Jess Horn - Bernie Thinks in Boxes: Exploring Autism Through Children's Literature

Music. In the spirit of reconciliation, I acknowledge the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea, and community.

I pay my respects to their elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Highland peoples today. Welcome to Totally Lit, the podcast celebrating reading, writing, and creating literature. I'm your host, Kai Garvey. Thank you for listening. Jess Horne, welcome to Totally Lit. Hi, Kai. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm very excited to chat with you about your book, Bernie Thinks in Boxes, a topic that's close to my heart.

I have two sons on the spectrum who are considered neurodiverse. So I'm loving to see books out in the mainstream that address topics like that. Would you like to tell me a little bit about the book? Yeah, no worries. So Bernie Thinks in Boxes, written by me, illustrated by Zoe Bennett and published by Affirm Press, is about Bernie who categorizes her world into boxes. So she's got boxes for school, for the park, even for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

And when she can fit her thoughts into boxes, they make sense. So when she's invited to a birthday party of a school friend to be held at the park, she finds her school box and her park box colliding and she becomes overwhelmed by that.

So while she isn't able to stay at the party, she finds another way to celebrate her friend's birthday that's a little bit less out of the box for her. Amazing. And would you like to share the inspiration for your story? Is it taken from real life? It was initially just me reflecting on how I think and sort of coming up with a phrase for that, which was, you know, oh, I think in boxes.

And I had a little bit of a laugh about that because, you know, I'd like to interpret things literally and I find that funny. So I was like, imagine myself sitting in a box thinking. And I just kind of got this visual of like a page in a book where, you know, Bernie thinks in boxes, but not like this. And you've got a kid sitting in a box thinking.

So that's sort of where the idea originated. And then I just really wanted to turn that into a story about my way of thinking and just sharing a different perspective, I guess. Yeah, it took me a very long time to get that one right. I don't think anyone realises the journey that a manuscript takes when you sit down and write something and you've got a bit of a concept and it can go through so many reiterations.

Before it's actually on the shelf did you want to share a little bit about that experience yeah I mean this is one that I started writing I think it was like probably 2021 and I started writing it it might have been the year before that actually because I started writing it before I got my autism diagnosis you know it started out as a male character who was trying to initially solve this problem of how he could stay at this birthday party and be involved and sort of

push his own knees to the side essentially and it wasn't until after I got my diagnosis and I was able to start unpacking that a little bit that I was you know able to work out where the story was going wrong why it was working and I was like hang on a second this kid who I then had by then turned into Bernie this this kid doesn't need to stay at this party there's other ways that we can do this celebration that sort of fit within her comfort level so yeah

that was a bit of a journey probably took me about a year and then yeah from there I sort of started pitching amazing and I see on your website that you have three more contracts. I do. That is so exciting. Are they also on similar topics or have you branched out into different areas? Two of them are. So I've got two coming out with Hardy Grant with the Bright Light imprint. And one of them is on sort of, I guess, more of like an ADHD type theme, but just sort of creative thinking as well.

One of them is a Rainbow Families theme, which is also reflective of my life, my family. And then the next one that I've just signed with Affirm Press is going to be sort of like almost a partner book for Bernie. So it's on similar themes. Yeah.

That's amazing and I'm so pleased to hear that there's some publishers embracing inclusivity and diversity because if kids are seeing that in their books, they can then translate it into their lives as well. Yeah, I think it's really important. I mean, we're seeing, you know, many more books now about diversity.

I think the more that we see characters, a diverse range of characters in books that even that aren't necessarily labeled as such, you know, the more sort of, and I say this like with quote marks, like normal or typical, you know, these characters become, you know, if kids just start seeing a big range in books, then it's, you know, it's reflective of real life. And I think that's important. I would have loved a book like yours when I was raising my boys. They're both 18 and 21 now.

And often people would think of them as those type of kids. When my guys got their diagnosis, it wasn't as common for our kids to be on the spectrum or, well, I'll clarify that, diagnosed as being on the spectrum. So I think there's been a lot of people in the past that it just hasn't been diagnosed. But now it's much more prevalent and people are now opening their eyes and understanding what lived experience is for someone that is on the spectrum or is neurodiverse.

Yeah, I think there's definitely a lot more awareness and understanding about autism now.

