Is the great hydrogen pivot coming to transit in 2024?

On today's episode of the Transit Unplugged podcast, we visit the city of Edmonton, where I sit down with Deputy City Manager Eddie Robar, a former guest on our show, on board one of his two hydrogen powered buses, and we talk about the transition to alternate fuels, and their constant hunt for renewable energy for innovation in this cold, northernmost city of the Western Hemisphere with over a million people.

Then come with me as I visit Carrie Hotten-MacDonald, who succeeded Eddie as GM of the Edmonton Transit Service, as we tour through their huge Kathleen Andrews Bus Garage, which is named for their first female bus driver. Inside, they house hundreds of buses, including 50 of their battery electric charged ones, and she describes how it all works. for the vehicles and their drivers.

We also discussed their oldest in the nation light rail vehicles and their newest LRT route that opened the week before we arrived. I actually rode that route to the Edmonton Oilers game and you can see it in all the hijinks and fun we had on the ride on our Transit Unplugged TV show on YouTube this week. Plus, you can see the bus Eddie and I talked on, and the whole garage, as Kerry walks us through on this audio podcast. And, as always, we share the food and fun of the City of Edmonton.

Plus, highlights from the Canadian Urban Transit Association, or CUTA Conference, that was being held there at the same time. Check it out when you're done this podcast on our YouTube channel, Transit Unplugged TV.

So Eddie, what does it mean for cities like Edmonton, which is known for its oil, but now you're looking into all these other clean energy sources like electric and hydrogen?

So being innovative, being on the forefront of this work, makes it a lot easier when you have all of this around you to be able to do that. We've been in the hydrogen space for over 50 years, whether it's been through different, different industries. But now we're looking to say, to change that, that momentum for the province of Alberta and really convert our province into that number one delivery of of sustainable fuel for the world.

and obviously that comes with an energy background and how do we do that. So, you know, being known for the energy that we do have and changing ourselves to a more sustainable fuel is a great place to be.

For us, you know, that electrification journey for us started with our battery electric buses and now we're pushing into the hydrogen space and that pivot. But really, it's about how do you convert electric fleets? And I think one big question we've had from a lot of the people that, that have run transit systems is, what's your plan and how do you get to the point where you're getting 100 percent electric fleet? Well, how do you build that out? And, and we do that through different ways.

One where we're using our electrification program was a start, a battery electric. Now we're pivoting to hydrogen electric. We're building a brand new transit garage that's going to help us do that. We call that our swing garage. So when we look at electrifying fleets, you need a place, infrastructure. Places where you can do this work and build that out in your fleet. So we're looking to build a new transit garage, which will be built in this budget cycle. We're starting to build it.

That garage itself is built for hydrogen electric buses and that conversion, but also diesel. So we're taking, we have five different garages right now. We're going to be filling up that new garage with diesel buses and then converting the fleet over and turning that fleet over. Then we're going to build another garage after that, that's only electric.

Okay. So we're able to kind of pick up those electric vehicles, shift them over to a new garage, and then do the process all over again in that garage. So we move all the buses, diesel buses, into the, uh, swing garage, convert the fleet over, then move them to the new garage after that.

We were able to really test whether or not that will be good for our climate, making sure that we get the range that we need out of the vehicles for a bus is a bus is a bus. Uh, we didn't know we didn't want to do on street charging. We wanted to have in depot charging, which you'll see in our, our transit garage here in Kathleen Andrews, which is a fantastic garage, uh, but shows you that showcase of in depot charging, what that means. but for us, it's about range. Everything is about range.

So are we going to get the range that we need? In the cold weather, uh, I always tell people I don't care what a bus can do in the summer, I only care what it can do in minus 20 or minus 30 degrees. And we're learning that as we're kind of building that out, right? So, that electrification program started there. We learned a ton. Uh, we shared a ton with the industry on, on what we've learned and where we're at.

