Welcome back to Top5 brought to you by DefinedTalent. We are a results-driven service working with clients to connect them with quality talent as well as working to make an impact within the recruiting industry. We talk straight about today's professional world with real world professionals, experts in recruitment, job seekers and business owners alike. Have a question for us? Send it in and you might spur our next conversation. I'm Tara Thurber, Director of
Talent Innovation. And joining me today to discuss his Top5 Tips to FIGURE IT OUT is Jimmy Levin, a full-time career coach at Stony Brook University, where he manages two communities, Business and Arts and Communications. He also has a consultancy, job search therapy that specializes in career transition. Hey, Jimmy, how are you today?
Doing well, thank you, are you?
I'm doing well. It's a pleasure to have you. And it's been such a long time. And I'm so excited to be reconnected with you and just being on a podcast with you and having you a part of this.
Well, I appreciate you reaching out. And you're right long overdue to reboot.
Right.
Our own personal conversations. And, and from that, here we are doing this.
Yeah, yeah.
Thanks for having me.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, Jimmy, I'm gonna kick this off. I mean, you've got an amazing story. And I would love it if you could walk us through your professional journey and explain, you know why you had to pivot your career so suddenly and where it's brought you to now.
So, okay, the short version.
(laughs)
I know we're pressed for time. So the short version is most of my life. All I wanted to ever be was a photographer from the time I was a kid. I remember using my dad's box camera, which I, by the way, still have in my collection. But I was mesmerized by this box that you click the button - back in the day with film, you had to wait five days, but you got pictures.
(laughs)
So capturing time and moment there was something even at a young age, I kind of understood that. And that's what I pursued educationally. So I'm Franconia College, which at the time was more of an experimental school aka Hippies on the Hill, they called it and they had a great photo department. So I majored in photography, art and design got my degree there, but they also had what was called
outreach program. Similar to an internship there was a photographer whose work I knew really well a guy named Joel Brodsky, was famous record covers The Doors, Bob Marley, Stones, it was just Aretha Franklin. I
Wow. mean, he really he worked with them all - iconic imagery of a lot of rock 'n roll people. So I
sought him out. And I interviewed with him and he took me for the outreach program, the last semester of my junior year, and I established myself to a point and there's a lesson learned there establish yourself just by working hard, being genuine and doing extra and never saying 'no'. But after that internship ended, he walked me to the door and said, when you're done with school, call me you have a job. Wow.
I finished school. I stayed in touch with them. Now, mind you, this predates emails and cell phones.
(laughs)
You know, in fact, when I call their studio, I looked at a number of in the Yellow Pages. Many of my students don't even know what that is.
Right, right (laughs).
A woman answering the phone and I asked him I speak to Mr. Brodsky, who's calling identified myself and a second later, he picked up the phone and that would never happen today.
Wow.
We're so insulated by the tech and the voicemails and everything. So that was how it all began. So true to his word. When I came back to New York, I gave him a heads up and he said, Alright, when you're ready, come on in. So I started as second assistant in one of the top Studios in New York. I didn't know he was a big fashion-beauty guy, but he had big brand stuff there too. So I
was 21 years old. And I was 22 years old and surrounded by all these crazy musicians and every famous model in the industry,
Wow.
...all the makeup people. And my first day in the studio, the studio manager paraded me around studio ABC with magnificent duplex, a couple of dressing rooms, production room and then he said, This is your office. I said whoa, I got an office.
(laughs)
He opened the door and it was the broom closet.
(laughs)
I got the message that I would be the maintenance man but it's okay. Within two weeks that studio was never more immaculate, organized. And they saw something in me that - this guy is a go-getter.
Yeah.
And within a couple of weeks, I was on camera and I was working with the crew. So I worked for him a second assistant for system studio manager and then I worked for a couple of different studios in New York as a freelance assistant, production coordinator. And the 1980's I opened up my own shop I had a couple clients in my pocket and I just felt this is my time. I signed a lease and had a magnificent 6,000 square foot studio on 28th Street
Wow.
...in the Federal District before it was really a photo district actually. And I was up and running.
Wow.
