This season we've been taking a deep dive into the overlaps between complex trauma and nervous system health and neurodivergence. And recently we did an episode with an autism expert, Doctor Megan Ann Knaff, and we discussed the intersections of trauma and neurodivergence. And Doctor Neff said, complex trauma is a neurodivergence. And that really struck a chord with me and with Jen. Like it was something we'd been circling around as we were
going through the series and doing the research. And when we heard it, we knew, yeah, that's it, we have to explore this further. And after that episode, Jen reached out to me and said, we need to do an episode on this topic with Matt. And my response was, absolutely, we do. So I'm really excited to be joined again by Matt Bush, founder of Next Level Neuro and one of our lead educators in
the neurosematic intelligence coaching certification. And we're going to be exploring today the nuance, the really interesting relationship between complex trauma, how our brain and our nervous system function, and neurodivergence. Welcome to Trauma Rewired, the podcast that teaches you about your nervous
system, how trauma lives in the body, and what you can do to heal. I'm your co host, Elizabeth Christoph, founder of Brainbase.com Comma, an online community where we use applied neurology and somatics for nervous system health and resilience. And I'm also the founder of the Neurosomatic Intelligence Coaching Certification, an ICF accredited course for therapists and practitioners to bridge the gap between mindset and somatics for real client transformation.
And I'm your co host, Jennifer Wallace, a neurosomatic psychedelic preparation and integration guide. And I'm also an educator at the NSI certification program. And I'm really excited to explore this conversation today. It's one that hits home pretty hard, and I think it's very relevant. And I'm Matt Bush, founder of Next Level Neuro, recurring guest on the excellent podcast trauma Rewired. Happy to be here again, honored as always, and really excited about this
topic. I think a lot of people sometimes have a hesitation when we start to talk about complex trauma and neurodivergence, especially in the same sentence. I'm just excited to kind of lay down a couple foundational things to really understand what is neurodivergence, and why is what we consider the neurotypical world so challenging for so many of us? And a little marketing teaser, I don't think it's for the reasons that we often believe it is. So excited to
unpack this topic. Yeah, yeah, me too. It's a really different way of looking at all of this. I'd like for us to start out with defining some of this stuff from a neurosematic perspective, complex trauma and neurodivergence, so that we can really look at where these identities and these experiences overlap more broadly. And in
our episode on complex trauma impacts brain development. We define complex trauma as when a series of events leaves the brain and the nervous system with an inability to regulate and integrate into the present moment. And we talked about it as the water that we swim in, either during development or maybe during a period of prolonged stress, especially in the context of relationships. And how this begins to
shape our nervous system. How we take in information about the world around us and the world inside of us, and then how that in turn influences how our brain interprets that information and integrates it. And then that drives our outputs that we experience in our life. Our bodies become more sensitive to perceiving threat that can lead to more chronic stress, and long term outputs like dissociation or freeze, or chronic pain, and eventually big health issues
like autoimmune. And all of that really stems from living in that constant state of dysregulation and prolonged stress. And as we've been recently looking at neurodivergence, we see that whether this is caused by developmental experiences or it's just a reflection of natural biodiversity, there are a lot of overlaps. That neurodivergence involves how our nervous system processes the sensory inputs that are coming in all
of the time about the world around us. And then how our brain interprets those inputs. And conditions, like sensory processing disorder, or ADHD, often result in having that hypersensitivity, that sense of threat and stress, and then living in that state can be traumatic, because trauma is something that overwhelms the nervous system beyond its ability to positively adapt to
stress. And so when we have sensory processing issues or neurodivergent ways of interpreting and integrating information, navigating the neurotypical world isn't always optimal for our healthiest expression, for living a life that is really in alignment with health and regulation. And so there's also just this idea of having that experience and it being a
little bit traumatic. Because if we think of trauma as when the intensity of stimulus is such that it overwhelms our nervous system, so that our brain and our body can't adapt to that stressor in a healthy way and in an integrated way, then that means if you're just even born with a brain and a nervous system that process information differently. But you're living in this neurotypical world that is often overwhelming your nervous
system. There's a chronic stress load with that. And so a lot of the outputs can be the same mental and physical health outputs as living in a state of chronic stress during development or I in your life. And so a lot of the physiological effects can end up being really similar. I don't think any of us live any longer in a neurotypical world. I don't think there's anything such as a neurotypical world at this point. And this is more to speak about our modern
conveniences, right? The advent of technology, the amount that it integrates with our lifestyles, the bombardment from media and marketing, the instantaneous communication and instant gratification that we have in our world, is all very convenient, but none of it is congruent with the way that our nervous system is actually wired. It's like technology has far outstripped and outgrown the ability for the human nervous system to deal with it. There is no such thing as