And, you know, all of those things that people can avoid that we maybe did not so right in the first, uh, the first foray when you're kind of those ones on the forefront of innovation. But, uh, and now we're on the forefront of innovation with the hydrogen sector too. And we think. This pivot for us is going to give us what we need to really manage our program here in Edmonton.

So this is the first fully electric bus for the city of Edmonton itself. Uh, it has a hydrogen fuel cell from Ballard. Uh, really, oxygen comes into the fuel cell itself. We take hydrogen from the tanks above. We have 36 kilogram tanks on the roof. That hydrogen gets pushed into the fuel cell, we mix that with oxygen, and the chemical reaction inside that fuel cell creates electricity, energy, for us to propel the vehicle forward. So, that byproduct of this fuel cell is heat and water.

So, uh, with the tailpipe, it just comes nice, clean water. Seeing people drink it out of the tailpipe, believe it or not. Uh, but also the heat from the fuel cell, we recover to heat the bus itself. So unlike the battery electric buses, where you're looking at heating that bus through a diesel heater, we're able to recover the heat off the fuel cell and build that, uh, into the bus itself and really warm that vehicle from there. So it gives us extra distance.

Big great thing about this bus and why we pivoted more to this hydrogen electric bus. Is because of range. So when we look at range degradation in the wintertime, it gets pretty cold here in the city of Edmonton, you can imagine, in the winter. So in order for us to get the range that we require from our bus, we really are looking for that bus to go about 400 kilometres or more in our service.

And this bus here, the range at minus 20, minus 25, has been giving us about 450 kilometres of distance, which is fantastic. And we don't see that range degradation that we're getting out of the battery electric buses. So we're pretty excited. about the hydrogen program itself, what this first bus means for the city of Edmonton, building the hydrogen economy here in Alberta, and being that number one producer of hydrogen for the world.

I've been in transit for, uh, 20, 20 years before moving out of that space and into more of a fleet and facilities role. So, I was looking to kind of grow the scope of my career, um, looking for an ability for myself to move up, obviously.

And, uh, and kind of did took a little lateral move in the work that I did, but obviously as the branch manager, really looking at transit service is kind of a passion of mine, and it's always been a passion of mine, so, uh, when this job came up as the deputy city manager of city operations for the city itself, that includes ETS, waste services, parks and roads, and fleet and facilities, uh, our fleet group works, uh, with the buses, uh, the transit buses, And then obviously

ETS runs the service, and the trains. So, it was a no brainer for me to kind of jump back in that space and be able to make sure that, you know, I still keep my hat in the ring on everything transit, the strategy going forward, how do we build programs like these electrification programs, and how we build out the city to be, you know, one of the best transit systems in the country. Yeah.

And then eventually into this, this more political, you know, role, but an influencer role in terms of, what we're able to do and how we're able to guide and, and kind of steer the direction strategy of transportation systems, but of cities as well. And I think the, the ideal thing for me and the move for me was really about city building. And when you look at city building, you know, great cities have great transit. and that was always in the back of my mind is, you know, how do you become.

Bigger part of that, that city building conversation versus just the operation of a transit system. And, and how do you use that transit system to influence the way we shape cities?

And I think, as we build the housing situation out, you know, getting more affordable housing, but having that, that burden of transportation off your mind as you're looking for places to live, um, is, is a huge benefit.

And having a transit system that supports that and builds that out and offers a much more economical option for people to, to co-locate or to be in places of the city where they thought they might not be able to be, and, and live and have their kids grow up and, and be a part of that network just based on a transit system, uh, is a pretty awesome opportunity when you look at reshaping cities.

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What a great interview with Eddie Robar. Now let's head over to the Kathleen Andrews garage where we take a tour walking through it with the GM Carrie Hotten-MacDonald

Carrie thanks for having us in this is an amazing garage. Tell us about it. Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: Oh, we're so excited that you're here So this is our Kathleen Andrews Transit Garage. It's our newest bus garage that we have with an ETS service. Kathleen Andrews is an inspiration. She's our first woman transit operator. She joined us in the 1970s. It was a very different time. She had a very difficult start. Uh, her daughter actually works for us now.

