All right. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Transformative Principal podcast. This is Mike Caldwell, your host, and joining me all the way from Indiana is Scott Bess. Scott, welcome. Mike, good to, good to see you. Happy to be on. Well, let's, let's break, break things up a little bit. I have five rapid fire questions, and then we'll get into a little bit of your background- Sure and, and then get into the meat, meat of, meat and potatoes of the thing, of this conversation.
But let's, let's start with, uh, what do you see as one outdated practice in education you would eliminate tomorrow? Oh, for sure. The, uh, um, discrete subject areas, uh, where, in high school where you go from math to English to social studies, and then the time block. Like, everything lasts 18 weeks or 36 weeks. I would blow that up tomorrow if I could. Ooh, love it. What's one innovation you think will become mainstream within the next decade? I think I know the answer.
Yeah. It's gotta be, but I'm curious on what you- Well- … you're gonna say on this. No, I think, I think we're gonna see even more proliferation of micro schools, um, and distributed education. Um, and I think as the tools catch up with some of that, it's gonna become even more prevalent. Not, not what I expected. I'm, I'm, I'm intrigued with the answer, though. What's something schools should measure that they currently don't?
I think measuring everything a student is doing inside and outside of school. There's so much learning that happens outside the school walls, and it may as well not happen in terms of, of how the schools see it. So I think if they could find ways to capture everything a student is doing, 'cause they're doing amazing things on their own, and we just don't, we just never see it.
Yeah. Well, building off of your, a little bit of your background in IT, what's one lesson education could learn from the tech sector? Oh, I think, um, innovate or die. Like I, you know, in the tech sector, if you haven't innovated, you just, you just go away. And I think in education we just haven't learned that lesson yet, and we c- we hang on, we hang on, we hang on.
You know, everybody talks about, you know, if you look at the diploma from the, you know, early 1900s, it looks a lot like the diploma today, right? And if you look at how you got that diploma, it looks like how you get the diploma today. So I think that innovation that ha- has happened everywhere else hasn't happened in education. And I, my fear is that we're going to become obsolete if we don't adapt quickly. Last question.
Uh, what's a misconception people have about charter schools or s- or school innovation? You choose. Oh, God. Yeah, charter schools, it's easy. Like, that's… You know, they, you know, they, they skim kids. They only take, uh, high-end kids. They, they, uh, don't take special education. They're, you know, they're… It costs money to go to voucher school.
Like, there's a, there's like a greatest hits that, like, teachers unions and others trot out every time and, you know, it, it's… We spend a lot of time going, "No, that's actually not true. This is, this is the reality and this is what happens." So yeah, those are, those are, like, the big misconceptions that, that exist. Yeah. Awesome. Well, if we were doing a three minutes and 20, uh, minute podcast, we'd be wrapping up right now. Boom. And those are, those are some good nuggets right there.
Yeah. Yeah, maybe that's why we should… Micro pods. That's right. Um, three minutes or less. Well, Scott, you're the president of the Indiana Charter Innovation Center. Yep. Uh, previously founded the Indiana Charter School Association. Yep. And also a member of the Indiana State Board of Education. Right. So you have your hands in a lot of different, uh, pots- Yeah … all connected to education, but that's not where you, you've- Yeah you've had, you've had an interesting career.
Yeah. Talk a little bit about your, your background- Yeah … and IT and… Well, yeah, I won't spoil it for the, for the, for the audience here. Yeah. Give me a little flavor of where you're coming from. No, I always tell people, like, you should never come to me for career advice, 'cause my career path has been a meandering journey. Um, I started off my career as a teacher, like, you know, came out of college, went right into teaching.
Uh, coached, um, for several years and then I went, "Man, there's gotta be a different way to do this." And again, this, to give you some context, I was teaching computers to sixth, seventh, and eighth graders on Apple IIEs. So that'll give you a little bit of a timeframe reference. Um, and I just got frustrated with- Someone in their 20s, I'm really surprised- Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah … 'cause you basically spill it. Yeah, as young as I am, yeah. I, um, went into the museum and got those IIEs.
Um, but I got frustrated with, like- It didn't, even then, back in the mid-'80s, it didn't feel like that there should be better ways to do it, and it just wasn't possible then. And so I left and went into the IT world and worked my way up at a couple different companies, um, and eventually wound up as a CIO at Goodwill Industries of Central Indiana. Um, and so that, you know, I learned a lot.
I, I did… I was working for a somewhat soul-sucking, uh, utility company as I was head of IT for one of their business units for a bit, and went through a corporate re-engineering, which say what you want about that, and you get all these big, uh, consulting firms that were, you know, getting paid a lot of money. But I learned a lot about how do you look at an enterprise and think about how do you redo that?
Like, how do you get, take the practices that you were doing and look ahead and say, "How should we start doing this, um, in the future?" And so that was a kind of a pivotal moment for me, going, "Oh, wait, like, this is IT stuff and… but it c- it applies almost anywhere." And so as I got back into education, um, at Goodwill, um, and we can talk about more about that. But, you know, we, we started a small charter school because I had all this education background.