neurotypical world anymore. Put in the technology, the media, messaging, the marketing influence. We're exposed to thousands of marketing messages per day, people telling us to go here and do that. And even at a neurological level, like a sensory input level, is what I'm talking about. Those are based on visual sights, auditory sounds, maybe even things like smell, taste and touch, depending on where you are. But every day
in our world, we're bombarded by all of these sensory inputs. And so it means that our brain and body have to be able to handle, to cope, to integrate, to process these sensory stimuli that are far greater in number and intensity than what our brain is actually wired for. I don't know exactly where I would draw the line, but certainly within the last 40 years is when this transition began to happen,
maybe even earlier than that. I think you can actually go back to 1950s, when the television entered the home as a dividing line between the world that our brain was wired for, versus the technological world that our brain has not yet caught up to, if that makes sense, in getting into kind of talking about complex trauma, as we normally understand that, and neurodivergence, as we use that term colloquially, and as we understand that within the podcast and within the industry,
I think it's important to take a step back and go, are any of us neurotypical at this point? And I don't mean that to diminish those who are really living with neurodiversity not at all. But there's a sense to which any of us who have grown up and developed within this modern lifestyle and culture are going to struggle neurologically with the amount
of sensory input. So maybe let Jen respond. I think she wants to say something here, and then I'll come back and maybe talk about a different definition of neurodivergence maybe, than what we've used before. But I'll pause. Well, I think you bring up something really important just through your example of the television, because it's. Call it a television program. We are being programmed. So it's like we have the programming of a human
where we're all probably neurodivergent to begin with. It's just something that's always existed as biodiversity in nature. And we are nature, so we're biodiverse as well, and so is our nervous system and equals one is something that we talk
on here so much. But, like, the idea of where I'm going with the programming to pick up where you were is that we've been programmed to think that there's this idea of a neurotypical world, that we're all supposed to look a certain way, feel a certain way, be a certain way, express us in a certain way, do business in a certain way. This looks like this, and this looks like this. And it's not been celebrated that we are individual and unique
expressions of life. And so I really think that it is an interesting point that you up just in that little bit of an example. And, you know, I said a moment ago, like, I'm just so happy that we're exploring this conversation, because the three of us have had many conversations already this season, where even in the reframe, I feel like it brings a huge sense of relief, I know, to my body. And I hope it's happening for
you, the listener out there. And, you know, connecting the dots between complex trauma and neurodivergence really felt like a missing link for me and my world. Because fundamentally, we know from our conversations that complex trauma does alter the way the brain and the nervous system function. And so if complex trauma is reshaping the brain's ability to regulate and process sensory information, it makes an individual
more prone to stress and protective responses. And so similarly, neurodivergence affects sensory processing and interpretation. And that's often people are experiencing heightened insensitivity to stimulus and this persistent state of stress in the body. And it's almost like with both having a neurodivergence and having complex trauma, well, I have complex trauma, so I have a neurodivergence. It's that idea of thinking, like, I'm the only person
in the room experiencing this. I am the only person who feels this way, and that's back to the programming that we've been forced on us about, like, the differences between us and how being different is not, like, not that widely accepted, but complex. Drama and neurodivergence both turn back onto the person in a way of, like, there's something wrong with me. I'm the one who's not
performing at this place or being the good. Being the good girl, like, I'm supposed to, or, like, whatever the narratives are for people, and I think we use on here a lot about, like, recognizing the overlaps, but they're not overlaps. You cannot parse these two apart like, they're. They're overlaps because they're the same thing. Yeah, totally agreed. The. I'm glad you brought that up about programming and, like, how we're supposed to, you know, supposed to, in quotes, perceive
ourselves. So I want to go back to neurodivergence really quick and talk about a basic definition. The way I think of neurodivergence and what the research really seems to support is that a neurodivergent brain is one that has either additional or different connections than what you typically find in a textbook. Okay? And I'm not even going to say, then what you typically find in a normal brain, because, as I just said, I don't think that
exists. But what you find in a textbook, what should be there, according to the medical world, is what they define as neurotypical. So neurodivergence just means we have more connections or different connections between different brain areas and regions. And here's the thing. All humans, every human baby ever born, has thousands more neurological connections than it actually needs.
Okay? We're born with tons and tons and tons of connections between different brain areas that are actually going to be pruned away. Just like when you're pruning a tree or a bush and cutting away the parts of the plant that are not necessary or that are kind of running in the wrong direction, our brain prunes itself and dismantles the extra connections that it doesn't find necessary. But when you take a step back and look at that and go, well, how does it know what's necessary?
