Before we get into this episode, if you're listening on Apple Podcasts and you enjoy listening to this show, please take a second to leave a review. It will help boost the show so that others struggling in a toxic workplace can find it. You can also go to my website ToxicWorkplacePodcast.com to send me a message or, if you have a story to share, send a submission request. Your story will be completely anonymous and it will help thousands of listeners manage their own toxic work experience.
So I knew about this position because I was an intern. It was a position as a therapist within like an education institution. It was perfect with what I want to do. I went to school for social work, and I had like a background of doing summer camps and all of that with kids. I was just excited to be able to do this on my own and now like be able to provide mental health to kids that I wish I had when I was in school.
This is Cassie. Cassie received her master's degree in social work, and with the help of a college advisor, she found a full-time position as a school therapist. With this organization, there are a lot of different locations that you can work at. So within this position, your direct supervisor is never on site with you. They are all on one other site, and you just contact them via email if you have any trouble.
What's interesting about this job is the site directors don't have any power over you. They're basically not your boss. They just kind of guide the values of the educational institution. Their values and their motive is all about kids getting the test scores that they need, but my motive was like making sure that kids' mental health was well. So that's two different driving forces. The organization Cassie applied to acts sort of like an agency for therapists and social workers.
Once hired, she would be placed within a school to work as their resident therapist. Cassie had great expectations for this new chapter in her life and was excited to put in the work. But once she stepped foot within the walls of this institution, she could see that they weren't willing to accept her as anything more than an outsider.
My name's Carleigh, and this is Toxic Workplace, a podcast that gives a platform to those who have survived highly toxic work experiences only to come out with newfound wisdom and a renewed sense of self. A toxic workplace is more than just the daily grind. It's a soul crushing experience that will chip away at your sanity until you're about to lose your mind. It's an abusive relationship that's hard to leave. And the longer you stay, the more you lose sight of who you set out to be.
I was super excited because everyone gets different locations and I was super excited because it was near my house. It was in a beautiful neighborhood. And so I remember the first day that I went there, I wanted to make a good impression. So I put my best makeup on, my outfit on, and I get there and it is like no air conditioning. It's hot. I'm sweltering. I'm like, oh my gosh.
And so when I first arrived, I met a couple of key people, which was the director of the site and then their assistant directors. And so I remember their faces when they first saw me, one because I am pretty young during this time. I'm in like my early 20s. I'm a woman. And then also additionally, I am a woman of color. And so one thing I learned in this setting was it was a majority white neighborhood with a lot of influence, a lot of money. And the school mirrored that.
And so a lot of the educators were white women who came from a lot of money or were middle class and kind of didn't work with the population that I was planning to work with. I was thinking that it would be diverse, especially because of its location. But once I set foot in the school and saw everyone and then additionally, when I saw the majority of parents, that's what really told me that this is what the school was.
And also, I figured out the behavior of the school, especially because when I first was introduced to everyone, it was kind of like they looked at me like, oh, you're the full time therapist. Oh, like this is someone that we really don't interact with as much. I don't know what to say to you because you have a lot of identities that I have not really interacted with daily. And then also trying to vet me out to see if I am actually supposed to be here. So like, well, what did you do before this?
If it was an answer that they like questioned, the room felt silent. And it was like, did I say the wrong thing? It felt like there was a guard up or like they were a superficial hello, but they wanted to stop there. There was no other conversation. Or like if I did meet them earlier in the day, they could walk right past me and not say anything to me. And I'm like, I just met you. Are you going to not look at me anymore? So it was very interesting.
And I figured that maybe it was just because it's a new person. But also, I experienced that from the parents of this school. I remember they had like a welcome back just for the parents. And I was like, oh, maybe I'll go and just, you know, introduce myself. And I remember feeling so odd, feeling so different and feeling like no one wanted to speak to me. There are a couple of times that I like try to go up to a couple of people and just say hello and introduce myself.
And they just looked at me. And so I left early from the event and I just sobbed to my mom. And I was like, I don't know how I'm going to do this. I don't know if they're going to like me. It just feels like this is not a good fit. If you've ever been the new kid in school, you know the feeling of being looked at as an outsider. But Cassie's experience goes beyond that. She's not a kid. She's working with other professional adults. And she's a minority person in a non-diverse institution.
