Hey guys, welcome back to Top Five brought to you by DefinedTalent We are a results driven service working with clients to connect them with quality talent as well as working to make an impact within the recruiting industry. We talk straight about today's professional world with real world professionals, experts in recruitment, job seekers and business owners alike. Have a question for us? Send it in and you might spark our next conversation. I'm Tara Thurber, Director of Talent Innovation.
And joining me today to discuss her Top5 Ways Mogul is Shaping Recruitment is Jen Durkee, Director, Global Community and support at Mogul. Hey, Jen, how are you today?
Hey, good. So happy to be here.
Awesome. We're so excited to have you on too. So let's just take a step back and walk us through Mogul and the importance of your position at the company.
Yeah, so Mogul is one of the world's leading diversity, recruitment platforms and communities for diverse leaders to connect, learn, share with each other and ultimately unlock their greatest potential.
So what that really looks like is, in my role as Director of Global Community and Support, I get to meet all of these amazing humans and connect them with each other to help learn with each other and mentor each other, get to connect them with resources, whether it's events or Learning Library, and ultimately, I get to connect them with amazing job opportunities or board placement
opportunities. And so I think a really cool part about what we do at Mogul is the community piece, you know, I see a lot of recruitment agencies out there. And not too many of them have that community component
Mmm Hmm...
That at the end of the day exists to be inclusive and supportive. And I often brag that I have the best job here at
Mogul. Because I get to meet with all of our amazing communities and I get to make magic happen for them, whatever their goals may be, I would say the majority of them it is - landing that dream job or that board opportunity, but it's also being able to introduce them to each other and showcase their thought leadership across our ecosystem and having an events that are really meaningful and supportive for them.
Yeah, it's so awesome. The community plays - I find such a huge, a huge, huge part in, in so many people's lives. I mean, whether it's an online community or an in-person, community, but community in general, because we are seeking as humans, to better ourselves. And you know, being in the recruitment industry, it's not only bettering our internal team, but bettering companies that we work with and
clients that we work with. And being a part of Mogul and that community, it's, it's like, it just opens so many more avenues to really build off of and connect with others.
Yeah, exactly. You know, I was asked recently, how I define community and what community means to me.
Yeah...
...that's like, that's such a good question. And I don't have a concise answer, because it's everything and it's its own thing. You know, it's who you've turned to, it's where you go for support, but it's alive in its own way as well. And I think that's really what we felt here and kind of a differentiating factor for us for for recruiting for those that are leveraging our talent solutions, they can be involved in our events and our community platform as well. And for the candidates, and in our
ecosystem. Game Changing.
Yeah, totally. So considering the state of the professional world today, how has company culture change changed regarding underserved and minority populations?
Yeah, I think we are seeing such a big shift right now. And I know you see this in your world to where, you know, 2020 happened, there was a lot of attention on making your life look like what you want it to and not putting your life on the line to have that traditional career go into the office commute in an hour both ways isn't fair.
I do not miss that at all.
I mean, I'm you know, I've been remote my whole career. I've been so lucky. I'm in sweatpants right now, how cool is that?
Yeah (laughs).
You know, also just a lot of social justice awareness and 2020 and a lot of companies being forced to meet the moment either forced or choosing to meet the moment and I think that has shifted where we're at today and as a recruiting industry. These companies are now not only you know, having to check a checkbox to meet diversity hiring needs, but taking it two or three steps farther to be inclusive to foster a sense of belonging to touch on the equity piece of the DEIB.
Yeah.
So I think it's it's such a powerful movement that we're seeing ripples even today from, you know, two years ago.
Yeah, absolutely. I absolutely agree with you on
that. And I think too, it's, I like the fact that companies aren't just putting checks in box, you know, making sure that they're crossing their T's and dotting their I's, but it's, it's starting from the bottom route of making sure the their group or their company, it starts deep down in internal to build an all-inclusive community, and to make sure that every single one of their employees feels included and feels part of it, which, you know, as a human, everybody
yearns for that, right? So the fact that it is it's become such a, I was gonna say, a hard movement, but a heavy movement, is something that is even more inspiring too I find for older companies that are trying to stay up with the times or, you know, new startups, it starts with creating and fostering that, to make it a successful business, because it's all about the people that you hire that build that business and create those teams, right?
