a podcast where we talk about how gender variation is as ancient as stories about creation. In fact, that's the very first sentence in the new book, Trans Biblical. My name is Katy E. Valentine. This is a limited series podcast and I'm going to bring you authors and friends of the book to talk a lot about gender identities like transgender, non, binary, and so much more, all in conversation with the the Bible and other ancient texts. Let's get started.
Hi, everyone. Katy here, and we're back for another episode of Transbiblical. And today is my story. And I didn't wanna give you just a rambling monologue, so I asked, and she graciously agreed, my co-editor, Melissa Haral-Seller, to come in, and actually, I'm gonna hand it over to her. She's gonna take the reins and guide us through this conversation. All right. just gonna sure I've got all of this stuff here.
Well, thank you, Katy. I think it's wise for us to introduce ourselves a little bit but, of course, every follower of this podcast already knows a lot about Katy Valentine. And I just want to tell you how grateful I am for your having initiated this project You good? Oh, thank you. of the podcast and, and I think it's gone really well. You good? Yeah. Well, let's just get right into it then.
So, why don't we start anyway, just in case there's someone new to the podcast, if you could say a little bit about who you are what, what you do. Can you a little bit and background? Whatever you'd like to do to introduce yourself. Where you're you grew up? Yeah. And I don't know that I've shared a lot about this, Well, I'm a and teach Georgetown for last 20 years. 'cause I'm, you know, always on the other side of the microphone, so yeah. We'll, we'll go for it.
And mostly on philosophy and religion. So, I'm Katy Valentine. I'm a New Testament scholar. I think that's come out in the other the other previous episodes. What maybe hasn't been as visible is that, in addition to my scholarship, I actually don't have an academic position where I'm teaching full-time in a university or college setting. But I also write on history and politics. Instead, I do spiritual coaching, and I do a lot of woo-woo stuff that doesn't always And I'm also an author.
necessarily neatly fit into the academic box. And also have a film company which makes documentaries So I talk about chakras and energy and angels and all that kind of stuff. I became a shamanic practitioner a few years ago, and I promised 10 years ago if I was saying any of this, I probably would've cringed a little bit to say it with an academic colleague, but Melissa is so gracious, and I've found that many academics are actually very curious about this kind of thing.
So yeah, so I do spiritual coaching, small groups, individuals. called The I'm a musician well. I'm actually taking a little break from it right now, but probably by the time most people hear this, I'll be back in the swing of it. Well, mean, I think still kind give them tips tricks along the way. Well, that's really fascinating. I actually see aspects of that kind of insight in your chapter, as that we'll get to. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I'll be curious what you see, and we can, we can talk about it. Yeah Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think you you brought up some good points, For those who, who don't know what was it that happened and think there's a lot need, to make you a co-editor of this book? Christian world for spiritual times. And that's something that's growing in popularity I had to answer that question when you interviewed me. more and more every year. Yes. So the, the sort of dry, dry answer is,
Yeah. I, guess just because she is such a brilliant and thought that, know, and I'll get to the maybe more juicy answer part of it would be great to with her because it in a moment. But the dry answer is that this, this is a need within our kind of very small academic scholarly
guild. And so, the way, the way this works, if anyone's kinda not steeped in the world of academics, which, why would you be unless you're one of the one of the academics who happens to be listening to this, I thought she has very voice I thought is that we all get together like at a big meeting once a year, we would bring perspective to table. and maybe there's other other societies that have smaller Thought thought we would bring a of different ideas to table.
meetings, and we present papers and ideas. And I noticed that there was very little on gender identity. A lot on gender, but most of it had a cis and cis-hetero presumption around gender. And so, I presented a paper back in I want to say 2016 on, actually which was the kernel of what turned into my chapter, it had a small section on the transfiguration in it. And that went pretty well. And also thought that,
I saw a need. The next year, we put forward, you I think it was the next year or the year after, we put forward a panel which you were a part of and many know, creative people, and it was really the first time at, at our conference that we had had a whole panel on gender she is an accomplished writer and I thought experience table. identity. Specifically trans identities. And that was I thought, and also thought accomplished writer and I
a pretty smashing success. You know, people actually showed up. thought bring a lot experience to table. They listened, people were talking about it. Yeah. she is an accomplished and I thought bring You know, if you get more than 10 people in a room at these things, it's, experience to And I thought that, you is accomplished I bring a of experience to the table. it's a pretty good, a pretty good deal. Yeah. I also thought that, thought would bring of experience to table.