Other than the initial superficial small talk, it was clear Cassie's new colleagues didn't care to get to know her or engage in meaningful conversation, including the parents of the students. It wasn't for the lack of trying. She felt isolated and alone from the get go. And it didn't help that the office they put her in was far removed from the rest of the school. My office was outside of the main building.
So it was still on campus, but it was outside of the main building and it was in a little shed, basically. I shared this office with another part-time coworker who was like there only twice a week. I just remember like being so excited that, yes, I have my own office. It has these amenities. I get to be like, kind of self-decorate and all of that. And then over time, I noticed I was like, this shed is shanky and shitty. Like it would smell like mold when it would rain.
It didn't have an air conditioner on. So I had to bring like five fans. And then when it snowed or rained, it was terrible because the kids didn't want to go out there. It's slick out there. They had to run to the office. The Wi-Fi out there was terrible. I had to go inside sometimes and do my work. It just was like, why am I out here and everyone else is in the building?
They also didn't respect my office most of the time because they would bring in different things from like other areas of the building. Just be like, we need to store this here for a week. I'm supposed to have a big group of kids who have a hard time focusing. How are they going to focus with drums sitting all around them? Like it's not going to be helpful. My students even complained of the smell because I was new and I was afraid of being a person of trouble or I didn't want to complain.
So I was like, you know what, I'm just going to take this. Let me put up some posters on the wall. Let me get an essential diffuser to make it smell good. And so I just did the best that I could. Already feeling like an unwelcome outsider amongst her colleagues, Cassie's storage shed of an office made her feel like she was on a remote island, completely disconnected from the rest of the school.
Having a shed so far from the building kept Cassie from having casual interactions with teachers and students, the sort of interactions that build friendly relationships. When Cassie did interact with teachers in school administration, her professional judgment was constantly being questioned or even disrespected. At first, this constant questioning pushed her to work harder to prove herself to no avail. I definitely felt like I was being critiqued a lot.
I felt like I was being monitored like severely where someone needed to be with me. I had a co-worker who I'm going to call Lucy. She worked in a similar position as me, but she didn't need to legally see kids. She provided support to the school. It felt like me and her had this competition. A lot of times I was called to support my specific students and she would be there and she would be overriding the things that I was recommending.
So if I was telling them to, OK, maybe we need some silence because the talking is not helping you still screaming, she continues talking with him. It definitely felt like, why are you overriding what I'm doing? Do you not think what I have to say or what I'm recommending is right? And it made me second guess myself. Do I actually know how to do this? And after the situations, she would question me. And it felt like how a mother questions a daughter or a parent is questioning you.
And you know, like when someone's questioning you, you get all stammery, even if you're doing something right. It's just like, why are you questioning me? So she would question me about like, did you do this? Did you do that? Did you do this? And I'm like feeling anxious and like knowing I did these things, but I'm feeling anxious because she's asking me and making me feel like I did something wrong.
And it felt like she was told and I say that specifically because the head director, she had her hands in everything. She definitely had what I call minions, people who were able to have an insight or look at everything and then come back and report to her what was happening. And if it wasn't going the way that she wanted it to go, then she was going to step in. And so I felt like maybe she might have told Lucy, watch over her, make sure that she's doing what she needs to.
And so me and her definitely had some difficult moments in the beginning. I was very hopeful because I was like, oh, this is another person who like kind of is in my field. So we'll be able to like help me out with some things. And she was very open in the beginning and being like, I can support you with this and that. But I really knew that our relationship was off when she didn't want to take any of my recommendations specifically. I would say it was like nine months in.
We had some new employees and we were meeting to talk about some student cases, some kids that were having a hard time. And she asked for like some recommendations and I provided them and she flat out said, no, we don't need that. And I can remember like one of the new employees chuckling. And that moment, I was just like, I felt so small. I felt like a child, like bullying. And so it was like she wanted to publicly embarrass me, especially in front of these new employees.
It just made me feel like you were not on my side. None of them had the expertise or had a degree in what I had. And what they were needing was my expertise. There were certain things they wanted me to do if it had to do with a student they didn't want to deal with. But if it was something that they felt like they wanted to control, then all of my recommendations were off the belt and were going to be overriding. It felt like I need to try harder in the beginning.
