Megan Dalla-Camina: Empowering Women - 'Women Rising'

Music. In the spirit of reconciliation, I acknowledge the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community.

I pay my respects to their elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Highland peoples today.

Welcome to Totally Lit, the podcast celebrating reading, writing and creating literature. I'm your host, Kai Garvey. Thank you for listening. Megan Della Camina, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me, Kylie. Super excited to be here. I was very excited when I got a request to have you on the show. I'd love to hear about your book, Women Rising, because it's not only a book, it's a platform and a movement.

Can you share a bit about it with me? Yeah. So I'm the founder of a company called Women Rising. So we're a women's leadership and empowerment company. And we have a edtech platform that has a global virtual program I am for women, so women in their personal and professional development journeys. And then I am the author of the new book, Women Rising. So separate, but similar, all aligned to the same mission to help women rise.

What prompted you to write your book? This is my fourth book, and I've been in and around the women's leadership, women's empowerment development space for a couple of decades, first in my corporate career and Had a, you know, executive corporate career at IBM and other companies and got very involved in gender diversity and women's leadership there. And then been running my own company for the last 11 years all around, you know, this space.

And this book particularly, it's one of those books that I was just sitting on for a number of years, just waiting for, and your writers will understand this, like just for the themes, the pieces to come together and also for it to be the right time for this book and the right sort of time in the zeitgeist where it could really pick up and and do something and create some change so yeah that's been an interesting journey as well well it's an interesting role women have because

we run our households run our families we're really like little ceos in our own world, but I don't know about you. There's some mornings where I wake up and I think about the day ahead of me and go, I don't know if I'm going to be able to do everything that I need to do today. But really to achieve things in our life, we really have to overcome that feeling. Do you have any tips about how you tackle that on a daily basis? Yeah, look, it's such a big question, isn't it, for women?

And just that sense that sometimes that load just feels so heavy. And I'm a single mom. My son's nearly 24, but I've always been a single mom since he was 18 months old. And I remember those days, you know, like those days of doing that juggle and the hustle and just looking at how, like literally how am I going to get through this and get all of these things done. I think the...

And I, and I, like, I know it sounds so, well, of course, but the whole piece around self-care and like, how, how are we taking care of ourselves in that process, which sounds so simple to say, but it can be so incredibly hard to do when you're in the mix and you're juggling all of the things, but that's always my first tip.

And it's what I, that's the tool I didn't have when I burnt myself out when I was in my mid thirties, you know, when I had a six year old and, you know, was single mom, working mom doing all of the things. And I just didn't have that lens of like, where's me in this equation? The first, the very first thing that I would say is like, where is that care for yourself? And it can be small moments. It doesn't need to be these big grand gestures.

It can be, you know, the five minutes of meditation or the five minutes of having the cup of tea by yourself or how are you getting the sleep? And sometimes that's incredibly challenging if you're caring for other people, but how do we fit that in and prioritise it is the absolute number one tool for dealing with that sense of overwhelm, exhaustion, just too much, you know, going on for us.

That mental load can be quite heavy in terms of you are trying to make sure lunches are done, uniforms are ready, this person needs to be at this appointment, this person needs to be at sport then especially if you're a working mother you are sitting at your desk eight hours a day managing that while your phone is going off and mom I need this oh I forgot that and then trying to be a loving partner to someone as well or a good

friend and I think to women especially if they're in sort of that middle level of their career where they can feel really trapped that there isn't any power. They've just got to do their day-to-day job.

And sometimes it sort of feels like there's no way out, that you're in this like sort of. What is it they call when you're running, the mouse running on the wheel? Yeah, on the hands to wheel. Oh, and you're never moving forward. You're just going round and round and round. Yeah. So do you have ideas for women who want to achieve and move forward, whether it's with their career or if they're a writer, if they're wanting to establish a writing career? How do you break out of that cycle?

Yeah. So I would say I think from all of the women that I work with and support, literally thousands and thousands of women every year and my own journey as well like I've been through all these different stages in a career as a writer you know running a business is like step one after the self-care piece like because it's really hard to break out of anything if you are exhausted and burnt out and overwhelmed right so that has to come first and we

have to be able to create a little bit of space you know it just like where's that little wedge of space so that you can start to think about the second piece which is clarity and what is it that you want to be doing and what is it that like what are the what what's the vision and what are the goals in this space so if you want to write a book okay great clarity right I want to write a book what is it fiction non-fiction you know

what's the genre blah blah blah blah all the things that we do as writers.