Yeah, exactly. And there's such power and diversity of thought, you know?
Yes!
Not only just wanting to do better, but companies that really get it, they are outperforming those that don't, and those that aren't meeting the moment aren't meeting the mark in terms of diversity.
Yeah. And I like the diversity and thought piece that you just said, like that. That's it, it's diversity and thought is so key. And companies to get, you know, it's buy-in from all of your employees, it's making sure that everybody is working at, you know, said company with this, this purpose, this purpose to grow into - and it's not just professional growth and working for a company, and you're a body in a chair, it's professional and personal growth, it's life growth, that is really rooted
there. And it helps shape the way humans can really grow as, as just humans, whether, you know, no matter who they are, or anything, it's just, let's be humans together. And share our thoughts and grow that way. Right?
Exactly. And I think there's such power to that. And that's, you know, how I've always approached the roles that I've been in. I was so fortunate at such a young age to take on a medium-sized nonprofit as their executive director and really turned to everyone on my team, because I didn't have it all figured out.
Yeah.
I approached it every single day as what can I learn from from my team? And how can I support them grow as, at the same time?
Yeah.
I think that's what's really special about the mobile community too, you know, we do have a large group of very executive level, diverse leaders all over the world, but then there are some more junior folks too, and it's all inclusive in that way. And, you know, in my interactions, I'm gonna treat everyone the same, you know, whether you are on C Suite, at some big fancy company,
Yeah (laughs).
Starting out, you're gonna get the same level of resources and attention from from me and from mobile, so that we can accelerate you and your career and I think, you know, a lot of companies are starting to see that as powerful too.
Absolutely. And not to get off course. But I, going back to that I, I've found, in my career, I've been a part of companies that there's a major hierarchy, like you don't talk to the CEO, or you don't like there's, there's those power, almost like the power levels. Whereas really, over the past 5 - 10 years, it's been more of a, a flat playing field that we're all playing together, we're all supporting each other.
You know? And, and I have found I've not only grown tremendously, but everybody that I've worked with, it's the energy is different. It's everybody's in it. And nobody's afraid to speak up and questions are desired from others. Failures are desired, because that's what makes us all as a whole collaborative team succeed because we're going to learn from each other's failures. And so the flat organization and being able to take a step back and realize we're all in this same, we're all on the same
field playing together. And if we don't play together, how are we going to grow? I have found to be just such a different way, a different way to breathe at work, and it feels like I feel more empowered by it. And I know people that I work with feel more empowered by it, whether they're, you know, a junior, or even an intern starting out to, you know, the executive level, it's, it's kind of like this equality that we all share together. And I find that it's just such a, such a change in
the way I approach my day. And I know, it's, it's a change in the way everybody that I work with approaches their day being able to have that.
Absolutely. And, you know, I think there's a garbage truck outside, so it's a little loud, but...
(laughs)
I'm distracting...
The pleasures of working from home, right? (laughs)
(laughs) For my cats exciting, they like to watch. When I get to watch them at home. You know, really,
(laughs) I think to what's important about having that kind of access, and that kind of inclusion and in terms of organizations and for the Mogul community is, you have to see it to know that you can be it in a lot of instances, and there have been there's been such a lack of representation at the top, and in these more male-dominated organizations, you know, you know, for example, in VC funding, less than 2% of venture capital funding went to all female founding teams in 2021. Wow.
And, you know, the, the stats for women working in VCs are equally as awfully low.