So I specialize in kids, I always like kids and lifestyle, and I chose to do that. And um, before I knew it, I was working for Scholastic, Mattel, Fisher Price. Shot the Huggies campaign for a number of years, I worked for every global ad agency in New York. And really what it came down to was, I chose a career, something I loved and was passionate about, I was successful at making that happen. I had a great run, I did what I loved, I made a nice living. And then in 2007, things
changed. I was diagnosed with a retinal disease, retinal condition. And I had career-ending eye surgery. And the surgery was in October of that year, and then three months recovery, and the doc said you may not be able to do this anymore. And of course, I thought that's nonsense. But when I was ready to try, I just couldn't do it. I couldn't articulate the same way I didn't have the same muscle stamina.
Yeah.
You know, it just wasn't stable. And in any industry, if you can't do something 100% Don't do it.
Yeah.
Because at some point, you can't fake it till you make it
Right!
At some point, you'll get caught. So I had to take a big step backwards and reassess "me." And I had no clue what I could do what I wanted to do all I ever wanted to do as a photographer. So I started to talk to people
Right.
Made sense. Before I knew it, I had been networking, I didn't see this networking to me, I was reaching out to friends in the industry, just talking - personal friends in different industries, just kicking it around, exploring ideas, and offers were made, but nothing that was going to scratch the itch.
Right.
And through a referral, an art director friend of mine, asked me to talk to a woman that owned a recruiting company. I went to meet her, this predates you and I meeting,
Yup.
I meet this woman. I'm not going to get into names of companies, she was wonderful lady - we met, were supposed to meet for an hour, we spent almost three hours together and she said I don't need another desk here. But you sound like you got something going. So let's try it. And I said before we commit, why don't I come in for a few weeks shadow you and your other staff and see what it feels like if it's a good fit. Awesome. If it's not, no harm, no foul.
Right.
She's Oh, awesome idea. So you know, at some point, you stop seeing just a photographer, you start to evaluate what's your core, what's your essence. And that's what I do with clients today in transition. I wasn't just a photographer, I was a businessman, I was an entrepreneur, I was a business owner, I hired people fired people, I manage budgets for myself, I met for clients. So there were more moving parts to me than I really was aware of.
And when you start to see yourself in a larger picture, it's easy to present yourself.
Yup.
And that's really what recruiters do as a present talent. And that's really part of what a career coach does. Again, I had none of this in that perspective - At the time. It was just what I did. I kept a journal, I loggged everything I did. Don't ask me why I just did it. But it became from a business model where I am today, so fast forwarding, I took the commitment with this company. But there was some couple of people that work there that just didn't fit my profile.
Yeah.
Just I found them to be somewhat toxic.
Mmm hmm.
And they didn't see me as another revenue source or another colleague, they saw me as a threat and competition. So therefore we just never quite found any common ground. And then I met Steve Hirschfeld,
Yeah!
Through networking. And that got me to where you and I met!
Right?!
So I continued on the path. But I also had a mandate, I wouldn't put talent in front of a client for a special job, a good job without talking to them from come to my office, but it was my mandate. It was my way of preparing, them coaching them and making sure they were ready.
Yeah.
And there were many who with experience that said "I don't need to do that." And I thought oh, yes, you do. You know, because they always get something out of that. Anyway, there was a young art director I was coaching for and preparing for an interview. And he said to me, this is really awesome. You're like a job search therapist. And that was my aha moment. I went home that night with the URL jobsearchtherapy.
(laughs)
And I decided you know what? I don't need to be a full time recruiter, I like this coaching thing. So I looked into certifications, got and all that and slowly transitioned away from working for a company, I had a couple of clients, there was like a boutique recruiting company.
Yup.
I then focused on getting young talent. And that got me to universities. And before I knew what they love, my backstory, I was lecturing, presenting creating workshops,
Wow.
Stony Brook was one of them. And I got to know the director of the career center, because she attended a couple of my workshops, we would have coffee on a regular basis. And I made it clear that I would love to work in a university, because that college demographic needs help.
Definitely, yup.
He saw in me, not what my colleagues have. They're all masters and PhDs. I got an undergrad degree in photography, art and design.
(laughs)
But she saw the value of my 30 years out there.
Yeah.
I used to tell people that my PhD is really passion, heart and drive.
I just got goosebumps. I LOVE THAT!
So that's my PhD, and it was my experience that, oh, look, I have a good gift for gab and I was knowledgeable, and all of that. So I had the practical side. But I had this additional quality that again, my colleagues and they're awesome my colleagues are great. They're brilliant. But they're mostly academically-trained. I've got the experience out there and can bring that in.
Yeah.