You know, when am I going to write this book? Where is the space? And again, it doesn't need to be, you know, oh, I need six weeks on retreat. It can be, okay, there's 10 minutes here and there's 30 minutes here, you know, charting the path. And whether that's because you're in a career or you want to write a book or whatever, once we clear on that vision, then we can start to lay out the steps. And again, it sounds so simple, but most of the time, most of us don't do that.

And then we wonder why we're not progressing or why we just feel sort of trapped. And while we feel stuck and the greatest way to get unstuck is just one small step. Like what's the next small, I'm all about the small steps, what's the next small action? Like if you don't have time to write two pages today, write five lines. You're still moving forward. Like you're still making progress to your goal. That's why I've written all of my books. It hasn't been these big spaces.

It's all been in the cracks. More moments. Yeah, exactly. So the self-care, then the clarity, and then the, okay, what are the steps that you need? And what support do you need to be able to do that so that you can show up for yourself and show up for, you know, this dream or this goal that you have to, yeah, move toward it? Are you happy to share your own experience with burnout?

And how did you move forward from that experience when you felt like, I don't know, I don't want to call it rock bottom, but like you do hit that point where it's too much. What did you do? Yeah. So I was, I'm 54 now. I was 36 at the time. So I had a six-year-old. I'd been a single parent for like four and a half years. I was a new executive. So I'd been in an executive role at IBM for about two years. And I was very young for that position.

It was a very big job. I was new to the company as well, fell in new.

And so I really was just in over my head, not for what I was doing I was director of marketing and I like I was top of the mastery curve for my skill set but not for the environment and the politics and the you know the company and everything else and I had no tools like I was I'd been a workaholic for a decade because I just but that was what had been modeled to me you know and above and around me they were all men they had wives at home looking after the children mostly,

and they worked all of the time. Yeah. From 25 when I was at GE, that's what had been modelled for me, so that's what I did to, you know, be successful in inverted commas. And I'd had lots of mini burnouts. Mm-hmm. And I think a lot of people will relate to that, like those little moments about too many colds and flus or, you know, I got a heart condition. That was one of my signs. I had a thyroid issue. That's a big warning. Yeah. Slow down. Yeah, all of these little steps, right?

And then I came back. I was in the U.S. For a business trip and I flew in that morning and I was just, you know, you just feel like you'd hit the wall. And I drove into the car park that morning and I just thought, I just can't do this for one more day. Not one more day. It was just like a moment of ultimate clarity. And I'd been talking to my mum on the phone and I just got out of the car, walked into my CEO's office and I said, I'm done.

I can't. And for me, it was what I would call an invisible burnout. And again, I think a lot lot of women will relate to this, where on the surface, I looked fine. I had that mask on, I was showing up, I was doing all the things, I was taking care of my kid, I was taking care of everything at work with a smile on my face, because that's what women are expected to do. And everyone was shocked.

My CEO, who knew me quite well, was like, I had no idea. I'm like, no, because I didn't let you see any of that. So I ended up taking, I basically said I quit. it. And he said, well, no, no, no, let's not do that. And as a single mum, I'm glad he said that. But I ended up taking two months off. And then I came back in a four-day-a-week different role, which I did for seven years in corporate before I left.

But here's the thing, right? And this is a warning sign to anybody who's going through burnout. I took two months off, but in that two months, did I just relax and rejuvenate? No, I didn't. I packed up my house that I'd been in for 15 years. Moved house, moved in with my partner and his two teenage children, my ex-partner, was a complete disaster, and went through all of that stress and then had to move again within that time, you know, shortly after that period. So...

The recovery piece of burnout is so important. Yes. Like we take ourselves with us wherever we go, right? So you may step away from your work for a period of time, but unless you move into that recovery phase of, you know, coming out of burnout and how do we come back? And it can be a long road back. Then we're just in a different location.

Yes. Yeah. We're still burnt out or continually burning ourselves out.