I'd also been on my, uh, got elected to my local school board, and I was on that for 16 years. And so taking that education experience and then going, "Hey, you're the CIO. You've got all this education experience. Can you help oversee our charter high school?" And that got me back into education, which then led to some other things Now, is that when you created the Excel Center? It was, yeah. So the, the recession hit in 2008, right?
So people, your listeners would remember… I mean, that was nationwide. And it turns out that people who did not have a high school diploma, they just got annihilated in the workforce. Um, and so they would come into Goodwill, and obviously Goodwill helped people prepare for, find, and keep jobs. And what we found is people came- lost their job, came in through the doors. We helped them get a job, typically a low-paying job. Then they would lose that job, come back in the doors.
And our president at the time, um, at Goodwill, Jim McClellan, who's a mentor of mine, uh, said, "Hey, look, we've got to figure out what's the commonality of these folks." And we found that over half the people coming in for assistance didn't have a high school diploma. And so there was a, I don't know if it's famous or infamous weekend.
I went home and looked through Indiana State Code and came back in on a Monday and said, "Hey, you know, Indiana does not have an upper age limit on who can get a diploma, nor a limit on who can get funded for one." And so we put together a really small group of people, actually came up with the design of the Excel Centers, went into the Indianapolis mayor's office and said, "We've got an idea.
Would you guys authorize this?" And they were like, "Absolutely, yes." And so we launched in 2010 with one school. We were gonna launch with 200 people. The demand drove it to 300. And then we, within that first year, we I told a story the other day to some folks, like, we had this idea of what the school would be, and this is like the innovative part, re-engineering part comes around. Like, what we thought would work, didn't.
And like in October, November of that first year, we're like, "Not only is no one going to graduate, I'm not sure anyone's ever going to get a credit." And so rather than get fired, we're like, "Now what do we do?" And that's where we came up with essentially the basic function of what the Excel Centers are today, with five terms a year, flexible scheduling, all the things, but a lot of in-person instruction. Um, and so- Then the second year we added two new schools.
The year after that we added two more. The year after that we added four more. Then we also started to license that to other Goodwills around the country. And, you know, today I'm on the board of the one in Washington, DC. We have two schools now, and likely have a third in a couple of years. And I think there's now 60-plus Excel Centers around the country serving tens of thousands of students.
And I was just reading a, a, uh, University of Notre Dame did a study of, of, uh, graduates of the Excel Centers, and they found that the economic outcomes of the graduates are amazing. Like tens of thousands of dollars after they graduate and are, uh, you know, they have a credential that they can take into the workforce and their income is rising tens of thousands of dollars. So people who are on public assistance no longer are on public assistance and actually are paying taxes.
And, you know, if you've got someone in their late 20s or early 30s, they're gonna be paying taxes for 30-plus years. And so the return is amazing. Um, and so every state we've been in where we talk to the legislators, they're like, "Oh yeah, we need, we need more of that." So that was a… That really got me back into education and fired up that, that innovation thing. And I honestly tell people I'm more of a problem solver.
Like, here's a problem, how do we go about do- fixing that and then, uh, create something? Yeah, I love that. I'm, I'm just curious, when you said, you know, it wasn't working- Yeah you launched, you had this idea- Yeah … of what it should look like, and then you, you, you pivoted. Yeah. What was it that, that, that existed originally and- Yeah … and, and why wasn't it working?
Yeah, this, this will probably come as no shock to the, to your listeners, and, uh, w- probably something we should've known then. Our original idea was, "Hey, we're gonna use a lot of, um- Online instruction, and we're still gonna have supports around them, so we're gonna have teachers and life coaches and all those things. But it's gonna be self-paced 'cause we think, you know, students are gonna come at different levels. We'll let them advance at their own pace.
And then again, it was around October, November, we went, "Oh, wait a minute. Every single student here has quit something that they knew was really important, and so their general s- uh, level of self-motivation probably isn't incredibly high." And so, 'cause what we found was they just were spinning their wheels and nothing happening, nothing happening.
And we started to see, when we started to do, like, some small group instruction with some, with some students, we're like, oh wait, then they start moving. And so that's where we said, "Okay, look, we really do need to keep this as flexible as possible because adults have different needs. They're gonna, they're gonna float in, they're gonna float out because of, you know, stuff their kids have going on or they picked up another part-time job."
But You do have to have high quality teacher-led instruction for them, and setting some deadlines for them to help them go, "Oh, wait, this is something I can do." And once we did that, then people took off. They, they were able to amass credits quickly, 'cause we knew that if someone came to us with, you know, no high school credits, we couldn't have them put their life on hold for four years. So you had to integrate a bunch of stuff.
So we did integrated classes like English and government and, um, you know, other social studies. Like, being, bringing those things together so that they could earn multiple credits in one class, that really helped people accelerate. And once they started to accelerate, then it became self-fulfilling. It's like, "Oh, wait, I'm really moving towards my graduation. I can get there." And so, uh, yeah.