We do all kinds of panel discussion. So I can rely on my network, I can bring in people from you know, publicists, from Grey Advertising from Universal Music. I've got a lot of industry friends out there. And they are very generous. And I do incredible panels that our school has never seen before. They don't get that quality of talent. So for the arts communications community, especially, this is really good stuff. So anyway, that's kind of how it transitioned. And
Yeah. you know, the title of your podcast, Figure It Out, that's become my mantra. You and I share that a couple of weeks ago, we reconnected. Yeah.
yeah. And I learned in life, you know, crap happens everyday.
(laughs)
It's good. Some of its bad. But what do you need to do at the end of the day, you got to Figure It Out! And that's what I do. So I'm very comfortable with change. I'm more aware of it today...
Mmm hmm.
...than I was younger. But now that I can reflect back, then I managed change, well then.
Yeah.
I just didn't have the mindset that I do today.
Right, right.
I tell my clients, students and the job search therapy clients, which mostly mid senior level executives, I tell them if the change is part of it, and how you manage that will determine your outcome if you let it manage you. You're toast.
Yep, that's the mindset. Right?
You have to manage it.
Yeah.
So it is mindset, that is the foundation of my coaching, whether it's a student, freshman, sophomore, junior, senior, doesn't matter or a 45-year-old executive...
Mmm hmm.
Some point you've got to build off something. So what's the foundation, that's what you build off in most things. So that's where I try and get their head in a better space. So that's the story of Jimmy Levin.
Fantastic! And I, I love to you know, you're you're working with a full spectrum of people from, you know, college-university level, all the way up to executive level. And, you know, in today, with working with, and working with a variety of clients, right? People, businesses, we've seen nowadays, too, that ageism is is real, whether, you know, and it's on both ends of the
spectrum. So it's whether you're too young with not enough experience, or you're too old, require a larger salary, benefits and too much experience and I'm using air quotes here, you know, with this, what is your best advice for...I don't want to say young and old because I hate those terms. But, you know, how do we help people that are struggling to land a job on either end of the spectrum right now?
Right, so we'll say those with less experience versus a lot of experience be like that
Perfet. I like that.
I'm older than dirt. I've been around a long time. And I do manage a lot of more senior level clients in transition.
Yeah.
Whether their choice to leave or they were aged-out. You know, when I was recruiting back in the day with you, I would often send a really senior level resume or client, and they would call back and say Jimmy, nice resume, but probably overqualified. And that is their valid way of saying to...
Yup.
I would push them. And I would challenge them a little bit. And I would tell them, you know, so what does that really mean? This guy's coming in with what I call the LLC, the low learning curve, and he will pick up quickly, he will make you look good. You know, some of them are genuinely threatened by someone thinking, Okay, this guy could really take my job, I get that. But, you know, not to give someone a try as a mistake. So I often was able to get at least an interview for some of these
senior level people. And oftentimes, they got hired, but I have to push. So overqualified is a nonsense term, almost always.
Yeah.
So for young, you know, there are those sort of four career steps of career development, there's the exploring, there's the established, mid and senior level. And then there's what they call the climb, but I never used that word, I always say, that's the reboot, you know, because if you're going to retire, you're still going to move on, you're moving forward somehow, some way. So I don't
like to say decline. But for young people, my focus is on the explore and discover, because that's what explorers did, and still do - they discover! So explore your interests, look at job boards, look at the job descriptions, what are the required criteria they have? What skill sets do you need? Entry level, by definition is almost always 1-3 years. So coming out of college, if you've had good internships and so on, you might be able to get away
with it. But entry level is a very misleading term,
Absolutely.
Because most students think, oh, entry level, I'm graduating - I'm entry level. But there's still certain requirements there. You need to learn what those are.
Mmm hmm.
And then I tell you know, the younger people, whatever your story is, you got to embrace it and tell it because you can't make stuff up.
Right.
And there's, I feel for everybody - an opportunity.
Yeah.
So shoot for your alias, why would you not? And if for any reason, you find you're not getting it, we can reassess how you're approaching it. Maybe there's something wrong. I like sports. So I use the analogy when the game plan is not working, the first thing the coach does is change the game plan. So they change the play, they change the lineup. So we look, we know how are you targeting? Maybe the resume is not quite the right way. You know, where are the intersection
points, stuff like that. But to me, it begins with explore, discover and learn. And then of course, the networking.