It's based on what it's exposed to. Exposure creates a activation of those neural pathways. It's going to keep the ones that it uses. It's going to discard the ones that it
doesn't. So if you're being raised in this world that is either programmed with a message, as Jen talked about, or programmed with sensory input, like we were talking about technology and media, or you're constantly being bombarded by sensory inputs as an infant, as a young child, even before birth, I would contend, then certain of those neural pathways are not going to be pruned
away, right? I mean, we're not living in 1875, growing up in a rural town or a small city or something with zero technology. It's a totally different world from how the human brain really developed. So neurodivergence is just an excess of connections, and it can show up and manifest in a lot of different ways, but that's essentially what it boils down to, just an everyday
language, right? And then if complex trauma is our inability for our brain and body to respond appropriately to sensory input, to handle those, to
adapt, that's actually the word that I'm looking for. If complex trauma is our inability to repeatedly adapt to a stressor, of course, this kind of makes sense that complex trauma is a neurodivergence, because we talked in one of our earlier episodes, how growing up with complex trauma changes the way your brain perceives sensory inputs, how it processes threat, how it integrates you into the world and the environment around you, and how it's now kind of living in this state of high
threat, hyper vigilance. So it will actually keep more connections that make it hypervigilant, that make it more aware, that make it perceive more sensory input and stimulus and pick up on things on a sensory level that maybe other people, their brain has decided to discard because it's not that important. But for someone who's repeatedly exposed to stress, their brain, from a survival perspective, is going to go, I can't discard those neural pathways. I need to be aware of that information so
that I can stay safe and stay alive. As it rewires the nervous system over a period of months and years, it creates a. What we're calling a neurodivergent brain because it maintains all of those extra connections that are necessary to stay safe and stay alive. Yeah. One of the things Jen and I talk about a lot on here is like, who is this neurotypical person? Right? We're all running around trying to be something that doesn't exist. And we do live in a modern
world that is not conducive for anyone's nervous system health. But I do also think that there is a difference for some people, all of this is on a spectrum like we always talk about. But for folks with cpts and neurodivergence, the outputs that they experience can be more intense. And it can compound I differently from living in a world that is, it does impact their nervous system differently. Right? So for people born with very different ways of processing sensory
inputs, that can be traumatizing in and of itself. I was listening to an autism advocate, Rhianne Place, speak about this, and she said that one of the biggest lies that autistic people are told is that their responses to things like not being able to regulate themselves when they make a mistake are just because they're autistic and that that's not also a trauma response. And that a lot of autistic.
And that a lot of those reactions that are coupled with autism are actually trauma responses from living in a society that is not fit for the way that their brain and their nervous system function. And then the social implications of that, the shame that comes with it, all of that compounds. And, in fact, research shows that autistic people are four
times more likely to develop PTSD. And yeah, that's partially because their nervous systems are more sensitive to the stress of a traumatic event, but it's also because of the trauma that they experience from society, the shame, the pressure of masking the way that they have to constantly be changing themselves to fit in and get their social safety needs meth.
And place talks about how, because autistic people are developing in a society that actively shames them for their autistic behavior, they have the continuous experience of shame response when they're expressing themselves. And that is cpts. It's ongoing relational trauma during development. So, like, in the example of somebody being so dysregulated by making a mistake, there are a lot of
rules in society that just don't make sense to an autistic person. And when they try to ask for clarification on that, they're shamed, or they're told they're causing trouble because they don't understand these certain social constructs. And then experiencing that over and over and over again really perpetuates the autistic fear of being perceived. And so she talks about this big dysregulation when you make a mistake, is actually a very, quote, unquote, normal response to
a harmful situation. And so, again, there's this strong developmental overlap between complex trauma and neurodivergence. And then some of the outputs that neurodivergent people experience, this extreme dysregulation in certain contexts might not have to do with inherently how they're different. But are trauma responses from growing up in a society where those differences are shamed and that's trauma. There's a bigger threat
load there for some people than others. Even though the world at large is dysregulating for all of us, it does have different impacts for different diagnoses, different identities. Yeah, I think it's really important for us to be aware of the. What we're talking about as outputs either from complex traumas and neurodivergence, or something developmental through the brain. Or however someone finds themselves in this sensory processing place deficit, that all of this really lives on the
spectrum. And I want to recognize to the listeners that from my experience, I know that I fall on a lesser end of the experience of the difficulties of not fitting in. I don't know if that is due to the masking that I was very good at or due to something in my parental primary place where maybe it was how good they could do the life that I couldn't manage. And they kind of picked pieces up for me. And the awareness of that I am different, that I make and the distinguish
of myself. I can also remember there's a few faces from my early experience of school. And I think I've thought of these faces and names actually a couple times since we've started diving into neurodivergence. And I have compared my resourcing to their resourcing. And my. Of course, I don't know the inner experience and worlds of these people, particularly we're talking about 30 years now. But I can see that resourcing was different from a financial, economic
place. There were ways that I would physically be able to mask and make myself under the radar. And that there are on the spectrum of experience, I think about their experience and what it was potentially like to go to the school that I went to say or be in the classes that I was in. And I know that they had a lot, that their experience and their neurodivergence is very different to mine. And I just want to honor
that. And that on this spectrum there is a difference for people and how they are experiencing the world around them. The world that we say is not made for neurodivergence. And that there's intersections between neurodivergence and complex trauma and high ace scores. These intersections present in so many various ways into the tapestry of what it means to be human. Whether these present neurologically, in a postural way, in an emotional way, in a physical manifestation.
