Hey guys, welcome back to Top5 brought to you by DefinedTalent. We are a results-driven service working with clients to connect them with quality talent as well as working to make an impact within the recruiting industry. We talk straight about today's professional world with real world professionals, experts in recruitment job seekers and business owners alike. Have a question for us? Send it in and you might spur our next conversation. I'm Tara Thurber, Director of Talent Innovation
here at DefinedTalent. Joining me is our very own Talent Partner Ellie Bright and special guest Catherine Tsavalas Market Leader for the New York City metro area from Tech Elevator. Today, we're going to discuss different ways to beat impostor syndrome. Hey, ladies, how are you today?
Hey, Tara, and Ellie, it's so nice to meet to be here. And thank you for having me.
Absolutely.
Hello, hello!
So Catherine, let's just kick this off a little bit. And why don't you give the audience just a little - a brief background about yourself?
Yeah, of course. So I have been working with entrepreneurs and startup founders for almost 10 years now. Much of that work on paper, you know, was a lot of tactical moves, how to market your company, how to really get started, hire your first employee, how to operationally scale. But on, you know, off of my resume, really what that looked like, was a lot of founder therapy, a lot of the kind of emotional/mental toll that it takes to be a founder
and an entrepreneur. So I have a lot of experience coaching hundreds of founders and entrepreneurs. Most recently, I've transitioned to a new role, which we just mentioned, at Tech Elevator. I'm a Market Leader for our New York City metro area where I work with hiring partners and community groups to connect our students with jobs and opportunities after they graduate from our coding boot camp. Which also is interestingly enough, where a lot of people tend to have
impostor syndrome. Because it's a lot of career changers, a lot of people in tech. It's just an intimidating environment, and especially if you had no experience working in tech before. So it's funny that kind of I've shifted my career, but this is a common thread throughout.
Awesome, we're so happy to have you. And you know, just to kind of branch off of that. What is impostor syndrome?
Yes. For us to clarify. So many of us feel I probably have felt this, but it is the feeling that you know, I am a fraud, and everyone is going to find out. It's when you feel like you're in your career, your life. And that despite your accomplishments, your successes, you feel that you actually don't belong where you are, and that you actually do not deserve the things that you have in your
career and life. It's kind of the feeling that you've managed to scam a whole bunch of people into thinking that you can do this.
Yeah.
Or that you deserve something, but any
(laughs)
Sometimes the way it ends up manifesting minute now they're gonna, you know, come around the corner and find out that it's all fake, and that they've got you they figured it out. So this is kind of a cognitive distortion. You is that people will downplay their abilities, their know, we see a lot in different people. accomplishments, and it can end up holding you back. You kind of can get into this thought pattern of thinking anybody can
do what I've done. Nothing I've done a special I don't even necessarily deserve to be here. Sometimes those distortions or unrealistic expectations, tie a lot to competence. It's this unrealistic expectation of maybe what being competent actually means.
That's crazy. I know, I've definitely felt impostor syndrome within my career within my life. Ellie, have you ever felt that way, too?
I definitely feel that and I was just thinking that, you know, I've been saying a lot about how like Millennial and Gen Z culture was everybody was given a ribbon or a trophy. And so, you know, maybe that's something that my generation does specifically is like, well, if everybody's given a trophy, then how am I, you know, how am I special? And like, am I good at this? Or was I just given this and feeling that kind of rut? So it's definitely interesting to talk about this.
Definitely. And, you know, in a lot of our research that we've saw, there's five types of imposter syndrome. Catherine, I'd love for you to walk us through these types and maybe share some examples we can relate to.
