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Paul Comfort: Thanks for being with us today on Transit Unplugged, the world's leading transit executive podcast. And today I'm excited to have with us as our guest, professor Neils van Ort. Uh, Neils is an associate professor of public transport and shared mobility at Deth University of Technology in the Netherlands.
Paul Comfort: And as co-director of the Smart Public Transport Lab, he's been involved in public transport projects and research for over 20 years in both academia and practice. Before his full-time position at the University of Indel, he worked as a strategic transit planner and a senior consultant. He's always been involved in research and practice.
Paul Comfort: Uh, I got to meet him, uh, in person recently when I was in Melbourne and he was doing a project along with Monash University, Dr. Graham Curry, and they had a game going on there with. Uh, transit planners and students will tell you about that game on today's podcast. It's fantastic. You can see it in that episode of Transit Unplugged tv, [00:01:00] but what we focus on today is light rail and, and bus rapid transit.
Paul Comfort: He wrote some books on this subject. Uh, we talk about the lessons we've learned. Where does light rail work better? Where does bus rapid transit work better? And some Dutch lessons that are integration with, um, shared bicycles and micro mobility and what we look forward next in the public transportation industry.
Paul Comfort: It's a great interview with Dr. Neils van Art. I hope you enjoy it.
Neils van Ort from the Netherlands is with us today. Neil, thanks for being with us on the show.
Niels Van Oort: Yeah, it's great. Thanks for having me here, apple.
Paul Comfort: We were together in, Melbourne actually a few months ago, uh, before the end of 2024, where I met you for the first time meals and you were, we were doing a big event.
Paul Comfort: Tell us what we were doing there with the game and all that. What was going on? I.
Niels Van Oort: Yeah, we were in Indeed in Melbourne, uh, with Professor Graham Curry, and we were actually, um, uh, giving a training course for the, uh, training [00:02:00] course in public transport for, uh, young professionals and, and researchers. And, uh, when we met, we were actually doing this, uh, serious game, finding the optimal mix, which is, uh, a game we developed, uh, over the last years.
Niels Van Oort: to, to, to enable people in a, in a playful way to deal actually with serious issues, uh, namely transportation, planning to fight the optimal mix, what modes do contribute to which specific societal, uh, goals like effective mobility, but also the environment equity. All these, uh, these goals we are discussing, uh, all day about.
Niels Van Oort: And in this card game. we give the players the, the challenge actually to find the optimal mix of modes. We have, of course, classic modes, bus, ram, metro, uh, cars, bicycles. But we also see a lot of new modes, uh, arriving on our streets, like the, uh, shared micro mobility, uh, transport network companies on the mount services, et cetera.
Niels Van Oort: So it's quite a puzzle actually to match those, those modes to our societal goals. And that's what this game is actually, uh, [00:03:00] trying to, uh, to show and to learners.
Paul Comfort: I should get that from my class. You know, I'm, uh, you and I are both teaching. I think you do more than I do, but I'm teaching one class at Villanova University outside of Philadelphia.
Paul Comfort: Uh, it's, uh, to environmental engineering CL students who are, uh, master's level students. And that's the homework I'm giving them each week. And that's what our term paper is on. It's about develop the proper mix of modes for a specific city and tell us why and how much it would cost the feasibility.
Paul Comfort: That sounds like a game they could play and kind of come up with that. Huh?
Niels Van Oort: You are very welcome to, uh, to host the game yourself. Uh, Paul, actually, what we now, uh, are finalizing is to enable, teachers and professionals all over the world to host their own session. So also you are very, uh, invited, uh, Paul, uh, in the show notes, uh, we'll put the link to our website where you can actually order the cards and all.
Niels Van Oort: Also get the instructions and, um, uh, videos to show how to host a game. And then I hope the game will be played, uh, all over the world with all these, uh, new young people entering the world of [00:04:00] public transport and transport.
Paul Comfort: You and I were just talking about that before we came on, uh, the air here. And that is, both of us are very interested in, you know, encouraging young people in their twenties who are just in college, maybe still are just coming out to consider the public transportation, , sector for their employment.
Paul Comfort: Talk about that and why that's so important. I.
Niels Van Oort: Yeah, I think, uh, that's a, that's a very good point, and it's also one of my motivations why I am, , excited about teaching. I, I teach at, uh, Del University, both at the undergraduate and also at the graduate level. And also, as I said, as we met in Melbourne, we provided trainings for young professionals and, .
Niels Van Oort: Researchers. And I think we have, , we have a great, uh, sector as public transport. , but we also face many challenges, I think, , and I, and we need new, young, bright people actually to, to help us deal with these challenges. , and also to make use of all the new developments, the technology, , technical developments like ai, like autonomous vehicles, all these new, , opportunities.