And obviously over the years, like the diagnostic criteria have changed,

you know, sort of lost Asperger's from the DSM, I believe. and, you know, sort of, you know, it's, it's, adjusted itself over time but also I think yeah there have been so many people in the past that have been missed or misdiagnosed and you know have and now starting to discover this as adults unlike myself and yeah it's nice to see like this increasing awareness I guess it can only be a good thing for people to understand themselves and the people around them.

And did you start writing your books prior to your diagnosis? Yeah I mean I've always loved writing and the topics vary Like as much as, you know, my first one is Bernie Thinks in Boxes and, you know, I've got a few others on similar topics, you know, I do also write funny, rhyming, silly things. Oh, amazing. I've always loved writing and it's just kind of whatever comes

to mind. It's just been that I think those topics that I write are the ones that have really stood out to the publishers because they are a little bit different, I guess. But, yeah, I've been like a lifelong writer. But it's only been probably the last maybe four or five years that I've been really focused on writing a book and getting it published. I guess prior to that, I didn't know it was a thing I could do for some reason.

Like, it's just like you just write things and keep them to yourself. I didn't actually, it didn't occur to me. I guess, yeah, I could do it and now here I am. I'm glad that it did occur to you. Because now you've got, what, four beautiful books which will be out in the world, which will be great for our kids. How have you felt sharing your own diagnosis as part of promoting the book?

I think, to be honest, the book was a push for me to do it, I guess, because I didn't want to just put this book out there and not tell the true story behind it. But at the same time, I did keep my diagnosis on the down low for a long time. I didn't tell many people. And I still don't tell people really outside of the writing world, to be honest.

Like if I'm talking about my book I'll talk about it but otherwise it's not something that I bring up a lot and I think part of that I'm not and this is definitely not the right approach I'm not saying everyone should be like this but I think part of it is very much like that imposter syndrome of like you know there's there's plenty of people out there who would still doubt that or question that about me and I'm not ready to.

Have those conversations just yet like it's still something that I'm working working through yeah I'm always happy to chat about it but it's just yeah I'm getting there yeah well I think too all of us are just people so when I walk up to someone and introduce myself I'm like hi I'm Kylie oh Kai for the listeners but I don't then say I am neurotypical I am heterosexual I don't say oh by the way my origins are from the UK like and like everybody just wants to be treated like a person yeah

exactly yeah and I I don't feel the need to sort of you know walk up shake hands and say hi I'm just I'm autistic like um yeah I don't I don't feel the need to do that but like I guess it is more for me personally it's just been amazing to learn about myself start reflecting on things that have happened in the past, why I behave the way that I do. I think it's more a personal journey and which, of course, I will bring people on in my life as needed, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

I do think that once you start emerging as an established author. It does give you a voice though. So if you have certain platforms or ideas where you would like to support kids from your own lived experience, it gives you that opportunity to share it if you want to, but you can also keep things to yourself as well in terms of this is who I am as an author, so your brand that you have, and this is who I am as a person.

Yeah that you can keep to yourself you can you can you can separate things into boxes can't you yes I know I know Kate Foster author does an amazing job of speaking openly about her diagnosis and her journey with kids and I definitely like aspire to to be like that one day yeah once I find a hi Kate Foster hi Kate yeah no she does an amazing job I have a few manuscripts which based on some of my son's experiences growing up.

But I guess it would be I'm a neurotypical person trying to write neurodiverse stories. And even though I do have the observation of their experiences, I don't have the lived experience myself in those situations. And so I've been submitting them to publishers and they haven't been landing. And I'm like, oh, I wonder if I'm just trying to share an experience that isn't actually mine in some ways.

I just want people to understand what our kids need in those situations where sometimes you do need someone to reach out to you to help you rather than your child saying, I need help. Is that a communication issue at times where if you can't identify how you're feeling and you can't put it into words to someone else, you do need the people around you to support you and say, hey.

How can I help you what what can I do to help in this situation if you're feeling overwhelmed you know I think it's very important to have like own voices stories you know written from experience but also you you as a parent writing from experience and I think that's still valid I think it's just maybe about the perspective I imagine it would be really powerful to write from like a peer's perspective about how they you know interact or support.