Yeah, absolutely. And some of them tie in to exactly what Ellie just said. Also, as a fellow millennial, I think that's pretty common in our generation. So there's five types that have been popularized by Dr. Valerie Young. So she has the Imposter Syndrome Institute of Beliefs. She even owns the URL impostersyndrome.com. She has done research with hundreds of 1,000s of people from a wide variety of occupations all at different phases of their careers. And she came up with
these five. And so I'd be curious to know like which ones you relate to. I mean, this is the reason I also am so into talking about this is that I frequently have felt imposter syndrome. I was kind of a late bloomer in my career, and I felt like I've always had to catch up. So this is something that's also really personally important to me. One of the first ones that I actually see a lot in entrepreneurs, and in early career, folks is the
perfectionist. So I think we all know what it means to have perfectionist tendencies. But the idea is that one minor flaw in an otherwise amazing performance, or you get a 99, out of 100 equals failure, it's kind of this all or nothing thinking that you have to be 100% all the time, perfect. Usually this person is focused on how something is done, how the work is conducted, and how
it turns out. So again, I see people who are new entrepreneurs, you know, they feel like they need to get everything right, immediately. People who are early in their career, they might also feel that way, you know, they might be intimidated by what they see their colleagues or people above them going in that they feel like there's no room to make
mistakes. So something I tend to tell people who fall into this category is, while it's hard to kind of get your head around, sometimes done is better than perfect, especially when you're an entrepreneur because the market and your competitors will move faster than you can even think so trying to remember done can be better than perfect.
Love that love that. I feel like I'm that. But now let's go into some other ones. Because I feel like I'm gonna be a little, a little bit of all of these (laughs).
Right, right. That's how I felt too. So the next person is the expert. I actually see this a lot in my current role with people who are career changers, they're learning how to be a coder, you know, they might not have any technical background. They're kind of the knowledge version of the perfectionist, they expect to know everything. And even if they don't know something that is when it brings failure and
shame. So even a minor lack of knowledge in something so maybe when you're coding, not knowing how to do something, how to scale something, how to deploy something, just brings a lot of failure and shame and feeling that you can't do this. This person is primarily concerned with the what, or how much you know, or can do. So that's kind of what the expert is like.
Wow, I can see that too, coming out of like a bootcamp or even just maybe graduating too with a specific targeted degree to come out of a college or a university feeling that way.
Yeah, absolutely. I think when you see people, there's a lot of different ways to become a coder. And I think when you see people who maybe have more education than you, have taken a different path, it can all be very intimidating. And you might question you know, whether that's whether you belong.
Wow. All right. Now, the next one that I kind of like is Superwoman/Superman, is that one of them? Am I right?
Yes, that is the super human. So this is very familiar to entrepreneurs, and also happens to be very common in women who typically society has told that you need to be responsible for all the items so that the person that you know, if they fall short in any of their roles as a human, whether that's as a parent, a partner, a caregiver, a homemaker, a friend, a volunteer, a community member, it that invokes shame, they should feel that they should be able to handle everything, all the time,
perfectly, easily. It should be great, it should be fun, shiny, perfect, new. So we see this a lot like I said, with particularly in women who have those societal expectations as well as entrepreneurs.
That sounds familiar (laughs).
(laughs) I like to that you use the word 'superhuman,' that's um, it's definitely you know, all inclusive to me and when thinking about it's so true, I mean, and the shame that you can feel from that if that's the type of imposter that you're kind of holding within right?
Right and it's like it's it's an impossible thing when you know, the superhuman sees competence based on how many roles you can juggle an excel in and and as human beings are literally as a limit, and we can't all be perfect at everything and so it's a hard one, I think, especially if, as you start to build all the different pieces Definitely, definitely - you know, even, it just kind of of your life outside of your
career. So the next one that I see a lot and founders a lot I think I see this one the most is the soloist. So this is the person that, again, it's very similar to the superhuman, except they feel that they should be able to do it all on their own. And the shame and the failure comes from needing help, seeking coaching, seeking tutoring. So I think a lot of founders, you know, this also ties in with a perfectionist, it's or somebody who feels like they need to be the expert.
Asking for help is not a sign of failure. But it ties into the way that some people experience impostor syndrome, you know, they care about who completes the task, they want to be able to do it all, they don't want to ask for help, especially with solo founders, I find that that's very, very common. And, you know, it's hard to ask for
help. And it's but it's something that's critical, you know, to growth triggered something to not only in entrepreneurs, young adults going out there, but I feel like I can see a lot of these different imposters come out in children as they're growing and becoming their own human, right?
Not necessarily a superhuman, but I'm, you know, having two kids myself and trying to navigate the waters as they're growing and learning, I see a little bit of all of these little imposters that shine light on my little humans. Yeah, I think that ties into what Ellie was saying, too, about, you know, at least in our generation, the, the blue
ribbons for everybody. It's interesting how those things can really affect - I mean, it's, this is something that I think you know, from the very beginning of life, you start to have these little imprints that may lead to impostor syndrome down the line.
