Angie Cui

Music. In the spirit of reconciliation, I acknowledge the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea, and community.

I pay my respects to their elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Highland peoples today. Welcome to Totally Lit, the podcast celebrating reading, writing, and creating literature. I'm your host, Kai Garvey. Thank you for listening.

Angie Cuey, welcome to Totally Lit. Thanks for having me. Your 2025 seems to be your picture book year. I'm a bit overwhelmed, to be honest. Two books in a row, so lots of things happening. So very shortly, you've got our map coming out with Wombat Books. Would you like to share a bit about that book? Yeah, sure. So our map basically is talking about two young children, JJ and Lee. Now they discover a missing country on the map.

This relaxation makes them understand that not all places are shown on the traditional maps. So they decide to create something new, maybe their own new map, and no one can take that away ever. Is that story inspired by your own experiences? So this story is largely inspired by some casual conversations I had with the children from my kids' primary school.

And I noticed a challenge they're facing. Most of them, they don't even know where the parents come from or even they don't really know where their grandparents come from. It's a bit sad. Yeah, and also I was reading Daniel Bink's book, The Year the Map Changed. And there's one line in the book, the teacher tells the students, our maps don't always tell the truth, map to eyes. So that kind of idea kind of like stuck in my head. So I decided to write it down as a short story.

So I spent a lot of time on that story, did some research about missing country from the map. So I watched some documentary as well and had some discussion with the school kids as well as their teachers. Yeah, there's a lot of things. The map doesn't really show us what's going on in the world. And if you look at the map 2025 version, it looks so different from the one we had when we were a child. Yes. Yeah. So, so many continents changed and so many countries actually merged or

disappeared or somewhere else. Yeah. Just showing different colors, different pieces. It's quite fascinating when you look at these maps. I was like, oh my gosh, so many things changed. You probably don't even notice about that. Yeah. And with this book, how long ago did you write our map? I think I wrote this one maybe four or five years ago. It was before my first book. Our map basically was my first or second story. So I wrote so many versions, not drafts, versions.

So two main versions I had, one's with country name, with a country name, and the other version is without a country name. So each version I had maybe 20, more than 20 drafts each version. 20? Yeah, for each version, just two. A lot of drafts. That's a commitment, Angie. I'm impressed. Yeah, so I did a lot of research and I said, it's just so many countries you've been found for the last 50 years, there's so many countries missing from the map.

And some of the countries, I have never heard about it.

How did you go through the process of getting published? With our map, because I wrote so long ago, I did try to go to different conferences and try to page out through assessment for like a couple of years. And different publishers, seriously, if you see different publishers, different editors, all of them have different opinions. And I ended up like, oh my God, so many feedback. And I just got confused what

I'm going to do. So I think I met Rich O'Shell at a CYA conference, maybe two years ago. Did you come up or was that online? Online, online assessment. Yeah. I also met other publishers, not on the same day, but at the same year, 2023, yeah, two years ago. There were lots of, again, she showed her interest. I feel like she's well-connected to the story and she understands why. why I wrote a story and why I wrote two different versions.

I actually told the version I gave it to her is a, it was without the country name. She's like, oh, it's quite interesting. In the whole assessment, you know, you need to, you probably submit two stories, but we will just talk about our vibes the whole time. And I knew she was into it and I knew she loved it. Then she started about, you know, offered me a contract at the conference also. Amazing, that's so exciting. It was amazing.

Yeah, and our lab actually got lots of interest in 2023 of that year in the conference. There were other publishers who were requesting to see the full manuscript, you know, revised version, updated version after feedback, something. But I feel Rochelle is more connected to the story and I feel she understands it more. I think that's so important when you're working together with the publisher. You want them to understand you and the story because it is, when you're writing stuff,

It's so close to your heart. Like you really want to have someone that cares about your work and can see your vision. Yeah, so I got some feedback through CYA and also before that, a few months before, I went to Kid Lit Fake as well. I also got some feedback. Some publishers basically, you know, they have seen my other story as well. One of them suggests me maybe merge both, you know, in one, two in one, and I try to work it, but I don't know.