What do I need to do to make them trust me? And the hard thing about it was I was not sucking at the job. I was doing a really good damn job, especially for my first year and all of the stuff I was dealing with. I was doing an excellent job. And so for them to kind of question everything I was doing or really making me feel like I didn't know what I was doing and maybe I need to leave, which I think was something they wanted to happen. It felt like I was being toted around us.
Oh, we've got this full time therapist now that can help everyone. But when it really came down to when I wanted to implement these structural things, it did not happen. It had to go through all of these avenues. And if they felt like it didn't give their school the view that it wanted, then they didn't want to do it. There would be situations where they would ask me something.
And then if it wasn't the response they wanted, they were like, well, we're going to call someone else from the district to get their point of view. Let's talk to them instead. And I'm like, well, I just gave you the answer. But if you want to call them and have them come out and do all of these things that they're just going to repeat exactly what I did. Go ahead. Winning over the trust of her colleagues was important to Cassie. She's diligent, thorough and specialized in her work.
And getting others to see her input as valuable was a crucial part of the success in this role. She also wanted to collaborate and work as a team with those around her. Sharing ideas, input and resolving issues together is all part of the process when handling behavioral issues with children. But the constant questioning and competitiveness she received from those around her caused her to second guess herself. No matter what Cassie recommended, she was always questioned or ignored.
This pushed Cassie to extend herself even more in order to gain the respect and trust she knew she deserved. In the beginning, it was very much if something was wrong with me, it confirmed to me that I didn't know everything. And so what I did to overcompensate for that was my weekends were like catching up on work and doing this so that I can help this person out just so that they can see how hardworking I was. But like nothing would make them see it.
It was like no matter how many accolades I could get from parents and students, how many successes, they would not trust me. The other thing about this school is the conflict that they would have, they didn't like it. If I was to say, well, I really don't agree with that, then I would have to provide like in-depth protocols. I couldn't really just have just an opinion based off of like the facts that I knew. I felt like I could not make any mistakes.
No mistakes because that meant that I needed someone else to help me. And that meant that everything that I said after that meant nothing. It was not true because I made a mistake. Mistakes are the building blocks of growth. If you don't learn, you don't grow. And usually the best way to learn is through your mistakes. When mistakes aren't tolerated, your development and the development of those around you will be stifled.
Cassie is facing a stunted environment where the people within this institution have a fixed mindset and are threatened by new ideas and the growth of others. A lot of times we would have meetings and it would be supposed to be about, you know, new upcoming cases, not ones that we've already settled and that we have under control, but they always want to speak about mine.
And so when I would bring up something that I observed, I'm like, why you saw this kid like running down the hallway and screaming? And I'm like, well, what are you going to do about that, Lucy? I'm not sure. I don't know. I've got to talk to the teacher about that. And I'm like, oh, so I'm supposed to come with everything prepared. But for you, you have time to figure out all the details. But for me, I have to come prepared because if I don't come prepared, you need to help me.
One of Cassie's big frustrations was the fact that half the time, Lucy didn't have all the answers and that was OK. But when Cassie didn't have a readily available answer with backup, Lucy would insist she needed more help and it would make its way back to the director. I noticed after being there for about like maybe nine or 10 months, the people that they hire are young, are impressionable right after school, right? Maybe are unsure of their roles or their abilities.
And so they hire these people who they know that they really want to do well with, but that they can manipulate, make them do certain types of things, basically bully them because they know that they don't have they don't have that guidance or maybe don't have that that many years. One of the assistant deans was very toxic. The way that he spoke to the kids, he would yell at them. And I even observed him like yelling at his own child.
And when he was prompted to that's not how you deescalate a child, he was stuck in his ways and no, this is what we're going to do. It was like, this is how he is. It was OK for him to do these things. And I've seen people observe him yelling at a kid and not tell him to stop. And so it was frightening to me to see like this is accepted here. He was in power and that no one could say anything to him and how frightening these women feel about it, but they're not able to do anything about it.
I remember specifically, man, him would get into a lot of spats because after a while, I just kind of got tired of his bullshit. Like, I got tired of him thinking he could speak to me anyway. He would leave me off the emails purposely, I feel like, especially because it had to do with kids that he knew I saw. If I would recommend something in an email, he would state to everyone in the email, we're not doing this.