Yeah, absolutely.
So the last one here, that has kind of been categorized is the natural genius. So this is for all of the gifted and talented kids out there. These are people who feel that if they are not getting something easily if they're struggling to master a subject or a skill, like if you just can't absolutely knock out a masterpiece every time then that equals failure, which again evokes that shame. So this is the person that cares about how and when something is
accomplished. But for you, competence is measured in terms of ease and speed. So this is the one that when I graduated high school, I didn't you know, I was a person in high school who didn't necessarily have to study a lot, I did really well. And then I went to college, my first year, first of all, I went to Penn State, big party school, middle of nowhere.
(laughs)
No offense to anyone who went to Penn State. And that was the first time I really had to try at school.
Yeah.
And I wasn't, I couldn't do it. I couldn't handle the pressure. I couldn't handle the shame. The second that I didn't get an A on a test it was this downward spiral. And so this is a real, this is one that I think, can manifest in a lot of different ways, too.
Yeah. Wow. It's crazy. All of these are so much a part of our daily life, I feel and as we're working in our profession and doing the most that we possibly can. It's kind of you know, a lot of people can get burnt out. And you know, my next question is, is burnout, a type of imposter syndrome?
I love this question. So just for everybody's clarification, burnout is when you are physically, mentally, emotionally exhausted, you feel like your cup has totally run dry. You're trying to accomplish things, but you just feel it on a surface level that you can't necessarily dive deep into things. So burnout is actually a coping mechanism.
Wow.
So there are several coping mechanisms when we talk about impostor syndrome, that are probably also going to look very familiar. So one is being a workaholic. And so that is typical in somebody who experiences burnout. I'll talk a little bit about kind of how to address that. But some of the other coping mechanisms that we see might be flying under the radar, you know, you don't feel like you're successful so you don't want to draw attention to
yourself. So you might not speak up, you might not go for promotions, procrastination, that is my number one folly, procrastination.
(laughs)
But that it's also you know, you have this anxiety or this kind of you have impostor syndrome, essentially, and you are afraid to get started because that might just further prove that you're an impostor. And then there's, you know, the self sabotage.
(laughs) Yes! Yup.
Which I think also ties into procrastination. You do things that aren't going to help you in the long run. And part of that is because you don't think maybe It might look like somebody just woke up that you deserve to be successful that you deserve to have what you have and this is all just kind of again, like you're waiting for the other shoe to drop, and it's gonna right itself. So those are some of the coping mechanisms. So I would say that burnout is usually a result of being a
workaholic. I think you know, when it comes to burnout and impostor syndrome, there are some things to keep in mind. One and had an amazing company or an amazing job. But the reality is is, you cannot be brilliant at everything, it is literally impossible, you cannot pour from an empty cup, also. So part of it took years and years and years and years of planning that it is reframing what that looks like. So celebrate the small successes and set realistic
goals. So we always talk about smart goals, Specific, Measurable, Actionable, Realistic, and Timely. If you think about the actual two of you never saw that you don't know about. And so there is a those actually achievable, I'm starting to actionable, achievable and realistic, both kind of tie into burnout, in terms of not being a workaholic, make sure that the goals that you're setting for yourself are not overwhelming, they're not, you know, they should be
exciting. And they should be stretch goals sometimes, but you don't want to have these big goals that push you to work way past your capacity. So make sure you're being realistic with that, whether it's with yourself or with a boss or with the people who report to you. I also think this one is one that I struggle with, be patient with
yourself and your success. I used to tell entrepreneurs that the secret to overnight success is five years of hard work in the background level where you have to take a step back, realize it's gonna take time, realize that mentally, physically, emotionally exhausting yourself for burnout is not a way to get it done. And that there are more actionable smaller steps for you to kind of battle that impostor syndrome accomplish what you need without burning yourself out.
And then having that feeling of success at the end, too. You know, I think everybody wants to feel that success feeling. And I think being able to utilize and change the mindset as you - you need to acknowledge right? You need to acknowledge where you're at in order to change and move through it. All, right?