We had, I, I would say 80 or 90, I'm sure I counted at the time, in the room when you were giving your talk. also thought that, And so Jay, the other co-editor, and I got together. you know, We had co-sponsored that panel, and said, is an accomplished writer and I thought experience to table. "Let's turn this into a book." So that's the short answer. You know, the, the longer, sort of more woo-woo answer is, and I've shared this several times in Melissa's presence Yeah.
And I also is an but I don't think I've ever shared it on the podcast, is that several years before that, I was driving around in my car and I was in the terrible space when you have turned in your dissertation but you've not yet defended it. And you walk around basically with every muscle in your body tense and your ears are up around your shoulder. accomplished writer thought that we would bring a lot And at the time, I was applying for academic jobs.
And so I was trying to think, what is, what's the next project? That's a question you have to answer. What's your next project after the dissertation? You have to have this, like, 50-year plan lined out. experience to Yeah. I also thought thought table. I had no clue. I had zero clue, And I thought would bring a experience to the table. other than I was just ready to get this dissertation done. I did not know what else I was going to do, except kind of more of the same.
Well, you know, I, I guess I can add something to that, if you don't mind. Mm-hmm. I I think that you know, first Yeah. And I also thought that, you know, she is an accomplished writer and I thought that lot of experience to the table. Yeah. I thought that, you know, she is that we would bring a lot of experience to table. and foremost, I think have to acknowledge lack of spiritual different reasons.
And I also thought that, you she is an accomplished and thought we would bring a lot of you know, I experience accomplished writer thought that we would bring a lot of experience you she is an accomplished think one of the things that comes up lot is just the just and experience the table. And she said I was coming back every week just furious, armed... I was about three or four. My arms were crossed. I was just furious. And she was... Yeah, so completely. And she said, "What? Honey, what's...
What are you so mad about? What's going on?" And I said, "Well, they keep on saying amen." She said, "Okay." I said, "Why don't they say awomen?" So, I've been really aware of just, yeah, That's wonderful. That's so wonderful. Right? And Of gender identity and not making gender you this essential experience for anyone. really appreciate the, the opportunity to be part because I, And so I think that naturally applies to trans identities and, and sort of self-exploration.
think it's very important. Itll be very useful for, for in Well, I have to say, the first publication of yours that I read was I love think or heard as much, as cis women's be a window into the of coming out in one of the Oxford handbooks where you had or trying to come out sort of finding voices. Oh, and trans women's voices.
Yeah. think that's also really important because we don't enough how yeah, where you had done interviews with trans women and especially trans experience transition experiences are think this such a about the meaning of particular passages. I believe the Galatians 3:28 was, resource for both think that's really exciting. was a central one which is part of your dissertation if I'm not incorrect. And I, I found that a very helpful and enlightening article.
Yeah. And I have both interviewed trans men. In part because my own trans experience was a little different. And I so different, yet Yeah. So it's good to... it's good to know that we're individuals, Yeah. It's... It's... So just for this we're recording right now 'cause it's resource. you know? We're not all just cookie-cutter. Yeah. Yeah. It's... it's just... so varied. Yeah. Yeah think is really the which, Yeah. You everyone has such a different story.
transgender read the beyond the, "Oh, this is about being a man or woman," and actually be able Yeah. And those, those... Doing those interviews was so wonderful 'cause people... I mean, it was... It really kinda snowballed. It wasn't... I didn't do like hundreds or anything, but I did a couple of dozen. And once the word got out someone, somehow it got to Peterson-Toscano, who does all the to see some deeper theological issues going on.
like, humor and dramatic interpretations of the Bible and does, Oh. Okay. And I another chapter is more another is on transgender people experience parenthood. then there's chapter on, transgender people experience death book. like, really, really cool stuff. Yeah. Yeah. He does some really neat, like, fun stuff with Joseph and the Skirt, and kinda transness woven, woven through, But three chapters. There's there's hundreds in I think it'd if you put queerness woven through his work.
And he sent me... Someone gave him my number, a link to that, that chapter in the handbook, which should be available somewhere in the comments or, or, and I got this text message that said, "This is Peterson-Toscano." Like, "You're interviewing people. How can I help?" And, like, he got the word out, so all these people were texting me really eager to tell their stories, to tell their stories, to be heard, and that was such a privilege.
