be, "Does that look like me? Does that look like me?" Trying externally to figure out and gain that sense of who I am and how I'm doing and where I fall in the spectrum by looking at other people and finding that externally. It's almost like that same thing with the emotional seeking outside of myself when I can't feel it, when I can't experience it. It's like reaching outside of myself for that information that my brain and my nervous system need to understand who I am, where I

am, am I safe? What's going on? Make sense of the world and have prediction. It's not just emotional, right? What you're describing, is that the greater disorder is present with those incoming sensory systems and integration, the more that someone will go externally, to make sure everything is normal. That goes beyond the emotional state. That goes

even to the physical body. Goes, to, " Is my body normal right now?" The other correlation I've seen with my clients, is the more difficulty they have with sensory integration., they go, not only on the emotional empathy, but they also go further outside themselves - they become more... It's like they're looking for internal sensation. Let's put it that way. They tend to lean more into things like energy work and spiritual practices.

I don't mean to be offensive in the way I say this, but the more disordered their internal sense, the farther out. I mean in terms of distance, the farther out their energetic sensitivity will extend. They start to feel energy from other people, from other living objects, from the plants and the insects, as we talked about. But, they'll also extend all the way out to cosmic energies.

They'll start to actually become more sensitized cosmic energies, and start to bring those into their work, into their personal health and self care, into their coaching, into their practice. I think a lot of that starts as a disorder of interoception, or at least a deficit of interoception and integration of these sensory systems -they look externally,l to try to make sure that everything internal, is working as it should be. When I hear it, too, I just hear no

boundaries. When I think of no boundaries, I think of interoceptive system first, in as far the personal system goes. nI'm someone... I opened this up by saying, my most empathic times were my most dysregulated times. I didn't understand what my deficits were and how to work with them. I have moved through this work with NSI for years now, and also cultivated in this time, deeper spiritual practices.

I have boundaries within that, and I can connect and communicate in the other realms and I love it. But, I also have boundaries there. I know where I begin. I know what voice is mine inherently. I don't fall. I just hear a real lack of boundaries with the self. I love that you have developed that and can say that. It's so powerful. When I talk with people who are highly empathetic like this,

we start talking about the nervous system. If I get pushback, it's usually because they think if I start to work on my interoception and I make my nervous system more healthy, I'm going to lose my superpower. That's actually not true. What will happen is ,you'll retain your sensitivity, but you'll be able to tap into it or tune into it when you want to and still maintain a stress sense of self, just as, Jennifer was talking about. I'm much more highly attuned to my environment and to others.

I have my own self awareness. I have my own emotional self regulation. I understand myself very well and I can understand, usually, where the voices are coming from. We'll say whether, that's my own ego, narratives, patterns and stories. Beautiful. Yes. That does extend into cosmic places. That's okay. That's totally fine. It's beautiful you can still know what's your voice. You have a stronger sense

of being pushed and pulled in all these directions. I have clients I work with who are so sensitive, don't have boundaries, pushed and pulled by any kind of energy, whether it's cosmic or another person or an animal or the houseplants. I don't mean that sarcastically. They get pulled off their own kind of grounded self base. I just love what you shared there, Jennifer, that you're regulating your nervous system, learning it and training it.

You're able to maintain all your superpowers and you still have this very strong sense of self. I think that's the goal for someone who has this kind of empathetic side. That's great. Use it for good, but don't lose track of yourself in the process. I think it's incredibly important we can hone in on our gifts and express our gifts in a way that's not damaging to our own health and nervous system. We don't get los,t out there in the world. I wanted to touch on

something. There's a little bit of overlap or a blurring between being an empath and having social anxiety and hyper vigilance in a social setting. Right? A lot of empaths talk about not being able to be in large crowds or being overwhelmed by gatherings. I do think some of that is taking on the emotions of others around you and being very affected by that external system, whether

it's a person or an animal or a plant. Also, I think when we're talking, especially about CPTSD and having this reality learned, with a need to predict the behavior of others for your own safety and survival, to really be attuned to reading people's facial expressions and paying attention to their vocal tone and their posture, to know if you're gonna be okay and safe.

