The Radical Good Samaritan: A Trans Perspective

Welcome to Trans Biblical, a podcast where we talk about how gender variation is as ancient as stories about creation. In fact, that's the very first sentence in the new book, Trans Biblical. My name is Katy E. Valentine. This is a limited series podcast and I'm going to bring you authors and friends of the book to talk a lot about gender identities like transgender, non, binary, and so much more, all in conversation with the Bible and other ancient texts.

We do have a special discount on the book right now for 40% off through the publisher, Westminster John Knox that you can find below in the show notes through May 10, 2025. Let's get started. This is the very first full length episode of Trans Biblical. And today, I am so pleased and honored to welcome Reverend Dr.

Justin Sabia- Tanis. Hey, Justin. How are you? Good. How are you, Katy? I'm great. Justin is a contributor to the book and Justin and I have known each other for a long time now. Yeah. And so it's such a, it's such a delight and pleasure to be able to read your work in this way and to collaborate on the book. So why don't you just start off with telling us who you are and what you do, the kind of scholarship that you work on.

Sure. I am an associate professor of Christian Ethics and Social transformation at United Theological Seminary in the Twin Cities in Minnesota in the United States. And I work, teach classes mostly on social change the environment and queer and trans theologies. I've been a minister, a scholar, an activist. I've worked in public, public policy work on behalf of, of LGBTQ people for, for a long time as well as pastoring primarily lgbtq churches. I'm now a pastor with the United Church of Christ.

And yeah I'm delighted to be in a place where I can bring all of those pieces together. So I really come to this writing as really thinking about this from a pastoral lens as well as an activist, activist lens. And I also wrote about trans theology a long time ago, almost 25, 25 years ago. So I've been, have been writing and thinking in this area for, for a little bit now.

Yeah. So, Justin, you have a landmark book called now called Transgender that was republished about six years ago or so and that was the original publication date was about 25 years ago. Is that I think it was 2000. okay? So 20 something years ago. So if you haven't read that book, I highly recommend it. And you were really one of the first people to write an entire chapter on the Bible in that book, which was really helpful for me when I first started diving into this about, about 10 years ago.

And I've talked to so many people who told me that that book literally saved their lives. So if it's not on your bookshelf, get it on your bookshelf. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I've been really humbled at the impact that it's had on people and what people have shared with me about, about how it influenced their journey. So. Yeah, Yeah, so it's it's, it's, it's a standard. But I think it's also continues to be so relevant just given everything that's happening in the world right now.

So. Yeah. I think we have a good hint, but tell us why, why say yes to this project, to being a contributor to Trans Biblical? Yeah a couple of reasons. 1, I think that the time has really come to explore how trans people are contributing to, to the religious conversation. And so I think the time is right for you know, really trans focused volume on, on issues of the Bible. I also am really motivated by the fact that readings of the Bible around gender identity are so incorrect in the popular

imagination. Right. That it is just so vastly inaccurate that people have taken so sort of social prejudices against trans people and kind of impose those on the Bible in a way that's very inaccurate. Right. The Bible has so many positive things actually to say about about gender differences or, or just including characters figures in the Bible who, who do have a variety of genders that the, the sort of anti trans reading of the Bible just, just isn't accurate.

And so I felt really, felt it really important both for sort of the sense of biblical accuracy to, to talk about those issues, but also for trans people ourselves and for our families to see that, that what people are saying is in the Bible is not accurate to what is actually there and that it could actually be a resource

for us. You know, I think with, for sexual orientation the Bible is more complicated, but for gender identity there's that it's actually does not have, it actually does have a very positive inclusive message.

And so it was one of those things that as a scholar, as a preacher, as a pastor, it really irks me that people were reading it inaccurately and failing to see the real riches that were there around gender identity that might inform how we live our lives as trans people, but also for other people to think about how to include trans people in communities.

What are one of the passages that people really kind of impose their. Incorrect viewpoints on that comes to mind. One that comes to my mind is like Genesis 1:27-28. It's so interesting that that's held up by really variant communities as either inclusion or exclusive. Right I mean, I think the idea that the Genesis somehow imposes that there's only a binary and there's no in between spaces just doesn't seem even remotely accurate to our experiences

of the world. You know, it doesn't switch from day to night with a light. Right. Right? I mean that every one of those categories from the plants and animals to land and sea to air and sky, It like all of these things have liminal intermediate zones in which there's blending. So there, every one of them is a spectrum. Any even those, those spaces, those in between spaces like dusk and dawn are some of the things that we value most. So why would sudden.