I just really want to honor the expression of neurodivergence. And that, wouldn't it be nice if we all lived in a world where we just assumed that people were doing the best that they could versus the mold, the mold that has been just, like, choking us out of our expression so people could not miss out on the magic of what other people offer and the
gifts that we have. And that is a really missed opportunity when we have an expectation that we're all the same inside, built the same, wired the same, or that we all don't have a unique expression to share. And when I think of some of these faces from my childhood past, my heart
really goes to them. Yeah, but I'd love to dive a little bit deeper into what you were talking about, about the way that we're shaped, by the way we take in information and really break it down for people in terms of the inputs that we're experiencing. Because from a neurosomatic perspective, we're always breaking everything down into input, interpretation, and output.
You'll hear us talk about inputs. And inputs are really just all the sensory information that's coming into our nervous system and our body from our different sensory input systems. So we have, like, vision, taste, touch, smell, our extraceptive system telling us about the world around us. We have our intraoceptive system that tells us what's going on inside of our own body, our heart rate, our organ function, our body temperature, and also our felt sense. What do the sensations inside of us
mean, our emotional experience. We have our vestibular system that keeps us upright against gravity, orients us with the horizon, helps us balance, and know where our body is in space. We have our proprioceptive system, our body mapping system that's letting us know, again, where our body is in space and the movements that we're making. And so all of these inputs are coming in all of the time to the nervous system, and our brain is taking in that information and using it to make
predictions and move through the world. And these systems are really how we experience our life every single second. And when these systems aren't bringing in clear, accurate information, there's a high threat level all of the time. Our brain needs that information to feel safe and make predictions and to take actions in any given situation. And also when there's too much of that sensory information coming in is overwhelming to our system. We can't process it. We can't
integrate, like you said, into the present moment. And during development, these systems are shaped by our environment. How safe do I feel exploring the world. How safe do I feel with my primary caregivers? They provide our nervous system with the stimulus that we need for the growth and the development and healthy adaptation as we're young, developing nervous systems. And when that stimulus is absent or when it's overwhelming and the stress levels are high, we can start to
interpret a lot of those signals. With threat training our nervous system to respond with a stress response to these signals, we might lack a lot of experiences that we need for healthy development, especially relational and emotional processing experiences. And so from an NSI perspective, really everything is a skill. And when we don't have these skills trained into our nervous system during development, they can deteriorate. We can get deficits in our
input systems. We can become hyper vigilant. And so it's just a different way of moving through the world based on how we're taking in information all of the time. It is the complex trauma development will change how our brain perceives those sensory inputs, right? So it will become sensitized or highly sensitive to some types of sensory input. And other types it will ignore or not catch because they're not the most important thing happening in the
moment, right? So, for example, someone who grows up in a home that's a stressful environment may learn to perceive the emotional state of others. Like they can read the energy or feel the energy in the room. They can tell by someone's body movement, their nonverbal communication, like body language, facial
expression, what kind of mood they're in. And then they may learn the social skills and the interpersonal skills to manage the relationship and keep that other person calm or laughing or distracted so that whatever else is going on doesn't rise to the surface. Whether that's anger, violence, other things along those lines. But they may miss other types of visual stimulus, auditory stimulus, movement stimulus. Because to be in that situation, in that home or in that room with another person,
it may not feel safe to move. Like if I move, I'm going to be seen. If I move too quickly, I'm going to startle someone or threaten someone. And these are not conscious decisions. That's the most important part to me to reinforce for everyone is that during the developmental stages or during the actual traumatic events that create complex trauma, the choices that we make on how to deal with them are often not cognitive choices. They're not voluntary.