Yeah. Networking is the secret sauce for any age, or any level. When you I think statistically, it's about 80% of the job secure today, it's your networking. So you know, you have family and
So that's kind of how I work with the younger friends, start there, you know, childhood friends, their parents, they professionals, what do they do? Everybody knows somebody? audience. The more experienced senior level people. I get their head in a good space that they feel better about - Not I'm too old. But yeah, you know what, I'm an experienced guy!
Yeah.
So I want them to do that. And experience does not have to represent old, it represents experience, it represents being qualified. And it does bring you in with that low learning curve. I think that's an important selling feature for these guys. There's depth, there's substance to these people, and not to recognize it, if you're on the hiring side, not to give this person a chance, at least talk to him. Well, you know, he's 61. So what am I going to get 2-3-4
years? Well, if that's what you get, you're gonna get 2-3-4 great years,
Yeah!
But these people are committed, they're in for the long haul. Well, you know, he should be making $185,000 and we only have $150. When the market improves, he'll move on. He's 61 years old, he's not moving anywhere.
Right!
This is gonna be his last stop. He wants a job. He'll be very happy at $150 Not the $185. You know, in that rare chance, something would come along, okay, there's a slight risk of flight risk, if you will. But for the most part, the more senior people they want to work, they've got some you provide an offer, and they're going to stay. You know, I was in my 60's when I got the offer to come in at Stony Brook as a full-time career coach, my consulting business was comfortable.
Yeah.
But they started with a consulting gig of two days a week. So that was a good balance. I had job search therapy three, two days a week for Stony Brook. But within not quite two months, they got a budget approval and they offered me a full-time job. So now I'm 64. And I'm thinking to myself, Jimmy, consulting is good, but you're never gonna get this kind of an opportunity again, at your age. I jumped and it was the best thing I ever did. For me and truthfully for the university.
Yeah.
I've really established myself very well there. I've made a lot of friends, I chose to reach out to faculty right away. Because if you get their buy-in, they will help promote the Career Center.
Absolutely.
And so so that was sort of how it went. So my experience was recognized by the director of the career center. Kudos to her. She didn't really give a hoot that I was 63-4 years old.
Right.
And I brought it up. She said, No, you know, this is not the issue for me at all. The issue is bringing someone in who is good at what they do. I think you'll fill that spot.
Yeah. Well, so.
So I use me as an example, when I work with more senior level people, I want them to understand, it's not impossible. It might be harder work. But if you're in, then you're in and my tagline, if you will, I tell clients I'm their GPS, I am there ways in their Google Map, and you can program me and I will navigate you there.
(laughs)
But they have to drive. I don't chase my clients, you know, hey, how you doing? What's the status? Oh, with rare exception,
Yeah.
I put it out there. This is what we need to do WE not you WE need to do. So I partner with them?
Yes!
And you know, I give them accountability. But I don't call them in a week, it's Hey, do you do that? That's up to them, they have to drive. So and if you don't have a destination, you can't program the GPS. So the "I don't know" is not acceptable? "I'll find out" is hopeful. And that's where I want them to be. So yeah, a lot of it is younger or not, is mindset.
Yeah, yeah. Definitely mindset. And it's just being able to help people shift that at times, right? Whether it's, you know, not experienced enough, or, just beginning or this over a lot of experience, because I think, what I what I really liked, too, that you've said, this low learning curve, I mean, coming in to that, and being able to show a company, what you've got, and you know, just going back to your story, as a photographer, right, and having the blinders
on of being a photographer. And that's what you're doing, and then having to pivot. And it's almost like you were forced to take those blinders off to realize, oh, I I've done budgeting, I've done this, I've done that. So there's so much more that you actually came to the table with to then figure out what your next steps may be. And taking those chances and the networking and throwing all the dots out there, right? I'm all about let's throw the dots out. Let's not worry about what the
final picture will be. Once we start connecting the dots. It's just keep putting the dots out there because eventually, the dots will start to connect.
Exactly.
And you know, you it's the process, it's going through all of that, that you become successful.
You become successful, if you're committed to yourself, and that's what the key is you're investing in yourself when it's a career choice.
Yup!
And you can pick the wrong choice at one point in time - So what? You'll pivot out and you'll move on.
Yeah.
It's always about moving forward. What's next? The next dot to connect to one that straight path one dot to the next. God bless you. Now, you're all set. Your easy if you got is this, you're all set. It's all easy.
(laughs)
But then there's everybody else.
Yeah.