And I, I just can't thank all those people enough for sharing their stories with me, most of them anonymously, and a few kind of with their given names. And I'm gonna so Totally. And then, we're also gonna include access to Yeah, or notes. Yes. Great. we'll put it in the show notes, yeah. And sure as well, so then we're gonna articles notes as well. mean, everything great. Virtually every person that's come onto question, they gosh. So stepping back now into the discussion of the book itself,
Joy..." How pronounce her last How do name? Layden. chapter on we all... What's the But we all have trans experiences whether think Joy Transbiblical New Approaches... Yes. so on. does a way that doesn't diminish experiences that parallel to being, not parallel to trans, but a little in them. Is there a part or several parts of the book that particularly Yeah, yeah.
And I think that's really important because are non-binary or non-conforming, might not still sort struggling with a lot of excite you that really you think are going to make a difference that brought you to a new understanding of something that you'd like to share? the same things that transgender people might not know relationships. Theres So I think this is gonna be such a one chapter in particular that like, and that's on transgender experience and sex.
and think it's a really kind of goes some of nuance. great resource for both genders. And helpful to understand how general, but also really But they're all general, I think they're helpful. Yeah, they give insight into what a transgender person is feeling or how, how someone like me responds to a certain situation. So that trans experience is the broader category that we all as humans share. I think she's so right about that.
Yeah. And transgender experience is a more narrow part of how And I'm really excited about it. transgender people experience transness and, and, and so on. Yeah, I agree. It's a really great chapter. Yeah. I think it's gonna so helpful. And then I think the other chapters are all really helpful as Yeah. And I think that, one's gonna Yeah. if I, if I put on my, you know, fortune teller glasses, I think that one's gonna be pretty landmark.
Yeah. People are going to be returning to this, There's a chapter how transgender people experience death then and then refining it and adding to it. another one on how transgender people experience Yeah. marriage parenthood. Since, since I am in the academic ... in terms of, I used to get paid for it anyway. lot of there, and it was really those you kind introduction, but then I also did appendix at So there's Now retired.
things that people can resources mean, I also think the introduction that we did together with Jay Marshall's leadership leading role, is a really helpful intro to a seminary or grad it's just of those there's a lot to it. student who really wants to be... or even a, a colleague who knows about biblical studies or knows Yeah. about gender studies but has never combined them.
and I think that's And this is a way of learning a lot about the history of trans trans experience, really fun to do, but also the way in which trans perspectives have slowly gotten their way into discussions of scripture and the theory 'cause it's kind of like combination of all those different and some of the key points in the literature. So, for anyone in our audience who is in that situation, you know, preparing for their doctoral exams in biblical studies that I was talking about.
So yeah, I mm-hmm. mm-hmm. Read it. Yeah, and that was... yeah, for sure. And that even goes among the other chapters, you know? Yeah, and that, that one was really fun. Yeah. Yeah. one the things that really me reading through was And Jay did the lion's share of that. how much central people play in the Bible.
But my, my small contribution in that is, And though there aren't a lot of trans people in the Bible was outlining some of the church responses, which I have to say this, say this really strongly for the church people out there, which preceded the academic study of trans and Bible. And it was a lot of there are a lot of trans parents who were, saw the gap, wanted resources for their nonbinary or trans kids, people Bible are important. and gosh darn it, they wrote them.
That is amazing. That is not easy to do, and without, most of them, without background, kind of in Biblical scholarship and what makes, And so, there's a lot about how God relates to trans people, what kind of resources there are. I mean, these people are really, really creative, doing really creative things. And so, that was really fun to revisit. and throughout history.
Some of those resources aren't even available anymore, about how God relates to trans people both Bible and throughout history. 'cause they were on like, denominational websites as a download, Yeah. Yeah. One of the really do honor And so chapter and they've just been updated since then. on that which think God relates the But to all the parents out there who were Justin me, who's our co-authors writing those just kudos and thank you.