Niels Van Oort: We need new [00:05:00] bright people actually to implement. To, uh, to help us to optimize public transport being a serious mode to consider in our, , choice behavior.
Paul Comfort: Yeah. Now you, where you, let's talk about where you live and where you work and all that. Tell us about the Netherlands, what city you're at, what type of public transportation you have there.
Paul Comfort: I've got some friends, , that have been to the Netherlands recently, and they told me the transportation system in Amsterdam was just fantastic. Uh, Valerie Nielsen, who heads up, uh, the Transportation Planning Agency in, , west Palm Beach and her husband, Jaime Quadra. Uh, they told me it was just fantastic.
Paul Comfort: So talk to me about it.
Niels Van Oort: Yes. Yeah, it's nice to hear that people are excited about our transit systems. , I think in an, in an inter international, in an international benchmark, we're doing quite well. I think we have high frequent, , systems. You can almost reach every place in the Netherlands by, by public transport, and also are, I think.
Niels Van Oort: Most people know we are a, a cycling paradise. There's bicycles all over the place. , and [00:06:00] especially the connection of, of cycling for the short distances and, and public transport for the long distance, , enables everyone to, , to visit every place. Uh, independent of a cars. Of course, there's plenty of cars as well.
, it's interesting that you say that you like the public transport in, in the Netherlands, at least your, your friend was, uh, because many people in the Netherlands like to complain about our, uh, level of service, to be honest. , and I must say that especially after Covid, there's some reasons to complain.
Niels Van Oort: We are, uh, challenged by. , lack of, of passengers, lack of funds, and also labor shortage is a serious issue. , however, I think in an international benchmark, we have a very high level public transport, uh, uh, service. Uh, in the Netherlands in our cities, we have a national train network operating very high, frequent and fast.
Niels Van Oort: We have local, , tra and metros and buses, and we have regional long distance buses as well. And it's all well connected to our favorite mode, maybe being the bicycle. Which, uh, I think should be the best friend of every public PU system providing a smooth LA [00:07:00] first and last mile, , opportunities.
Paul Comfort: That's great and place where the Netherlands is, uh, for people in America who sometimes are geographically challenged, you know, you're, you're not part of the, uh, the Nordic states of Sweden, Finland, or whatever up
Niels Van Oort: there, right?
Niels Van Oort: No, no, that's true. That's, uh. That's, that's for our, in our perspective, quite far away. But I, I, I am aware that, uh, distances are a bit, uh, different in perspective in the Netherlands than, than in your country. Uh, Paul, no worries. We are a small country. We're also a flat country, by the way. That's also why cycling is very convenient.
Paul Comfort: Ah, okay.
Niels Van Oort: Um, but, uh, our capital is Amsterdam, which I think , is a famous place and a nice place, , to go from. And the Netherlands is about, um, 70 million people relocated. , two neighboring countries, Germany, on the east, , and Belgium. , on the south I'm in the Hague, which is the third, uh, biggest city of our country.
Niels Van Oort: And it's actually the place where our king and queen, , live and also the Parliament is, is located in, uh, in our city. And isn't that where the, like the world court or something is in the Hague? Yes, there are [00:08:00] the international courts, all that kind of things are in, uh, located in the Hague. Indeed.
Paul Comfort: That's interesting.
Paul Comfort: Is that where all the Nazi trials took place and all that stuff afterwards or was that, that was Nuremberg, right? That was a different place. It
Niels Van Oort: wasn't, it was in, it was in Germany. Indeed. Yeah. Yeah. There will be the nato, uh, summit will be here soon in, in June. Okay. Is that where NATO headquarters is? Not sure about the headquarters.
Niels Van Oort: Oh, okay. But at least the summit will be here, uh, soon. Um, so that will be quite an operation with all the, uh, world leaders joining. And all the roads will be closed, all police will be here. So you're gonna love that. We'll
Paul Comfort: see what will happen, uh, in June. Yeah. That's great. Well, listen, um, that's, that's very interesting about your country and, and what language do you speak there, by the way?
Paul Comfort: Is it Dutch?
Niels Van Oort: Yes, it's Dutch and
Paul Comfort: uh, that's a nice, so say something to me in Dutch. What should I, what would you say? Yeah, we're talking in the afternoon my time. Evening your time. You're six hours ahead of us on the east coast, right? So Indeed. Yeah.
Niels Van Oort: So it's evening here, but uh, I would like to wish you a good afternoon so.[00:09:00]
Niels Van Oort: We how to make it.