Their peer who is autistic you know I think there's so many ways you can get that information down and I think all perspectives are valid and I think especially my older son he kind of went through the world finding it very difficult especially in school and I would have loved to be able to share stories with the kids in his classes to just say this is who he is this is what he needs this is how you can support him and just encouraging those people to put a hand

out yeah because when you're like life is confusing when you're a kid anyway but then when you start adding in neurodiversity as well sometimes it's a confusing place I think the world is very confusing I find myself constantly confused about everything so I can relate to that changing topic for something it's been interesting hearing people's feedback on Bernie because when I wrote it like obviously I wrote it from my perspective and how my head

works but it's been really interesting and kind of humbling I guess to hear people say oh my gosh that makes sense oh that clicks with me oh that's you know. Represents the way my kid works or thinks really well or whatever I don't think I completely realized what I was writing when I write it when I write it when I wrote it in the sense that I was just putting down how I thought on a page, not really realising that not everyone necessarily thought that way at the time.

So it's been interesting to hear people's perspectives on that.

As soon as I saw your book, I was like, oh, that's amazing because I had a little boy who had all of his blocks lined up all along the hallway and trains. Everything was all put in the order that he thought in and so I identified with the book straight away and I love that the illustrations, Bernie looks like she's got a pair of Doc Martens on, which I thought was very cool. Yeah, Zoe did a good job. I love the addition of the boots. There was a lot of discussion about that.

And, yeah, she's done a really interesting job of representing the boxes visually in the illustrations. I'm not an illustrator, obviously, but I wouldn't have known how to tackle that. And I think she did it really well using, like, sort of colour coding and, like, visual boxes on the pages around different things. It was really interesting and clever the way she did it. And when you saw the illustrations, did the illustrations line up with the way

you were trying to demonstrate how Bernie thinks? Yes. I think I'm not actually a very visual person. It's probably quite a good thing for me in the sense that I don't really have clear expectations about what it looks going to look like. But the way Zoe's tackled, it does make sense to me in the way that Bernie thinks in the way that I think. I definitely didn't have any like expectations about what it should be. And so I think she's done a great job.

It's tricky to explain because whilst we have Bernie, you know thinking in some very clear concrete boxes you know like Zoe's got pictures for you know a medical box or a holiday box or sports or you know we've got a box for mum or a box for the teacher whatever it might be I think for me it's a little bit more complex than that it's like that's a simplistic way to explain it but day-to-day like the way boxes actually work for me is not necessarily that clear cut it's

not necessarily about objects or like people specifically, it can be much more complicated. Yeah. So I think the book does a good job of simplifying it and explaining it in a simple way. I think Zoe captured that really well.

Well, I think it is very complex to understand what someone needs in terms of if they're neurodiverse, because each individual person is different and presents in different ways and reacts in different ways and like I feel like I've been in training for 22 years with my guys and there's still times where I'm like oh my thinking is so different from your thinking how can we connect and so still after all of these years there are times where I'm like oh that didn't

go the way I expected but what I need to do is be always approaching with empathy and understanding. Going, okay, I don't really get what's happening here, but I always need to be reaching out and saying, okay, tell me what you need if we don't know what you need. Let's figure it out together and just always having an open mind and an open heart in terms of the support that I provide, I guess. Yeah, and I think that that is true for anyone, you know, neurotypical and neurodivergent.

Like we're all going to work differently from each other and we're not always going to understand how other people work. My son is autistic and he does a lot of things and thinks a lot of things very similarly to me. And I can see his brain ticking, I can see how it's working for him and we actually clash a lot for that reason.

I think because we're both like, well, I need it to be like this and it's like, well, I need it to be like this and I can see what's going on because we're both working the same way but it doesn't actually always make it easier. Sometimes it makes it harder because we both need things our own way and it doesn't always mesh. So even understanding where people are coming from, it doesn't always fix it.

You know I think it's just human interaction is not always easy.

No yeah we have some interesting clashes in our house too just where we're not on the same page and it can be difficult to work together to be moving in the same direction and go okay this is the goal that we want to achieve together how do we do that in a calm sensible way instead of getting a bit heated or clashing in that way I sometimes describe it as like being a negotiator and especially if things have escalated it's okay let's step

back a bit yes how can we make this work and this is this is the the gift of parenting as well as forever a negotiator and family relationships can be complex at the best of times so is is your son and old enough to have read your book yeah yeah yeah he's a good critic. I showed him, he's nine by the way, I showed him a news story yesterday and he's like, Oh, yeah, it's good. It's funny here. It's a little bit boring here. And I think that you've resolved the problem too quickly, Mum.