It's a threat response, right? And we know those come from the survival brain. So what eventually happens is that our brain creates its own unique way of understanding the sensory inputs of the world. And I use that word unique because in the research, we can actually see that neurotags or neurosignatures are completely unique to each individual person. This is another reason why I like the question, who
is this neurotypical person? Where do they exist? There may be a range of experiences that is usually defined as neurotypical. Like, maybe it's the middle of the bell curve, but there's always going to be differences, even among that kind of neutral group. And then you certainly have outliers as well. The sensory processing that happens in the brain is
affected by that state. Right. And so we kind of said this earlier, but your brain's going to keep certain pathways going to discard other pathways, and then those can result in changes to the body stress response, which. There's a cascade. Right. The body stress response may change. There's a hormone cascade that happens with adrenaline and cortisol that can also affect all the other hormones in the body. Your circadian hormones, your metabolism hormones, your sexual hormones, all different
hormones can be affected. So there's a chemical change that can affect neurotransmitter creation and receptors in the brain. So we see a chemical change in the brain. And this is where a a lot of the medical industry or the medical psychiatry industry is going, oh, there's a chemical state that's changed. Let's medicate, right? Neurotransmitters are off. Dopamine levels are off. Serotonin levels
are off. We send a Medicaid to either increase or decrease receptor activity for that chemical, and that's going to fix the problem. That's not correct, because what it does not address is how that brain processes sensory information. You can change the neurotransmitter levels with the medications, but it doesn't change the sensory inputs on how they're processed and integrated. So at the end of the day, this sensory input modification, let's call it that,
can manifest in a whole lot of different ways. It could show up as a highly sensitive person. ADHD, add, learning difficulties, social insecurities, and social anxiety, generalized anxiety. Right. But in trauma, rewired in NSI, in next level neuro, we all consider those things, the outputs.
And so I would still hold to the tenet that if we can change the inputs and retrain the brain and nervous system, we still have the opportunity to change the outputs and to work through those different manifestations. I think it's really interesting to think about the unconscious patterning that's happening. Like you said, we're being patterned by like, the sights, the sounds, the feeling of the experience as we are so small. And all of that is happening, like, in our bodies, our
little brains are just starting to form. And so we just had two really interesting conversations about memory and the idea of somatic memory versus cognitive memory. And so much of this unconscious patterning is happening in the somatic part of the body before the brain can even lie down and make sense of, like, what's even going on around here. We're not
laying cognitive memory down until we're almost four. And the body is holding all of this unconscious patterning, and it's helping to shape, really, how the brain is also shaping and the overlap of the outputs that we would experience through this chronic stress. And I think, I want to say, too, I think outputs get a lot of focus and attention. You know, people want to heal their anxiety, their binge eating, their whatever
it is. And oftentimes what's deeper in that is the unconscious of what's been laid down in the body, often before we even know, like, why am I like this? But, like, it's interesting that we're being programmed from zero to seven, yet we have no cognitive memory forming until we're, like, four. And by the time we're seven, we're a go. We've already got it all laid down. And that's because all of that is happening from the perspective of our nervous system,
in our little bodies. I just wanted to say that because I really do find that fascinating. But back to outputs and inputs. You know, with NSI, this is what makes NSI so cool, is that we don't always have to focus on the outputs and the stories or the stories that are attached to the outputs. A lot of times we don't even know what they are anyway. But, you know, if a nervous system is shaped under chronic stress, the posture is going to be effective long term. There could be
deficits in any one of the sensory systems. And by retraining the nervous system, by working with it, we cultivate a language with our bodies. And so we can also, we can work to get more accurate, clear inputs and that clear integration and maybe even get a deeper understanding of, like, what am I engaging in? Like, what am I engaging in that is a positive stimulus for me? What am I engaging in that I don't think is actually really good for me, even though it could be touted as
positive, if that makes any sense. I really don't know. What you said is really important about, you know, what is good for me, what's not, what's supposedly good for me, that's actually nothing so important. I tell my clients, like, if you could wave a magic wand, what do you think you need to start doing and stop doing? No judgment, no boundaries on this. Like, everything going on in your life, what do you need to stop? This is draining your energy or
causing more stress and what might you want to start? But also we want to remember every self care practice, every healing treatment, every modality that we engage in has a cost of energy, of fuel, of brain integration, you know, and how is that going to be interpreted? So even things that are supposedly going to be great for us, if we overdose them, we may not get a great response. I have to come to terms with this a lot in my own healing and self care
practice. I mean, it's an ask of the nervous system energetically, and you might not have the fuel for everything that you want to engage in. And you'll just burn yourself out in your healing practice, just like you will in any modality. And I think it happens a lot, even to maybe for listeners with this podcast. Like, we talk a lot about some really deep, big stuff, right? Like we, we really bring people into deep spaces of
understanding and learning and reframing. And for you, the listener, this could even start to become a kind of overwhelming experience. And then, like, what kind of tools do you have then to kind of bring you back into this conversation? So you can just take in the information from a
really safe space, right? Like, just taking all of this and even me listening to the two of you and being here in this moment, like, it's a lot of stimulus coming through, especially when it's something that I really identify with and have struggled with up until basically now in these recent, this very recent time, right? And so it's really powerful to sense your body from the inside out and to train your sensory input system so that you can rewire your subconscious mind.
