Hey everyone, welcome back to Top5 brought to you by DefinedTalent. We are a results driven service working with clients to connect them with quality talent as well as working to make an impact within the recruiting industry. We talk straight about today's professional world with real world professionals, experts in recruitment, job seekers and business owners alike. Have a question for us? Send it in and you might spur our next conversation. I'm Tara Thurber, Director of Talent innovation
here at DefinedTalent. Joining us today is our very own Ellie Bright, Talent Partner at DefinedTalent, and Tsveta Semova founder and principal at Talent Masters to discuss some tips and best practices while embracing pay transparency laws. Hi, ladies, how are you today?
Hi, Tara!
I'm so excited to have both of you on this call to amazing recruiters within the crazy recruiting industry. And I'm excited to jump into the craziness of pay transparency laws. But before we dive in Tsveta, please tell us a little bit more about yourself and share some of the experience that led you to talent masters.
Yeah. Well, thank you both. Thank you, Tara. Thank you, Ellie. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be on your podcast this morning. So I am originally from Bulgaria. And I came to the US a long time ago, over 20 years ago. And coming from a family of educators, I quickly dove into the amount of for profit space, but never really felt fulfilled there, as long as a role had that didn't have a mission attached to it and wasn't really attractive to
me. So for about 15 years, I worked for international education organizations, and K through 12, education focused companies, as well as for companies in the social impact space. And I held roles through program management and staff recruitment, staff management
operations. And really, through this career trajectory, what I learned about myself is that I really enjoyed working with people and really motivating them, and helping them find their next career or their true potential or working with them to figure out where they wanted to be in their careers and how to get there. So about a year ago, I actually last week celebrated my first year anniversary of forming my own company, TalentMasters.
Congratulations!
Thank you. Thank you. So I took the leap and started my own talent recruitment company where I worked with companies and with senior leaders, helping them, on the one hand with establishing their talent strategies, but also on the other hand, helping them find that talent that nowadays is really hard to not just find, but also hire and sustain.
(laughs)
So I'm excited to have this conversation with you today. And I'm based outside of Boston. And I have a daughter, and I love chocolate. And I love yoga, and I love to travel. So that's a bit about me.
(laughs) I love everything about you right now, especially the chocolate and traveling. So well. I'm super excited. You know, I think something that kind of comes right to my head right out of the gate is, you know, what is pay transparency? And to our listeners out there. You know, there's varied approaches to pay transparency across the United
States. There is a trend that is requiring pay disclosures and new laws that are requiring disclosures among or upon request, but it's really this emerging trend towards proactive disclosures to applicants and employees. Some of the states that these laws are in already are Colorado, California, Maryland, Washington State, Rhode Island, Nevada, Connecticut. Most of those provide the salary range upon
request, but not up front. And then we kind of jump into New York and I say that because that's been kind of the talk in my world across all of our clients right now that are based in New York. I do know New Jersey for instance, some states there's specific towns or cities within each state that have these pay transparency laws. But you know, it's so crazy out there. With these new laws, though I like the transparency
of it. I think it's important internally for employees, but also for candidates out there looking for their next roles, just so you know, they're not wasting time maybe going after a role that isn't going to be paying what they feel is their worth, or what they're looking for in their range. But I guess, you know, in looking at and Tsveta thank you so much for the research that you shared with
us. In looking at your research, I saw that 86% of people would be open to having their their colleagues know how much they earned. This to me is much higher than I expected. What do you think about this?
Yeah, um, thank you, Tara. When I kind of dug into the data and looked at this, I was surprised myself.
Yeah.
And but at the same time, I wasn't because I have been on both sides, as I'm sure you have, as well, I've been on both sides of the story, where as a job seeker, I have been curious to know what the pay range is for a role and how I stack up against other candidates or also people over my peers, future employers in
the company. Also, as a hiring manager, and supervisor, I have been on the other end on the receiving end of, of having to really walk through that fine balance of, you know, at which point, do I tell a candidate what our pay ranges is? And and how do I navigate annual pay raises and conversations around performance and salary with with my team? And now that I have my own recruitment company this is really like that conversation has become front and center for all of us in the recruitment world.
Yeah.
And so I actually am not surprised, because with this move towards increased pay transparency, I think, and we'll dive into this conversation more, I think what we'll see and we'll continue to see is that the benefits of transparency outweigh the downsides, if you will. And so people are more willing, on the one hand, they do want to know what pay ranges are. But on the other hand, they, at that point, if information is out there, they're more willing to share
what they're paid. Because I think they see that, you know, that way, the if they're honest and forthcoming, they have more information and information is power. And that gives them the tools and the information to make decisions, whether to stay at their current role whether to start looking and I have lots more interesting data to kind of back that.
Perfect, perfect. Ellie, what are your thoughts?
Yeah, I was gonna say something that's interesting. And I, I feel like we've seen this shift, just as a generational difference. I feel like the millennial/Gen Z group is just in general more open and communicative about how they feel, mental health, and now this pay transparency.