I think it needs to be. Oh, excellent. Because I spent so much time talking to him about stories. I was like a proud mom moment when he picked that up for me. Like, excellent feedback, Holka. Holka will fix that. Maybe there's writing in his future as well. Maybe. He does love to do a bit of a comic. Oh, very cool. And see him getting into that. But, yeah, no, he's very intent on working for the people who created Minecraft. He wants to go and work for them. So that's his big goal, yeah.

And what about young readers? Have you had feedback from kids on what they think about the story? I guess actually it's probably been more from their parents and librarians and things because that's usually who, you know, contacts me on social media and that sort of thing. I have gone out to read the book to a bunch of different groups, preschool and school age. and, you know, they've all been really engaged. I've had some really interesting comments. Like I remember speaking to one school

group where I said, you know, we can all think in boxes. Like we've all got boxes. It's just whether or not they're important to us. And I was trying to basically touch on how we can categorize things, right? But some people it doesn't matter and some people it's important. And this kid put his hand up and he's like, oh, but I don't have boxes in my head at all. All of my thoughts are swimming around there.

Like they're just all over the place. It was just really interesting to be able to have that moment of, oh, I've got this kid is thinking about how he thinks and that's really cool and interesting and I love that he was able to reflect on that. So those little moments are really nice with kids. And have you noticed a different response from neurotypical kids and neurodiverse kids? I think kids are so open-minded when they're young, they may not even identify kids.

I mean, to be honest, I haven't really split kids up into groups of neurodivergent and neurotypical to read it and find out. None of them are in boxes. I'm not sure. I just read it to them and, you know, they all seemed fairly interested.

I think some probably are a bit like, I don't get it. And I think it's one of those books that you need to read close up. You need to look at the pictures. You need to read it a few times. Like there's a lot to unpack in it. I love that I've used the word unpack twice in this conversation because it's related to boxes and I just feel the need to point that out. And your book's been included in book packs in Victoria. Did you want to share a bit about that? Yeah, that's exciting.

That was unexpected, exciting news. I found out the day after it was released, I didn't actually know that it was being put forward for this so um the victorian government does um prep bags each year where the school kids get five books along with some other learning resources i think in a bag when they're starting school and yeah bernie was selected to be one of those five so that'll be going out to i've been told it's about 65 000 victorian school starters next year amazing that's

wonderful yeah be like the little you know little paperback copies of it sold out print run there that's for me yeah yeah no I think it's a he's a special order I'm not sure how they're doing that exactly but publish his job but yeah it's exciting it's nice to know that so many kids all get a chance to be prompted to think about thinking I guess yeah it is an interesting thing like even at my age I'm closer

to 50 than 40 these days and that you sometimes don't really think about your own thinking.

In that I often look back and go, why have I been doing this every day the same for this many years when I know it's not working for me? Why not change some of that behaviour? And yeah, just even with your daily work going, oh, actually, I always do this this way.

Maybe it's time to change it up and do it a different way because it might be more effective, but not really acknowledging or looking at okay what style of thinker am I so I'm I wing everything it's terrible I often especially when the boys were little I would say I I feel like when whoever matches up parents and children they picked the wrong person I'm like the wrong person for these boys because I'm I'm like always dodging and weaving and okay this is coming at

me that's okay I'll just change this and then I have these two rigid little boys who even if I put two white socks on them and one might have had a bit of a one might be a smooth sock and the other one might have a little bit of a stripe in it and there would be no way they would be wearing those socks and I'm like nobody can tell the difference it's mine so yeah understanding that some of my crates.

Need to change as well so it's not just I think there's a lot of pressure when you receive a diagnosis that people want to intervene and change things and my oldest son is always like I'm actually okay mum why do I have to change why can't the world change a bit for me yeah and I think it's.

Often about meeting in the middle isn't it like you know in terms of family relationships and things like it's not necessarily that one person has to change you know the reason to change is if there's something going on that causes a problem for the individual you know and then you might want to think about changing something but if it's causing problems for other people I guess it's like yeah how do you how do you work together to to solve it I mean

I I love that you know you're talking about being spontaneous I try really hard I like the idea of being spontaneous but I can't seem to do spontaneous without accidentally planning it so it's like I like I will plan to be spontaneous and my it just becomes planned like I actually don't know for example if people go on a holiday I really struggle to plan a night away because it's like well what are we going to do where are we going to stay

what are we going to eat which places are appropriate the kids how are we going to fit it all in what times we're going to do it do we need to book things and.