It's quite interesting when you play with your manuscript. You can move things around. Foolish story. Some publishers feel it's a big story in a small book, and some publishers feel it's political, controversial. Not everyone, like Rochelle, is really confident to get this book published. Also, because I wrote two main versions, you sort of like gamble which version you want to choose to pitch to that publisher or which one you want to give to the other publisher.

Yeah, it's kind of a luck as well. You just never knew who would be interesting, who wouldn't.

It's a challenge. I'm about to do a round of pitching and submitting and I'm trying to decide because I've got five or six manuscripts and realistically I have them all published but I'm like, oh, I really need to do some research to make sure I match is this the right manuscript to submit to this publisher and do I waste that opportunity if I don't pick the right manuscript as well because if publishers only open once a year and you can only submit one thing,

then it's a full 12 months before. You have to wait for another year. And they're all like my little babies. It's so sad. You have to pick up, you have to choose your favourite child. It's hard. Yes, yes. And sometimes it feels like every publisher in the country has seen a piece of, like I've got one specific manuscript I really would love published, but I feel it's gone everywhere. and I'm like, what do I do with that now? Do I just sit on it and focus on something different?

And what do you do in those situations? Depends on feedback. Okay, if it's like six people, six different feedback, then maybe just leave it at a moment. Then later on, choose what is right for you. But if it's a couple feedback and most of them are really positive, I would say have another goal. Okay. That sounds like a good piece of advice. I hope everybody's listening to that. Depends on feedback, to be honest. If it's just lots of people say, no, no, no, it's not good, it's not good.

Maybe just leave that for a moment. Six people, to be honest, depends on how many publisher, editor you see or agents. Depends on how many you book the year. It's a lot of money as well. Well, yeah, it can be if you're pitching face-to-face and you've purchased that opportunity. It's like, oh, this is a big investment this year. Also, I just realized recently, I realized that my manuscript probably is not that commercial.

That is a challenge too, when it's a message that you want to share, but it also has to be marketable. Yeah, so you need to know your target. And you need to understand the publishing house as well. Some of them are big ones, are quite commercial. You know, they produce maybe 80 to 100 books a year in children's lists. And some of them just in tiny lists. Yes. It depends on the publisher and depends on your story. I realized my one,

most of my one are commercial enough. So I have stopped myself sending my manuscript to all. So, yeah, so I just look into the publishing process first and see what kind of title they have published in the recent years. Yeah, and go from there. And also, again, depending on the feedback you get from them, you may want to sit in your manuscript for a couple of months and work on something new. Mm-hmm.

And then later on, come back to it. Yeah. I feel like you are dominating the Queensland publishers at the moment. You've got Wombat Books and two coming out with UQP. Oh, I'm sorry. My Mum is a Bird is already out. Sorry, no. I have another one next year. Oh, excellent. So how have you felt working with Queensland publishers? Have you been enjoying it? I love it. It's really good. I mentioned in another podcast, like they offer me, again, and lots of flexibilities. Everything is about me.

What do you want? What do you like? Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, I got a chance to choose my own illustrator. I don't know. I feel like I've been treated like a princess. Princess Angie, I love it. So, I love it. Just they look after me so well. Yeah. Fantastic. I'm coming down to Melbourne in two weeks for Kid Lit Vic. Will you be there? Yes, I will be there. So My Mom is a Bird is actually a successful story from Kid Lit Vic. Oh, really?

My book will be displayed in their pop-up bookshop. The bookshop so we can buy a copy down there? Fantastic. This is the first time I'll be traveling down. I did go to an online version last year that I'm kind of getting excited to just be able to meet all the Victorian creators down there and just see people that I've only met online before. I've got an up close and personal and an assessment, but I don't think I picked the right person for me. Which way have you walked in?

Which way have you walked in? I've got an assessment with Scholastic, which I'm very excited about, but don't do this people, read what you're purchasing because it's so quick when you jump on to get your, try and, something they go so quickly and I didn't read that they weren't taking picture books so I did have something I could submit that was like an early reader middle grade but it was just something I whipped out of my back pocket so it would be good for the experience

and to connect with Scholastic but I'm like oh that that wasn't my goal my goal was to try and get some picture books in front of people but it just is like part of the game a little bit you have to think So just one session you're booked in. Yeah, yeah, because everything went so quickly. I think you can approach them at UCP session. You could ask them, are you guys taking any picture books? You can ask. I know they didn't say it in the website or somewhere, but you can always ask.