And then on a separate email, he would send just to me and say, we're not doing this because of blah, blah, blah. And so I was like, that's interesting why you want to portray this thing in front of everyone, that you're this macho man that has this power and we're not doing this. But in a separate email, you want to convey to me, we're not doing this. We're not doing it because of this, this and that. Why couldn't you say it all in one?
When a leader within an organization asserts their dominance through intimidation, it creates a fear-based system. The people within the organization won't speak out against the dominating leader because they fear the repercussions. By bluntly shooting down Cassie's idea in a group email, the others on the email chain could see what happens when you put yourself on the line. Those that speak out get pushed out and those that keep their heads down and go along with a crooked agenda will stay.
And they might even receive special treatment for their compliance, but they're selling their integrity out of fear. The ones that follow the status quo are fundamental to sustaining the toxic atmosphere that this corrupt sort of power creates. This is the type of environment Cassie was dealing with. So I can remember specifically working with a specific educator. Year one, we like had some passing bys with each other, but I really didn't know her.
And so year two, we were working really closely together. We had some really high need students. And because I worked with them previously, I wanted to give her recommendations on how to help them. And I remember the first time when we met, she said, I'm not going to do these recommendations. So I'm like, OK, this is how we're starting off. A lot of these students were very physical. And I started noticing when I was giving recommendations because she was not taking them.
She was getting physically attacked more. And what was interesting is all of the other educators weren't getting the same intensity, but she would. And she would touted around showing everyone like, yep, I got a bruise here because he hit me with this. And it was interesting because even all the training we gave her of like, OK, if they're coming at you with a book, instead of going towards them and getting hit, maybe you should back up.
She was doing the complete opposite of that because she knew the reaction she was getting from people. So if you're showing people your bruises, what kind of reaction are you getting? You're getting people saying, oh, my goodness, I feel so sorry for you. Are you doing all right? And initially, I felt so sad that she had to go through this.
When I started noticing that once the hitting stopped with all the other educators and she was the only one getting her ass kicked and other educators were telling me that she was going against what I was saying and actively escalating these students and then come after and crying and saying, I'm feeling scared, it makes me think what the hell is going on here. And so we would have meetings with the head director about this situation, what we should do with these students and this teacher.
There's a lot going on. And I was trying to see if the head director was noticing the trends I was because other educators were. And the head director said nothing. She kept putting it on me and saying, well, what do you think we need to do? And are you spending enough time with these kids? Do you need to see them more? And I'm like, well, when they're with me, they're not hitting me. I don't know. What do you want me to do? I finally had enough of it.
And in a meeting, I was like, other educators are telling me that you're actively going against what I'm saying. And I said this in front of the head director. That teacher gave me a look and that was like kind of like, OK, what is going on? The head director didn't say anything. And then the really key thing that made me push it forward to, OK, something is really off with this school.
This is not me. Is when finally they were like, we would like for you to have a meeting with everyone to kind of just review if the kids start to get physical. What should we do? And so I set up this whole plan. I let my coworker know, I let my head director know I was going to make this plan, send it out to everyone. And so I sent it to the head director and the coworker beforehand, just so if they had any thoughts, they can include it in and everything like that.
And so it's Monday morning and I see that that coworker sent out the plan to everyone and said that she created it. When I'm reading this email, she's reporting, she's like, I did this over the weekend and added some things. Let me know what you think. I created this. And I was like, what is wrong with this person? I never thought that someone would try to take my work and present it as their own.
What ended up happening is I emailed everyone and I said, well, I actually I created this over the weekend. And if you have any thoughts about it, please let me know. But I look forward to seeing you at the meeting. I was so worried about being perceived as like the angry black woman. And I was so fed up. I was like, let me just try to be professional. And so we walk into the meeting. She walks in after me and the nerve of her to say, hey, everybody, sorry, I'm late.
I was up all night creating the doc. And I looked at her and I said, no, you did not. And everyone in the room just was like, what is going on? Afterward, the head director tells me to stay and tells my co-worker to stay. And so the head director starts saying like to the co-worker, I just want to check in to make sure you're all right. I heard that you have been doing a lot of suspicious things, you know, emailing and texting parents on Saturdays and Sundays and not really having boundaries.