Maaybe, you had a very threatening caregiver and you had to always be aware of their emotional state, try to regulate them or regulate around it, or at least know when you needed to get out of the way and stay safe, that can carry into adulthood. When we're in social situations, that's a lot of stuff to try to be taking in all of the time, to be reading everybody's faces, hearing what everyone is talking about, all

of these things. Then, you combine that with sensory mismatch and it can just lead to a real big overflow of stress in the bucket. That leads to burnout and protective outputs of the nervous system - Pain, migraine, shutdown show up after these kinds of events. I don't have a great follow. I really don't have a great follow either. One thing that did get triggered in me as

a response, is self abandonment. This extreme empathy, this empathic person that we're talking about, is consistently self abandoning in a way that could end up to be pretty harmful in the end, honestly. For people who like to escape to other altered states of consciousness and are also empaths in the way that we're speaking of, there's a massive escapism. I see too, and I think it just comes back to, really knowing ourselves and creating ourselves as the

internal sense of safety and the vessel. The thing that we trust the most, is ourselves. To always be working to cultivate that relationship of deep awareness and intimacy within ourselves, so we can go into wherever we're studying or healing or training or whatever relationships we're going into or that we're in - that we can go into that with autonomy, self awareness and self understanding are really important. Jumping off what, Elizabeth and Jen said.

When you start to think, how can this change or what can be done - if you're looking to change this behavior or these feelings with clients, I've always come back to, let's check on the sensory mismatch first. This sense of empathy and this insular cortex that's affected is one of the areas that's very difficult to address directly. It's very difficult to tune down the insula in this way or to

inhibit this particular part of it. You know, practicing good boundaries is certainly helpful, but that's still kind of a cognitive to insular interaction, which we know from all of our discussion about the nervous system is very challenging. If you're already in threat, already in survival mode, your prefrontal cortex and your cognitive brain kind of shuts

down. So, instead of starting from the front of the brain and working back to the insula, it's usually more helpful in this case, to start in the back of the brain with helping the back of the brain, like the amygdala, the cerebellum, the brainstem, to have a better sense of sensory inputs and how to integrate those inputs first. Iif they can do that more appropriately, already

the whole environment becomes safer and more predictable. The brain spends less time and energy just spinning in loops in that back, non cognitive part of the brain. That's our survival mode, it frees up a lot more resources and a lot more energy for us to be present in the moment, to establish mindfulness, to stay grounded, and to stay regulated. This one is not about, wanting to try to be less empathetic. It's more, that I want to go back, make sure that

my survival brain is taken care of. I actually truly train my brain on how to take in these sensory systems and how to integrate them together. That's what NSI tools can help with. Then, start to establish the boundaries after I feel safe. That's not only someone who has sensory mismatch, but, going back to what Elizabeth said, someone who's experienced this because of interactions with CPTSD. With CPTSD, we have to get the survival brain to feel

safe. That's why we're going to spend a lot of time on inputs, a lot of time on feeling the physical body, connecting body and brain together, and then integrating sensory inputs from the external environment. In both cases of empathy that we've been talking about, to

me, it's still the key. That the more we get the survival brain calmed down and senses integrated, well, then we have the capacity to set the boundaries we want,disengage from that external energy field, be able to feel our own energy,our own emotions and establish that identity of who we really are. I think it's what you were just talking about is so critical, because for so much of my life, I understood boundaries cognitively, and I

would try to do work in that direction. But, I think what we're talking about is, much more reflexive, much more below the level of our consciousness. I'm around someone, and my body responds. I'm around someone and I'm dysregulated, changed, whatever you want to say, by their state. That's not a cognitive decision I'm making. So, how do I tell my body

to enforce that boundary? That really is by working directly with the nervous system to have greater capacity for self regulation, greater ability to process emotions and know I'm okay. To create that sense of safety internally, like we've talked about on here quite a bit, rather than reaching for it externally. I can't figure that out. It just has to come from a different state of being of my nervous system.

I know that for myself and many of the people I work with, it really wasn't until I started working with my survival mind and healing those deficits and getting rid of some of the really big visual deficits and sensory mismatch issues that I could bring into my life in a real way. Like, this is my body, this is where I end and you began, and that just wasn't possible in a state of survival and dysregulation. It's true. And also, I agree.

It's just the nervous system. All of it can change. We change ours with intention, every day. All the time, with purpose. All of what we talk about on this podcast - these protective behaviors that are learned in childhood, are maladaptive in adulthood. So, we have to go back to the operating system. We have to reshape it, and re-train it. We have to teach it another way of being and show it

safety. The best we can do, is to know and understand our nervous systems so that we can experience the peace that we want, the calm and the safety, and that that is the container of ourselves. First, we learn about our bodies to find new ways to respond that are healthy and safe, safe and regulating that emotional body so that we can have healthy, safe relationships and allow others with a really foundational belief that you can have your own emotional experience. It has no, nothing

to do with me, and it has no effect on me whatsoever. You have your own sovereignty. Absolutely. The best place, as you were saying, is to get started by creating some safety inside of yourself and get to know your own nervous system. If you want to join us on, on the site for two free weeks of neuro training to begin to learn the tools that we have used to start to create that safety inside of ourself, you can work with us live and in community. It's at, rewiretrial.com.

This is the foundation that we truly have used to create change in all of these patterns in our life. So join us at, rewiretrial.com