I think, yeah, if you ask, and they can always say no. Yeah, but that doesn't work. So you don't have to stray away, you know.

You don't have to, you know, slip with it. oh is she taking picture books a lot you don't have to worry about you can just ask ask them you know yeah and if they don't that's okay then what else is interesting you can ask the question have you got some exciting opportunities set up were you able to get the sessions that you'd hoped for i think about taking it for the workshop self-editing with luna from huddy ground she It does give really good feedback.

That's really important. When you go to conference, I think you get a chance to ask whether or not they're into your story. And also, you can decide is this someone you really want to work with or collaborate with or something you know you can learn from. I'm still at that point in my career where I'm like, yes, I will agree to anything. I'm so easy to work with. I will not put up.

Any fight. Although I think if somebody had asked me to change something very important in a story, I would stand up for it. I've got one piece I'm working on at the moment where it's been suggested I merge my characters together. And I'm like, no, it's really important to me that they're separate characters. There will be a time where I need to make that decision on, do I want this to sell or do I want it to be the way?

I met with Hardy Grant last year at BSAB up here in Brisbane and presented a manuscript and it's because my first book is a book about my dad and I. I've written something that's about my mum and I. So Easy Peasy was about my dad teaching me to skate and now I have a book that's about my mum teaching me to read. She had some learning difficulties when she was growing up and she was very passionate about making sure I learnt to read. But I could read quite naturally, like it was very easy for me.

So all the things that she was doing, she didn't really need to do. But she was trying to teach me something that she had trouble learning herself, whereas I'm like, oh, Mum, you've spelt that wrong or you've done this wrong. Just being a little bit cheeky. So, but yeah, just that, like, it's a special time learning to read with your parents. And especially, I think all of us want our children not to have any of the challenges we've had ourselves as well.

So, we want to have, for them to have a better life than we've had. And that was what my mum wanted. And I just picked up a full-length novel when I was six.

So, I was like, it's okay, mum, I'm reading. so but yeah I wanted to yeah just have for her because she'd always buy me like a hard cover book for my birthday or go she would go and line up and get a book signed for me and I'm like oh those are beautiful things that my mum was gifting to me and that's why I'm a writer, now, so I'd love to give her the gift of a book about her.

But I just have to get it right. You just have to get the manuscript and the story right and find the right home for it as well.

So this story is signed with Hadi Gran, is that right? I've presented it to them and they said they would see a rewrite. So I've got to figure out if I can make it more marketable. And that's kind of, it's a challenge for everyone when you need, I think it does need significant changes. I guess here's a conflict, like, do you really want to change the way they want you to do it? Or you want to get published? I keep telling myself that, you know, you always have the choice.

You can write the story you want. And you can write a story, you know, whoever wants to publish it. That's between literary and commercial. And there's so much patience that you have to have as well in that once you've written it as well as you can write it, you then have to submit. And it could take a number of years for someone to turn their head and say, oh, yes, this is what we would like to publish. And just learning how much energy you put into it.

It takes time. our map takes about a whole five years you know I actually wrote My Mom is a Bird my first one my debut after five or six to start after it's actually quite new. Timing is an issue as well not just luck also the timing and the map kit you don't have to write something which is trendy at the moment like everyone else is so alphabetical or something else You don't have to follow the trend, but also you want to get published.

Well, it's a challenge because if you want to maintain a writing career, it's nice to have a book published. But if you want to take your writing further, you need to continue to get published. And that can be challenging. Yeah, kind of like you need to wait up. Your short-term goal only the long-term objective, I'll say. Yeah. It's really, again, you have the choice. You have the choice, you know.

You can always talk to your publisher or editor, whoever you've been in contact with, how you can write the story better. Let them guide you. Yes. A good publisher wouldn't let you to change yourself. They would guide you through. I think it's good to get advice from those people that have the experience and the understanding of the market as well because they're kind of on the other side. Yeah, you can just have an honest conversation with them.

I know you haven't signed a contract or whatever, but you want to work with them, not just get to sign a contract or something.