But that, those first few months of self-pace on your own, that… And again, I think we found that during the, uh, you know, pandemic. Uh, students who were kind of on their own just didn't do well and still aren't doing well. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
Well, I, I'm on a board for a charter school that works for, with, uh, pregnant parenting teens- Mm … here in Idaho, and, um, just this last year kind of flipped the, the learning model from more of a traditional kind of structure to self-paced- Mm … with, with still a teacher in the room and… But, um, they're still trying to figure it out. Yeah. So I think this would be, you know, it's… Th- they have some elements, I think, of what, what you're talking about.
Yep. But I think they're still, they're still trying to figure out how do you, how do you get these kids oftentimes that are, you know, well behind- Right … um, fast track to a, to a degree. And one of the thing- things that, uh, we, we haven't talked about, I don't believe, with them is, is the idea of the, um, integrated kind of coursework- Yep where you're kind of getting multiple credits for, from one type of experience. That's right. So, yeah.
W- so, um, I mean, I, I could probably spend the whole podcast just talking about the Excel Center. Yeah. I'm, I'm really intrigued with, with that, but we'll, uh… You, you have a lot of other things- It- … going on, so we'll, we'll skip that. Um, but, uh, yeah, Excel Center and just m- how many different states? Just, just so to clear. Oh, gosh. I, I think- 15 different states. Um- And they're all kind of following the same- Yeah … model that you evolved to? They do.
Yeah. Okay. They're all f- and they're all affiliated with Goodwills across the country. Okay. Um, and I think, actually, I just saw something today, looks like Puerto Rico is the next one to come online, so. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. And y- do they… Do, do you have any, like, touchpoints with these schools, or are they kind of just like adopt a, a program and, and almost like a franchise-type, type deal? It's, it's somewhat of a franchise.
I think the Goodwill of Central Indiana, which still cen- quote-unquote, "Owns" the concept, um, they have a team that works with, um, all the different states. Now, you'll see some individual differences, um, based on local needs and, and so forth, but- Sure … really, they're all, they all follow the same ba- basic pattern. Five terms a year, eight week… The terms last eight weeks. Um, they do rolling enrollments out of those terms, um, rolling graduations.
So it's, um, yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty unique. Again, I've gotten to stay involved, uh, I… since I went on the board of the, of the, uh, Excel Center in DC. And so I was actually just out there. They had their 10th anniversary. And this, this coming year they'll hit their 1,000th graduate.
Um, and even in a city the size of DC, if you take 1,000 adults and g- take them from not having a diploma to having one, plus some kind of credential, you start to notice that in the workforce and then the impact on their children, because now th- now they're not the child of a dropout, they're the child of a graduate who's now has higher level employment. That child's, um, graduation status is likely gonna be really strong, too. So I think you start to see this generational impact of that.
And as you get the numbers up, you really do start to feel a difference, um, in the city. You know, I'm curious, um, you know, for, for our listeners, you know, you might have a listener out there that's, you know, high school principal that, you know, in a traditional public school or even, you know, it doesn't matter, private- Sure, yeah charter, whatever.
And th- and they're, they're trying to figure out, you know, how do we, um, provide a better maybe environment for these kids that fail the traditional system? Yep. Um, and they're probably not in a position just to go start a charter school- Right, right … or adopt maybe the Excel.
Like, what, what are some like- Yep ingredients that maybe kind of any, any principal- Yeah … should- that's listening s- should say, "Okay, I, I need to, I need to rethink how we're doing X- Yeah, yeah … move closer to Y because that's showing success"? Yeah, and I think my, my answer, and I, at some level put my state board of ed hat on. Um, as I talk to my peers around the country, almost every state board has some sort of waiver, freedom to…
Like, if the schools have an idea, typically most state boards are saying, "Bring us your ideas. Like, we'll, we'll listen to it," right? And, and even there are some things where principals will say, "Well, I'd want, I want to do this thing, but we can't," and the reality is they actually could. Like, there's, there isn't anything that prohibits it.
So a great example, um, I've got a good friend that runs a, um, it's a small rural high school here in Indiana, and he has, um, a set of kids every year that he knows, just as you described, are probably not on a track to graduate successfully. And so he has created a sub group within the school that says, "Hey, look, you're gonna come in here.
We're going to… If you're in…" And again, looking at interest, whether you're interested in manufacturing, interested in construction, interested in something, right? That's, we're going to actually teach every subject In the context of that. And so they'll spend, um, and really starting their freshman year, spend part of their time out of the building understanding and learning about the thing they're interested in.
And then the rest of the time they're in, but it's… they're not going math to English to social studies to science. They're doing everything in the context of that, and team teaching a lot of that. And what he's found is the engagement of those students goes off the charts. Um, kids who had chronic absenteeism in middle school or their freshman year, all of a sudden are like, "Well, no, I'm coming to school because I get to go do this thing." And he literally didn't have to do anything.
He didn't have to ask for a waiver. It's like you're still teaching the courses. You're a certified teacher who's granting the credits. There's like no one comes in and polices how you teach, and so he's been able to do that, and he's-- I would say he's one of the more innovative, uh, superintendents in the state, um, or in the country for that matter.