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a huge part of it is, you know, one of my big suggestions is really, to go on a fact-finding mission, figure out what is actually happening and what you've actually succeeded in, go through, like, kind of break through those cognitive distortions that are telling you, you know, you haven't accomplished anything, and then celebrate those successes when you see that, even if it's, you know, you don't necessarily tell anybody if you're like this is a
small success, that's okay. You know, just use that to keep yourself going and to celebrate those things.
I love that.
I'm a little shocked, I don't think I realized that I had impostor syndrome until going through like three of those.
(laughs)
(laughs) (laughs)
But you know, again, there's so many aspects But the burnout thing is so interesting. I feel
(laughs) like, like you said in high school, and in college, I would of this. And I guess my question is, like, do you feel like procrastinate doing things because I thought, if I put them off till the last minute, and then I don't do well, then I can blame it on my procrastination as opposed to like, putting in the hard work doing well and then getting a bad grade back then I can't fall back on that excuse, if that makes sense. So that's really interesting. I don't think I ever I mean, I
think I'd put that together. But I didn't necessarily think of that as imposter syndrome. So it's very interesting to hear that and yeah, maybe this is something I should talk to my therapist about. somebody can be a mix of these different types of imposter syndrome? Or do you feel like
Great question!
Absolutely.
Kind of like your Myers Briggs? Do you get like a piece of one kind of thing?
Yeah, I think absolutely. And I think like maybe in different stages of life, your career. You know, some things are very similar. Like we look at the perfectionist and the expert, they're similar in their idea of perfection, but it's different what that looks like, you know, the perfectionist is, what they produce the expert is what they know and how much so I think absolutely, you can have
multiples of these. The other thing is that, you know, imposter syndrome is technically not a psychological or mental health condition. However, you know, a lot of mental health conditions like to be best friends with other mental health or non-mental health conditions.
So it's very common for it to be partnered with things like anxiety, depression, a lot of folks who identify as neurodiverse typically, you know, fall into these impostor syndrome thought patterns, and it's also something that's common among groups of people who, you know, might experience social stereotypes about their competence, their intelligence then they feel this pressure to represent this group, among maybe a world that doesn't look
like them. So that's why we also tend to see this in the tech world, because not necessarily very diverse, you might be, you know, sometimes the only woman in the room, the only person of color in the room. And so that can make you, you know, feel a lot of those imposter syndromes.
Yeah, it's interesting, I was thinking about that, too. Again, I'm, I'm somebody who has both anxiety and ADHD.
Same!
And, like I said, it's not necessarily that these imposter syndromes are a mental, you know, a mental health issue. But they, some of those symptoms, or some of those, I guess, things that go into that are similar ways that you perceive those tasks are the thing at hand. And so I think that is interesting, like procrastination, or not being able to celebrate the small tasks or complete those small tasks, because you see something as the big, you know, task at
the end of the tunnel. So it is interesting to kind of, again, be able to break those things down to say, here's how I can fight my imposter syndrome. And, you know, my potential anxiety by doing X, Y, and Z and feeling better about yourself?
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And, you know, it's, I know, for myself, I've experienced, I feel like all of these different imposters, sometimes I feel like I'm feeling them all at once. And sometimes it has been, maybe it's not necessarily all at once in my day to day, but it's, you know, the superhuman as a mom, and then the expert, or the perfectionist as, you know, an entrepreneur. And so I feel like it all kind of is on a, it's all balancing it all, at times for
myself. And I'm sure you know, it's the same for many people of all ages and all backgrounds depending on where they're at in their life, right? But how do you adjust your thinking to avoid the frame of thought? How can we kind of adjust or shift to not even avoid, but to divert or get through it?
Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. So I think this ties a lot into what we were just talking about with therapy. But I do think sometimes, imposter syndrome is tied with cognitive distortions, which if you've ever gone to a therapist to get trained in cognitive behavioral therapy, they will help you recognize some of these cognitive distortions, which are thought patterns that aren't necessarily based in reality or the truth of
what's going on. So for someone with impostor syndrome, that might look like filtering, so you're ignoring the positive and you're only focusing on the negative, that might look like catastrophizing. So you're expecting the worst case scenario, it's kind of like that they're coming around the corner to fire me any minute, because they know that I'm, this is just a huge scam that I've that I've been able to pull over everyone.