You know I just I know that's a lot but I can't not do it and so recently my family like we went to the Blue Mountains for a night and I was like I'm not going to plan it we're just going to go so I went as far as booking the accommodation and then like okay I know that I know the place will just go but I just then I got stressed because I'm like but what are we doing I need to know and so then I was like forward planning in my head but

not telling anybody about it and And I was like getting annoyed when we didn't do the thing. I was like planning in my head. I just don't know how people are spontaneous. I actually physically can't do it. I just don't. I can't just be like, oh, I'll just do this thing now. Like I just, I don't know how people do it. I'll put my head in. There's nothing wrong with being organized though either.

Like if it's what, having a bit of structure in life is helpful because then your life runs smoothly. I think a little from both columns would be useful. Yeah. But I found I went to the B-Sub conference yesterday, which is the Brisbane Story Arts. I found, because I'd had such a big week and there was some – I did have a few, I guess, meltdowns that I dealt with during the week that were a little bit stressful. And by the time I'd got to the conference, I hate the word meltdowns, by the way.

We were having issues identifying what emotions we were having during the week. And so I was feeling quite, I guess, heightened. And there were a few times where I'm like, oh, actually, I just need to step away and have a little bit of quiet time because I've seen lots of people. I have a few assessments. And so that cumulative effect of having a big week and also feeling a little bit out of like, especially with assessments, because there's no control over that.

And you're sort of putting your work out and you're giving someone your heart and saying, please, sorry, hate what I've written.

Yeah. So I definitely had a few moments yesterday where I'm like, I just need a little bit of quiet time for a minute I'll grab a coffee then go back into the conference and so that feeling of having a bit of control over your universe I think is natural to all of us as well yeah now I've got some questions to ask you um so our listeners can get to know you a little bit better can you tell me what was your favorite book growing up I have to tell you before I answer

that question that I'm really really not great at being very direct to answering questions because there's so many options. So I don't think I have a favourite book growing up. I had lots of favourites. Some of them I couldn't even... No one would have even heard of them. I think they generally had themes of like not fitting in. Obviously, when I was little, I loved Dr. Seuss. I liked the wordplay and the silliness around that. I still love that sort of thing.

When I got older, it was, you know, Faraway Tree, which I'm sure half of your guests probably say it was quite a common one because I just loved the magic in it, I guess. And, you know, when the Goosebumps era came in, And I was, you know, being the stubborn, refusing to follow trends kid that I was, I refused to read Goosebumps for a very long time. So I got into another series out at the same time called Spooksville. So I learned a spooky thing to one thing.

It's changed over the years and I can't think of a favourite because it's too hot. There are so many wonderful books out there as well. Yeah. And especially if you're a voracious reader, it's really difficult to go, oh, actually, this is the one. This is the one I love the most. Yeah, it is. They're also amazing. And as an adult, I read kids' books mostly still. And so it's interesting because it's like I look back at what I read as a kid and I'm like, oh, we've got so many amazing things now.

It's like we just keep getting better at Phil sometimes. Okay. If you could be any book character, who would it be? This is also really hard. And the reason this is really hard is because writers put their characters through absolute hell to make a good story and a good character. So while some of the characters that I would like to be are amazing, I don't really want to experience their stories because they sound very scary.

I would probably say that it would be fun to be Morrigan Crow from Nevermore. So I could hang out in Nevermore and ride the broly rail and all that. But also I was tossing up between her and Elsbeth Gordy from the Urban Newton Chronicles by Isabel Carmody. I feel like her character has been with me for, I don't know, 20 years. Like I started reading that series in high school, loved it. Re-read it, finally finished it off a couple of years ago as audiobooks.

Like it's just been with me for a long time and I think she's a great character. Amazing. What are you reading right now? Have you got anything on the go? I'm currently, between books, I just finished How to Stop Time by Matt Haig, which was one of the few adult books that I read and I really enjoyed that. I love his writing. He's amazing. And I'm waiting for a bunch in series, to be honest. I'm like waiting for the next Jane Doe book. I'm waiting for the next Rhys Carter

on The Girl Called Corpse. I'm waiting for the next Book of Dust. Philip Pullman, where are you? I just feel like I'm waiting. I'm not sure if you'll like this question now. I'm terrible at answering questions. It's really bad. Continue. If you could invite five literary people to dinner, who would they be? Well, if I want a comfortable dinner, I would just invite my friends who are

writers because that would be nice and comfy. And aside from that, I think it would be a hoot to invite Shakespeare because we could all just spend the night trying to understand what he was talking about. Did he really actually write those or was it someone else? Well, I don't know. I didn't know. But I'm sure he still spoke in an old-fashioned way that would be entertaining for me to try and decipher because I was not amazing at deciphering that language in school.