Um, 'cause he also started his own charter micro-school, um, that's adjacent to his district, and he's pulling a lot of kids who were previously homeschooled back into the public system, um, because he's got a really flexible system and, you know, the kids love it.
So there you have a traditional public school superintendent who's doing innovative things within his district and started a charter micro-school, um, kind of off to the side, which now is gonna grow into a network of micro-schools around the state. So I think the answer my-- to your question, there's almost no limit to what people can do. They sometimes get stuck.
I remember I was talking to a principal one time, I said, "Hey, what's the most innovative idea you've ever had? Like that you, you're almost scared to go ask your superintendent 'cause you think you were crazy." And he looked at me, he goes, "Man, if we could just do a double block trimester." I'm like, "All right. Sure. Yep. Double block trimester, that'll change everything." Like y- it's… People get stuck in this like th- like there's almost no limit to what you can do in the public systems.
Um, and I tell people all the time, like try to break out. And I-- by the way, one of my criticisms of the charter sector is by and large, while the outcomes are generally better, we have a couple studies that just released here in Indiana that shows the charter sector has outperformed their peer districts in growth of students since the pandemic. Like, so we got some really strong evidence. But I don't think anyone would say that the sector has been terribly innovative.
Um, they're probably better run. They've got more, you know, they've got people that work really hard. But if you walk into the school, you still see kids sitting at desks and listening to a teacher and taking tests. Like it, it doesn't… We haven't really changed much of anything. Um, again, there are some that kind of push the boundaries a little bit, but I think that's my challenge to the charter sector here in Indiana is take advantage of the freedoms you got.
Like no one says you have to keep a kid in a, in a seat for 36 weeks to get a credit in algebra. Like if they, if they can do it in 12, do it in 12, like, you know, or if they need to take 50, take 50. Like there's no Nothing says you have to do that other than that's how it's been done.
And I think that's, you know, kind of back to our point when we started, like there's… If we're gonna get rid of the Carnegie Unit and all those things, which by the way, the Carnegie Foundation is trying to get rid of the Carnegie Unit. Like, that's, that's their, that's their new mission, right? And we've gotta, we've gotta start pushing to make that happen. Yeah. We think it- if they're behind it Yeah. Right, right. That, that should, uh, be enough, I guess. Yeah. Maybe not.
Um, micro schools- Yeah … have been, you know, a, uh, I was just meeting with a, with a, um, leader similar, in similar role to you in a different state yesterday, and we were talking about micro schools, and he's actually starting his own, uh, with his wife, um, in Colorado. And, and it's, it's, it seems like it's really… I mean, the, the micro school movement track is, is really gain- gaining a lot of traction. I know it's not necessarily a new thing.
I think, I think they've been a long time, but for s- for, you know, post-pandemic, it seems like they're really gaining traction and, and I can understand why. You know, there's some challenges with it, I think that are still trying to, to, to figure out and, and, and things like that. So what are you, what are you seeing in your state- Yeah … from a, on the micro school th- side?
And m- maybe before you answer that question, how do you, I guess, describe or, or define what a, what a micro school- Yeah is, and, and then kinda what are you seeing in your state? Yeah, no, that's a, that's a great question. I think the definition, 'cause I get that all the time, like, like, "Well, how big?" Like, well, okay, I've seen micro schools with five kids in someone's house to 200 kids in a building where everybody goes, right?
And if… I think what I've come down to is it's more about how the school operates, and if it is largely teacher driven, without a lot of administrative overhead, and there's a ton of flexibility. So in other words, it's not necessarily time-based in terms of, you know, this, this class lasts this long and then you'll get a grade. But it's largely mastery based, a lot of flexibility in, in how kids interact with the school, and a ton of teacher autonomy.
Like, to me, that's a, that's the heart of a micro school. Um, and I think you'll, you'd see that in different places. Um, you know, I went to one- So more about the modality- That's right or kind of structure- That's right … versus the size. That's right. Yeah, yeah. I like that, yeah. And I think we're seeing, you know, as you mentioned, you know, since the pandemic especially, you saw a lot of homeschool pods get created.
And the interesting thing was a lot of those were- More with people with means who could group of parents say, "Hey, we're gonna hire a teacher and, you know, our kids will come together." Um, whereas low-income kids by and large were stuck doing virtual and then had to go back to school when it opened. And I think this idea of a public micro-school really appeals to me, and we're seeing that.
I think we're gonna see that take off here in Indiana because it's bringing kids who might have been out of the system back into the system, or kids who were disaffected in a large district being able to come to something that's smaller, more intimate, but you still can actually track results, right? So I think if you, in some other states where micro-schools are flourishing, where they have universal ESAs, for example, and again, check your local listings on how tightly those operate.
Like here in Indiana, home schools like Have zero tracking. Like, we don't, we don't even know who's in it. You don't have to register, you don't have to do anything, and there's no tracking of your results. You don't take state tests. Um, the parent can issue the diploma and, like, no one knows if they actually know anything or not.