Jumping to conclusions, it's also a cognitive distortion that I think people with impostor syndrome tend to have. So that's when you are you only know what other people share with you. So that tends to be the highlight reel. So you will jump to conclusions about how successful everyone else is in their career or their life compared to you. Again, that's it's kind of it's again, like what they say about social media, you only see everybody's highlight reel,
you're not seeing REAL life. So you have to keep that perspective. And then I think, especially when maybe you're in a room with people who don't look like you, or you feel like you're in a career where you're not well represented and you feel kind of out of place. It's that emotional reasoning, which is another cognitive distortion, where, if I feel it, it must be
true. And I think that's something that those are all things that you know, the filtering, the catastrophizing, jumping to conclusions, emotional reasoning, I think they're all things that a trained therapist can help you identify and walk through. But it's also something that if you do some research online, you might be able to when you're feeling those extreme moments of impostor syndrome, recognize you know, I am catastrophizing.
Right now, I am thinking that, you know, if I let's take Ellie's example, if you know I procrastinate on this, and if I, if I don't do well on this, my whole career is going to explode and everything is going to go, you know, down the tubes, and I'm never going to be hired again. And everyone's gonna know
that I was terrible at this. So I'm just going to procrastinate and procrastinate and procrastinate so I think recognizing when those thoughts are coming up, especially if you have the means to see a therapist are extremely helpful. I also think it helps to know to adjust your frame of thought to know that imposter syndrome is extremely common. So even when they first were doing research on us, I believe it was back in the 70's. They first thought it was something that only affected
high achieving women. But since then it's proven to happen to people of all genders in all positions. But it's still up to 84% of people have identified as having imposter syndrome. So if you're in a room with people or you're, you're in a meeting, or you're presenting to people, there's a very good chance that a lot of other people in that room have experienced exactly
what you're thinking. You know, it with entrepreneurs we've seen, there have been some studies that suggest that you know, over 20% have that I'm going to be found out feeling for lack of knowledge, or ability, or they you know, about 20% also feel that their success is only due to luck. So, again, I think helping it helps to know that you're not alone in this a lot of people I mean, look at us on this call now. We're like, Yeah, actually, I also feel that way.
(laughs)
I think a lot of us, it helps to know that you're not alone.
Is there? Is there, are there sorry, go ahead. Ellie, were you gonna say something?
Yeah, I was just gonna say it's interesting that you mentioned when it was first kind of researched, it was mainly targeted towards women, not to be super feminist. But do you feel like that was because women were coming into the workplace, they weren't expected to be producing or kind of having as high output or high success rates? Like what why did they start with women in that research?
That's a great question. I have my theories.
I don't know if you have an answer to I was just kind of hypothesizing on like, Why? Why did they start there? It's very interesting.
So my, so this, the first study was, let me make sure I get her name, right. I have it here. So the first study was done by somebody named Pauline Clance. And so this was in the 70's. So we can imagine kind of what the mentality was of like this, you know, post-50's, where everybody was, you know, the women were at home and the men were working, and you know, war was good, and gave us prosperity and all of that kind of feeling.
(laughs)
And then we've kind of, you know, the 60s happened, and it was revolutionary. And then we started talking about equality more. And then I think in the 70s, you know, this is when, I think they started to think more about women in the workplace. And so, one might, one question might or answer to that might just be that the study was by women. But I do think that they probably, I think there's a part of where the workplace was
probably not. I mean, I know for a fact was not nearly as welcoming as it is today, not necessarily to women.
Right.
And so there might have been, you know, a lot of factors outside of of an employee's control that led to them having impostor syndrome, whether it's, you know, being passed up for promotions, or, you know, blatant sexism or whatever that may be. So those would be my theories on to why.
Yeah.
But I also thought it was interesting that as they've done more and more research, they're finding it equally in men, because I would have thought, you know, there's still things are still not 100% equal, also putting on my feminist hat. And so I would have thought that women would still experience impostor syndrome at a higher level. But according to the research of people who are smarter than me, they said it's equal. So.
(laughs)
(laughs) Because that was an interesting thing that I thought of when you had mentioned that. So yeah, interesting to hear your thoughts on that, too. Back to you, Tara.
So with all of this and just talking about all of the acknowledging of it, are there any do you have any mental health exercises, Catherine that, that can help train people out of these impostor syndromes? What are your suggestions?