Like, rewire for the times that you weren't present in your body and rewire for the unconscious times, and you didn't even have a choice in the belief that's put into your body in this moment and the threat that you may have been wired for. Like you've said before in a podcast, like, our developmental time is a training ground for the way that we are going to survive. And, gosh, like, the three of us have found that just gets very outdated at
some point. And what I love about NSI is, like, not only can I work all my sensory input systems, but I can add a prefrontal cortex load I can intentionally fire into my executive functioning. I can make that safe as well as calm down some of the experiences. Being a highly sensitive person and being able to regulate, but not lose the sensitivity at the same time, it's very nuanced, each
individual, it really is. And the dosing component there is so important and something that I have also gone through in my own healing and see with my clients so much that desire to, like, I want to fix this stuff, I want to be different. And then coming at our healing practices with that same dysregulation and threat response and intensity that can
just perpetuate these cycles. And a lot of that also has to do with, you know, there's a component of the sensory information coming in, and then there's also a component of how our, our brain interprets that information. Right? And am I really training myself to start creating safety with some of this work? Is my amygdala still reacting to it? Am I being moved into stress or trauma response? And that takes fuel and activation away from my higher order thinking systems puts me more into my
survival mind. And then I'm cycling through these protective responses, maybe fight or flight, but maybe dissociation or freeze or flopping and really depleting my system. And then we have talked a lot on here about the ancillar cortex and the interceptive system and interpreting all of these sensations that come in from the body. Like, not only am I able to hear, feel those sensations, but to interpret them accurately. And it's that accurate interpretation that
helps me stay grounded and in the present moment. Or am I getting, like, thrust into a different reality because the sensory signals are connected to threat, because of that developmental training ground, is it going to bring up a neurotag of an emotional flashback? And that's really, that interpretation piece is so key to being able to stay present and to also being able to have positive adaptation from the work that we're doing.
And again, when we're talking about neurodivergence, some of that difference in interpretation doesn't always have to come from a past experience. It can be natural biodiversity in the way that we process information. And also, too, like you were saying, Matt, like, the amount of information that's coming in is overwhelming for all of us. And when we're a highly sensitive person or we have heightened sensitivities, there's something like,
beautiful about that, right? It can be an asset, it can be a gift, but it can also lead to a really heavy stress load, especially when we're in this modern world. With all of the
technology that we have. And it really becomes this kind of navigating between how do I stay tapped in to the way that I think differently, that helps me connect all kinds of different dots and feel more and have deep relationships and have a very beautiful life experience and not be consistently overwhelming my system moving into these protective responses and maybe facing some health outcomes that we don't want from living in that state of chronic stress. Yeah, definitely agreed that it's
always up for interpretation. Like, there's no getting around that, but in a lot of ways, that's actually the place that we want to focus. So just acknowledging what you both have said on trauma rewired and an NSI, we talk a lot about sensory inputs and retraining, how we receive sensory inputs. Yes. And the actual point of working on sensory inputs is to change the interpretation. Okay.