Whereas at a, a public micro school, they, they're, they participate in state testing so we can see how those students are doing, what they know, what they don't know. Um, I think it was interesting, the one I was talking about, Indiana does a through-year assessment. Um, and so instead of one formative end of the year assessment, we do three assessments during the year.
And when a lot of the kids that were in this micro school had never come, had never been in school before, and so when they signed up, their parents are like, "Hey, they're, you know, they did all the fourth grade curriculum and, you know, they're moving into fifth grade." Whereas age-wise, they're a fourth grader, right?
And but when they took this, the f- the first assessment, what they found was they were off the charts in some areas and way below in others, and it really depended on what the parent's capacity was. Like, like they, they- Sure … they read at a middle school level but did math at a second grade level because they just hadn't spent a lot of time on it, right? And so it's a way of kind of evening it out, making sure that everyone is, is moving.
But there's also then accountability, 'cause again, these are public, so they're getting state dollars, and now you have accountability to that school that, yes, you're doing your job in educating the students, right? So I think, um, but there's also a ton of flexibility, um, where some of the students come three or four days a week, some come five because the parent still wants to be engaged or involved.
And as long as the student is learning and, like, the school's responsible for saying, "Yes, you've mastered the material. Where you got the mastery from, whether it was inside school or outside of school, doesn't matter. Like, you're learning. We're making sure that, um, you're proficient. We don't necessarily have to teach everything," right? And so the students then get to have all these different experiences. Parents can still be involved if they want to. And again, some do, some don't.
And but they have a ton of flexibility. And a kids school has like 60 kids in it, so- They can group, regroup, multi-age, right? So you'll have a second grader who reads really well with the middle school kind of group of kids, but then she's back doing math with her peers 'cause she's not strong there. Like, there's ability to… And the te- the teachers, they manage it themselves. Like, they, they talk daily about which kids should be with who, and they group, they regroup.
And I think it's that type of instruction. So again, a lot of it is teacher-driven. There's not a ton of technology, um, but there's also a lot of group work. You know, we talk about durable skills. There's a lot of that problem-solving that's happening. Um, they've gotten Project Lead the Way to develop some curriculum for them that's really helped, um, where the kids can actually, uh, do work, again, inside of school, outside of school, using some of that curriculum stuff.
So anyhow, the point is, we think that that network is gonna grow from a… Now it's a single site. I think next year they'll have six or seven sites. Um, probably grow up to a total of, you know, five hundred kids. And then we think that kind of growth is gonna happen year over year, where we could have ten thousand kids in those micro schools or scattered around the state. Um, and this one happens to be rural. Some of the sites next year are gonna be urban. A couple are gonna be suburban.
And so I think you're gonna see this really interesting mix of students at these different sites, and it's not cookie cutter, right? If you have, you know, this teacher wants to do things one way. Like, here's a Montessori teacher that wants to do something. Like, okay, that's gonna be more of a Montessori base. This one's gonna be more hands-on project base.
Like there's, um… But the point is, going back to the definition, proficiency-based, teacher-driven, um, teacher autonomy, and then a ton of flexibility So let me test some a- assumptions.
Um, for the, for the microschools, it seems that if they're born out of an existing, whether it's a district- Yep … school or an existing charter network- Yeah … or whatever else, um, be much easier- Yeah … to start because- That's right … you have that kind of critical mass- Exactly … support versus, you know, a couple parents or whatever, like, have this idea, or whoever, a teacher has an idea- That's right and they want to go start it from the ground up.
That's a lot harder to doable, and that's how some of them start. Yep. But, uh, it seems like it's a great opportunity really. If I'm a district superintendent and, and I wanna just create more choice within my district, a microschool creates- Yep … a, a really fast track way to do that. It does. It does. And I think it's very attractive to people who have chosen to opt out of the system, um, because they didn't, you know, for whatever reason.
But to, the idea that here's something that's small, it's flexible, it's a ton of engagement. Um, and to your point, no one goes into education going, "Man, I really wanna learn how to do payroll and finance," and like…
So if you have a district or a charter network that already does those things, it really becomes pretty easy to say, "Look, we're gonna have another site and it's microschool-based." And I, I will guarantee, 'cause I, um, right before I left Purdue Polytechnic, we, we started a, uh, our own microschool and we said, "Hey, do we have teachers who would really like to go work in this way?" And people raised their hand right away, and then they took off and ran with it, right?
And I think, I guarantee there are teachers in every school building in the country who are like, "Man, if I could just go run my own thing with, you know… If I could have three of us and we could have 60 or 70 kids, like that'd be awesome." Well, you could do that, right? And again, there's nothing, there's almost nothing special you have to do to, to do it.
You could even do it within your own building and say, "Look, we're gonna… Here are these three rooms at the end of the hallway. They're gonna be their own thing, and we're not gonna, we're not gonna bother them." You could literally do that next school year. Right. Yeah. Love it. I kinda wanna go start one myself. There you go. Um, maybe I'll, maybe I'll get going on that after this podcast.
Um, y- one of the things you talked about, which I love, is talking about learning experiences outside- Yeah … of the school walls. Yep. And, and recognizing those. And one of the things that I've been talking to my 20-something year old daughters, um- recently, and, you know, they're, they're in, they're in really good, you know, places. You know, my daughter's in law school. My, my older daughter has, has got her first, you know, big kid job and those types of things.