When our manuscript got requested by a publisher, we all want to get published. We're all ambitious. But the thing is, we want to keep the story we wrote. We don't want the story to get twisted. Well, because it can change so much when you're continually getting feedback. You're like, okay, I'll change this part. And then the next lot of feedback, it's another part that needs to change. And you still want the element of your story to be there.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Depends. It really depends. What do they want you to change? A good publisher wouldn't like you to change yourself. They would guide you. True, true. What I feel about my publishers, I found they understand me, understand my story more than I know myself. When I got my first structure, I was like, oh my God, what am I going to do? So many red and blue and yellow, different color marks. And then I realized, no, hold on a second, I could do it in a better way.

But why I didn't realize that before? I think we get so close to it, it's difficult for us to see our way through and having someone else just go, oh, how about this, do a little tweak here or move things a little bit there and then it can help. Yeah, when I got my first structure I did it for My Mom is a Bird, my publisher was giving me so many suggestions. Also, there are a few things I have to delete, like kill your darlings. Yes. Because lots of things can show you an illustration.

I don't have to say it. But I really love the sentence. I really love that part. I don't want to remove it. I love to put big words in and I often get messages going, oh, would a young person understand that word? That's a challenge. How would they learn it if it's not, yeah, my attitude is… You don't say it clear. How about we expose them to those wonderful, amazing words and they're learning as well. But I do understand that I'm probably too verbose with some of my picture books.

Yeah. And I was like, if I don't say things properly, if I don't write properly, how are these young readers going to understand what I'm talking about? But with picture books, illustration is magic. Yes. I basically said I made a skeleton. My illustrators just added a soul, you know, to the skeleton. Yes. And together we made a book. It's amazing that there's a whole other story that's injected into the picture book with the illustration.

Yeah. You don't have to say a word. My book has a little duck nearly on every page. And the kids love him so much. And it's just brought the story to life, just having that extra element that I didn't even think of. It's like a partnership that you have with your illustrator where they bring everything to life for you.

Yeah also it's writing picture books is hard my plan was my family i had i had five year plan okay before that i was writing articles for sbs and mbc i was reading picture books with my kids and they were like oh mommy you read a book with me i was like okay and one day i was like oh maybe i could write something like that but i didn't realize how hard writing picture books you know would be. Because it's only 500 words.

Yes, trying to keep it under 500. Trying to make a movie within 500 words, it is hard. You did just refer to your article writing, and I was going to ask you a bit about that. So you've been quite prolific writing for publications like SBS, ABC, Kids Spot. So that was pre-children's writing? Yes. So I was working for the banks for NAB at that time and got two young children and I wanted to spend time with them.

I was Googling online, like what kind of job, you know, what kind of job I can do, you know, can stay at home, stay with my kids, a little bit of money as well. And now I found freelance writing. I worked in a bank for many years. Oh, which one? I did work for NAB at the beginning of my career, and then I also worked for a credit union for 12 years in Sydney. And being in a small organisation like that, for that length of time, it's like your family.

But I'd found I'd kind of had just fallen into the job, and it wasn't my dream. And I remember having my two little boys and I would leave at seven in the morning and sometimes not get home till seven at night and my wonderful dad would drop them off at before school care and pick them up in the afternoon and then I would just sort of see them as they were going to bed at night and just one day I was like, oh, there's got to be more to life than this.

And that was when I started doing my Bachelor of Arts degree and chipping away at that. And the creative writing was just an elective in that course, but that's where I was getting my highest marks. And I was like, oh, there's something in this. And so when I graduated, then I started like entering competitions and winning a few writing awards. And I'm like, okay, so I'm not deluded. There is something in this. but then figuring out how to actually make it a reality.

And I think there's a lot of us as writers that are still caught between our daytime lives where we're earning money to pay our rent or our mortgage and make sure we're feeding the family and then we've got our creative pursuits that we just fit into the cracks. And the dream is that you can make more time to be writing. But what I have found is I have just created a whole lot more work for myself.