She's a training instructor, and we're just really excited that the garage was named after her. . So, in the garage, we actually have some memorabilia. It's a little bit of an archive of some of our history, which is really cool. So ETS has been around for about 115 years, um, and over those years staff have contributed. So we can see examples. Uh, as you can see, we have pictures on the wall showing lots of history. Uh, looking at, uh, news articles, pictures of the old fleet.

And you have Canada's first light rail system. And it's newest light rail system, right? Yeah, we rode that last night. Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: Exactly. We have the oldest LRT. Uh, those cars are going to be replaced, uh, in a few years. Thanks to some funding that we just got. Oh, great. And then we have the newest with the Valley Line Southeast. Uh, which is more of a low floor, urban style LRT, helping people connect. Uh, and we're just really excited to have both.

So within the garage for operators, when they come in for work, they actually get to come to this beautiful dispatch, area. And they sign in for their shift and then they're able to go out back, uh, to get to their buses in the morning. Uh, we have their running boards and everything ready for them, right adjacent to you. This this area and then at the end we also have their operator lounge and the operator lounge is super cool. Let's go Let's check it out. Let's take a look. Yeah,

Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: So our operators use this space. So when they have a break, when they come off of the morning peak, or maybe at the end of their shift, they can come in here, get a drink, they can heat up their food. Play a little pool. Play some pool. You got a pool table in here. Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: Yeah. Exactly. They get to hang out, chill out, enjoy this space, and we're just really pleased.

And I think going forward, making sure That we have sufficient space so people can relax, decompress after their shift, get themselves ready to head out. So, we're really pleased with this space. That's great.

So we're walking in the garage right here. You've got lots of buses around. Uh, they are a beautiful blue color up top that says Edmonton Transit Service on it. And then gray on the bottom half. But do you separate them from The electric ones from the diesel ones here in this indoor garage where you have all your vehicles parked? Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: We do, because of the overhead charging infrastructure. We have, as you can see, a whole corridor dedicated for our electric fleet.

Okay. So you can see that the overhead charging, pantograph comes down, makes contact with the bus. so we have them all lined up together. And how many buses in total in your entire fleet here at Edmonton Transit? Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: That's a great question. So we have about 1, 100 conventional buses, uh, in the fleet, and then we also have, uh, on the paratransit side, we have another set, uh, of the smaller paratransit buses.

So this is where we have our charging infrastructure. So again, in depot first in North America to take this approach. And you can see the pantographs come down from the ceiling. And they make contact with the bus. And then they charge the bus's battery. Which is really cool to see. We can accommodate up to about 50 buses that are battery electric in this facility with the charging infrastructure. So I believe there's about 22 different units that we have in this particular corridor.

That's great. And so it takes about four hours and then you move some of them out and the Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: other group comes in? Exactly. That's exactly what it provides. So when they come in from service, they go through the bus wash and then they're able to come and line up in the garage just like any other buses. Yeah. But the difference being they have this overhead. pantograph, to charge the batteries.

And did you have to, like, specially wire this garage, I'm sure, for the power that would be required? Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: For sure. What was really exciting is we were working on the garage, and then we really kind of zeroed in on the opportunities for that in depot charging. So things like we had to get different flooring because the buses are heavier. So we had to look at making sure the design specs met the requirements for these buses.

so it was really interesting to take that into consideration during the process of planning and designing a garage. That's good. Let's walk inside one and maybe tell me about inside.

So I'm sitting in the operator's seat here. Tell me what I need to know as an operator. Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: Does it feel like old hands? Like you want to get behind the wheel? I gave my CDL up a couple of years ago. Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: So what's really neat about this bus, as you can see, we have our Smart Fare, validator for fare payments. So that's a regional Smart Fare implementation. so a person boards the bus, they're able to tap and then they can head to the back of the bus.