Yeah, I think, yeah, there's a few. So the first I think, is identifying those cognitive distortions that we were talking about earlier, and kind of being reflective of how you're feeling in a moment. But some of my favorite kind of actual exercises to do. One is to first
visualize success. Visualize that you're extremely competent, you're you're excellent, you're just absolutely killing it at your job, in your life and whether or not you actually feel that just kind of pretending for a little bit can actually change the way that you think about how you are actually doing. Another big one that my therapist has told me about all the time, is
act first and think later. So behavior always follows feeling if you wait to feel like doing something or that you want to do something, you will be waiting forever. And usually when you do the thing that you have been waiting and sitting here ruminating and thinking and getting all anxious about - talking from experience - you won't actually do it, but once you do do it, you will feel a
lot better. So sometimes it's just a matter of I mean, I am a chronic over thinker, but stop thinking for a little bit and just act and that it's way easier said than done, but that's probably One of my favorite kind of tricks, especially in a moment where I'm feeling extreme imposter syndrome or extreme anxiety, it's just do it, you know, the feeling of wanting to do it will probably not come. And so you need to just kind of get it over now, it's way easier said than
done. And something that, you know, took me years to actually get around to still feeling comfortable doing it for myself. But I do think that you can start small with those types of actions.
I love it, I feel like there's so much that can come from it. So many different types of exercises to get through it. But I believe you like act before thinking because the action could then in return, give you the results that you're looking for, give you that feeling that you were looking for. So then the feeling it comes natural, then, and it kind of just puts you back into the flow that you were hoping to be in.
Yeah, exactly. I think an important thing there is to remember to start small, you know, don't start with something very overwhelming, but maybe it's like, me - I don't feel like loading the dishwasher right now. And I'm like, I'm just gonna do it, stop thinking about how I don't want to do it.
(laughs)
I'm never gonna ever in my life. Like, I want to load the dishwasher. But I like need to. And so it's like, if you start small in your life, kind of recognizing, again, those distortions or those waiting to feel like you want to do something moments, and you just start doing it, it'll become easier in practice.
Yeah.
And again, start small, start with low low stakes, start with something that nobody else even knows you're doing. I found that that has really helped me.
I also feel writing lists, bucket lists almost. And I don't mean like a big bucket list of what you want to do to accomplish in your life. But I'll bucket I'll kind of categorize in my mind all of the things that I want to do or have to do or get to do. And I do make this transition of oh, I HAVE to do this. I don't like saying that I like saying I GET to do this. Because that then that little word shift can change your mindset right out of
the gate, right. And then being able to write different lists, I've got a personal list, a family list, a work list, just because a lot of times I'll get so deep in my head. And that leads to more overwhelm that then leads to procrastination. And it's like this big huge snowball that starts to happen. And then it falls. And then I'm like, I don't even want to sit
down and write my lists. But then I noticed that once I do write them or get stuff out of my head and onto a whiteboard or onto a piece of paper, I then can feel my mindset shift, and be like, Okay, so let's tackle the top down, or let's tackle one at a time. So again, it's just being able to get it out of our heads, and get out of our brains and get it. Even if I write the list and put the list down and walk away. I still feel personally that I'm a lot lighter, mentally, physically,
emotionally. Did you guys does that work for any either of you guys at all?
Yes, again, the ADHD goes along with lists a lot, but I agree, like helps me feel like I've done something at the end of the day when I've checked off, you know, 10 of my 15 boxes, even if it's, you know, brush your teeth, make the bed like.
Right?
You know, call this person, you know, confirm this interview. Things like that. Easy to just say, Okay, I did that. I did good. I did my job today. I am successful.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. I think just getting it out of your head. Sometimes it's half the battle. And in a way, I like how you said it, like makes you lighter literally does feel like you know, it's not weighing - It's not one of the 100,000 million things in your head. If you can write something down. It's almost like you delegate it to that list. And you're like, okay, it doesn't have to be in my brain right now. But if I need it, oh, go it's kind of like unloading it.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, man. So just to kind of wrap up where we're at on this. Catherine, what are your Top5 Ways to Beat Imposter Syndrome?