But I do love it and I'm much more content and happy in myself because I'm feeling like I'm aligned with who I'm meant to be and it will be a five-year or ten-year plan for more books and things like that. But you've just got to play the long game, I think. Yeah, it is more work. Yes. But do you feel happier? Yeah, well, I've discovered things I never knew about myself, so I am suddenly a podcaster. And I'd always dreamt of writing, but it was just like, oh, I would like to

be a writer. So there wasn't any idea of what that actually means. So the first time you see your own book in your hand is... So different, so special. Yeah, you have to experience it. I think it's the same as when you have a baby. You don't have any concept of what it will be like. So when you have your first book, it's like, oh, this is like a wonderful thing. I would like that to continue to happen.

Yeah, I remember the last few years I went to other people's book launches, book events, and seeing other people's book displays outside the bookshop. I was like, why is it my turn? I think we've all been through that. I've chatted with other authors where we're like, We love our writing friends and we are so happy for them. But then there's also that bittersweet feeling of, oh, when is it my turn?

I think if you're persistent and you learn as much as you can and you write as well as you can and you keep submitting, it will be your turn. But I think it's, yeah, a conflict that writers have that we do want to cheer everybody on. But there's also that element of, oh, I feel like my career isn't going anywhere at the moment. What can I do to make it go forward? And some of it is really in the hands of someone else.

Except for, I think that the only way you're going to have another book is if you write it and submit it. So as long as you're writing and submitting, that's how your career keeps moving forward. I keep writing, but at the moment I never said this. But I hardly submit my work to SlashPiles. So going to conference is my only way to get my work in front of the publishers. People do get published from the Plush. I heard that, but I... From the piles, but it hasn't happened to me, though.

Mine came to an opportunity. Yeah, it hasn't happened to you and me yet. But the thing is, I don't know, I just want a sharp, quick one. Yes. Like when you go to a conference, you can get the answer straight up. Although it is nerve-wracking face-to-face to sit down and have a conversation and then wait for that answer. I'm a really direct person, like transparent. and I basically ask whoever I'm seeing, are you interested in my manuscript? Do you want to see it again?

I don't really see, I'm not going to say that you're going to publish. I never ask that, but I just want to ask, are they interested in seeing it again? Yes. Now that's in a way, kind of like try to ask them, you know, any possibilities. Some of them, you know, they probably just hesitate like, I'm not sure. Now you know. If the publisher loves your manuscript, it's definitely going to say yes.

And then put through to accusation. But if the publisher wasn't confident with the manuscript in the first place, then there's no way it could go through the accusation stage. Well, because you need your publisher to fight for you because potentially at acquisitions, there will be a whole heap of sales questions. Which may turn the answer to a no. So you really want the person presenting it to love it and fight for it because you're not there to do that yourself.

I had a conversation with my publisher the other day. She told me that she had an accusation. The whole day, I didn't even check my mobile email. I was so scared.

She just laughed about it was all right. Yeah, it was good news. but authors, we love to scare ourselves up. It's such a nerve-wracking business we've put ourselves into. I don't know why we don't. I mean, we all want to get published. Even manuscript, the publisher loves the story and then it's gone to an accusation. It's quite scary. That's dangerous. It's just, oh my God, can we just do a skip level? I think I would prefer not to know about the acquisitions.

Just come back and say yes or no. Don't let me know about the middle part. I know. It's hard. It's hard. It's a publisher-level story and suddenly failed an accusation in it. It's just that close to get published. Yes. So are you able to share anything about your upcoming book with UQP or is that still under wraps? That one, I don't think I can share anything yet. We have to wait. We have to wait. But it's different.

My mom's bird and our map, these two books, I'm not sure if you have read it, both of them are quite different. Yes. Talk about different themes. My mom's bird is about acceptance, being different self-identity.

Our map is more about belonging, heritage, friendship, and empathy, diversity as well. But next story is going to be different. It's going to be a different theme, different style of writing as well. For me, I don't want to challenge myself too much, But I feel as a writer, we should be able to write in different styles, different genres, different themes. I don't want to frame myself in a certain category. Oh, she's a fantasy writer or she's a diversity writer.

The only part I find challenging when you are writing in different genres is how to market yourself.

Like it's very easy to market yourself as a picture book author but then having a whole like for instance because I have a have the podcast as well as my writing it's like how do I fit all of that onto a business card it's a little bit challenging but in that being said like I always like enter various different writing competitions to challenge myself to try something new or see if I can write something different.