I learned a very important lesson. I have hit that period of burnout and had to take a step back and the only way I've been able to cope with it though is because I feel like a complete failure if I can't achieve what I had set out to do and I'm like letting my family down I'm too overwhelmed but I have too much on my plate and so I treat that step back as I'm stepping backwards to move forwards to slingshot myself further but that actually isn't the

greatest mindset because you just take on more the more time you have the more you fill it with things although it has helped my writing career though because I'm like okay I'll do something with this time to create a podcast or create a writing competition or but it hasn't been the best way for self-care in terms of just stopping and just being still. Yeah. And look, I mean, we all have to learn, right? And you've touched on a really important piece, a couple of really important pieces.

One is, and this is what I write so much about in Women Rising, is like, what are the stories that you're telling yourself about the situation that you're in? What is your inner critic narrative? Because when we can really get a hold of that and start to really understand the diatribe that's going on inside of our minds all the time and start to unpack that gently and with a lot of self-compassion, then we can start to challenge those stories.

Like the story of like, I'm burnt out, but I need to keep going and I'm a failure. And so therefore I need to do something else productive whilst I'm burnt out and taking a step back to recover, right, that's a whole narrative that, yes. And so we can say, well, what are the stories that I'm telling myself about this situation that's leading me to believe that I need to be productive while I'm meant to be recovering?

And where does that come from? It sounds to me like the overachiever archetype, which I am as well, yeah, which is all social conditioning right yeah that's the work like that's the real deep work because when we can really get into that and that's what I had to do in my eventual recovery but I still have to watch that now.

Because I think if you have a tendency for overachievement, you have a tendency for burnout. Yes. And it's always coming back to those stories of, why am I driving myself so hard? Why, why, what am I telling myself?

And what meaning am I making from the fact that I've taken a step back, if that's what, you know, so that we can start to quieten and unravel those inner narratives that either push us into actions that are harmful for us or they keep us stuck like the writer who you know is stuck in inactivity because their inner critic story is saying you're not good enough someone's written it before you're never going to finish no one's going to buy it that's an inner critic story as well so we can either

harm ourselves stay stuck you know in this sort of inertia and an action. So that inner critic work is so important for all of us. I'm really pleased that you've brought that up because that is my next question about the inner critic. I think women really beat themselves up a lot. How do you address that in your book about the inner critic? So the book's in three parts. So part one is around the forces that hold us back.

So the forces outside of us, patriarchy, social conditioning, gender normative conditioning, biases that exist, and what I call the paradoxes of power. So that kind of sets it up for us. Like, why do women, like, what do we come up against in our lives, in our careers, as mothers? And then the second part of the book is all about the inner critic, which starts with understanding how we internalise the patriarchy as women.

Like we think it's something outside of us, but it's also something inside of us. And that can create and drive this inner critic and these inner stories and narratives as we were just talking about. So what I go through in the second part of Women Rising is how do we really start to understand that? And then what are the strategies to unpack that so that we can move through it and take the action that we want to take and feel good about our lives and our careers, et cetera.

And one of the things that I have written in the book, the 13 archetypes of the inner critic, because I wanted to really go deeper than just, well, here are the top line tools. I found it's incredibly helpful to get under that and look at, well, what is the nature of my inner critic? Am I a perfectionist? Am I the overachiever? Am I the people pleaser? Am I the empath? Am I the comparer?

What is my flavor of inner critic? because they all have different inputs and then different strategies to start to tame them and manage them. And I'm finding that that is incredibly helpful for people to. Especially if they've done any inner critic work because it just gets us to that next level of our own self-awareness and understanding and then, okay, if this is you, go do this. Yeah. I think I need to sit down and read your book so I can identify myself.

I know I'm very unkind to myself and I'm a lot harder and my self-talk, I would never speak to someone else the way I speak to myself and yet I think I'm quite a nice person to other people yet so... Just mean to me. Yeah. And you're not alone, right? You know, in our Women Rising program in my company, we have had almost 10,000 women in four years go through this program. Amazing.

It's just been phenomenal. And the thing I hear more than anything else when women come in is, number one, I thought it was just me. Like I thought I was the only one, exactly what you just said, who, you know, I'm so mean to myself. It's most of us until we get the tools. And once we get the tools, then we can start to, oh, that voice inside my head, number one, it's not me.

Number two, it's not true. And number three, there's something I can do about that so that I can stop beating the crap out of myself all day and start to move in the direction of how I want to feel and how I want to live my life, which is an ongoing process, right? Like I still have my own, of course, that come up.