(laughs)
A really important part about what we're doing here is that we are showing all of these next generation workers that they can be and do anything they want, they don't have to fit a certain model, they don't have to fit into what the mold used to look like, they don't have to be homogenous, they are valuable to show up as themselves wholly and completely. And that that's something that I think is so powerful to just show that
it's all about taking the blinders off. You know? I feel that even as, you know, when I do career coaching and life coaching with individuals, it all takes part of that. And it's taking the blinders off that you you're you don't have to be siloed into one onto one path, right? And by opening those blinders up for individuals, they can see that you CAN start your own business and you can do this or you can reach for the top, you don't that you don't have to settle,
right? You can always whatever you as an individual yearns for or wants to push for - Go for it. Because you know what? The blinders are off, the sky's the limit. And as long as you put that out there, you're gonna have that support behind you. And I think that that's really important for a lot of even our young people today. Because they've, they're, they're going through the the acts of taking
the blinders off, right? Because they realize that they can now and they don't have to walk in their parents footsteps, or they don't have to walk in anybody else's footsteps, but their own. And I think that that's really important in today's growth within all the different industries.
Absolutely. And part of that, too, is not only you know, seeing it and taking those blinders off and knowing that you can take any direction you want but it's also the education component, right? Like...
Yes!
When I started I had no clue that you can negotiate. You know, I'm thinking decades ago, I had no clue you can negotiate for a higher title
(laughs)
Or other things other than just pure salary and even even just negotiating for salary was had me shaking in.
Yeah.
Well, my socks because...
Right, right, right! (laughs)
(laughs) I'm not in my pumps. But there's power to democratizing that, that kind of knowledge. So stripping away the blinders and really empowering folks, whether it's through your education or connecting them to people that can help show them the way too.
Right? big part of community right there. So how are you finding companies and organizations remaining inclusive as industries ebb and flow today?
Yeah, you know, I think they have, I'm gonna step back here. I'd kind of talk about how I approach community as a function within organization first,
Yeah!
Because it mostly mirrors that while it is very
(laughs) different, as a community professional, you have to be so
...I feel you come join our monthly mindful Mogul, fluid, so flexible, you have to be very adaptable, you can work really hard and do all your homework, all of your research, come up with the best practices work within these frameworks that have proven to work and other communities. And then it just won't work (laughs). You have to then take a step back take a breather... and, you know, meet your members, your community members where they're at. For me, it's been getting on phone calls and
YES! (laughs) taking in a lot of qualitative feedback and data and then synthesizing that and turning it into a narrative that shows what the next step or next next iteration should be, as well as you know, quantitative data and what what's been shown to us in
...All of you. And then hit the ground running that way, too. And I think that's what these companies have to do, you know, they can really try the intentions can be there, and they can just miss the mark. And that can be really demotivating. So for recruiters or companies out there... again, just be fluid, be flexible, be adaptable. It's
also changing so fast. So you know what resources are out there for you here at Mogul, we have a lot of HR DEIB content each month in terms of events, you know, HR socials, things like that blogs and resources, all about the latest and greatest in terms of DEIB, recruiting and inclusion efforts. So stay on top of it, do your homework, and then know that it's okay to fail and miss the mark and try again.
Yeah, I agree. And I absolutely think that having Yeah, exactly. I think that's such an important piece. You Mogul as, as a community that we can be a part of is so amazing, because there's times I don't know where to turn for answers, or, you know, I don't know how to respond to situations or, you know, just being on the up and up of what's happening out there
today. It's so important to know and understand, because you always want to have your finger on the pulse of, you know, potential candidates or clients and really figure out where, where they're not gonna say falling short, but where they're struggling. So to be an educator as well, I need to be educated, right? So it's all, it all kind
of stems together. And being a part of the mobile community I have found, has not only given me a lot of education and knowledge, but it also is, you know, when I'm talking with candidates, or when I'm talking with clients, it's, it's another thing that I can say, hey, you need to go check out this community for, you know, whether it's knowledge or whether it's just taking a mindful reset. With some of the programs you guys have, I think is so huge.
And just again, being a part of it, allowing that ebb and flow allowing that - the agility of it all to realize it's okay. There are answers out there. And if there aren't answers, there's a community that you can ask the questions to, and everybody will come together to figure out the answers. don't have to have it all figured out. Right! (laughs)
As individual learners passionate about diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, we don't have to have it all figured out. But it is on us to take that step to educate ourselves. And you're not alone. There's there's a whole community out there. Yeah. You know, we actually are, I'm gonna share something that we haven't shared publicly yet. But we actually are starting a DEIB book club in June.