Paul Comfort: What's that mean? How are you doing? Very good. All right, great. Well, I'm doing great. , we're gonna take a quick break and when we come right back, I'm gonna talk to you about two books you've written. , one on light rail and one on bus. Rapid Transit, which is fast taking hold here in the United States right after this word.
Mentorship
Paul Comfort: Great to have with us on the Transit Unplugged podcast today, Rebecca Klein and Keith Scott, some of the best communicators I know, and today they're going to share with us how to approach mentorship. Thank you both for being on the program today.
Rebecca Klein & Keith Scott: Thank you.
Paul Comfort: Yeah, I've got a good friend who is on the podcast today who is focused on mentorship.
Paul Comfort: Mentorship and kindness and leadership. His name is Mike Bismeyer and he always is talking about the importance of mentorship. How important is that in the work, in the workplace these days?
Rebecca Klein & Keith Scott: Mentorship and paying it forward is everything. Every single one of us can probably think back to that one person who [00:10:00] spoke up for us, who made an introduction or a connection that got us where we are today. And mentorship is It's important because the number of people that are leaving the workforce that have amazing skills and institutional knowledge are going away.
Rebecca Klein & Keith Scott: It's more crucial now than ever to make that type of connection and unfortunately a lot of folks starting out And through COVID, lost a lot of those skills to communicate and ask those questions. And so it's a big issue and it's really important to crank up mentorship again in America because it's falling apart a little bit.
Paul Comfort: And how do you get started? What do you do? How do you lead into this?
Rebecca Klein & Keith Scott: As a mentor, listen. Look out for people who are working hard, have leadership potential, but aren't sure where to go. Ask them questions, listen to their story, and then figure out if there might be a role for you to mentor them. If you're the mentee, if you want advice from someone. [00:11:00] The biggest step is the one people don't do.
Rebecca Klein & Keith Scott: Ask. A lot of people would be happy to be your mentor. But if you don't ask, you lose the opportunity. Also, this whole role of mentor, mentorship, a lot of times the mentors, they preach. They don't share, and they dictate, and nobody wants to be told what to do. What people want is to hear about what happened, and then take that information, pick what's useful, and throw away the rest.
Rebecca Klein & Keith Scott: But when you preach, I mean, I don't know anybody that likes to be preached to.
Paul Comfort: That's good, yeah. I, uh, I grew up in church and my dad was the preacher. So, I remember him snapping his fingers when I was looking through the hymnal in the back. Paul, come to the front! I didn't like being called out during the sermon, that's for sure. So, uh, but what's the best way, like, so let's say, um, um, Uh, I've had this happen to me multiple times, even just recently.
Paul Comfort: Somebody said, would you be my mentor? Once in a while, I'll say yes, even [00:12:00] though I don't have a ton of time, you know, I'm happy to have a couple of meetings with you. So I got it, right? You lead with listening. You share, don't preach. Um, what kind of questions should I be asking of the, of the mentee or what questions should they be asking of me as the mentor?
Rebecca Klein & Keith Scott: In either direction, the questions need to be open ended. Some of the best questions out there do not have a question mark. Tell me more about, and when you lead with curiosity, with a childlike curiosity, people will share a lot more. And asking people, what's your next step? Dreaming big. What's happening 5, 10, 15 years down the line?
Rebecca Klein & Keith Scott: And then, being honest, what's holding you back? If this is what you want to do, why aren't you doing it? And what excuses are you giving yourself, or are you just scared to take that leap?
Paul Comfort: That's interesting. And then what kind of feedback should you give?
Rebecca Klein & Keith Scott: Never sugarcoat. The worst thing you can do if you're mentoring somebody, let's say they send you their resume, and you know it's not great, but you don't have [00:13:00] time to give them some coaching, never sugarcoat and say, oh, this looks fine, this looks great. Even if you don't have time to offer some suggestions, suggest some resources. The problem is once you sugarcoat and that person gets a sense that they're better than they really are, then they will end up in a position that they can't really do. And then you have a problem. You've just advanced somebody where they really shouldn't be.
Paul Comfort: That's interesting. And then, I guess, you know, everyone's busy, uh, but you've got to be accessible, right?
Rebecca Klein & Keith Scott: You do. Once you make the offer to be someone's mentor, set the expectation of what that looks like. If the mentee starts texting you all day, every day, calling you constantly, let them know the plan. Create check ins, and as long as both people understand what the mentorship looks like, it will go well. And don't set up the times for them. Make them do it and send them to you. Because then they take ownership, and we've learned this the hard way. You set up the times and then they're a no show. They [00:14:00] don't follow up. That's their fault.