You know, so for me, the first career, I knew what I wanted to do. Second career, I really was in the I don't know category, And inwardly, I knew well that doesn't help. So
Yeah. let's go find out. And that's why I have a sign in my office that says "Never say I don't know, always say I'll find out." It's important to understand that, you know, for someone like me and more senior level people, it's almost always a bit more organic. Mmm hmm.
Dots are not a straight line. It's a bit of a zig zag. But, you know, three, 2 + 2 = 4,so is 4 + 3 - 1 - find your 4 doesn't matter how you get there, you get there.
Yeah.
But I will say you know, the throwing the dots out that's a good analogy. But I have a thing about is that old expression, if you toss enough crap against the wall, something will stick. You can find work that way, but it's not always the best use of time.
Yeah.
So quite the same as the dots because that makes sense. You've got to see what's out there. What opportunities to connect them.
Yeah!
Once you kind of pick and choose the destination. I don't want people just throwing that crap against the wall, I want them to be selective about what they throw against the wall. So when it sticks, it's meaningful.
Yeah. I love that.
And that doesn't matter if you're right out of college, or you're 45, 50 or 60.
Yup!
You know, I just, I'm happy to say share this story, obviously no names, but I'm working with a client who is 65. He was aged-out was clearly that's what it was a reorg-ed. But he was out. And it was strictly because of age. Everyone knows it. They gave him a relatively good severance, but he wants to work. So through a friend he got to me, and I'm happy to tell you it took about five months, but he's got a fabulous offer. He starts next next Monday at Citibank.
That's fantastic.
So you know, it's totally doable. And if you come in and say, Well, boy, I'm Oh, this is not going to work, well, then you're already starting well, behind.
Yup, the negative mindset is not going to get you forward. You need that positive mindset and, you know, changing the lenses that you're looking through. Right?
Exactly right. And change is good or bad, disruptive.
(laughs)
We deal with every day, you know, I mean, you're a young mom, so you know what kids how they completely disrupt and change your life.
(laughs)
But I'm watching you now with the big grin. So we know there's good, that's a great change, but you have to acclimate find that new rhythm, you know, a bad change, you lose your job that's completely disruptive.
Yep.
At the end of the day, you got to Figure It Out!
Exactly. Now, what I'm going to take that with that, and I love these terms, so the figured out and re-careering that you use on your website, let's kind of explain these terms to our audience.
Well, Figure It Out, is in my mind, which I shared with you last time we spoke and you got a kick out of it. But that is CFS = Common Frigging Sense.
Yes (laughs).
It really is. It's, you know, when you're stuck in your own quicksand. It's really hard to just pull out and be rational, because it's your misery. And it's overwhelming sometimes. So that's what it is. That's all you see. You've got to sort of pull yourself out of that quicksand and start to give some real thought to what's going on in your life, whether it's personal, professional, doesn't matter.
Right.
Whatever's happening, you got to Figure It Out. You just do and I think a lot of it is common sense. Okay, this is where I am. The reason I'm here is because...I'm frazzled because I have a new baby.
Yeah...
Okay, well, that baby's not going anywhere. I wanted that baby. So I gotta figure out how to get my new schedule in place.
Yeah.
So that baby's the priority that baby's taken care of. And when time permits, I will deal with my own stuff, whether it's work, or whatever it is.
Yeah.
You start to pull back, reassess where you are, what's working, what's not working, what's ailing, what's failing, what are the pain points, you identify them. Now, not everybody can do that on their own. Identify their psychologists and therapists, career coaches, because we can be objective about your quicksand. And my job is to help you reassess, I ask a lot of questions I'll don't do it be a pain in the neck, I do it because the more I know, the more I can help.
Mmm hmm.
So I don't want them to see me as a teacher, faculty or parent.
Right.
I want them to see me as Jimmy, the career coach. And most of the time when you establish that rapport, they'll share information that helps get them out of that quicksand. So they can move forward. And it's always about moving forward. That's what the fulfillment in life is. Moving backwards, unless it's a strategic plan to take that one step back to advance TO that makes sense. But beyond that, you want to keep moving forward, you want to be
going vertical. So you know, the idea of Figure It Out, that's what I did instinctively in my world, I figured it out. And then I learned Oh, I figured it out. And that's really sort of my mantra in life. And I use that term ad nauseam all the time that I'm working with a student you know, first, second year student or 45-50 year old executive.
Yeah.
This is I get it, and WE will work together and YOU will figure it out. So that's that and then the Re-careering, you know, I mean, I took the big step back when I realized okay, you can't do photography anymore.