And the co-worker starts fake crying. When I say there was no tears, no tears off her, but I'm sitting right next to her. And she's talking about how this job is so hard, wanting to do this to basically heal her own traumas. I'm listening to this and I'm like, this is someone who is not emotionally stable right now.
It's also working with some really high need students and the director, knowing that for you to sit here and allow her to continue, even though having that conversation and allowed her to also actively still my work and not say anything about it. And so the next day I texted her and I said, can I speak to you? And I told her that I felt it was very disrespectful for her to take my work and present it as her own.
And her excuse was because she's very anxious at night, sometimes she does things that she does not remember. And then she kind of like fake cried. So once that happened, I felt sorry for her because I saw that they took a lot of advantage of her. And a part of me felt like I saw myself in her because she definitely strived so hard to get recognition from them. But she wasn't getting it. And I also know there was a part of her that was tied to this job because of her own healing.
And it just seemed like she wasn't able to disconnect that you cannot heal yourself through trying to basically save these kids. And so she put a lot of herself on the line. And for me, it mirrored to me that this job is not worth it and that they do not care as much for you. They don't care for your mental health and that even if you are showing signs that you're being overworked, that does not matter.
And so I definitely felt very sad for her, but also I felt like, why is this happening in this setting? What pushed her to that moment to be like, I need to take this work because I think I'm going to get some type of recognition. Like, I'm desperate. How terrible is it that she has to be in this position where they have created this culture where they don't value people's work or don't value how much these educators put in and that she's constantly seeking that recognition, but not getting it.
And what was difficult also is she talks so much about how good of a relationship she had with the direct supervisor, kind of like she felt like they were good friends. And from my impression, the direct supervisor, like, honestly hated her. And in the meetings, she would rush her when she was talking. Sometimes she would like roll her eyes.
And so to me, it was interesting to see, like, you believe you have this relationship with her, but I'm seeing a completely different thing. And how is playing into how they're manipulating you? The head director should have discussed the stolen plan with Cassie's co-worker. Allowing employees to take credit for others' work is incredibly dismissive of the person who put forth the time, effort and knowledge.
The fact that no one advocated for Cassie, knowing that she created this plan, is careless and disingenuous. This incident truly highlights the disrespect that they had for Cassie. It also highlights the desperation felt by others to be accepted and respected. This co-worker shouldn't have been working with children if she was projecting her own issues onto them. Cassie was assessing and trying to resolve the problem correctly.
But unfortunately, no one was willing to listen to her or carry out her suggestions. It was like she was going in circles. Her constant effort bore no fruit. It was the worst time, I think, ever in my life, especially because I was physically sick. I have never felt so physically anxious. I would wake up an hour before I was supposed to get up. And it would be like a panic wake up. And I would feel like I needed to throw up. I'm sweating. I'm anxious. I'm thinking about what can happen in a day.
Every day felt like there was a new conflict. There was a new situation I needed to fix, not with only the kids, but with the co-workers. There was some situation that I needed to fix and I always felt like I needed to go in prepared and ready. And I just was physically sick. I remember I took all of my sick days really early on. Additionally, I had nightmares. I would have panic dreams. And so I knew that I needed to get on medication. I needed to meet with a therapist.
All of my mental health was declining and I literally could not help myself. And didn't realize how much this job was taking a toll on my body until I think it was like during the winter. And I could not get out of bed. And I remember my mom telling me, like, you need to meet with someone. Once I did, I think that's really what helped me and changed my thought that I needed to get out of that place.
According to the Cleveland Clinic, frequently having stress or anxiety ridden dreams is a huge red flag for real life stress and the role it's playing on your body. Constantly waking up in a panic sweat from a dream is a sign that your body is physically reacting to the stress that you're enduring during the day. The stress and anxiety were relentless on Cassie's mental health.
She said it drove her into a deep depression and she started to see a therapist, which helped her see things from a whole new perspective. In this position, I questioned myself and my abilities a lot. And I think that was just something natural for me because I was born a people pleaser. It was a natural role that I was into just because of the dysfunction within my own household. That it was natural for me to be like, OK, let me give so much of myself.
And then additionally, I feel like it was also natural for me to disregard what my body and mind was telling me, because my body and mind was telling me, get out of this place. It is toxic. I remember my therapist was saying it literally feels like you are going into a battlefield, like you are putting on your best each morning. Like I was in survival mode. What I had a hard time with was why are adults acting like this?