Paul Comfort: That's great. Well, Rebecca Klein, Keith Scott, thank you so much for sharing with us the importance and the how to, some practical steps on mentorship.
Rebecca Klein & Keith Scott: Thank you.
All right, we're back. And I'm with Neil Van Ort, who is a professor and a global thinker on public transportation. And we're talking today about, , his
Paul Comfort: books that he wrote, and, uh, one is on LRT, light Rail Transit Systems First edition. , and then you have one on bus Rapid Transit.
Paul Comfort: Talk to us about the experience of the transport planner and operator, and consultant and researcher in those fields.
Niels Van Oort: Yes. Yeah. Thanks for that. Indeed. Yeah. In, in 2018, we wrote a book about, uh, light rail transit. We'll put the link in the, in the show notes, , if people are interested, published by, uh, by Elsevier Light Rail Transit Systems.
Niels Van Oort: , together with, uh, hope from the Bell, professor, hope from the Bell, and, uh, bad Bookman. And also with, uh, professor Rob van, the Bell. We recently, last summer, we published a book about, uh, buses, BRT and other modes of, of buses. , it's [00:15:00] still in Dutch only. Sorry for that. Uh, Paul, but we actually are working on a, um, on an English version because, , we think that, uh, boat, light rail, but also the bus, uh, deserves more attention in, in transit planning.
Niels Van Oort: , and especially the bus, I think is a bit underappreciated. , there's a lot of potential, I would say, in these high level, , bus services, like bus rapid transit and also like we, um, call it in the, in, in Europe, uh, buses with high level of service, which is a sort of BOT light, you could say. , there was one of the motivations actually to, , to write a book about it.
Niels Van Oort: And it's not about, . Promoting buses. It's not about promoting light drill, , it's about finding the best mix of modes, fitting to the needs of your city to the societal objectives and also to the needs of the passengers and. Often that's a mix of modes. Um, but sometimes, uh, A BOT fits better to your city or a light rail fits better to your city.
Niels Van Oort: , and actually we want to help that discussion by, by showing, uh, what are the, what are the, the pros [00:16:00] and the cons, what are the challenges and, and, uh, what are the lessons learned from all these great projects all over the world, , with light rail and also bus Rapid transit.
Paul Comfort: Yeah, bus rapid transit's really, .
Paul Comfort: I mean, I, you hear about things like this in Latin America here, you know, Cartiva and other places where they have Yes. I went down to Sao Paulo last year for an episode of our show and got to see it there in, in action, but it really is taking hold here in the us. I was just out in, . Tucson, Arizona and in Las Vegas, Nevada, and both cities are building BRT lines.
Paul Comfort: I was in, other cities this year. They're all working on high capacity, high frequency bus service. And as I mentioned, we feature U Sum on our Melbourne episode of the TV show and the game and all that we did there. But, uh, when I was the next episode, which was, , our largest actually, um, a very, very highly watched, uh, episode from Brisbane.
Paul Comfort: They've got an amazing metro system They're bringing on online, kind of preparing for the Olympics that are coming here in 2032. And it's a BRT line Neils, but it looks like it's, uh, it [00:17:00] looks like it's light rail. I mean, the vehicles are fantastic with wheel covers and high roofs, and. I mean, you, you wouldn't know that it wasn't on rail if you were just a net casual observer.
Niels Van Oort: Yeah. That's, that's, that's an amazing example. Uh, indeed and, and, and indeed. I was, uh, two years ago, I was in, Bogota, in, in Columbia. I was visiting, uh, major Lopez, uh, back at the days. Also was a great opportunity to, , to see the trans millennial system, uh, the BOT system, uh, which is one of the founding fathers together with Tiba, obviously in, in Brazil.
Niels Van Oort: . And it's amazing. And to see that, that, , type of BOT, um, but it's also completely different from other bts all over the world. , the capacity, uh, the intensity, the intensity, the frequencies of the buses. so especially in our European context, we, we tend to talk more about buses with high level of service, which are not like the metro capacity, but more like a trem.
Niels Van Oort: So it's more a comparison between really. Between light drill, exactly as you were saying. I think that in general, politicians and also, [00:18:00] uh, users are a bit more fond of, of, of real light drill vehicles than buses. But we see a huge improvement actually in the bus industry. , the emissions are, reduced.
Niels Van Oort: We have zero remission operations now. The look and feel of the buses has changed and there's so much. Potential actually in the bus, which we often do not use. For the reason that we think that the bus is always minor towards light rail. But I think quality wise, if you, I. Put serious effort and attention and also funding, by the way, into bus services, you can actually achieve a very high level of, uh, of quality.