Yeah.
The first couple of months for rough car. I won't lie to you. I was in a bad place. Why would I not be?
Right.
My career ended and I was really a sole proprietor. So if I'm not taking pictures, I'm not making money.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I don't have I didn't have you know, a severance package.
Right.
Oh, you know, yeah, I had money in the bank, whatever. I had something to keep me going but I didn't have have, you know, enough to say, oh, you know what I'm going to retire. And I wanted to stay busy and work anyway.
Yeah.
So, you know, I took the giant step backwards and started to reassess, and in two months, and that's when I had the, that sort of epiphany moment of, okay, you know what, you can't do this anymore. And it might, it might just be cool to do something else. So that's when I started to deal with the word "next," you know, what's next and as become my favorite four-letter-word, what's next?
So I did the exploratory. I did the research, I did the networking, and slowly but surely, I was able to re-career. And it wasn't a straight hard line, one dot to the accent, you know, next, it was really an organic process.
Yeah.
But I stuck with it. Because I invested in me, I just felt I knew I had something to do - something to give, just didn't identify it yet. And there slowly but surely as I connected those dots you spoke of, here I am. So for me, it was re-careering was an amazing learning experience. It was difficult. I know, I can talk about it all day. And that sounds so easy. It's not, it's difficult. It's hard work. It's tedious. You have to initiate every conversation when you're
networking. and you're the one that's in need. You know, they're not calling you the Hey, Jimmy, I got something for you, you know, how you doing? You have to initiate everything. And then you have to determine even if it's somebody you know, well, where's the threshold of being proactive and being a pain in the neck?
Yeah.
You know, there's that fine line. And it's not definitive for everybody. I develop my three strike rule, I'll reach out to someone three times, I don't get a response - They're off the list. If they were to reach out to me at some point, geeze Jimmy, I'm really sorry. I'll reboot that conversation. But if they don't, they're off my list. And my attitude was, you know what, one less holiday card I have to set at the end of the year.
(laughs)
And that's the way it is. So again, it's figuring things out, you do it, you explore, you discover, you research, you talk to people what's working, you've got to take note of that, again, I refer to the journal I kept, I logged everything, tie everything. And to this day, I still don't know why I did it. But it has become a resource or me, that became my business model.
Yeah.
So you know, when I reached out to someone, I made a note of the date, the content of the conversation, is there a follow up, you know, give me a shout in two weeks, I made a note on my calendar, call, so and so you know, this date, refer to your notes, and so on. So I can look at my notes before I reached out. So I could pick up right where I left off. I tried to keep it as fluid as possible. And that's what I want my clients to do. And this
doesn't work for everybody. You know, my business model works for many if it doesn't work for some, I'm okay with that. I'm never offended by it. You know, but I want people to be the brands, the product, the service. And if you're branding yourself, you're marketing yourself. And marketing, anyone who knows creative services is based on the data.
Yeah.
Search, learn about your market, how you approach it, learn the the industry fluency, how to present yourself in their world, those things separate you. And again, I instinctively did this for me. And now I do it for others. But it's again, starts with the mind set. If you want to say it's a bad day, it's a bad day. Don't do that, it's a good day. It's an OK day, it's a better way to
start the day. So the figuring out the idea of pushing forward, utilizing all your resources, identify and utilize your resources. And then you reboot, you just do re-careering is rebooting, you know, when your computer freaks out on you and you talk to your tech people.
(laughs)
First thing. First thing is either they suggested or asked you did you reboot?
Yeah (laughs).
No, reboot. And almost always it fixes whatever it was.
Yeah.
So I want my my clients to reboot.
I love that.
You know, if this is where their head is, if it's the transition from university, to a job, it's a reboot, you're taking the step back reassessing who you are, what do you want to do? Why do you want to do it? What's the value bring? And there are questions for those answers.
Yeah.
And if I have a client who says, geez, I don't know. I tell them, Go for it.
I hear that (laughs).
That's the foundation I think of that piece for me.
Love it. I really love it. And, you know, your work now to at with higher education is just phenomenal to hear that there's that help out there. I was just talking to a young person the other day, that wants to get an internship. And I said, Well, what about your career services at you're current school and they're like, Yeah, I went there and nobody really gave me the time of day. And they had nothing. And I was just like, that's terrible to
hear. So for me, knowing that there are people like you out there, and there is this help and support, it's huge. It's huge. And you know, what I do have - I've got a two part question here. First, you know, Gen Z is known for supporting diversity, while expecting immediate results, as well as a fair work-life balance. So right now, what would your best piece of advice to be to the job-seeking Gen Z-ers?