But we, you know, we look back and go, it was really the things they did outside- Uh-huh … of the school system. They had great education, don't get me wrong. Yep, yep. But it was the internships that they did, the, the clubs that they were part of, all the things that were outside- Yeah … of the walls that really helped them excel- Yeah you know, and grow and, and also feed their, their, their passions and things like that.
And again, I'm not taking away from their education, kind of their core education. That was really important, too. Um, but other than setting themselves up for opportunity, yeah, you- those things weren't… There's no place to recognize that- That's right like within, within the environment. So what do, what do you see as, um, maybe missed opportunity when- Yeah … it comes to that?
And, um, what can be done to, to better recognize and better, um, I guess, encourage- Yeah … those types of experiences? Yeah, and this is, boy, this is, I don't know if it's the million-dollar question or maybe the billion-dollar question, right? I think it's, as we… So I'll do a couple things.
Again, with my state board of ed hat on, in Indiana, we, we did a lot of stuff with our… We redesigned our diploma, new accountability system, and all of that work was designed to, as our, uh, S- Secretary of Education, Katie Jenner, talks a lot about, is you reinvent high school, right? And it's really about creating conditions that enable that to happen. Um, and so part of the diploma was recognizing that we have these portrait of a graduate things, right?
We, in Indiana, we call ours the Graduates Prepared to Succeed, the Indiana GPS. And it's aspirational, right? And so we want students, again, to have the academic things as you suggested, but we also want them to be great communicators, collaborators. We want them to have responsibility. Like, there's all these things. We want them to be c- civic and digital literacy. And none of those things can really be measured now in some ways, right?
And I think what we didn't wanna have happen is where students or schools go, "Okay, we're gonna create a class on collaboration, and you can take the class, and if you get the credit, then you check the box." Like, no, that's… Are you actually a good collaborator, right?
And I think the, um, the idea, and this is where I see a huge need, you know, everybody talks about AI in education, and I think some of the attention has been misplaced, and it, it really focuses on tools and, you know, s- personalized tutors for kids and, and those are great. Like, I, I… Yes, we should be using those tools and be thinking about it. But I think where AI can really play a role is in, like, the education ecosystem.
Because now, honestly, if, if you're a school principal out there and you've got, you know, 1,000 kids in your high school, you're like, "Well, yeah, I would love to do personalized learning for kids, and I would love to have people be proficiency-based, and so they, they can, you know, they could do things. They don't have to sit in an algebra classroom for 36 weeks. I'd love that.
I got 1,000 kids and, you know, 50 teachers, and I gotta have a schedule, 'cause I gotta know where they are, and I gotta be able to measure this stuff. And yes, I'm sure there's stuff happening outside of school, but I got no way to measure it." And there are no spreadsheets big enough to be able to allow students to move at their own pace and be able to track and maximize your resources, your teachers, in a way that, that you just can't do it. Like, it, it blows up.
Um, we tried to do some of this at Purdue, and we did it in the first year when we had 150 kids. It worked. The next year when we had 300 kids, it blew up, right? You just, the scale got to you. Mm-hmm. But AI can do it. Like, AI can be looking at, first of all, what is a student interested in? What do they want to do post-high school? What are the skills they need to do that, both on the academic side and on the interpersonal, you know, all the durable skills?
What experiences are they having inside and outside of school? And so now we're starting… AI is starting to get all the inputs. Like, they took this, they took this test, and they're doing well in algebra, and they're, they're moving on this, and they are the captain of the dance team, and they're showing leadership, and they're communicating well. Like, and then if they decide they wanna go do something different, now there's a different set of skills they need.
And so I can help them chart a different course. But it can actually then start to maximize your resources. Say, "Hey, look, you've got 30 kids that need this skill." Let's say it's in biology, and so, "Hey, biology teacher, you need to do a seminar that's gonna last a couple weeks, couple hours a day for this group of 30 kids so that they can be proficient." And now they've got that skill, and they go on to the next thing, right?
But then there's a new group of kids who now need that six weeks later, they need the same thing, right? Well, you can't do that without AI. Like, it's just impossible. And so we're-- I would love to see the ed tech sector start to look at that and go, "Wait, we can…" AI is scheduling everything in every industry except education. Right? Now, you have, you have people using AI to create their master schedule, but like, great. That's awesome.
You just- Just building it in the traditional sense … you just automated, you know, the, uh, a dinosaur. So, like, I get excited about possibilities because that could mean fundamental restructuring that can scale. Like, you can do what I just described at a micro school, and we're gonna be doing that. We have-- we'll have some micro high schools next year with kids who are in apprenticeships, right?
And so you can actually then start to capture what the student's doing in the apprenticeship and get both kinda academic, what I'd call little c credit, like they're doing bits and pieces of all these courses and their durable skill stuff. You can capture that, and kids can move at their own pace. Like, you can do that in a micro school. You know, 50 kids, 100 kids maybe.