Niels Van Oort: And I think that's why I'm so excited about light rail and BRT. If we wanna make public transport a serious choice for passengers, a serious alternative to the car, we need high level of quality. With just low quality services. , no one will change modes. Right. From car to bus to public hospital, isn't it?
Paul Comfort: And, and what are some of the, , justifications for the investment, [00:19:00] the wider benefits of LRT and, and BRTI.
Niels Van Oort: Yeah, that's a, that's a good question, Paul. Thanks. Thanks for that. Uh, that's actually one of the findings when we investigated, , all these light rail systems, , all over the world, we, we tried to find out the success factors, but we also tried to find out why are some of these systems not a success?
Niels Van Oort: So what went wrong, eh, in general, we learned more from the failures than from the successes. That makes sense. And that's what we tried to do with both the, the book about Lightwell, but also with the book about buses. And, and one of the things we, we found out is that the justification, the why of the project was often not, , being made explicit.
Niels Van Oort: It was not completely clear why, why to invest so much money in a system. . That could bring people from A to B. That's obvious, eh, that's the core business o of of public transport. But there's so much more potential of high level public transport services. That's with regard to the environment. I think that's obvious, but also with regard to health. , I think public transport in combination with active modes, [00:20:00] walking and cycling cons contributes to the, to a much. Healthier lifestyle, and I think health issues are becoming a global problem, to be honest. So there's a lot of benefits in in in that area. Equity is also an issue, so all people in society, society being able to reach jobs, schools, hospitals, et cetera.
Niels Van Oort: Obviously public transport could also play a, a big role, uh, there. Uh, and it's also about our cities and the quality of life, efficient space usage, public transport. I like, I like the term mass transit from the US because it shows that public transport is able to move a lot of people with limited amount of space.
Niels Van Oort: If you compare it to the private car, the, the space efficiency of public transport is huge. By saving space in your cities, you can actually put more green, more, , place to, to be more parks, more place for children to, to play. And you can use your cities much more efficient to make it a more livable place instead of a, uh, fully, uh, city of [00:21:00] asphalt and, and vehicles.
Niels Van Oort: So those are also benefits besides bringing people from A to B in a comfortable and and fast manner. And that's maybe the major lesson. Of , boat books. If these objectives are important for you as a city or a region, , in the end that's up to the city and region, , what they find important, that's not up to us.
Niels Van Oort: But if they find it important, it's also important to make sure that you calculate and assess these benefits. , that's also what I do in my, in my, uh, smart public transport lab. We try to develop methods. To calculate the costs, but that's relatively easy in general to calculate the costs of transport systems.
Niels Van Oort: But what about the benefits? How can we calculate the benefits of increased accessibility but also increased livability? Um, I did, I did my PhD back in the days about service reliability. So what is the value of an highly reliable system? That's a lot of, value there, and that's what we try to do with the books and try to show and help people in their, uh, actual projects.
Niels Van Oort: To show the business [00:22:00] case, the societal business case, because it's, it comes with a lot of funding that's obvious both BRT and light rail. You should, you should be crystal clear about the benefits.
Paul Comfort: Tell me about when is the appropriate time to try for BRT for a city versus LRT or a streetcar?
Paul Comfort: When should you pick one versus the other? This is a question that a lot of cities are grappling with. That's,
Niels Van Oort: that's the most, most asked question. After we publish the book, uh, Paul, there's, there's no, there's no clear border, but there's some guidelines and, and there's a lot of factors which, uh, which are, are, are important, which I would like to explain to you.
Niels Van Oort: It also has to do with the history. Do you already have a real network or not? For instance, that's a very important one. Do you start from scratch? , that's an important one. , it's also about ridership. If you have huge amount of expected ridership, you can think of a metro or a light rail system, but there's this gray area in between light drill and, and BRT, and I think BRT is very potential.
Niels Van Oort: It's faster to to be implemented. So if you wanna, if you wanna plan for a [00:23:00] real system, that will take you much more years to, to build and to, and to operate. So that's one of the benefits of A BOT uh, system. , the fast implementation, , it's more flexible. , you don't need to have dedicated lanes everywhere.
Niels Van Oort: Of course, you want to have a high level of, of, uh, dedicated infrastructure, but not per se everywhere, I think. And it's also feasible if ridership is not extremely high, you can still offer a high level of service. . Even if you don't have metro, like, uh, ridership numbers. , so those are a couple of, things to, uh, to consider.
Niels Van Oort: And it's also important about the target group. Who are you thinking of? Who are you serving? That, those are a couple of these factors. Who, who should be
Paul Comfort: taken into account could you describe or differentiate some between BRT and regular bus? What's the difference? What makes bus rapid transit?