Awesome!! (laughs)
I know, I'm so excited. The first book is going to be great. We're launching in June. And it's we're really
excited. And that will be a way for folks that are individually interested in learning more about about this to personally educate themselves, but I think too, for a lot of our partners, partnering organizations and community members, it's a way for them to come learn for themselves and then put that extra lens on of what does this mean for for me at work and how I show up for all of the other humans with me.
Yeah, that's, I can't wait for that. I want more details on that.
Going Live this this week, I think so stay tuned.
All right. Awesome. So you know, my next, I think, which is a pretty big question is, you know, what is a proper response? When companies asked for talent sourced based on age, gender or ethnic background, how do you how do you respond to that?
Yeah, so I think, you know, starting out, I understand kind of where they're coming from, because they do want to do better, and they want their workforce to be representative of the makeup of our country, right, but...
...right.
That is a little bit of a red flag.
Yeah.
You have to take a step back and kind of do some educating there, because that could be discrimination, you know?
Mmm hmm.
Or only x, y, or z or whatever it might be. And I think it really comes back to that diversity of thought. And what we do at Mgul is present a fully diversified slate of candidates.
Yup.
And that really is tied back to that diversity of thought piece there where you know, someone, perhaps to you could not look like they're diverse, they don't perhaps fit in one of those checkboxes that you're wanting to check off. But they could be diverse. They could be neurodiverse could be a veteran, there could be so many ways that they are diverse.
Yeah.
And a difference of opinion, that's going to be so valuable for your organization that just by looking, you might not know. And so I think it comes back to that education and learning what it is that you're trying to accomplish. Right? And for a lot of organizations, it's it's having a diverse representation and makeup. And so you need to take a step back, look at how you're defining diversity...
"Diversity," yup.
And then I think, you know, a much larger component of that is looking at what else is going on. Because if you're sitting there at the start of that funnel, and really trying to funnel in a bunch of candidates that fit a particular type of diversity that you're trying to source for. What's going on more internally? What's your culture? What inclusion efforts do you have? What are you doing to foster belonging? And take a look at that, take a look at how you're branding
yourself. What other things is, is your organization doing that could be putting out these these good intentions out there and really show these more underrepresented groups that they're going to be not a toxic workplace to work for. So I get it, I do. But I think it just misses the mark a little bit.
I agree. And I like what you said it, you know, taking a step back and looking at diversity from a different level, or from a different set of shoes, really, and starting there and not looking at reaching out to a recruiter and saying, I need to make sure I hire three more females or I need to make sure I hire - it's not marking, it's not checking off the boxes. It's really, again, it's it's the human experience. It's human
diversity. And it's the thought, the thinking that comes with that, that also comes with so much more diversity than what they're thinking, I guess we could say, right, and being able to educate, I think is huge. And has showing people that there's different ways diversity comes
through. Through recruiting, you know, whether it's internal recruiters or external recruiters, I think recruiters also need to come back with helping their clients and educating their clients, especially when a client comes to them with an ask like that. It's going back into the roots of, you know, the shell of a client and how they are accompanying who they are, and then kind of changing it not changing it, but re-molding it or maybe just looking at it all in a different light.
Yeah, exactly. And I think both you and Mogual kind of approach recruiting in this way where you're actually putting more effort and work on your shoulders, because at the end of the day, you and our recruiters here, we don't want to place a diverse leader into a company or a role where they're not going to be happy and where the culture is not there for, for inclusion and belonging for them.
Yep.
And so I think, you know, a lot of recruiters at the end of the day they want roles filled and so their, that's their hyperfocused, and I get it, it's the industry for recruiters right now. It's wild and y'all are having to work so much harder than in previous years. But at the end of the day, it needs to be human-focused and focused on like, placing people somewhere where they're gonna thrive.
We are all humans. And I believe in that so deeply, you know, the hard skills are there, if you get a job description, the hard skills are there, okay? We can find that.