Cause that, those were the only resources practically that I had when I first started do, reading in this in this world. Yeah, that's really interesting. And think back to own journey for a long time. back things heard as a teenager just the struggles teenager, teaches at United Theological Seminary here in the Twin Cities. and also about how lucky am now be able have conversation with you be able share my story in a way that I And he, hope helps other people.
he wrote a book that's now come out in a second edition lightly altered, I guess, that, that set some of the parameters really for the connection between theology, church experience, because Justin's also a pastor, and his own chapter on the Good Samaritan, So yeah, I'm really reading the parable of the Good Samaritan I think is also very insightful for laypeople and, excited about But really did it because helpful. and those who are specialists. And excited to be able to really that.
Yeah. we're out of time, But let's talk about... Oh, okay. but I just wanted we gave round applause for Yeah. And thank Bible. Expansive, yeah. think there's genders, but then especially so how do we get there? Yeah. So when I was there's a chapter on Justin Tanus doing those interviews essay on trans experience amazing because does bring a and nuance to topic. but lot said relates to trans throughout history. then there's a lot to be God Bible history.
So there's lot to be said about how God throughout and throughout history. Yeah. Yeah. Theres to be how people both in and the Bible and throughout history, history. But we can't go too long before I'm getting to talk about your own essay in the book, which is a favorite of mine, actually, based on the way you, you do the work and, and the insights you bring to it. The title is Putting the Trans in Transfiguration in Mark 9.
Yes. Yes. The famous story of Jesus transfigured in front of his closest disciples and with then some angelic or whatever they are co-conspirators up there on the mountain. Yeah. And I just found your approach, which involves a variety of methods, I think, one of which is comparative archaeology or comparative history of religion which speaks to my heart as a scholar.
But why don't you give us a little overview of your, of your contribution, and especially highlight for us what you think a major takeaway would be for people? Yeah. takeaway Jesus' gender and trans experience in the Bible than the I biological And really important context understand the idea gender is not just but also has social And I Jesus' Well, I love that formulation. There's more to Jesus' gender.
Not that it's more complicated necessarily, I mean, yes, but it's not just that we get it wrong, yes, but the idea that it's expansive somehow. Yeah. And Yeah. That's lovely. I that's really important, especially when think about how gender people in the Bible. Okay. So that's a good takeaway. Yeah. But where do we get... how do we get there? Yeah. So I think one of the asked people, you know, "What, what scripture, if any, is meaningful to you?" several people kept on bringing up the
transfiguration. And the, like, the third time this happened, things that really stands out to me is there's I thought, "Oh, this is not just a one-off, like it's important to one person. This is actually a really meaningful story to many trans Christians." So, well, why? And the nutshell answer that people gave me in a variety of ways was they couldn't quite put their finger on it, lot to be said throughout history. 'cause it doesn't say explicitly.
And so there's a lot to about how relates to trans people both in the Bible and history. But they're like, "Something happens on that mountain."... and something happens to Jesus' body, and I think it's a gender experience. I think there might be a trans experience there. And I thought, "Well, that's, that's a super cool reading. words the are made of words. And I recognizing gender also made up of words woman and boy and
Can I prove it? Can I show it?" Cause I've got, girl to sort of make that distinction between boys and girls. I've got the tool kits of those, you know, hopefully the skillsets to go into, yeah, like you said, comparative stories, ancient religion, ancient experiences, and see if that, if we can make a case for that within the story. So the story itself, I, I look at the one in Mark, but they're really similar in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. It doesn't appear in John.
And so, in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, it really, or at least in two of those stories, the only thing it really says is, "And then Jesus was metamorphized." We translate that as transfigured for a bizarre reason that I can't figure out. And so, Jesus was metamorphized. Metamorphized, I think, for I think that the frame it very much grounded has a clearer description. Right? That implies, when we talk about metamorphosis, we're talking about a big change.
Transfigured kinda has to me that, like, you're transposing something in front of someone, in what we lot sense boys and girls. like it's a screen or something like that. And think that the way you frame is very much grounded in what That's not implied in the Biblical story, but it kinda has that It's, it's got a very lofty feeling, especially the way we King James-ify this story. Metamorphized like, something is happening there.
So, when I look back in the in all of these different stories that circle around the we know about people learn. transfiguration, that circle around this metamorphosis, I found out there's a lot of metamorphosis stories in the ancient world. Scholars have known that. We've talked about it in in with this story of the transfiguration for years and years and years. But many of those stories have a gendered component, Yeah. and that, to my knowledge, had not been lifted up before.