I thought that once you become an adult, that people are able to present themselves at at work with like a professional demeanor. But I just really realized that people have their insecurities and problems. It doesn't just end at home. It carries the work and that projects them onto you, not because of something you're doing, but because of own issues. It took me a long time to realize that.
I think it also took me a long time to realize that I deserve basic respect and that I can call it out right away if someone's not doing it. It took me so long to figure out how to do that, because in the moment I just saw red and I was so afraid of being labeled as someone who was angry. And then also, like I was thinking about that time when I didn't have any relationships with anyone at that school. It would be a long time to build the relationships with them.
And so I was so afraid of like if I was to voice how I really felt or like if something was wrong, that they would turn everyone against me and that I would be by myself again. And so once I was able to call out the disrespect, I remember specifically it was in a meeting with one of the head directors. And she was questioning me on and on again, like why I didn't do this, why I didn't do that. And I directly stated to her, I feel like you are questioning my clinical judgment.
And I said that I could see the look on her face like, oh, she felt like she said something wrong. And I felt so good because I was like, I finally stood up for myself instead of me just kind of taking it and trying to give her answers. I blatantly said exactly what she was doing, and I don't think they were ready for that or they weren't used to that. I was really worried about like if I put these boundaries up, how is it going to affect how they treat me?
But instead, when I put these boundaries up, it made me feel better about how I treated myself, about what I allowed and what I didn't allow. And so it made me feel good about like this is something I know I can do. And if they're not able to give me this basic respect, then this is what's going to happen next. And I'm still going to feel good about myself because I didn't betray how I really felt because a lot of times I would betray what I wanted.
Or when I was in that people pleasing mode, I allowed them to roam over me. But then at night, I would ruminate about it. So instead of ruminating on it, in that moment, I was like able to really like be in present with myself and say, no, this is what I wanted and respect what I wanted. Learning to use your voice to set boundaries as a people pleaser is extremely challenging. But you have to get out of your comfort zone if you want to move forward.
Cassie was fed up with the way she was being taken advantage of. She knew her value and wanted the respect she rightfully deserved. The pressure from the situation pushed her to get out of her comfort zone, and she found the courage to stand up for herself. Cassie's need for respect outweighed her want of acceptance. Standing up for yourself is a boundary. It tells others that you're confident and confidence demands respect. This can happen anywhere.
I know when I transition out, a lot of people were like, well, what if this happens at the same location? And I was like, well, I'm equipped now. I know how to start off with putting these boundaries in place. I know how to start off with calling out disrespect.
And so no matter where I go, even though the situation happened in it, and it could happen or it could start off in that way, I know how to handle it and I know how to trust myself and that it will not get as far as it did in the previous one. Learning how to move forward in spite of the challenges that may lie ahead of you is one of the most important lessons in life. There will always be a challenging person to deal with or a hard situation to work through.
Life isn't always easy, but the way you use your voice and the way you handle yourself in a challenging situation will have a powerful effect on the rest of your life. Speak up when you're being treated poorly. Don't buy into a broken system just to get by, because when you do, you'll be stripped of your happiness and sanity. Cassie learned how to trust her instincts and realized how powerful her voice really was.
She still works for the same organization, but is starting at a new school this fall. This time around, she's readily equipped with the tools she needs to manage any situation that comes her way. Next time on Toxic Workplace. Narcissism, once it is set, is quite a rigid personality style, quite antagonistic and high conflict. They're very rigid in their thinking and they don't really have a lot of incentive to change.
If things are going well for them, especially if they are in a position of authority and power, then they really don't have the motivation to change.
Narcissists only do things that they believe benefits them, that's why the real push here has to be awareness of the real effects of workplace instability, of toxic workplaces, and educating HR on what to do when people come to you, how to set policies that really discourage narcissistic behaviors so that you don't have narcissists in your company, not that you can ever fully get them out, but that they are not allowed to just wreak havoc on everyone else.
I hope you enjoyed the podcast. If you have a story to share, please go to ToxicWorkplacePodcast.com and click on Be a Guest. Your story will be told anonymously. All names are changed to protect the employee and the company. And don't forget to leave a review on Apple Podcasts.