Paul Comfort: BRT.
Niels Van Oort: Yeah. What, what I think is important is, I mentioned it already a a few times, that is dedicated infrastructure.
Paul Comfort: Okay. Because
Niels Van Oort: what you wanna achieve with BRT is [00:24:00] high reliable services.
Paul Comfort: So you want, do you have to have, do you have to have a divided lane or could you have it in with other traffic with just a bus only lane.
Paul Comfort: I.
Niels Van Oort: No, that, that depends on the situation. But you don't want to have mixed traffic. , you don't want to be part of the congestion. , so you need some priority, A traffic, uh, uh, junctions, traffic lights. You need some, have some, some separate links or, or segregated links so you are not, .
Niels Van Oort: Hindered by by auto traffic because besides reliability is key, speed is also, uh, it's bus rapid transit, , obviously, and, and speed is a very important factor, both for the passengers. People like to be fast from A to B, but also that fast. Public transport is also a cheap public transport because the faster you go with your bus, uh, the more cycles you can run with one bus.
Niels Van Oort: So the cheaper it gets to, to achieve a, uh, a high frequency, so, so high speed or actually, , limited stops, that could also be, uh, uh, in a way, yes, limited stops, right? It's, it's very important. So that's also one of the, [00:25:00] uh, elements. , distance, , stopping distance is high with B or t. So you don't stop every 400 meters, you probably will stop every thousands or depending on, of course, on the, on the urban planning.
Niels Van Oort: But, uh, stopping distance are are longer. Which has the benefit of having a higher operational speed right. But also stresses the need for proper first last mile connections. And that's why I'm such a big fan of, of bicycles integrated with public transport. . Because if you have a proper bicycle infrastructure, and services and, and also parking facilities, um, people can actually take the bike to the stop, jump in a very comfortable, high speed, reliable BRT, , move quickly to the destination and maybe for the last mile they can walk or maybe can get some shared micro mobility.
Paul Comfort: What about frequency? , does BRT have a set defined headway?
Niels Van Oort: , what my rule of thumb would be for BRT systems is that the frequencies are, such [00:26:00] that you don't need to think about when should I go to the stop?
Niels Van Oort: You just go at random because you don't need to wait, uh, that long. And that's of course, , a personal decision. But we know from, from, uh, scientific research that people tend to go to the stop at random if they had race are about. 10, eight minutes. Um, so let's say six to eight times, uh, an hour at least.
Niels Van Oort: , the more the better obviously, but it obviously also comes with a price. Yeah. , but you should actually be, , you should not consider the timetable anymore. It's just you go there and you never wait too long. 'cause no one likes waiting, isn't it? , so if you have a bus frequency of 30 minutes or an hour.
Niels Van Oort: That, that, that could be, uh, feasible for specific lines or networks. But for BOT, you should always be, , high frequent.
Paul Comfort: I was in a big city here in the US recently out west, and they were building a BRT line while I was there and took me out to, , view the construction , they had about 60% of dedicated roadway.
Paul Comfort: . Where it was [00:27:00] most congested. Yes. And then they, uh, and then it was shared. , and then they were also doing a complete street project at the same time, widening the sidewalks from five feet to 10 feet on large portions of it, and adding in 40 new bus shelters, which were designed to keep the sun off off your head.
Paul Comfort: You know, it was in a real hot city. So they were doing a whole mix of things. , and that still, I think, is cheaper than building a, a, a light rail system, even with all those extra components.
Niels Van Oort: Probably it is, and it's, it's good you mentioned it because it's, it's always more than just building a bus line.
Niels Van Oort: It's the whole thing. , if we wanna make public transport attractive, everything should work. So the routes towards the stop should be safe and logical to walk or to cycle. , but indeed also the shelter should be, , if you're just waiting in the sun, on the wind, or in our country in the rain, no one will, ever join your system.
Niels Van Oort: So also, the shelter should be okay. The vehicle should be. Comfortable seating should be comfortable. And then obviously the network [00:28:00] should also be well connected, , frequent and, and high speed. So everything, every part of the system should be high level. , and that's often what we see. If we talk about field projects, then sometimes only one of these elements.
Niels Van Oort: So maybe, , the line is well designed, but the shelter is poor, or the routes to and from the stops are poor., that's not a way to convince people to use public transport. So everything should be okay. And in that sense, sometimes I hear that, that, that BRT is a sort of low budget, uh, LRT.
Niels Van Oort: And indeed it's cheaper, but I wouldn't say it's low. Budget. Quality comes with a price. , if you wanna have high quality public transport, you also should be willing to invest, in infrastructure, in shelters, everything we discussed here.