When you start to scale above that, again, if, if someone's a principal of a three thousand-student high school, they're gonna look at you and go, "You are absolutely nuts. There is zero way I can do that." But AI can. We just don't have the tool set yet. And I-- as I've talked to ed tech people, they're like, "Yeah, you're right, but there's no market for it." Like, well, there's not gonna be a market for it until the tools exist to make it possible.
Like, there's this chicken and egg thing that's going on. So I think… But I think it's going to happen. Like, we'll see that, which then allows us, if we want to, to fundamentally restructure what high school looks like and even going down into some of the lower, the lower grades as well.
Yeah. Well, it really just gets to, um, kind of that per- just truly personalized- That's right kind of, uh, um, you know, we talk about that a lot, but it gets, gets it to the point where it's, um, each student has their own playlist- Yeah … um, within, within their- Yeah … environment. And, and what they do is also feeding their, their playlist. Yeah. Um, if you will. Well, and I, and I like it. The idea that I don't wanna see where all instruction is, you know, an AI bot delivering it. Sure.
This, this lets you say, "Look, I'm still gonna have teachers, I'm still gonna have human beings delivering instruction. I'm just now able to maximize their effect 'cause they're only teaching students who actually need the thing that I'm going to teach at the time they need it." Like, that, that's like the Holy Grail, right? Everyone talks about that. Well, again, you can do that with AI.
It can, it can manage all these different inputs and aggregate it and go, "Yeah, I've got 30 or 40 kids who need this thing. Some might be seniors, a couple might be freshmen, like they just need it. And so I can do it just in time with every kid, and I don't have to have predefined groups of kids moving in block from one thing to another. I can mix and match and, you know… And again, it optimizes everything.
And I think as a teacher, imagine if you went to a group of teachers and said, "Hey, you, you only have to teach kids who really want the thing you're teaching." They'd be like, "Well, sign me up for that." Yeah. Scott, I could ask you and- … and talk about this kind of stuff for, for days. This is, this is good stuff. I was wondering if you were gonna get to AI. When I asked you about the innovation, I thought you were gonna go right to AI. Yeah. I thought I was throwing you a softball there.
Yeah. But you said micro schools, which I love. Yeah. Um, and so that- that's, that's good. Let's see. Um- Maybe the last couple questions.
For school leaders or, or f- school founders, executive directors, whoever- Yeah … whoever listening right now who really want to innovate but feel constrained- Yeah … by the existing systems, and you've kinda talked a little bit- Yeah … about this, what advice do you give them to kinda help them kinda push outside of this box that they feel that they're under?
Yeah. No, I think I, I have a pretty strong belief that almost every state has, has an idea, like, we, we need to move forward with something. And I think, and again, I'm a, you know, ask forgiveness not permission kind of person. Like, there are ways- Oh, my … there are ways you can do this within the existing structures, and it could be pilots. You can start small.
You know, we talked about doing your own little micro school thing as part of your d- Like, those are things you could launch easily. And again, all you have to do is report back to the state what they expect to see. Like, they expect to see a transcript that says, "Here's a, here's courses that kids took, and here are the grades they got." Like, okay. How they did that can be radically different, right? And I think that's my encouragement to people is just do it.
Like, start small and completely voluntary, right? You're not making kids do it. You're not making parents do something they don't want their kids to do. You're not making teachers do…
You can say, "Look, I've got two or three teachers that have volunteered to kind of do this thing, and kids, if you wanna do it, parents, if you want your kid to do it, we'll do it, and we'll learn together." Like, you could do that with 30 or 40 kids, and I'd say I, I would almost guarantee every single high school in the country would find people going, "I wanna do that." And the same thing happens at the elementary level.
Like, you could say, "Hey, I've got two or three elementary teachers that wanna team teach, and group and regroup, and we're gonna do this." And I've… Again, as long as it was voluntary, and you didn't make people do it, like, they would… I think people would jump at it. So that's my encouragement is go, go do it. Absolutely. And I think the, the, the c- cover of, of the pilot- Yeah … makes a lot of sense.
I mean, I remember every time as a school leader I wanted to do something, it was always easier just to put pilot- That's right … in front of it. Um, and it also gave you, like, it's kind of a disclaimer. If it doesn't work- That's right … well, it was a pilot. And, and- And we're learning and adjusting. Yeah … it also kind of prevents you from feeling that, you know, it has to be perfect, you know, before you, you move forward.
It's like, no, we're gonna start somewhere, and, and, uh, this, pilot this and- Yeah … see where it goes. And- Absolutely … and like you, you talked about with the Excel Center is sometimes you start something, and you quickly realize nope- That's right … this is not the right direction, and you gotta pivot. Yep. So. Well, maybe the second to last question. What gives you the most hope right now for the future of public education?
I think it's the, those early beginnings of things like, you know, I talked about the micro school stuff, and the people who are willing to step out. There's enough groups, and they're, you know, they're out there. It's Education Reimagined, Learner Studio, um, XQ. Um, uh, Carnegie is pushing for the… Like, there's this groundswell of people who are like, "Hey, there's gotta be a different way, a better way of doing this," and it's got a lot of really smart people in it.