And then as an adult, I started delving into this idea that stories are made up of words. And I always do know what words mean? So we find that often, maybe not often, Because always hearing new time. We don't have any system classifying words. but frequently enough in the ancient world, gods are from... And when you frame in the that frame it, begin as women, become men. Sometimes gods make humans from one gender to another.
it makes Often people become, they metamorphize into all sorts of things of sense to me because think that stories are words. as not only a gender experience. Sometimes people metamorphize into birds or other kinda animals. Birds is a big one. They were really obsessed with people turning into birds. But on occasion, we get these people turning and changing genders. And I don't even like that word. Is that, are they changing genders?
And I also think that recognizing gender also made Whatever the better terminology would up of words because we how people learn. be I'll figure out in the future. Well, for me, it's, it's revealing gender or recognizing gender. Revealing gender. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know how that applies to Mark Nine. But anyway... Right. And sometimes these stories, Yeah.
it was maybe not a willing change, that sometimes god did it as a punishment to people Well, I, I think that the way you frame it or sometimes maybe to keep them safe from another the anger of another god. But occasionally, we do get a sense that gender was confirmed in these changes. There's a couple stories where Jesus is where gender is confirmed. in the very grounded in what And I found those to be really illuminating, and we, we know about how people learn.
we don't often look at it from a or we haven't been looking at that from a, like, trans perspective. And so, in these same stories, there's light that's emitted, there's sounds, there's a lot of things going on that create a divine event in the same way that we might think about that. So, when you look at the transfiguration, the disciples are looking at Jesus in utter terror when Jesus is
metamorphized. They can't figure out what to do with this, and the only thing Peter could think to say is, "We'll, we'll build a shrine. Build a shrine to you and to Moses and Elijah up here." But the reason for their terror is not very clear. I can imagine them feeling overwhelmed. I can imagine them feeling in awe. I can imagine them, like, a lot of things, but why are they in terror? And so, we've said they're in terror 'cause they're seeing the resurrected, resurrected Jesus. And I was like,
"That doesn't inspire terror. That inspire, that inspires something. I don't know. Maybe not terror, though." Again that I I can sorta sense a feeling of overwhelm. But seeing Jesus maybe a rapidly changing body, that confirms Jesus And I expansive genders, I can imagine that being fairly terrifying to some cis hetero Galilean men. think And so, in a nutshell, I think that what, I do think that what happens on the mountaintop here is more than meets the eye with Jesus' gender.
that the way you frame in the essay in the book about the Yeah. question of metamorphosis is very much grounded what know about learn. Because think people learn. No. passage Jesus Mount this world with our own unique experiences ... chapter on Paul and the idea of the glittery body that Paul discusses in 1 Corinthians 15 with this very form, this very same verb that we get in Mark parallels. And, and that's interesting to me.
So we can't... I don't think we can draw a tight limit around this one story in the Gospels and say, "Okay, that's just a that's a strange thing that happened." If you do something that most academics would find improper, and you, you read 1 Corinthians 15 against Mark 9, and so on, still as readers of scripture, I think we're very much allowed and encouraged to do such things.
We could think not that it's a displaced resurrection apparent story, but it is a sign of, of a heavenly identity that any, any person could, histories and cultures and and philosophies and could hope for, you know, spiritual traditions that we other people. in an thinking about all kind come into own unique experiences afterlife kind of situation And that's and religions and spiritual interactions Yeah.
And I was just thinking about how we kind other something that I think about a lot, is the fact that Jesus who's ever lived on this planet, And I was just thinking about how we all kind of into this world our own unique experiences histories and and yet all these different personas that he takes on when Yes. And too. Yeah. And And I think about Yeah. And another possible reflection of all this is the notion that Jesus takes on human form.