Like, if you are a highly sensitive person or if you're neurodivergent, or if you have adhd now that you're an adult, there's some wiggle room in the neural pathways that are there, but you're probably not going to rewire your whole brain. Like you're going back through those developmental stages of childhood. You're not going to change the inputs to that degree. So what we're left with now that we're adults is, can I change the interpretation? Right? Can
I have enough gradual exposure? And I'm using these words on purpose with gradual exposure, baby steps of change and enough experiences that do not induce threat that my brain actually learns how to reinterpret rather than being triggered to go, okay, I think I can handle this. Right? So the interpretation is reshaped through gradual exposure to the stimulus in a way that is not threatening baby steps of testing new
inputs and being in new situations. And basically what we want is to, when we talk about dosage, we want to expose to the input in such a way that we leave early enough that we don't have a big threat response. And then add movement to the mix of all different types. Doesn't have to be athletic movement per se, but all different types of body
movement. Integrating visual, vestibular, somatosensation, proprioception, breathing, getting all of those systems working on the same page is what actually helps the brain to change its interpretation. I really believe that it's natural for a human to be sensitive to the environment, to people, to sounds, to bright things, to like. I think that's just innate part of being a human in this world. And so it's what we're really talking
about is when that dial gets really turned up. And then it almost becomes finely tuned even to pick up the subtle environmental cues. And like we're saying, we can turn it down. It's a huge gift, but it can also be a terrible burden, especially like, we talk about the insular cortex on here a lot, and the insular cortex, it processes the these internal sensations, and it might become overwhelmed through it, and it can
lead to a really hyperactive stress response. And over time, this can also lead to burnout, as the nervous system is continuously taxed internally. And dissociation, which we love to talk about on this podcast, it can occur as a protective mechanism, distancing the person from the overwhelming sensory input, an emotional experience. And the dissociation makes it difficult for people to stay present and connected to a current moment, to their bodies.
And then mirroring the experiences of those with complex trauma. We learn to be, we are shaped by mirroring the very waters that someone else is swimming in, in their own complex trauma. So, as we're talking about all of this, and as we've been exploring it thought a lot, we couldn't dive really deep into issues. And, like, why? Why does it matter to think about all of this? You know, whether the issues came from my developmental
trauma, or maybe it's just inherent to who I am. It's the way I was born. It's a natural expression that's unique to me. Like, does it even matter where it's coming from? The outputs might be the same, but it has been really powerful for me in some ways, to start to explore neurodivergence and to see my complex trauma as a form of neurodivergence. Because when I've been looking at natural biodiversity and neurodivergence, it's easy for me to start to shift and see
the beauty of all of that. Like, to understand that nature is meant to be diverse, ecosystems are diverse environments, and that is a healthy, functioning
ecosystem. And so I can recognize with relative ease that there are assets that come from the way that my brain functions differently, the way I can see patterns and things, my creativity in terms of ideas and organizing information, I can value that about myself and have more self compassion and really give myself some slack for the ways that I don't function as typically in the world. Like the fact that I can't wear matching socks ever.
It's a small price pay for some of the other gifts. And so when I start to reframe some of the ways that I'm different because of my complex trauma. It starts to give me some gratitude for the ways that it's made me a little bit different. See how my sensitivities make me a good practitioner or open my eyes to different things about the world,
questioning the paradigms that we live in. And, you know, I'm not saying that I'm grateful for the abuse or that anyone should be, but it does feel like it allows me to lean into the edges more of post traumatic growth and to be able to recognize some deep value from these experiences in the way that they made me unique. I think there's always, well, first of all, there's a lot of beauty in what you said
and a lot of wisdom in what you said. And I think there's always a choice of how we're going to respond to what has happened in the past, right? Can't change what happened in the past, but we can change how we're going to respond to it. And so moving from that and going, yeah, I can see all of these gifts. Very beautiful response. I do want to mention one thing in this. Why does it matter in
reframing? Because often people will ask, well, if I start to retrain my nervous system or change my interpretations and rewire these inputs, they basically are kind of going to ask the question like, am I going to lose my superpower? Am I going to lose this diversity? Am I going to lose this artistry and this beauty that I have, even though it's different? Yes, but is it going to go away? And I always tell them, no, you're not going to lose those things because your brain has invested in those.
It's using them regularly to keep you safe, to keep you highly functioning. It's not going to give up its survival pathway that it's crafted. What training the nervous system is going to do is to maybe turn down the volume knob a little bit on the inputs that are overwhelming or on the interpretation process that's keeping us stuck in threat. So we want to get rid of
the parts that are not helpful. And it actually allows the superpower to become stronger and used more appropriately to share with the world rather than kind of diving into our cocoon and using it as a coping mechanism. You know, when I think of, like, does it matter? Like, why does it matter? For me, part of why it matters is because I had such a harsh inner critic voice that really made me question myself. And it made me. It said things to me like,
you're different. And I believed it in a way that me being different was a negative way of viewing myself. And I know now, through regulation and through, I mean, I've explored my healing in so many deep ways, that my difference is a gift. I embrace what makes me different. And I can embrace my sensitivity now because. Because I know that I am. That sensitivity is woven into every fabric layer of my being. And it makes me that my high level attunement, can it be a burden? Sure.