And I… You're starting to see this- People willing to try, right? I think, uh, like Carnegie put together their high school transformation network, and it's got… It's a mix of charters and districts, and it's like five or six different states, and they're coming together to talk about, "Here's what we're gonna try," right?
And I think you can get to some level of critical mass, and when I see the ideas, and I think I'm gonna be with this group in Chicago next month, and, like, I'm excited to hear their ideas. And these are people who, again, for most part are, are sometimes working in really traditional districts and are like, "Now, we gotta push the boundary a little bit." And I think that gives me hope.
I, I see that, I see the excitement, and I see the infrastructure starting to get built around that, and you're like, "Okay, I really think this could happen." Yeah, absolutely. And you see a lot of policies that have- Yeah … had to change to maybe give a little bit more- That's right space for these things- That's right. Yep … to happen, right? At the state level. So- Yep. Yeah. And we didn't get to that.
Is any- anything that you wanna share from what, what Indiana has done that you're really excited about from a policy perspective? Well, I, I think what I would say is it, it has been a journey, and it's taken… You know, we started on this probably f- I've been on the state board I think six years now.
We started probably five years ago, um, with some of this, and it's a seemingly somewhat disconnected s- series of things, but it actually was really well thought out, and I give our, again, Secretary Jenner a ton of credit. You know, we started by saying, "Look, we have way too many standards, and so let's streamline that." We got our legislator- legislature to mandate it, so we had no choice.
And so we had to eliminate a third of all s- standards across all subject areas across all grade levels. And then of the ones that were left, only a third could be deemed essential. And so taking that and then say, "Okay, now let's redo our assessments," and first of all, we wanna- Was that kind of arbitrary, by the way? It was. It was just kinda like- Yes … let's just- Yes … a third. Okay. Yes. Just- Just- That, that seems about right. Like, that just was kind of that- … that thing. I love it.
Yeah. But what it forced, though, was… 'Cause typically when people get together to do standard setting, every standard is crucial, and all of a sudden they were legislatively mandated to get rid of a third. And so that process happened. And then said, "Look, make the assessments focus almost entirely on the essential standards," right?
And so, and to give a, a math problem, if, let's say there were 100 English language art standards in fourth grade- Getting rid of a third says you're gonna go down to sixty-six. Then making a third of those essential takes you to twenty-two. So now as the teacher, you can focus on the twenty-two instead of the one hundred.
And now you're able to go deeper, and now you're able to start to do things like, we should do some problems and projects and to get some hands-on because now we're-- And we know that the assessments are gonna focus mostly on those twenty-two, and we're doing a through-year assessment. So in the first twelve weeks, we're gonna get an assessment, get the results back in a couple of days, and I know which kids get it and don't, and now I can reteach as I need, or I can accelerate.
Like, so we did that, like non-sexy blocking and tackling stuff. Then it was redoing our high school diploma to give a ton more flexibility to students and schools and really start to encourage this idea of our durable skills, our portrait of a graduate, work-based learning, hands-on. Um, so we did that.
Then we just did the accountability system, which got approved a couple of months ago, which reinforces the diploma at the high school level and at the elementary levels, brings in much more of a complete look at a kid versus just your test score.
And then we got the legislature with the diploma to incentivize schools if they get the-- we have what's called diploma seals, which employment, enrollment, and enlistment seals, that the highest level seals get incentivized by a twenty-five hundred dollar payment to the school per kid. So now the school is highly incentivized to get kids to high-level seals, which creates more opportunities for the students. So everything kinda lined up, right?
So I think And at the same time, we also did science of reading, but you're… You know, I've been reading a ton of studies about that, and states who have said, "Yeah, we're doing science of reading," but they haven't actually invested in the infrastructure to support teachers.
We did that, and we were fortunate in that we have a local philanthropy that's one of the largest philanthropies in the, in the, uh, world that said, "Hey, look, we're gonna pitch in, like, tens of millions of dollars to support cohorts for teachers to learn and really understand the science of reading." And we've seen our reading scores take off. I think I saw something, we've had the sixth-highest gains in the country in reading, um, since the pandemic as, as a state.
So, like, those are things, I think, that have been really well thought out, really well done. The combination of the legislature, the secretary of education, and the state board kind of being in lockstep. Um, so sometimes I talk to my peers across the country, and that is not true, and then it just gets dysfunctional, and you can't get anything done. We've been able to do all this because we've had that, that alignment.
Yeah. Seems like that's maybe the exception, for sure, and not the- Yeah … not the norm. Unfortunately, yeah. So good, good. Great place to be in. Well- Yeah. Well, Scott, this has been a great conversation. Yeah. Um, I, I appreciate your time and, uh, all the… Just learning all the things that you're, you know, you're- you've done and are doing and, and your thoughts about the future of education has been really insightful, so I appreciate your time. Um, so thank you. Yeah. This was fun.
Appreciate it. For our listeners, thanks again for joining us. Um, make sure you come back next time for our, uh, any future episodes that we have. Scott, have a great day. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it.