cultures religions and spiritual traditions that we into these interactions with people. strong. Yeah. So we get it in Philippians 2, taking on the form of a slave, And, and you know, at the end of the Gospel of Luke too, an enslaved person. And the Gospel of John, where there's another chapter of our book is on the opening of the Gospel of John and the whole
question of becoming flesh. And that's a, a strong from from the viewpoint that Jesus is a divine figure, when who's taking on human form for a period of time, if, if one takes that point of view. Jesus... Thats a very strong metamorphosis , or Metamorphosis. ... as pronounced in, in English, yes. When there were resurrection appearances Yeah yeah, about that. lot, think about terms the fact that Jesus is taking human of Jesus the one that walked of Emmaus,
form period of time. Peoples hearts are... Mm-hmm. the followers don't recognize Jesus. Why not? Why not? How is Jesus looking, how is Jesus appearing? People's hearts are strangely Strangely warm. ... by that. By that description. Then Jesus becomes recognizable. You know, from a, from a super woo perspective too, I mean, I... Some of the work I do is involves past lives, future lives the way our soul incarnates, and over the years in many regions and some of my own
experiences, this... And this is just me, I, you know, this is not a defense or an apology, or trying to persuade anyone but I do think that we come here many times, and in many forms, because our soul longs to experience the variety of humankind. And I think about that a the fact that is taking think about about in terms taking those forms. So we come as many different Well, I'll have to talk about the Outlander, Outlander series sometime with you. oh. Totally, I'm a I'm a fan. But yeah.
Yeah, that. I know it's Scotland, not Ireland, but still. But that's okay, we... Yeah. I'm sure love to me on guest. But yeah. But you know, if we, if we are, Think about that lot, it in terms of just his own purpose in taking on those forms. we I think we long to experience many, many genders to know what many cultures are like, think about just his own purpose in taking on forms. what many languages are like. and think about lot, and I think in terms of... We can't do it all in one lifetime.
Mm-hmm. Just purpose and and it Yeah, that's really fascinating, I was just thinking about how think experiences had. and I suspect there might be an element that you would, you would find of retention of some sort of... I don't know if genetic or other kind of knowledge And one of the things that stands to me is how learn from other people's experiences too. of these other lives or experiences, And you I've lot just the skills or handle it. And so, know, learning be day.
But can be, ourselves when we And you know, guess is compassionate, also learning how more is I'm constantly on every day. or is it all wiped away and then it's totally gone, Sometimes. and we don't learn anything from it, you know? We... Generally we generally I think we are learning personally. Yeah. I think and I think it in terms of just his purpose in on those forms. And think it in Fascinating. But generally what we tend to remember are the his own purpose those forms.
I think about that a think about it terms of... unresolved things that we need to heal. Yeah. And then sometimes we get some happy, happy memories just to let us know that we're, you know, on the right track there. But you know suffering Buddha, Buddha says it well, right? Like suffering does... is a common human experience. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right? So we, we often do remember our suffering, especially when that suffering is unresolved.
Yeah. I think another thing too is that about back when was reading And I think it in terms of... about gender and all of that there were very Well, stepping back again to the book as a whole few people out there who were just like me. what, what do you think is the important role that this book might be able to play in conversations going forward, both in churches or in the world generally?
One since I'm in the US, I, I think a lot about this a lot in terms of our political environment, and I know you are You know, extracted from that for at least the time being, so. there weren't a lot people who looked like or acted or background. Get to because of there who push now, But anyway, whatever you have to say, I'd love to hear. because people social media who thank from bottom of my heart. Yeah. you for and pushed. So I wanna say the Yeah. me now, because of who pushed and pushed.
And the heart. Yeah. And I just say thank helping I am now Yeah. I think about lot, And so I just wanna say thank you from the bottom of my heart. and I Yeah. think about it just those forms. just wanna am now of who pushed pushed and And so I just wanna say thank from the bottom my just wanna say and think about it You know, just purpose on those forms. And about it terms of... Just his own purpose taking on those Or your, your passport.
Yeah. And I thank you helping me be who I am now the people out there who pushed and so wanna from bottom and just wanna think about a lot, and think about own purpose and I think a and about You of... say thank you for helping me be am now, because of all of the people there pushed and pushed pushed and pushed. So I just wanna you from the my heart.... from a bit of a long-term perspective when I can, read through entire days. And it's going pretty well.
and other days, I just come home on my couch and need to cry about it and pick up something inspiring. So I hope that the book will serve as something inspiring for people on the days when they just need to come home on the couches and cry about this 'cause it's, it's tough out there right now. Long term, I hope that the book becomes a classic and becomes outdated, right? That there's new things happening.
But I do have You know, I've, I've said if we were starting this book now, a few concerns about where book comes one the I'd it would look really different. There's a lot more out nonbinary, a lot more out trans people within the scholarly world doing really cool, innovative things that, you know, unfortunately aren't in here, but they're gonna do their own thing, which is just great. And so hopefully building a library and a, a body of work that people can turn to. So yeah.