But I now know what to do with them. You know, when those stories arise that keep me stuck or make me lose my confidence or, you know, I'm writing my book and it's like, oh, is this anything new? You know, is anyone going to care? I know what to do with those stories now. So then I can go to the other side of that. So yeah, I hope it helps. It sounds fantastic that you've been able to help so many women with your program as well. Like 10,000 there's a lot of ladies to help.

Thank you. Yeah, it's wildly exceeded all of my expectations for the work. And I think that so many women have, like we struggle alone so much as women, and we just put that mask on and we just soldier on. Something magical has happened when I brought these women together to go through this particular curriculum that I teach and the coaching that comes along with it and what gets unlocked.

And I think part of that is just being in safe spaces and, And looking at you and looking at me going, oh, I thought it was just me and it's not just me. And there's things that we can do to make it better and make it feel better and move towards our goals. Interestingly enough, our books have a similar theme. I have a picture book, but the main theme is about asking for help when you need it.

So it's just about a little girl learning to roller skate and thinking she can do it on her own and then figuring out, oh, actually, I need to ask someone for help. And I just thought that was an important theme because as women, we're taught to be everything to everyone and we have to be a mother and we have to be the best at our jobs.

And when we're trying to do everything, it's really hard and there's times as an adult where you need help, you need your village and your support crew and it can be a little bit embarrassing sometimes to say, oh, actually, I can't do this. Could someone please help me? So, yeah, I like that we've got that similar theme there. Yes, I love that.

I was really interested when I was reading some information about you, about your male champions of change, because I really like the idea that you've embraced the patriarchy as allies.

Do you want to tell me a bit more about that? Yeah. So when I was at IBM, I was involved in an Australia-wide initiative run by the Sex Discrimination Commissioner then, Elizabeth Broderick, called the Male Champions of Change. So this was back in 2010. Bringing male CEOs together to create real change for women at work and, you know, really strive towards gender balance. So that was a long time ago now, but in my company...

Women Rising, now we run a male allies program. So we have the Women Rising program for women and non-binary people. And then we have the male allies program where I bring men together to bring them into the tent in an inclusive, supportive way so that they can move from what I call being good guys to being true male allies.

To really understanding the lived experience for women at work and at home, the landscape for women, to really understand bias, not just what it is, but what it looks like and what to do about it when they see it. And then a whole lot of other tools and support for them to really step into being true allies for women. And we see profound impacts for that in the workplace.

But even more than that, what I'm starting to hear a lot, and we've had more than a thousand men now go through this, is what happens at home for those men who are married to a woman or have a female partner of the change in the dynamics. And I was on a call today with a woman at one of my clients and she said, oh, my husband just went through the male allies program. And I didn't know that. I didn't know it was the first time I'd met her. And she said, it's changed our marriage. Fantastic.

And I was so shocked. And I was like, tell me more about that. And she said, because now he understands my experience as a woman. And now he's curious about it and he's asking and he wants to make it better for us at home and also make it better in the workplace. And like the book's inclusive of men as well. You know, it's a whole section about what about the men. I was really passionate about writing that and about it being like we have to stop being divisive.

About getting to gender balance. The only way we're going to get there is together and to have men really in on the journey and leading that as well. So yeah, that's the piece around the men. I think it's like for the next wave of feminism, women's movement, whatever you want to call it, the next wave, men have to be right in the centre as well.

Now, I'm going to take you back a little bit to the writing of the book. Did you sit down and plan the structure of how you wanted to approach it? Did you think about the messaging or did you just sit down and start typing and did it evolve? This one was a really interesting book to write because it had a number of flavours.

It was initially going to be a small book. Like my initial vision for this book that it was going to be, I've had this book on my desk someone wrote like 30 years ago that was just a small hardcover book and I thought that's what I'm going to write. I've written all these big books and I was like, I just want to write a manifesto and it was going to be, it was going to be like the first section of the book, right? Like setting it up and the forces that hold women back.

But I'm also a teacher and a coach. And as I was really getting into that, I thought, I can't just put out the problems. I have to chart the pathway to the solution and So then it became three parts, part one being around, you know, the paradoxes, part two being the inner critic and then part three being the tools for rising. So, you know, confidence on life, vision and purpose and wellbeing and a couple of other things.