From an operator's perspective, it's not all that different. So we did do, uh, training for the operators to help them understand kind of how the bus operates. And it was mostly about answering questions. I think operators were wondering like, how different is it? You know, but really a bus is a bus. Yeah. And you know, if you're a professional. bus operator with us, you can definitely operate this bus safely

. So the other cool feature on our buses, uh, we implemented this in 2019 on the entire fleet. We have a retractable operator shield, which is super cool. You know, if you think about safety and security, you think about, obviously we went through a pandemic, being able to raise this window up if needed. Or you can leave it down to interact with your riders. But this was a really important investment for us, and the operators really appreciate having it. I bet you they do.

Yeah. Yeah. That's great. When I was in Baltimore, we put these in, and uh, it really helped, uh, reduce negative interactions between passengers. Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: Exactly. Exactly. Riders, really respected. I love your sign here. It says, zero tolerance of assaulting an operator. It's a criminal offense, and offenders will be prosecuted right on the door. Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: For sure. That's great. We, we lay out the expectation. We work closely with ATU.

We have an operator, uh, assault task force. We work really closely on safety and security related, uh, elements. And that was one of the things that we worked together on.

So Carrie this it's very cold up here in Edmonton. I know you're like way up north in Canada. Do you have to park all your vehicles inside? Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: Yeah, it's a decision we made. So we bring all of the vehicles indoors. We are the northernmost kind of large city. Yeah in North America. So we definitely have winter weather. I don't mind, but some people do. Uh, so all of the vehicles come inside. So this particular facility is over 400, 000 square feet. So it's quite large.

It can accommodate a big fleet, uh, which we value. We actually have another growth garage coming. Uh, we're in the planning and design stage for it. That'll house 400 buses and it's going to be completely zero emission. So I'm really, really excited about that too. Yeah, Eddie was telling me about that. And what's underneath this floor? That's what I think is cool too. Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: Yeah, so underneath is actually parking for the operators.

So It's funny when people say, well, don't the operators use transit? Well, they actually operate transit. They don't necessarily have access to a bus at 3 in the morning or 4 in the morning. You have to come here to get it. Exactly. So we have underground, uh, parking for them. We also have, uh, all of the power systems, uh, that are supporting the charging infrastructure as well. Oh, underneath here. Yeah, exactly. That's great.

And this building, it's like shiny metal, like aluminum on the outside. Amazing! Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: It is, yeah, so the architecture is really cool. It had a very intentional design and we're just really proud of, you know, it blends I think that industrial with like a modern feel. Yeah. And again, for the people working here, the contrast with, as you know, older style transit garages. Yes. Dark, dingy, very, you know. Right. This feels super modern.

Exactly. But I like your homage to the old industrial past here. What's that big, like, smokestack sitting by itself? Was there an old factory there or something? Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: There was, exactly, exactly. So it's really cool. This is repurposing existing land. We wanted to protect kind of the history and heritage of it. So that old smokestack is really important and it's significant to the city. And we're just really proud to be able to have a facility like this.

You know, and still preserve some of that history of the existing kind of site that we're on. So where are we at now? Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: So this is where all of the bus maintenance activity takes place. So all of the maintenance is done in this facility, and as you can see, the spaces between bus staging where the operators are. It's right next door. Exactly. In the same building. Exactly. So who drives the vehicles inside the building?

Yeah. Does your driver bring it in and somebody else parks it because they're super tight in here? Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: Yeah, no. Operators get it parked, but we do have a staff person. Working on the maintenance side who helps when it's time to move buses within the space. Right. We have a position that does that. And you do all the preventive maintenance as well as repair work here? Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: That's right. Everything is done here.

So we have a very, very talented maintenance team. And they look after all of our buses. And how has it been for you post pandemic recruiting operators and mechanics? Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: Yeah, we've done really well on the operator side. I think it's an attractive position. You know, we have great benefits. In addition to benefits, we have a pension plan. So our numbers are good. It's just making sure that we have the HR staff to actually process everything in a timely way.