So, and look, data supports everything you're saying?
Yeah (laughs).
For me, and I am knee deep in that community, most of the time, so I am well aware of and there, thank goodness, there are always exceptions to every rule, there are definitely some of the Z's out there that get it. You know, and they understand that you got to work hard to get wherever you're going to go. And the ones that expect the instant gratification, you know, and I have students who get pissed off that, hey, you know, I interviewed with this guy and
they rejected me. So, are you sending your resumes to other places? No, I wanted this job.
Right? (laughs)
Well, I get that. But you know, you don't have a short thing ever until it's a sure thing. So why would you not apply to 20 things, 10 things, whatever,5 things. And they're annoying. They're genuinely annoyed that they didn't get it. And you know, if that I call it the Trophy Generation, you know, my kids who were 30 and 26, I coached every sport and I used to freak out at the award dinners, because everybody got a trophy. And I questioned it. And I was on the board of our little
league. And I even brought it up. I said, but they didn't win.
Right?
Shouldn't the message be you earn it, you work hard, you earn it, and you get fair play, and you get a reward? You know, well, everybody's a winner.
Right (laughs).
So I understand that I do, but I don't. So I just think that was part of how many of these young people were brought up. I'm not blaming anybody it is it was a cultural thing.
Mmm Hmm.
And so it kind of makes sense. But I tell them all, first of all, I have a thing that work life balance. To me, it's life balance. Because work is part of our lives.
Mmm hmm.
We actually spend more time working than we do living. When you put sleep in that number in that formula, we really are working more than anything else. So I want people to have a different spin on life balance, I just think, incorporate that in and make it part of your life and make it enjoyable as best you can. You know, those people who take the job they don't love. They make peace with - I got a good salary, I got good benefits and my personal life is in good shape. I can take two vacations
a year, whatever it is. So they make peace with that. And I think that's cool. I really do. It works for them.
Mmm hmm.
You do it, you're happy. So for the Gen Z's out there, you know, don't just rely on what you learned from mom and dad and your friends moms and dad that everything is easy. It's not and if you think about the most successful people in the world, whether it's a Jeff Bezos, or Elon Musk, who has now big in the news, any one of these guys, whether it's someone that famous and well known, or just that really well known executive who lives in your neighborhood that's doing really well.
Yeah.
You can talk to them. And they will tell you don't ever complain about working hard, because nobody works easy.
Yep.
And that's to me is what epitomizes the message that the Gen Z's need to understand. It doesn't come easy. It's work to get work. But if you commit to it in your own way, you make it happen. And you see, and you're not going to go from that entry level spot to the mid-level spot, automatically. You have to earn that nobody deserves anything good or bad.
Nobody deserves anything. You know, if you behave like a bonehead, you'd be you deserve to be treated, or you earn the right to be treated like a bonehead.
Right! (laughs)
You do a great job at work, then you've earned the respect and the recognition of your peers and the ones above you and their the ones that are going to be saying, You know what? She's got fire in the belly. I think it's time to elevate her. But you have to earn that right. No different than networking, which is a very important piece of finding jobs. You can't just LinkedIn with me and I accept that we have a relationship.
Right.
Not quite that simple.
You need to find that connection.
Yeah, little dialog will connection and earn the trust for me. And then we have a relationship, and now I'm willing to help you. You know, it's one thing to reach out to family
Yeah. that's different. But you know, when it's an external resource, you know, you've got to really be patient with that. And I have students, the Gen z's, who will...well, I reached out to this guy, and like, he never responded, when did you reach out to him? Well, this morning, this GUY has got a big job. He's managing a department, he's got eight people under him, and whatever he's managing up, he's managing down. Email is the last thing he does during the day. Yep.
Even though he may check on his phone. He's gonna deal with priorities first. Give him a couple of days. If he doesn't respond,
Yeah. we'll talk about how to follow up. But you know, this is the stuff that I get from the Gen Z's. I let them know that it takes time curate it, be patient. It'll happen. And if it doesn't happen, you reboot the conversation or try to and if it works, awesome. If it doesn't - I this is my rule, three strikes. You pick and choose how many strikes you want. But be aware, you don't want to overstep that line. You know, so these are busy people, you know, you just got to be cognizant of that.
Yeah.