So the first step for me was really forming up that structure because the way that my brain works and my creative process works for every book I've done, actually, I've written the introduction first, which for all of my books has pretty much gone untouched. Like I've written it. Amazing. And that's sort of been like my downloading of, oh, this is what the book is. Like this is the vision. And then having a really clear structure that has like evolved and morphed.

But like once I land on it and with this book, like once I landed, I was kind of like, oh, okay, that's pretty firm. And then I start writing. I'm not a linear writer. Like I like to write the introduction, have the structure, but then I jump around. I use Scrivener, the writing tool. I'm obsessed with it. So things move and shift and all the rest of it and I jump around when I write as well.

I don't write start to end like you would. I would imagine if you're writing a novel, you would write start to end. I think there's a lot of writers out there that use Scrivener as well and do jump around. But I think what happens when you edit as well and you're working with a publisher and they will tell you, oh this works better here and let's move that around so that structure can change once you've got feedback from someone else as well.

Yeah absolutely and I had a really iterative process with my publisher which was beautiful like some some of those really important notes that you get from your editor quite early in the process that can be really formative.

Yeah I had a beautiful a beautiful back and forth with my editor and my publisher on this book so that was incredibly helpful do you think your book is helpful like so many authors and especially female authors they often are introverts and then have to go out into the world and sell their book and develop their brand I know I'm fine with if I'm on a panel sitting on a stage on a panel but as soon as you get me in front of a lectern my knees start to wobble those things

like when you're trying to rise up and do something amazing, you've got to overcome all of those things. Do you have any advice for writers out there who are putting themselves out there? Yes. So my advice is always focus on the purpose, like focus on the purpose. And that's especially helpful for introverts. I'm an introvert as well.

And I can do the extroverted thing and, Because I've done it for a very long time, like my whole life and, you know, and especially in my work, I do a lot of, you know, speaking and coaching and teaching and things, but I'm a deep introvert.

Like I could literally sit in my house for two weeks, not speak to a soul. I'd be happy as a clam, right? Happy as a clam, probably longer actually. So for putting yourself out there, the inner critic will rise up. The inner critic will get really, really loud and tell you all of the reasons why this is a terrible idea. No one cares about what you have to say. No one cares about what you're writing. You should just sit down and be quiet like all of the things.

So using the tools that I teach and write about in the book will be incredibly helpful for that and understanding what is my story around this and using the tools to quieten it down. And then I also find that focusing on why, like why did you write this book? Why are you passionate about this book?

How is it going to help people? and if you don't show up then no one's going to be helped and supported and served that's what gets me out of bed in the morning you know thinking about you know we have a vision for this book in in my in my team of getting this book into the hands of a million women, because we really believe yeah and that's not about book sales that's about you know women rising outside of the book is a movement that that we're creating and the book is a lever you know

like the book is a leaper for change so that that's got nothing to do with me yeah that is about women and helping the women rise so yeah like how do you connect yourself as a writer to the impact that you want to have yeah that can be fiction as well as non-fiction right it doesn't just need to be non-fiction like like my book is and that I think for those of us who would rather sit at home and write and not talk to anybody.

I think that can help us get out of our own way and show up for ourselves and show up for the work that we're putting out into the world. And I think it can be so important for your own confidence when you realise you have a voice. Yeah. Because my life has changed dramatically since I've been writing and since I've been podcasting and going, oh, I can actually make change.

I can connect with people. And it has changed a lot of the way I approach life, just having that boost of confidence and realising I'm capable of something outside of, you know, just, I shouldn't say just being a mum because raising children is a very important job. But you do kind of just, and especially as you get older, it feels like you're becoming invisible. It's the older that you get. And it's like, well, actually, no, I've got a lot to say. I'd like to say it.

Yeah, and honouring that voice, right, and honouring your place in the world that you have something to say and that you're going to say it and then you're going to then back it up because it's another thing to, oh, I wrote this little thing and it's just going to sit here to, I wrote this book and I would like to offer it to the world. There's a whole chapter on confidence in the third part of the book where I go really into the confidence strategies and tools so that may be helpful for

some people as well. Oh, definitely be helpful for me. Now, as you've got, the book is out and people are reading it, what's the reception you've had from the women that you're helping and other women that have read the book?

Yeah, it's been phenomenal so far. Like it's, I mean, it's selling well, which is always nice as an author, you know, because that means people are buying it and it's, you know, being pick of the month in a lot of the stores and it's been number one on Amazon and all the rest of it. So it's being beautifully received, which is, like, so lovely.