But so far at the moment, short stories and picture books are my area of expertise. I think you can do it slow. Short story is always a good start. Our map was a short story. Again, same as my mom is a bird. I never thought I would write picture books. My mom is a bird, I thought I would write a wild fantasy. Big scary fantasy. It turned out that mom is a bird, don't see next animal. a small picture book. Our map originally was just a short story, family story.

Yeah, I sent it to a school magazine before Bella rejected me. I think some of it's a numbers game as well. You just have to go, okay, it's gone there. They've said no. Where else? Where is next? It was a numbers game. But now I realize, again, I have to mention it depends on the manuscript. Yeah. It's a commercial now. If it's not, I'm not going to stop me to that place ever.

I think you've definitely got an eye for, like, you've got many articles published and those kind of publications don't just accept anyone in terms of you can throw 500 or 1,000 words together, but unless it is on brand or on topic, you know, especially with current events, they're going to publish the things that, I guess, that you've tailored for those publications. So obviously you've had a bit of an eye,

to be able to do that? Writing articles are different from writing books or any other books. Articles are really easy to write, especially first-person piece. Basically, I just share my own experience, what I see, what I experience, what I hear. SBS, I think, is mainly about cultural food and diversity, about my own family. My kids are Australian-born. My husband is originally from Bangladesh. I'm Chinese. So, someone told me that's kind of like a selling point, you know, why I mentioned that.

Oh, I got ABC Family, but it's not Australian-born Chinese, it's Australian-Bungladesh Chinese. But I really don't want to use it constantly. Well, yeah, I can understand that. So, when I write articles, I try to write in different angles. What do we eat? What kind of food can I share? or SBS food, of course, and also talk about cross-cultural marriage and kids with second language at home. Yes. Because English is not my first language.

So on ABC, there was an article I was talking about how can I teach my kids, you know, how to speak in another language where their primary language is English at home.

Because me and my husband, we speak English at home, you know. It is so hard to train them to speak in Bengali or Chinese. Because they were like, oh, hold on a second, you guys understand English. So there's no point for us to learn another language. But on the other hand, we do want them to understand our mother tongue so they can communicate with their grandparents. But this generation, they speak a totally different alien language anyway. So true.

I just learned something new from my kids, like squivity. What does squivity mean? I still do not know what it means. I have heard it. And then cap. It's a cap. That means it's a letter. I was like, oh, wow, that's something new. Yes. I'm wondering if it's in the dictionary, but anyway. I have noticed that at school and library visits now, I definitely don't understand what the kids are saying to me. And I'm like, oh, no, I'm so uncool.

Cool, I'm sick. Sass. What does that mean? I was like, is it good or bad? Should I response or not? Well, the thing too, like things that you think you can figure out actually mean nothing like what you thought. Because usually you can like deduce what something means, but it's like, oh, no, I'm completely out of my depth here. Yeah. yeah and yesterday my kids was like oh mom which year you were born 2001 I was like oh no yeah, It's very grounding. It reminds you of who you are.

I was having a conversation with a friend while my son was in the room and she was asking me about my book. And I was like, oh, well, Lachlan inspired some of the book, but I don't think he's even read it. He's like, oh, Mum, I looked at the cover. I'm like, okay. Like, it's only a picture book. It's not that long to read. You could read it, but neither of my sons have read my book. Bring you back down to earth pretty quick. So they don't hold that leg? My sons are 19 and 22, so they are beyond.

But yeah, I don't think they would be impressed by anything, to be honest. Yeah, my son is nine. My daughter is almost eight. They're a little bit all right. You might be able to get street cred when you meet other authors, though. So if you meet someone that kids think are cool, you say, yeah, they're my writing friend. Although I think writers aren't considered the coolest gang, to be honest. It's nice to have a couple of friends. Yes. That's something I've been very

grateful for is the amazing writing friends I have now. Yeah. When you're first starting out, it's a very lonely world being a writer. Well, writing is a lonely job. I wouldn't say job, sorry. Writing is a lonely task. It's a lonely task. You are a writer. You're supposed to suffer. One friend told me, she said, she's a writer as well. She said, as a writer, you're supposed to suffer. That's why you can write a good story. So you suffer first, you write a good story.