But this is the way I lay it out for them. I do the best I can to. I hate the term dumb it down. I think it's offensive, but I try to minimize, you know, the rules that are out there. But there are rules. In everything we do. There are rules of engagement, can we break and bend them? Absolutely, you may pay a price for it, there's a risk. But sometimes people see the breaking and the bending of the rule as - Wow. This one's got drive, there's something here.
So it can work for you. And there's no one size fits all answer to well, how do you know that?
Right?
That's why you get to know people along the way, or you research the company. And if you're lucky enough to maybe reach out to someone who currently works there. You know, if you're an intern, as a student, if you can find a previous intern, find out what the culture was like. But you know, what was that environment? Like? Was it a good place to be? You know, is it what I think it is? A lot of students target company X, and they land there.
And they come to me and say, This is the worst place I've ever experienced.
Yeah (laughs).
Alright, so that's the wake up call is, you know, you're not going to pursue them professionally. But you know, what you committed finish the internship. There's still a lot to learn.
Yeah - always.
Yeah, the external noise process, protocol, procedure. You're meeting people, you're developing a network. That's the takeaway. So if it's toxic, and it's really bad, yes, you got to get out. But if it's tolerable - stay, it's all your resume. You put the time in, you got more experience. So this is how I try to talk to the Gen Z.
I love it. I love it, Jimmy. Now, I know we're up on time here. So I want to ask, I want to be mindful. But I've got this one last question. And then I'm really excited for you to share your Tp5 Tips. But um, if you could go back and give advice to the college YOU, what would you say?
I would if I could go back and give advice. If it's -nif I know what I know now, then it would be an easier and is that the question? Okay, so knowing what I know now going back in time, I would talk about - be a better student. I was not a student. I just wasn't, my parents didn't really foster education. They were young when they got married. It just wasn't something they you know, did you do your homework? Yes. Okay. I didn't do my homework. Talk about having a much better perspective on the
(laughs) value of education. Cuz I really, you know, I got through school, literally just got through - college, I did well, because I went to a university that was alternative. It was self motivating. And that was me. So I would talk about me in terms of patience. Do the exploratory so you can discover and push hard commit to yourself, push hard for whatever it is you want to do. Love that.
Because no one's gonna really push you. And when mom and dad push you when you're young, you resent it, and you resist it.
Mmm hmm.
So you got to listen to yourself, or find that mentor in life.
Yeah.
They're out there could be a faculty. It could be a friend. It could be a teaching assistant, whatever. But if you can hook can do some someone out there that, you know, objectively could help you along the way. It's a great resource. So I think that would probably be what I would tell.
I love that. And I, you know, that just that, in itself is something that I would want my nine year old to hear. Because, you know, it is it's just so important to do that for yourself. And, you know, I guess I just I get the warm and fuzzies from that, because I feel like, it's almost the same thing that I'd want to say to myself, you know, many years ago as well, and being able to now put this out there to the audience. I love this and I value it. And I appreciate it.
And I am so grateful for you sharing this with us.
Thanks. You know, it's, again, we talked earlier about you know, when you're the analogy I use when you're in your own quicksand, it's hard sometimes to be objective. So you know, again, knowing what I know, now going back in time, it would be much easier to, you know, kind of add clarity to things.
Right (laughs).
You know, it comes down to again, common sense a lot of it and figuring it out.
Perfect.
It just is.
So let's to wrap this up. Jimmy, tell, tell us, give us your Top5 tips to Figuring It Out.
All right. So fortunately, you gave me a heads up on this. So I was able to give it some thought because I'm not sure how I would have been able to answer it on the spot.
Right? (laughs)
I came up with this. There's a beginning and an end. 1. So breathe. Breathing is good. It's essential. 2. Assess. 3. Common Sense. Use your common sense. So it's breathe. Assess. Common sense. 4. Exhale. That's the other part of the breathe. 5. And be be yourself be genuine.
Yes!
Because honest almost always the best policy and the more you try to be what you're not, the more you're going to mess it up. So I think that's my five.
Perfect, I love all of these. Breathe. Assess. Common Sense. Exhale. Be yourself be genuine. And I love it. I love that. And I am so, so happy that we were able to spend some time together today.
Thank you. This was fun. I appreciate you asking me. I hope there's value in this for somebody out there. And thanks, appreciate it.
Excellent. Thank you so much, Jimmy.
My pleasure.
We are DefinedTalent coming to you at Top5. Make it a great day.