I would probably invite Jeremy Lachlan because I want him to tell me how Jane Doe finishes because I need the extra book. I'd invite them publishers with the disclaimer that they would be subject to spontaneous pitches throughout the night for my stories.

And I'd probably invite Sean Avery because he is one of the most positive, enthusiastic creatives that I know. He's amazing. I don't know if that's five, but there's a bunch of people. That's okay. Great dinner at your place. You're the first person to say that you would invite publishers. I've asked about 65 people that question, so there you go. Well, I think they're useful people to chat to. They are, they are.

And to learn about the other side of the industry as well, like learning how it all works, because I think that is such a challenge when you're a new author. Yeah, it's a big story. And then there's this whole other world after the story is submitted. That's so interesting to hear how that works. What Hogwarts house are you? Oh, well, I don't know. Hang on a second. Well, I'm definitely not Slytherin. I don't think I'd go for Gryffindor, despite that probably being the most popular.

I could be a Hufflepuff. I'm not sure. I'm a Hufflepuff. I'm not sure. I haven't read the books in so long, and I did love them, and I should revisit them, but yeah, I'll go Hufflepuff. Hang out with Neville. Brave Hufflepuff. I'm married to a Slytherin, self-identified. Oh, dear. Except for he is the nicest man. He'll probably kill me. And I'm like, are you really a Slytherin? Well, it's okay. He's in charge of editing, so he can edit this part out. Yeah, it's not this bit out.

And my last question, what advice would you give yourself if you could go back to the beginning of your writing journey? Oh, good question. Probably you don't need to take every single bit of feedback on board because not everybody is right and not everybody understands your vision and there's a lot of different perspectives out there and there's no right way to do this. I think feedback is amazing and valuable and important but I think that as a new writer it can be really tricky to.

Sort of wade through all of that information and work out what resonates and what doesn't without just trying to apply it all and turning your story into a giant word salad. It can be, especially after you've had a few edits and had a bit of feedback and your story suddenly doesn't look like what it began as.

Yeah, you really, I think you do need to fight and save your story, but also acknowledge that the people, like, especially if you're dealing with editors and publishers who know their stuff, you do have to take on board what will sell.

Yeah I mean definitely I'm not saying don't listen to feedback I'm just saying you can't apply all of it at once yeah and a hundred percent like the two the two books that I've got coming out with Heidi Grant I wouldn't say completely rewrote them but I did a lot of structural work on them after they were signed and you know taking the advice and sort of doing that work with the editor there has been amazing and and so valuable so definitely feedback

is worth it it's just you can't do it all yeah so true and I I'm in the process of shelving a few stories where I feel like I've sent them everywhere and they're just not working it's like okay you have to write something new and sometimes writing a story is just an experience that you learn something from and at some point we just have to go yeah that's not going to go anywhere and that's okay because I've got something from writing

that I don't know I find that hard but they're not all going to go anywhere are they no I think just keep on writing it sounds like that's exactly what you do seeing you've got those contracts all happening that's that's so exciting I'm really pleased to hear it Jess yeah it's still a bit weird. It's still a bit weird, really, to have a book and to have contracts. I don't know. Just kind of, I mean, I can't say it just happened because it didn't.

It was actually years of work. But also it's like, oh, it just happened. How did that happen? Like, how did we do that? Yeah, it was exciting. Yeah. And when you're waiting, it feels like it's never going to happen. And I have so many conversations with people who say, I just feel like I'm never going to get a contract. And I just, I don't know.

Yeah, it can take years, can't it? but I think if you love it, you just keep doing it because you love it and eventually you'll get somewhere because you have to. Persistence and just trying again. It can be a hard journey but the rewards, especially I love getting out and meeting the kids and hearing how they've been impacted by a story. I'm looking forward to seeing more of your work as they get released.

Thank you so much for joining me, Jess. Thanks for having me.

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