It's probably ironic to be kid-lit authors. And in the background, we're like, oh, art is pain. But then being out in the world visiting kids and being upbeat and excited can be a challenge. Here's the thing. My anxiety hits me really bad. It gets me all the time. When I was published, you want to get published. Once you get published, you're asking, when's my next one? Oh, it's terrible. And then in the meantime, you think about your sales for your current one. And then you look at other ones.

After a few months, your book got released. And then there's more coming. Other people's book released. Yes. And you start comparing. And then you start thinking about the reviews, the comments, the messages. And in the meantime, you worry about your next one. And then after that, there will be valuable awards, rights overseas offers, translation offers, again, your royalties, again, your next deal.

Again, you think about all these things. And you have to think about the money, how you're going to pay for your bill, your kids' education, your other things. There's a lot of things to worry about. I'm trying to keep myself down for the last few months. Just before my book launch, I almost gave it up. Like my published book, booked a book launch for me. And again, I booked another book launch story time for our map as well. Every time people ask me how you feel about it. Oh, exciting.

So happy for me, so exciting. I was like, I'm happy for myself. I'm not excited as well. Sure. But you know yourself, sometimes I just want to run away.

I want to hide somewhere and I the other day I, almost sent a message to the group of people I know I think I'm done I don't want to be in this community I do feel like that regularly where I'm like I'm never going to record another podcast I'm never going to write another word it's all too hard and I share it online sometimes, because I want other people who are feeling the same to realize that it's normal and okay and like we're all trying to stay motivated and

keep going and that the outside look of success isn't what it looks like from the inside as well because I think we often will look at other authors and go look at look at what they're doing they've got another book and you you are comparing yourself and beating yourself up. The other side of the girls are always great. Always great.

Yeah. Yeah. The other day I almost sent a message to my group, I almost said, I can't I don't think I can do this anymore because the message keep popping up and people share their thoughts, comments. I just feel all that work. I just feel a bit too much. I mail the message, but still, you know, you want to see what's going on. You want to see the updates. But yeah, I just feel like it's too much. My mobile just feels like I got a few messages.

You know, sometimes you just look at mobile, check on Instagram or other socials, updates, any reviews, anyone post anything about your book or any news or someone else get an offer again. I think we are kind of looking for that dopamine hit as well in that, oh, I put out this many things out into the universe. What has come back? Oh, nothing. That feels bad. But then when something does come through, you're like, oh, hooray, I feel good again now.

And I think we can get a bit addicted to that cycle of when a yes comes through where we're really feeling good. But the other side of it is when there's a no, it takes you quite low. So it can affect your mental health as well. Yeah, I think so, yeah. For our map, I also want to talk about the illustration. Yes.

Who is your illustrator? Novia Arianto. I hope I pronounced her name right. And how much did you work together on the illustrations or did she just come back to you with a full set of illustrations? I would say a different publishing experience from one publisher to another. I think Rochelle chose her because she worked with Novia before. So this is Novia's second book. It's my second one as well. I think she published another book last year with a one bite.

So this time I didn't get a chance to choose the illustrator at all. I didn't know who Novia was. She texted me on Instagram two years ago after I signed the contract or something. And then she's like, hi, Angie, I'm an illustrator. So basically just introduced herself to me. Yeah. After that, we just keep in touch. She's a really nice person. And she came to Melbourne to see me. Oh, awesome. Yeah. She's like a sister to me.

Oh, I love that. Yeah. So she showed me. So when she was in Melbourne, she showed me her raps, like black and white versions. I like her personality and her artwork. I think people may underestimate her illustration skill because they think that she might be a new illustrator. So she doesn't have a high profile yet. But from our map, you can see she put lots of details in illustration and also i want to say that without giving her any.

Backstories so Rochelle my publisher didn't give her any backstories so the story is about a missing country from the map but I didn't mention the country name in the story so without giving her any backstories and she got it right she just got it nailed it yeah amazing the story when she was in Melbourne, she told me she did some research and she was looking up Second World War and recently, you know, the political change in Asia based on the Vietnam War.