I guess it's my hope that when someone is feeling like they're not part of the story, they can open Transbiblical and see that, in fact, like have a conversation with you about that. they are part of the story and always have been, Could you quote that opening line for us? that they always have been. Yeah. Yeah. So 1:1, "In beginning, created." So to it? Yeah. Make sure I get it exactly right. It's a very personal story about today. For yeah.
Gender variation is as ancient as stories about And it points fact God is powerful, Wow. ... and probably even more ancient. and plan for always gonna win. But thinking of our audience we're talking about I the first page of the Bible, so to speak. love love that. that's something that I Yeah.
Yeah So, as we start to wrap up we've heard quite think a lot a bit about other things you do, but is there some particular project you're of people are starting wake up to now the last couple years, on right now that you'd like to highlight? Would you like to share some ways in which to be in touch with you? Sure. and fact history to creation, terms and And, if people want that. that's going on right for remember came because also, Yeah. of the Justice.
think really important for us to remember where came from Yeah. I'll put, this project came about because was teaching a course called I'll put links Yeah, yeah. my socials in the show notes, for sure. Theology of Scripture and one the requirements course I'm intrigued. just, Facebook and Instagram are good ways to be in touch. working something where you I've lot of support other people over myself as a small team. I'm trying to be a little more intentional with my YouTube
Mm-hmm. always willing to help other people as well. channel for anyone who wants, wants more woo in their life. academically, I'm working on a volume, co-editing a volume on reproductive justice and, and the Bible, and so looking forward to that. That's a, a while before it comes out. But if anyone wants to be in touch with me about, like, woo shaka stuff you can just go to my website.
And actually, I, I'll have a link on there where you can book, like, a free mini session with me where we do a little energy reading together. So that may be of, of service to anyone who's out there. We can talk about different ways that I help people. So So it depends on if you're academically yeah, I just think it's a really important project, oriented or woo oriented.
Yeah, I think definitely more into the academia of but do think it's important that we came from are, know, because I do starting to lose a little bit of in this day and age. Yeah. You know, I think losing that authenticity and who we are, which important, think helps us forward. So different, right? Yeah. I mean, think it's about the theme that, that threads all this together is embodiment. and I'm glad that Yeah.
Like, we got to Yeah. ... right, how bodies and our bodies are viewed in the world, how they're politicized in the world, how they're weaponized in the world, and how they're also sacred. And so that's, that's the kinda common thread, I think, between these. Was really hoping to get a trans male perspective in the book, talk about but alas, not so far. no, that's fine.
Well Katy, thank you so much for thinking of the notion that we need to interview you and give you space to talk about your approach and your interests and your contributions, which are many and very, That's I'm glad you enjoyed it insightful helpful. very important. And thank you again show with me. Well, thanks for the being on this side of the microphone. I really appreciate it.
Okay Well, I hope to see... I guess I won't see you until we meet in Boston for the next big meeting of Bible nerds and so on. Yeah, Right. For those of you who don't know, yeah, problem at all. there'll be a panel of other scholars responding to our book. And thank you your everyone supported and the work Oh, nice. So that's something to look forward to. that this wouldn't possible. So thank you. Yeah. super exciting. Yeah, thank you so much. Lovely. Thanks, Melissa.
Yeah. Thank you much for listening to Okay. As we wrap up this episode, just a few things I want you to know. First we are nearing the end of this season. It has been so much fun, but we will, there'll be one or two more episodes, and then we'll be taking a break before season 2.
And I'm hoping that season 2 will be bringing in trans activists, trans clergy, people who are in the middle of it in, in churches and in public life, and talk to you about their experiences, and of course, about the Bible. Second, if you would like to contribute to the podcast, of course, there is a link to buy the book there is a link to buy me a cup of coffee as part of the cost of production, and that is very appreciated if it's within your means.
Third you know, I know that the world is on fire. I, I said that earlier in the episode, and it's tough out there right now. I totally get it. Do find ways of staying centered, of staying grounded. You matter. Your personal health matters. Your mental health matters. Do what you can to stay grounded and to stay in there, and reach out to me if there's any way that I can help you with
my services, virtual coaching. I have some free meditations, things like that, to, that I'm more than happy to pass on your way. I'll make sure that my email is also in the bottom of the, of the show notes, so you can reach out. So we'll see you in the next episode, and I'll keep you up-to-date with the with the rest of the season and the future of the podcast. Thanks so much.