And then it's the soft skills, well, how, you know, what kind of approach should this person take against problem solving, it's those soft skills that come in too, and that's why I feel, you know, I love our connection with Mogul and, and the community at Mogul, because we come in, as, as recruiters, and it's not transactional, I'm not trying to throw bodies in a seat, it's partnering with our clients, it's partnering with our candidates to really get down to the root of how they
want to show up on a daily basis, who they are as a human, how their teams interact internally, what are their goals, you know, what are the candidates goals, and then making sure that everybody is in alignment, in order to be successful. And I think that, that, recruiting that way, and, and going about the approach, that way, on top of educating, there's so much more success at the end of the day, because I know, deep down that people are happy and connected and on a path for themselves and for
their own growth, right? And I can reach out to the Mogul community and share all of the knowledge and education that I receive with the people that we work with too because otherwise, there's no growth, there's nothing there but numbers. And sure, everybody likes numbers and data at the end of the day, yes. But there's also that human touch that seems to be missing
sometimes. And I think when you can put the human touch forward and humanize the process, humanize the whole situation, then that's where you can have that diversity, but through a truth that you're pushing forward successfully, for yourself, for your candidates and for your clients.
Yeah, I completely agree. And, you know, it does feel, you know, upfront, like perhaps a little bit more effort. But do you want to place a record number of, of candidates into roles where they're going to burn out hate life and quit?
(laughs)
Or do you want to place - you want to be more strategic and intentional about it and place these leaders into places where they're really going to thrive and want to stay forever? You know, I imagine some recruiters out there listening are like, No, I want to place 5,000 candidates by the end of the or whatever timeframe that looks like. But yeah, I think it's really important to pause and ask yourself, why you're in recruiting and what
got you into recruiting? It's probably, you know, I just interviewed one of our recruiters recently for the I have a Mogul campaign and how she got into recruiting and her focus is on humans and giving back. So imagine, it's pretty similar for a lot of recruiters out there. So if you're one of the ones listening and hearing this and saying, No, I want I'm really numbers-driven and want to place a record number of candidates. Is that really why you got into recruiting at the end of the day?
Right? Right. That's the biggest thing. I mean, one that one comment I always make is, I didn't go to school to become a recruiter I, I got recruited into recruiting (laughs). And it all stemmed from me just wanting to help people. And I remember so many years ago, gosh, just wanting to help people. And it was it was so much time and so much effort.
And I kept saying, you know, how can I make money doing this too, you know, because it's everything that I was, and then when I kind of got into recruiting, and it all just started to click because of that humanized approach that I've always taken, whether it's somebody that reached out to me, you know, asking for help or asking for advice, or it was when I started recruiting, and it's so important to approach it all that way and not just be focused on the numbers because
it's a totally different situation. And, you know, down the road, if you're gonna throw some bodies in chairs, if it's not a fit, you're gonna have to give some of that money back. You know, so it's really taking that truth and being able to humanize that. And, and I think that, you know, I know that that's why I got into it. And I feel that that's why a lot of recruiters I've spoken to they care, they want to help others.
So I think it's, it's a good approach doing it that way, rather than the other way, right?
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, to your point on just throwing bodies in chairs, and kind of the outcome of that for your contracts, you know, not only are you perhaps gonna have to send that money back, if it didn't work out with how you contracted with that company, but you're going to lose out on a lot of repeated business.
Yes!
If you keep making these these calls and placing candidates in a place where they're not happy, they're gonna leave.
Yeah.
That company is no longer gonna want to work with you at the end of the day. And part of it is them needing to learn how to how to have that good company culture, how to be inclusive, how to be a good place to work for diverse
leaders. And so I think the effort should come at the start rather than scrambling, once that contract falls apart, and you don't get a renewal on your contract, you know, push back at the start and work with them to be better, and then the candidates will stay and they'll be really happy, it'll be really easy to place these amazing diverse leaders into those companies, but only if you do it at the start rather than having to scramble at the end.