And then she, yeah, she just put lots of details in the illustration. When she told me it's based on the Vietnam War, I was like, yes, you got it. I'm just looking at her profile on the one book's site now. So her background, she's Indonesian and is residing in Sydney. She's in Sydney. She's got a lovely bright photo on the site as well. Yeah. So it sounds like she's bringing some of her culture and background to the book as well. I love it. Yeah.

Well, she's put every single colour in there. I think that's – I don't think I could be an illustrator. Because I look at illustrations and go, I would never have even thought of that. It's so many details she put in there. So look at the slides. Hi, Navea, we're talking about you. I hope you can hear us. I'll tag you in the show notes and the socials so you can see it. She's doing a great job. She's doing a great job. She's doing a great job. She nailed it.

Because for me, I have a habit. I don't really give any illustration off. So same as my mom is a bird, I didn't give any illustration off to Evie Barrow. Unless my publisher or, you know, let's even come back and say, oh, there's something not clear. Do you want this one? Do you want that one? Then, that is my time to get feedback. Otherwise, it's just pure story without illustration. I want illustrator to have a go, have fun with the story first.

I don't want to, you know, give them any creative block. So many illustrations, for me, it's just going to mess up their creativity. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so exciting to see your illustrations for the first time. I just go, oh my goodness. Oh, she showed me. Yes, she gave me updates on illustration. I was so grateful to have her here. I didn't see the internal arts before. After a show, later on, Rochelle showed me, I was like, oh, wow, that's really good.

Now, I know that you are going to be in Brisbane for a book launch soon. What date is that? So my book launch is going to be on the 8th of June, a Sunday at S.K. Patch Books in Kew. I'm going to have a book launch over there for our map. And another story time on the 29th of June at Reading Space Culture for our map. Then July, I'm going to CYA Conference to share the successful story because this is from CYA Conference. Amazing.

27th of July, it's a Sunday, I will have another book launch for my mum is a bird on that day. And that'll be, is it where the wild things are? Where are the wild things are? And 9.30, yes. And Rhonda Uy will be doing a launch on the same day? I think on Wednesday 11th. Yeah. I think they doubled up booking, booked our book launchers, so later on, I just moved my one, we just moved our one to NASA already. What a treat to two southern writers here in Queensland on the same day.

Yeah, and I've got a surprise guest as well. Oh, that's exciting. Yeah. Well, I am going to be coming along to say hello, so that will be good. So you will definitely have one guest in the audience. It's so terrifying having a book launch and going, how many people are going to show up? I was scared, but Danielle Binks was my MC. Yes. Yeah. She's amazing. She's amazing. She got me. Everything just happened so fast. I think within a half an hour or something.

So before I was welcomed, acknowledged the country. Then my daughter did a bird dance to match him with Z. Then later on, I and Danielle Binks died. We did Q&A. Then, next moment I know, I did a reading and after that, it just, people come in, start buying books, start book signing, we've, we've prepared these activity packs and we didn't do any activities. Oh no! We didn't do any activities on the day, we were just like, I don't know, suddenly book signing, eating cookies, yeah.

It's all over the place, yeah.

It's been lovely to chat to you, Angie, and I really appreciate your insights into the publishing industry as well, because it is something all of us are going through as authors that, dream of being published, then you are actually published, then you've got to figure out how to actually keep being published and it's an up and down roller coaster. I feel like I might have some opportunities to meet you face to face very soon so that's very exciting and I will see you at your launch.

Surely we're going to recognize each other. Thank you so much for having me tonight. Thank you.

Totally lit is an independent podcast you can help support us to continue to chat with wonderful australian creatives by leaving a review on itunes or sharing our socials with your friends you can also make a contribution at www.buymeacoffee.com backsplash totally lit this will also help with equipment and podcasting platform fees i love to interact with our listeners, so feel free to say hello either by email or social media at totallylitpodcast at gmail.com, or you can find me on Facebook,

Insta, LinkedIn, and Twitter, and now Blue Sky. I've also created a group on Facebook called the Totally Lit Writing Community. It's a space to continue the conversation and share your writing successes, events, launches, and latest projects. Jump into the group and say hello. Thank you for listening to Totally Lit, and don't forget to go out into the world to read, write, create, ignore. Music.