Paul Comfort: And could it also be shown or potentially seen BRT seen as kind of a step?
Paul Comfort: To potentially having, , light rail. So you put in BRT first, you can get it there quicker. You can modify routes if you need to, to find out what the best, , bus stops are. And then, you know, over five to 10 [00:29:00] years, maybe you move toward an LRTI.
Niels Van Oort: Yeah, that's indeed a very good way. Yeah, because no, we, we can, we have all these models to predict ridership , et cetera, but we, we are never certain about the future.
Niels Van Oort: Let's, let's be honest about it. So if it's not crystal clear that you will have a very high ridership, , justifying a real connection, uh, A BOT is a very good, , stepping solution, as you were saying. , and we see that all over the world, and sometimes actually it's, it's working so well. That the rail is not needed anymore, that the bus itself is, dealing with it.
Niels Van Oort: But sometimes we see that ridership goes, it goes up, uh, amazingly. And then the step towards, uh, a rail system is, is unavoidable because in the end, , if we compare rail systems with bus systems. Capacity of, of especially metro systems, but also light rail systems is in general substantial higher than, yeah.
Niels Van Oort: Than, uh, BOT systems. Do you have some
Paul Comfort: examples? , some cities in the world that have done this best practices, best cases, I.
Niels Van Oort: Yeah. So what I, there, there's, there's a couple [00:30:00] of places I like to, uh, to refer to if it, if it's about public transport, I think. Yeah, you're traveling all the world, all over the world.
Niels Van Oort: Paul. I'm very jealous, by the way. Uh, with, but I think, , I think a z is a very good place where they really know how to plan for proper public transport. And, and what we also see, in Singapore and Hong Kong and Tokyo, is we see a mix. I often see that people are sort of fighting, either you're, uh, pro rill or you're pro bus or pro metro or whatever.
Niels Van Oort: , and I think we need to think more in the optimal mix of modes. I, I think we need to promote public transport or even better, I think we need to promote sustainable, uh, traveling, including. Active modes including, , shared mobility. And I think all these success cities, , they're all acknowledging that not fighting within public transport, but connecting.
Niels Van Oort: And also when I was, , visiting Mayor Lopez , in Bogota, she was also very clear there. She had clear. Societal goals, what she wanted to reach with, uh, achieve with her public transport wider than only [00:31:00] accessibility, also inclusiveness, and, , equity and sustainability. And she also, they have a great BOT system, but she was also being aware that only BOT is not going to, solve all the issues.
Niels Van Oort: So she was also planning for a new metro line. Not replacing the BOT. Okay. But actually strength strengthening, , the whole network. And, and that's my, my main message. Maybe it's not, it should not be a fight between LOT or BOT. It should be what's the best mode in connection with all the other ones, the optimal mix.
Paul Comfort: Yeah, I've been to the one in Singapore and seen what they've done, uh, amazing work there. Uh, but I have not been to Hong Kong or to Japan and would love to go and see some of what they've done. A good buddy of mine just took a tour of the Asian countries and went to a lot of their transit systems, including Japan, and he sent me a lot of pictures and just Fantastic.
Paul Comfort: What do you think is next? What's coming next for, uh, the world when it comes to these type of modes?
Niels Van Oort: Yeah, I think what one, what, what a technology is, is, which is already , happening in your country and also in, China is, uh, autonomous driving. , and [00:32:00] then we are not talking only about taxis, but I think this technology will also help to improve, uh, efficiency and effectiveness of, of public transport.
Niels Van Oort: So I think we will , move into that era. . We were talking about this already 10 years ago, and then people were a bit maybe overexcited. So then in 2020, all the cities will be, , filled with autonomous cars. , that obviously did not happen, so let's not overestimate it. , but on the other hand, I think that,
Niels Van Oort: the self-driving technology can be a big game changer in, in operations of public transport, not only because of the funding of operations, obviously, but also, uh, if we look now at, uh, all the, the, the labor shortage which we're facing, , especially, , after Covid, that that's, that's becoming a big issue.
Niels Van Oort: And there's also, autonomous driving could, uh, could be a big help. And, and of, of course, we already see autonomous metros all over the world. I was in Dubai, , two weeks ago. It's amazing. Their metro every time. Yeah. I've written that without a driver. Um,
Paul Comfort: yeah. That's fantastic. I was there when they were doing what, what used to be called the World's Fair.
Paul Comfort: But [00:33:00] we went to the transportation place and we wrote that autonomous thing out there. It was amazing. What's next for you, Neils? I, I got one suggestion. Drop that Dutch book into chat, GPT and put it out in English for us.