Awesome. Okay, so first, we talked about how 84% of people have impostor syndrome, or have identified having it, find your community. Talk to people who have been in your shoes gone down the path you're going down and talk to them about how you're feeling now, again, easier said than done. But that will help you get out of your thought distortions, your shame cycles, especially if you feel like you're comparing yourself to others into the
successes of others. And you will start to see that a lot of successful people have some more thoughts. I actually found a list of famous people who have said that they have felt imposter syndrome. That includes people like Kate Winslet, Maya Angelou, Michelle Obama, Sonia Sotomayor, who has like one of the most exclusive jobs in the world and is a Supreme Court Justice, it's like, you know,
there's only so many of them. So you are in good company, and you also, you know, you can be successful with these feelings. And successful people do have these feelings. That's next one is fake it till you make it. So I actually hate when people say this, but I, part of the hate is that it works. So pretend that you are the person who deserves
to be where you are. And you will slowly start believing in yourself, it is proven that if you get into that mindset, start to banish those negative thoughts, visualize your success. And again, let your feelings follow your actions, not necessarily dictate your actions, you will start to actually feel more successful and possibly even BE more successful. So again, fake it till you make it a little bit. I especially tell that to you know, the students that it's an almost like a necessary evil at
this point. So the third one is my favorite one, it is go on fact finding mission. So help yourself differentiate facts from opinion, identify what is in your control and what isn't. So, for example, if you report to someone, clarify those expectations, make sure you have written KPIs. So you know that when you're meeting expectations, there's clear data that you're succeeding, flip that around if you have people that are reporting to you help
make expectations clear. But normalized talking about impostor syndrome, if you start identifying those moments, and then using, you know, small wins in order to celebrate, you'll help people push past the imposter syndrome, help them identify that, you know, they can do this, they they're able to do this and that the small successes are worth celebrating.
I love that.
I think along with those lines, you know, identify what you can and can't control. So, you know, for example, I've been telling my graduates lately that you know, you cannot control if a company is hiring right now, you cannot control if there are layoffs, or if they have open level/entry level developer roles. What you can control is your output, your networking, your commitment to your side project, and the curriculum, your resume, your LinkedIn, your applications, working with me all those
things. Alright, this one, actually, I said the last one was my favorite, but this one's actually my favorite.
(laughs)
Document how awesome you are. Okay, this is gonna sound kind of strange, you do not need to tell anybody that you're doing this, you can keep a private note in your iPhone or a Google Doc or take
screenshots. But when somebody says something nice about you, when people praise your work, when you've hit KPIs out of the park, keep them in one place so that when you're really starting to feel down, you can kind of or are starting to feel that impostor syndrome that you don't belong, you can go there and look and see like, oh my gosh, these people have actually said nice things about me, you might not believe them, but it will help you start internalizing
your successes. And they'll also help you kind of have those positive affirmations, running through your head. This is something that I do I have no shame in my game, it has helped me a lot. You know, just it's, and I also think it helps you be grateful for kind of the people in your life and the things that you have been able to accomplish.
I think that's my favorite one out of all of them. That and celebrating even the small wins. You know, I think you're right, I don't think we celebrate enough. I don't think we celebrate ourselves enough. I don't think we celebrate each other enough, because, you know, because of many reasons. But that one and this last one. I really love because you can go
back. And when you get to look back at your successes, whether it was your successes over the course of a week or a month or six months or even a year it refills your cup to the top because it's Oh, the little successes or the wins, or the nice things that people say about you or, you know, sometimes they can just go in one ear and out the other. So by being able to have those on hand to go back and look at I think
that's huge. I think that's a really really great takeaway for beating imposter imposter syndrome.
Yeah, absolutely. I think above all else, you just have to remember to be patient with yourself for all of these, you know, it's kind of like you could start with all of these but start with one thing that you feel comfortable doing and just be patient with yourself. It's going to be slow progress, like any sort of kind of any sort of mental exercise where you're trying to get through distortions and help improve yourself so.
Awesome. Ellie, you've got - Do you have anything else to add to the table over here?
No, I loved it. I agree I think being able to write down like the the things to remind yourself that make you special and your accomplishments. But I wouldn't say maybe hide that notebook somewhere safe or people are gonna think you're really strange if you keep a notebook of all the nice things people have ever said about you! If somebody were to find that you'd maybe have to explain yourself, but I do love it (laughs).
Awesome. Well, Catherine, Ellie, thank you both for joining us today on Top5. It was really a pleasure having you guys on.
Yeah, thank you so much.
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