That's been my challenge. On the maintenance side, it's more difficult. So I think as we all know in the industry, it's tough to find those heavy equipment techs. And making sure, because we're competing with the private sector, making sure that we get access to that talent pool and that we can bring them in. So that's always an ongoing challenge. So Carrie, this building you said was very intentionally designed.

Tell me about the artwork and some of the other facets of Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: it. It's really cool. So we have public art. Uh, so on top of the building you'll actually see these pillars that are there. And they have latitude and longitude painted on each pillar, and it reflects mountain regions that are at the same latitude as this garage, which is so unique and different, it makes people question, what is that?

But you can definitely see it, so as you're kind of in this area, it definitely catches your eye, and it's a bit unique for us. That's great.

Tell us a little about your brand new LRT line that just started just very recently. We got to ride it, uh, to the, uh Edmonton Oilers game the other night. Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: Oh that's so good, I'm glad you tried it. So it's a low floor urban style LRT that we've added to our network. So we have high floor LRT and this is a new style that we're adding. So it takes a person from downtown all the way to Mill Woods which is a community on the southeast side of the city.

And along the way we have stops that include Indigenous artwork so you can actually do a walking tour of indigenous art. Attacha, which is super cool. And then the line itself, it's 30 minutes for the entire trip, so 60 minute return trip. Same fare as our entire network, which is great, so it's fully accessible. And what I love seeing, and I've been riding it a lot, a lot of children are on the trains.

So people are using it as an opportunity to teach kids about transit, and there's so much enthusiasm, which is really cool. We've also heard stories of seniors who hadn't been downtown in years, and now they're like, I'm going to hop on the train and I can get there. Workers, it connects people to a hospital that's a major employer. So people are just seamlessly traveling with transit now, instead of looking at other modes. That's great. So this is another area for our staff and our operators.

And what I like about it is we have kind of individual pods. Again, if people need time to kind of, you know, recoup and kind of re energize themselves after a shift, it's a great opportunity to do that. We also have an opportunity here if you're up for it, you can do some recreational kind of activity. Exactly, we've got ping pong. We have the operator changing rooms as well, but it's a nice big open space. Yeah, I like how modern it looks. You've got these, uh, white square lights over top.

It's high roofs, industrial looking. Exactly. Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: It's really great looking. Yeah, it's really, really nice. Very modern. Exactly. Art Deco and all that. Yeah, it's awesome. We also have meeting rooms and training rooms. There's your training room, yeah. Um, that are on this level as well, so that provides another opportunity.

Uh, so whether it's continuous training for the operators or part of the basic operator training program, uh, we can use this facility in addition to the others that we have.

So we're outside the building, this phenomenal building, Carrie. I don't think I've ever seen anything like this. It's incredible. Yeah, Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: So this is one of six facilities that we have for ETS service. and so you've been general manager here for three and a half years since Eddie moved up to, Eddie Robar moved up to the deputy city manager. In your time as GM, what are you most proud of?

Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: Oh, I think what I'm most proud of, honestly, is just all the work that we put in as a leadership team to work with our city council. Fun fact Our mayor used to be a transit operator with us. So if anyone understands transit, it's definitely our mayor. So they've made important investments. So they gave us over 700 million of investments. We're finally replacing the aging LRT cars. They've invested in off peak service, which has huge equity outcomes.

They've just been very generous in supporting our plans. And I think it proves that if you put your heads together, can talk really, uh, strategically with your governors and paint that path for them. If we do this, after that, we could do this, and then after that, we could do this. And as you look to the future over the next year or two, what are the game plans? Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: So we're growing our mass transit network. It's bigger than LRT. We're looking at bus based growth.

We're going to grow our service hours to serve more people. And that's what I'm most proud of, is that they have the confidence in us and everything that we're bringing forward. That's great. Well, thank you so much for having us here today and showing us your amazing Kathleen Grudge. This is great. What a great story, and we wish you all the best as you continue to go forward. Carrie Hotton-MacDonald: Oh thank you so much Paul; it's been great.

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