Niels Van Oort: That's a very, that's a very good recommendation.
Niels Van Oort: That's excellent. Actually, also at least part of, of what our plan is indeed, because we now have a Dutch book that's nice for Dutch people, but there are not so many. And of course, we're happy to discuss with, with everyone in the world about, uh, what, what we wrote down. So I will keep you posted, , here, Paul, you will be the first one to send, uh, um, to send a copy to. So , that's happening. And also in, uh, in September we are hosting a, a training again like we did in Melbourne. Okay? But now we'll do it in, uh, in Amsterdam 22nd , of September.
Niels Van Oort: , we will give. A, , international training for four days for young professionals, people who'd like to know more about public transport planning. , so everyone is, , is welcome to, join us in Amsterdam.
Paul Comfort: We'll drop a link to your website on our show notes. If people are interested in coming there.
Paul Comfort: I can tell you from seeing it firsthand, and, and you can watch it by the [00:34:00] way, you can see some of it. It was a short clip, maybe a minute, but, uh, on our Melbourne episode of Transit Unplugged tv. Thank you for your, um, for your gracious time today, Neils. This has been a great conversation. I think it's, um, it's important to drop back every now and then as we analyze what's next for our city when it comes to public transportation, especially.
Paul Comfort: How it all fits together. And these two particular modes, , light rail or street cards are sometimes known here, or trams as it's known down in Australia, right? Yes. By the way, give me that. What's your take on all these names? It's all basically the same thing, right? It's just different nomenclature.
Paul Comfort: That's,
Niels Van Oort: that's true. We, we, we like to call it a, a trend, but indeed there's multiple, uh, terms all around the world.
Paul Comfort: Yeah. I mean, you've got the catenary wire and it, it's powered up on top. That's the basic, that's what it is. Right? I mean, if you were, if you were to describe what Light rail is, how would you differentiate it from Heavy rail?
Niels Van Oort: What I like as a definition, because there's plenty of definitions about light rail. That's by the way, also one of the challenges there. What is light rail? Exactly. Yeah, yeah. , but I think one of the main thing is [00:35:00] that light rail is combining the best of heavy rail metro and tramps.
Niels Van Oort: So it's more flexible than, uh, than heavy rail. You can actually also interact in, in cities, you can actually enter the city center. You can even pass, , walking parts or cycle path. So it's actually well connected and integrated in your urban plan. And that's of course impossible with, with heavy will.
Niels Van Oort: But whenever you are out, out of the city into the region, it actually acts more as a train. So you can have high speed connections, , to connect all the suburbs and, and the regional towns to your inner center. That's also a system we see here in my neighborhood, which I worked when I was a,
Niels Van Oort: strategic planner at the operator here. , so we have a high frequent system from the suburbs and regional towns directly driving into the city center. You, you leave the, the, the, the tram and you enter the shops. And that's I think the power of light drill, bringing people to where they really want to be.
Niels Van Oort: Yeah,
Paul Comfort: when I was, um, administrator of the Maryland Transit Administration, we were building what's called the Purple Line. [00:36:00] Uh, it's, it's in Maryland, but it connects up to the Washington DC Metro. Yes. And it goes right through. It's the largest P three project in the nation at the time. $5 billion more than that now, I think.
Paul Comfort: But it was going right through the campus of University of Maryland College Park. Just as you said, right through the middle of campus where students are walking, but it's slow enough where they feel like it would be safe. But it also connects up with other rail modes, the metro, which is heavy, more heavier rail.
Paul Comfort: So that connection you're talking about, I, it's, it's happening right now here in Maryland.
Niels Van Oort: I. That's exactly indeed what I like. It's the hybrid function of, of operating as a tram here, and then another segment of the route. It's operating as a, as a metro or even a heavy reel. That's it. That's what I like about it.
Paul Comfort: Very interesting. Well, thanks again Neils for this and let's stay in touch. I, I appreciate all the academic work you're doing, but also the practical nature of it.
Niels Van Oort: Yeah, that's, uh, that's one of my drivers. I like to do scientific research, but always with, uh, society in mind to make an impact in the, in the real world, so to speak.
Paul Comfort: Very good. Thank you so much. And if you wanna know more about Neils and the work he's doing, [00:37:00] check our show notes. We'll have lots of links. Take care, brother.
Julie Gates: Thank you for joining this edition of the Transit Unplugged Podcast featuring Neils von Ort, co-director Smart Public Transport Lab, Delph University of Technology. Here is a word from Julie Gates.
My name is Julie Gates. I'm the executive producer of the podcast and I wanna thank you for listening to this show.
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