Totally agree. Totally agree. So Jen, talk to me, what are your Top5 Ways Mogul is Shaping Recruitment?
I would say is it is it a cop out to put community as the first three? Because I would say community, community, community.
No I love it, I love that.
I would be remiss, as our director of global community and support to not put community as number one, I think that is first and foremost. And some of the next points after it are things that happen directly in the community, such as, you know, education, it's, it's an education, that learning those those personal and professional development sessions that we have, as live events are learning both for the individuals in our community.
And then for the partners that we have the recruiters that are leveraging our platform as well, you know, self education for the individuals in our community as number two, because folks coming to us for recruiting are going to know that the people in our community that we're sourcing from are on top of it, they're connected, and continuing to expand their networks that they're gonna bring with them as
they join your company. And you'll have that larger audience just happen to when they show up with this community behind them. As well as you know, they are continuing to learn and upscale and grow in their careers. And so I would say community, 1, individual learning within the community as 2, and then I would say the third one is that learning on the organization side on our partner side.
Mmm Hmm.
I see that so impactful and game changing all of our monthly events and content that we're putting out there that is on the pulse when it comes to the intersection of diversity and recruiting, wildly game changing, and I'm not even in recruiting or HR and I find it so inspiring and educational, I would say number three, number four would be our diversified
search branch. And what we do there presenting a fully diversified slate of candidates and really pushing, pushing back to educate our partners and put candidates in front of them that they might not otherwise consider. And then that does go back to the education piece - a lot of our team works directly with them to do but you know, making it accessible for them to find these these candidates and for the candidates to be seen by
them. Number five for the ways Mogul is Shaping and Recruitment would be the the visibility piece and the branding that comes with it.
Absolutely.
You know, assume that our partners and all of the candidates have gone through that funnel of community, learning, being seen and getting access to a diversity of candidates. And then you've done all your homework. And then Mogul is going to elevate that and shout from the hilltops on all of the work that you've
done. You know, we have our Top 100 List for diverse leaders or diverse organizations, diverse culture organizations, and we're going to elevate you you've done all the work we're going to shout it and share with the community, so it's that kind of branding piece that you're doing, we will elevate that for you. And I think in a way that is really genuine, not just doing it because you're a partner or you're a candidate within our platform, but because
you've done the work. So you deserve that recognition, even if you're still, you know, making moves and still learning, we want to be able to recognize that.
Oh, I love all five of those, Jen, it just to me, I kind of it's, it's, it starts and then it comes full circle, right? And then you've got this unified circle that really just kind of builds off of that. And I love what Mogul is doing. I love what Mogul provides. Not only for members and or companies, but for individuals for everybody that you know, gives it that time and that space to learn to be a part of the community. So I just I
want to say thank you. Thank you, Jen, thank you to Mogul, thank you to the Mogul community, for everything because I feel that this is what you guys do is extremely important. And it's extremely beneficial. For so many different people and for so many different companies in so many
different ways. It really can open the doors, and open the eyes to some of those that may not see that and see those different avenues and the different opportunities and the education, that all comes with being a part of the Mogul community. So thank you.
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for being a part of it. You know, I think one last note here, one key takeaway is just the such great access to amazing individuals. You know, I'm sitting here in California, you're in New Jersey.
Yep.
We would literally have never met if it weren't for the Mogul community.
Yeah!
And that's power. And so thank you for being a part of it. And all of our members that are a part of it, all of our partners. It's really only works when we all show up and engage and try. Even if you're not going to get that A+ right away. Just show up and try.
Yeah, I just got goosebumps when you said that, that it's powerful.
(laughs)
Because you're right. I mean, today's day and age, I may not have ever met you, you being in California, me here in New Jersey and the fact that everybody can come together at such a different level, it is power, and it's helping to reconfigure and do it on more of a positive, authentic and genuine approach as a whole. Well, Jen, thank you so much again for being on today. I'm looking forward to the new Mogul release and I'm going to check
that out. Maybe we can share some information with our audience too once everything is out there. And, again, thank you so much for joining today.
Thanks so much.
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