Why would that be true of all of those categories? And suddenly for, for gender it's it. Or for you know, biological sex, somehow that's different than the whole rest of the passage. That seems, that defies logic to me. And so it's a very simplistic Yeah. reading that fails to see the sort of the goodness of creation itself. And even God's inclusion of God's self as both male and female I think is modeled right there. That there's. That there's more richness

to the story. And so Yes, that imposition of a simplistic reading. Yeah, that, yeah, that's, that's one, you know, we, we hear all the time. So readers, you can, you can look at our volume and practically anywhere that talks about gender identity in the Bible. We'll, we'll talk about that. And, and there's some helpful, lots of different helpful ways to look. Yeah. Look at Genesis 1 in particular,

plus others. So well your, your chapter in this book is on the Good Samaritan, which is, you know, it's such a fan favorite and I just love what you did with it. So brief overview of some major takeaways that people might have after they read your chapter.

Yeah I think one thing that's really important is to think about what the role of Samaritans was at that time. And in this particular story in Luke that Jesus actually was trying to go to Samaria. And he sends his disciples ahead to sort of as an advanced team to get ready for that. And they throw them out. And so, you know, there's this call for fire and brimstone to rain. There's this very negative interaction that Jesus is basically rejected by the people of Samaria.

And instead of going along with these calls to you know, denounce them or you know, any of these things Jesus tells a story about the people who just rejected him as the neighbor. And I think that's so such an important. Like that there's the content of the story which we're all familiar with, but this context of the story is also so important. Because it says when we are rejected by someone Jesus is living out that acceptance

of the enemy. That's the, and the lifting up of this hated others, this rejecting other category of people as this spiritual exemplar of, of one of the most important commandments. Right? One of the two most important Its commandments is lived out by this person who is seen as other. And in a world in which there continues to be rampant discrimination, fear hatred against transgender and non binary people, to say, we can be, we, we fit that example we are this rejected other.

And yet Jesus can lift us up as an exemplar of what does it mean to show mercy, what does it mean to be a neighbor? And I think that's a real challenge for, for all of us. In the chapter, not only though, do I put this trans person as the, as that person, but also what would it mean for a trans person to experience someone we see as the reject as the rejecting other to be the Samaritan as well. Because I think these stories are spiritual resources for all of us.

And so queer and trans people still should get the benefit of the challenge of Jesus's teaching. Like we still get to the right to be the beneficiaries of that. And so that also means expanding our minds to say, how might we see the humanity or the neighborliness in those who oppress us? Just as Jesus was doing with the, with his experience with the Samaritans there. And so I think this passage is, yeah, it's a story we learned in Sunday school, or we learn, you know, we learn as children.

And yet it's radical. Yeah

And in, you know, the time when you wrote this, we were in a very different administration than we are right now. And so that lesson seems tougher Oh yeah. right now than it did, you know, a couple of years ago when round one was completed. When I was absolutely, I mean one of the things that I was reflecting on in preparation for this conversation was thinking, oh my gosh, like the situation is so much worse than when, when I was.... Yeah So much more dangerous.

The the codification into law of explicit discrimination against trans people, the systemic exclusion of trans people from public spaces is far worse. And so the, our need to learn from stories like this to learn what does it mean to show mercy, what does it mean to show kindness, what does it mean to embody the neighbor is far more urgent than it was when I wrote the story and so wrote the chapter.

And so I was kind of I'd say I was kind of floored by just how just that difference in a couple of years how that has impacted us in our communities. And I think it speaks to the timelessness of the Good Samaritan. It is a story that continues to be unfortunately so relevant and, and the so the timelessness of the Good Samaritan, but also the very specific context where we can reinterpret it and experience it. So I, I love it that that's the story that called to you for this project.

Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Well this is so everyone can grab the book. If you haven't read the chapter it, And this is, this is also, I think it's great for scholars and I think this is also a great chapter for really curious adult Sunday school classes and readers too. And so that it'd be. It make a great two or three Sunday session. For those who are, who are curious about that. So we talked about it a little bit, but let's get into it even a little more. This is very relevant right now.

Maybe just continue to talk to us a couple of reasons about your commitment and your reasons

and passions for, you know, doing this work and continuing to do this work. yeah. I mean, I think, I think one thing that's really important is that we Constantly need to rehumanize people who are othered in society or who are demonized in society. We have to continually recognize that these are human beings we're talking about. And it's one of the most important tactics against authoritarianism, against politically motivated, socially motivated violence.