When I don't have boundaries, when I didn't used to know where I ended and somebody else began, when I used to identify with, like, being an empath in the way that we had our podcast episode before, and like, talking about, like, being extra highly sensitive person, like, it was off the charts, it was overwhelming, and it was really burdening for me.
And I used to use a lot of poor coping mechanisms to make up for the overwhelm, like engaging in alcohol a lot, for the social anxiety that came with all of the sensory overload. And so it really matters because this is the internal health that I swim in. This is this emotional place, this place of belief. This is the undercurrent of my body. And I want this body, this vessel, to be a place of nurturing, of safety, of rest,
and of play. Play is something that a lot of us are rewiring for in our lives, and learning how to rest and experience joy in really new ways. And I think play is a way that activates joy, whether that play could be artistic or through movement and however the expression wants to come through. And like Matt said, I'm never going to be able to go back to the beginning and totally rewire,
and like, that's not going to happen. But it's what has been made possible through my nervous system is something, an experience in my body that I could have never imagined. Because now it's like I can silence the survival and step into new ways that really help me thrive as a human being, that make me feel competent and strong and capable and trusting in myself, that, yeah, I'm kind of different, and isn't that really cool for me? And to be able to experience other people in their differences
is to accept that I am different from them. And so it does matter. Well, that what Jen just said is what I want to close with as well, is that your diversity and your superpower is not in jeopardy. By doing neuro training, like Jen talked about, her empathy, and having done neuro training, I can guarantee you she's not lost that sense of empathy, but it's tuned to be able to utilize it when she wants to and to be able to downregulate
it when she wants to. And so she has more flexibility, more agility in life to be able to do the things she wants to kind of avoid the situations where it would be more challenging and to handle it all in a more appropriate
way that's more healthy. And that's really the goal. I think the other really important piece of why we would want to understand this about ourselves is when we're really looking at this model of input, interpretation, output, and allowing ourselves to recognize where there are outputs in our life that we don't want. Right. There are things, the burnout, the depression, the mental health outputs
that we do want to make a change in. And when we know ourselves at this deep level, it allows us to start actually making progress on changing some of those outputs in a different way, rather than trying to cognitively override them. But really going back and looking at this sensory input interpretation, what's coming before the output, and get out of that loop of just cognitively trying to push ourselves into a different way of being so that we don't have to experience those outputs.
And it is the way that all three of us here have experienced being able to get out of those states of chronic stress, of panic, of flight, of big bursts of emotional reactivity or overreaction. And allowing ourselves to be able to process emotions. And to address all of this, we have to start to provide the system with appropriate stimulus and to give the brain accurate information or to inhibit some sensory where it's overwhelmed and get out of those chronic stress states.
I think it's important so that we can actually start to make some changes in the outputs that we don't want while we're keeping our gifts. Absolutely. And I mean, we've talked about so much like it'd be hard to know what's really presenting if with complex trauma there's like and neurodivergence, there's no
clear distinguishing between the two and the outputs. If my ADHD that could have me in outputs of hyperactivity or difficulty focusing, leading me to frustration and stress can also overlap with trauma responses in my body that is constantly on high alert and constantly hyper vigilant and interpreting stimulus as threats and maybe pushing me into a fight or fight response. And then like. Similarly, my outputs related to depression or
anxiety often intersect with those from ADHD and trauma. So with depression I might experience fatigue, brain fog and lack of motivation, which can also be seen in ADHD. And then trauma responses, anxiety that could look like panic attacks, muscle tension and hypervigilance. That's common in both ADHD and trauma. These overlapping outputs indicate that the root cause is often sensory processing
issues. Whether due to neurodivergence or trauma, my brain struggles to process sensory information accurately, and that leads to heightened stress and protective responses. Recognizing these overlaps, it just really helps me understand my thresholds. It helps me understand that my outputs are not isolated issues, but interconnected responses to sensory processing challenges. And that lifts a huge weight off of my body.
Yeah, absolutely. And we're doing a whole series on this on brain based on working with the different sensory input systems, especially for people who identify as neurodivergent. So if you want to start to explore this and re pattern some of the ways that your system takes in information to start to make tangible change in the outputs, then join us@rewiretrial.com you can get two free weeks to join us on site live and start to work with your nervous system. Yep, we'll see you there and see you
next time. Thank you all so much. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and should not be consistent medical or psychological advice. We often discuss lived experiences through traumatic events and sensitive topics that deal with complex developmental and systemic trauma that may be unsettling for some listeners. This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.
If you are in the United States and you or someone you know is struggling with their mental health and is in immediate danger, please call 911. For specific services relating to mental health, please see the full disclaimer in the show. Notes.