And I find the best thing of being a writer is when you get the stories, you know, when women start saying, like, someone wrote on LinkedIn the other day, this feels less like a read and more like a revolution. And that was just like, I was like, yeah. Fantastic. Love that. Love that. That is, that was exactly my intention, right? And I just felt, oh, yes, thank you.

So, yeah, and then it's, you know, as a writer, you just got to constantly show up, constantly put the energy out, constantly talk to people about the message, about what it is, about why it matters, about how it can help. I mean, that can be exhausting. Yes. You know, like you've got to pace yourself. But it's also such a blessing, right? Like I remember when my first book came out 12 years, oh my gosh, more than that, 13 years ago.

Like to have had all the opportunities that I'm having with this book to talk about it so much and share it. It's what you dream about when you're a writer. What's been your most exciting opportunity with this book? Well, this book, we did two beautiful events. It's the first time I've ever done a book launch event in four books, you know. and we did a beautiful event in Sydney and Melbourne. They were both incredible.

And something, I don't know if it was because it was the first event, but something happened and so many of our community were there. We had about 150 people in Sydney. Oh, wonderful. And it was just like the space that we had. We had this beautiful old building. Something, someone said this to me last week, like something alchemical happened in that room that night. And it was just magical. It was just the most magical experience. And it happened in Melbourne as well in a different way.

So that for me is such a highlight because I run a virtual company and a virtual program, so I'm not with my community. Yeah. So to be able to show up and be in a room and have them so excited about the book and talking about the book and I read from the book, which I'd never done before, you know, in an event.

Yeah, I think that plus all the podcast discussions I'm having, because they're all so different and it's like it's such a blessing right to be here and you know talk about hiding so yeah that's been incredible as well if you could give a message to someone who's thinking about reading the book and about their own journey of rising what what message would you like to give my listeners i would say number one go gently with yourself I think that's been such a theme of our chat this evening.

And for those reading the book, like just go gently. Like there's some big themes in here. Especially in the first section, like it can be, it's like, oh, wow. Okay. I've had a lot of feedback that even from people who are really in the women's space and in the women's empowerment space and they're like, I, oh, the motherhood paradox. I'd never thought about that. Or the confidence paradox. I've never thought about that. So like feel your way through it and then do the inner critic work.

Like really work out what your archetype is, get the tools, go gently and be kind to yourself, but do this work because the inner critic work more than anything else I've ever taught has the potential to change your life because as soon as we start to change those thoughts that we're thinking about who we are and how we show up and all of the you know all of the pieces we change and the world changes around us yeah so yeah that's the invitation is to really step into

that and for their own journeys like spend some time to get clear on what you want like what is your vision for yourself for your work for your writing for your family life for whatever it is like what do you want it to look like and feel like and how do you take a small step today and then another small step tomorrow to move you in that direction you don't have to change your whole life doesn't need to be anything dramatic

but every small step we take when we have a vision and a direction in which we want to move, moves us forward and builds our confidence. You know, affirms who we are and what we want and brings that to life. So that clarity piece together with the self-care piece, yeah, would be my hope for everyone. And for anyone who would like to investigate your Women Rising movement more, where can they find you? So womenrisingbook.com is where the book is and megandallacamina.com.

Everything is there and links to Women Rising, which is womenrisingco.com. They're sort of my three places. They're all linking together. Amazing. Yeah. So, yeah, we'd love to connect with people. I'm on socials, all the socials at Megan Della Camina as well. You have a massive following. It's incredible. Here's how I think about followers, right, and community that we have. Think about being in a room with a thousand people.

It's a lot of people. A lot of people. And, you know, we look at people's social media numbers and we, like, feel self-shame and I don't have enough and dah, dah, dah, dah. And then you think about like, if you had 250 followers who were really like into your work, like true fans, that can create a revolution. Yeah. Right. And a thousand people in a room, that's a lot of people.

Yeah. So every person counts, like every follower, every person who's interested in what you have to say is a gift, such a gift. Well, thank you so much, Megan, for joining me. I've enjoyed hearing about your book, and I hope that some of my listeners can benefit from some of your lessons. Thank you so much. I've loved our chat. I wish you all the best. Thank you.

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