And so in reading these characters and sort of creating characters of modern equivalents Its to play out in the Samaritan story, that was one thing that was really important to me is how do we see the other as a human being worthy of care? And I think recognizing that trans people are sacred that are, we are part of the sacred story we, we matter in the sacred story is one way to push back against forces of oppression and discrimination and even violence that people see us that way.

And so recognizing the parts of the biblical story, including the blessings to eunuchs and Isaiah the, the baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch like that, all, all the different ways we can see trancestors, see our antecedents in the biblical story, recognize that we're part of the sacred story. Thats one way I think that's that's really important as part of this process of what we're facing right now and also holding ourselves accountable.

I talk, talk in the chapter about holding ourselves accountable to the specific, you know, trans people and non binary people who are facing the worst of the discrimination and violence in our society. That biblical scholarship to my mind as an activist and as a preacher is not about simply playing the text for its own sake but saying how do these positively impact people in the world right now?

And I would say, I guess another motivation for me is you know I've been very out and I'm going to continue to be out and be unafraid and speak out about the blessedness of our communities, about the, about the humanity, about the joy in our lives, all of these things. Speaking positively as a trans scholar and speaking positively about the Bible and scholarship around the Bible these are really important to me as a way to resist the forces in our society, society right now.

Its necessary that we, we take, we have courage and we speak. One of the things I love about your chapter is that the Good Samaritan is not obviously about gender identity. Right. Or about, you know, I don't know, it's obviously about gender, I guess at all.

And so I love it that you've taken the story and you've read that from a very particular perspective that talk about that lend themselves more to this kind of conversation and that you're able to bring the, your perspective into a story that's such a golden story

Yeah, well, for us. yeah. And I think this is because, because you know, queer and trans and non binary like folks, we all deserve the spiritual benefits of the teachings of the Bible. If, if we want to access those, not everyone does. But, but for those who want to, to learn from this story of Jesus, it is still our story. It is still, we have a, we have a spiritual right to to, to access these texts and understand what they might speak to us and how we might learn

from them. And so that's, that's one reason it's important to me to bring these, to bring these, to bring these stories into a modern context is so that we can continue to benefit from, from reading them for, for our sake as well as. You know, it's very easy to say, oh, those other people, they don't get what the Good Samaritan is, but I do. Yeah Right. But I think it, you know, it's a story that should, should come 360 degrees

and help us see. Yes, that's true about others, but it's also true for ourselves and what we might learn from it. How do I continually challenge myself to be that kind of neighbor? I love it. Its so exciting. So tell us. Yeah, tell us what else you might be working on and where, where people can find

you and find your. yeah. So a lot of my work right now is my teaching. I'm very excited right now to be teaching classes on social transformation, on eco justice, on queer and trans theology. As a, I mentioned working with incredible students here at United Theological Seminary of the Twin Cities. The other projects I'm working on, I'm finishing up some work on queer artists.

A book that was part of my dissertation and sort of a spin off from that and looking at the ways in which we can learn about spirituality that exists outside of religious institutions by examining the work of queer artists art as a lens into, into communities that may not have always been included in our theology or our scholarship. And so I'm very excited about that project which I'm just wrapping up. And I'm also started work on a volume on queer and trans ethics.

Thinking about ethics in a broad perspective because so, so much of the ethical conversations have been about sexual ethics or the ethics of gender transition. And these are important questions. But there's so much more about how we create families, how we look, live in the world, how we understand ourselves as ethical beings. And so there's a little flurry of writing on queer again, lesbian ethics in the 90s and some very specific volumes recently.

But I'm really interested in how do we look holistically at those questions that really rises out of questions my students have asked in classes. So I'm starting work on that. Awesome Great. If people want to follow you, are you on any particular social

media channels that are your favorites? I'm on Facebook and, and Instagram and I'm just got started on Blue sky. Okay, we'll put all your handles. Handles underneath there. I'm just barely on blue sky, too, so let's like each other, and Yeah. So I don't have any fancy type fancy handles, but that's fine. Yeah, we'll put all those. So awesome. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for everything you've done, and this is such a pleasure, from beginning to end. Oh wonderful to talk to you, Katy.

Thank you so much for listening to this first full length episode of transbiblical. It is our pleasure to bring it to you if you are wanting to dive deeper into this topic. Of course, the link to buy the book is below and you have your 40% off discount.

That's good through May 10, 2025. If you'd like to support the podcast in other ways, there's a little link to buy a cup of coffee for the creators. It just helps offset some of and the time that goes into producing this. Most of all, we want you to live your most authentic full life. If you are gender variant, gender diverse, trans non binary, know that you are supported and this podcast is one small way that we are offering some support. Let us hear from you and see you in the next episode.