Yeah.
I feel like, for the most part, I know what most of my friends are making and where they are financially. And I think I've heard so many times where you've had somebody that's been with a company for 15/20 years and they're maybe a senior person or in leadership, and the junior person that's only been there a year and a half is already out-salaried them.
Yup.
And I think it's a matter of knowing your worth and knowing how to ask for that, because nobody's just gonna hand you more money for a job well done, if they can save it. So it is interesting, I think, you know, as our world changes, and as this generation is now becoming the, the main part of who's in the corporate America, in this job community, I think that's going to change a lot.
Yeah, definitely. Tsveta, what would you say some of the benefits of pay transparency are?
Oh, yeah, that's, that's a great question. So I feel like there's benefits both for employers and for employees. And so let me start with employee since Ellie kind of mentioned, the millennial generation, I think for employees first and foremost, it can help close the pay gap.
Yeah.
We know that still, you know, still 2022 women, white women only get 83 cents, compared to every dollar that a white man earns. We know that black men and Hispanic men still earn 76 and 75 cents respectively. We know that black women get 57 cents, Native American women get 50 cents, and Latinos only get 49 cents, compared to what a white man would get, which is incredible that this is still happening in
2022! So I would say for employees, this is what I consider one of the top three benefits of pay transparency. Also, what Elie alluded to, is that, that really helps avoid salary compression. And salary compression is exactly the example Ellie gave, it happens when a new hire earns more than an employee that may have been there 10/15 years. And it can also happen when a newly promoted employee earns more than what their peers are earning within the organization.
And it can also happen when hourly workers are making more than their salaried manager that's not getting overtime. So as you can see, there's multiple examples of that where you may not be aware that you know that this is happening where you work. And so I think also, what's very important in 2022, is that kind of the trust in leadership, we see we talk about, you know, the this mass exodus and mass quitting. And
why is that happening? It's not just that we're all you know, tired that we went through a pandemic. It's not just burnout, it's also lack of trust in our leadership. And I think increased communication, increased transparency, that that contributes to that. I also think very importantly for us as recruiters, both in house and external, is that that saves time in the recruitment and
hiring process. When you have a pay range clearly delineated on the job description, that saves everybody time, that saves the recruiter time, that saves the candidate time, that saves the hiring manager time. When that information is there upfront. Why? And the studies show statistics show that really the kind of when you have paid transparency, the most - the best candidates that are most appropriate for the rules apply.
Yeah.
And that results in a shorter process for everybody. But also it results in an increased increased retention for the employer. So now moving on to the employer side, what are the benefits for employers? So again, shorter time recruiting hiring people, but also definitely lower staff, lower staff turnover. One research from PayScale, the company PayScale found that 57% of employees who are paid at market value, and interestingly 42% of employees who are paid above market, they believe that
they're paid below market. So let that sink.
Wow.
So almost half of the above more than half of the people that are paid at market and close to half of the people that are paid above market, they believe that they're paid below market. So imagine what that would mean, if they knew that they actually are at market or above market.
Yes, that's is huge, that matters.
Imagine.
And even even for some of the some of our clients that we're working with, you know, they're having to go through their entire process right now and audit where their employees are currently at, and where they, you know, getting them to market or above and I think you're completely right. It's It's kind of crazy, that you would think I mean, 50 some odd percent, at or above would think that they're not getting it so that transparency can be huge for a company.
Right. Right. And, and I think the research also shows that those people this huge group that believes that they're paid below market, two thirds of them 66% are looking for a new job, compared to only to 34% of those that believe they're paid at or above market. So that means that, you know, employees who think they're paid below market, even if they're not, they're looking for a new job.
Yeah.
So imagine what that could mean, if there was a
Wow. transparency within an organization for staff retention, and as we mentioned earlier for trust, then very much related to that, we see that there's a boost in employee performance.
When teams know and staff knows how much they're paid compared to their peers, they're much more motivated to actually be doing well at work, because they're not worried about, Oh, am I paid enough? Or am I not paid enough? And so this really helps with boosting employee morale, and with kind of your team's just being more
motivated? And then also, I would say, lastly, but probably not, you know, I think it's also very important that even though only about eight states are still kind of implementing these rules, if instincts were these rules and regulations are not in place, yet, if organizations and companies start moving in that direction, they would be seen as market leaders, and they would gain market advantage, because the wave, you know, that's the wave, even if we say, oh, only eight states and a handful of
towns. Have passed these laws, in actuality, those are
Right. really, you know, when you look at the states, California is one of the most populous states. So I did the math, and actually 25% of the US population is covered by these laws, it's 86 million Americans that live in a state that these laws are passed. Wow.
So imagine, you know, we're thinking, Oh, it's just starting, but actually it isn't and it's here.
Yeah.
A quarter of us live or work in a state that already has a law related to pay transparency.
Interesting.
That's so interesting to really be able to dig into that Ellie, what were you gonna say?
Yeah, I was gonna say, I think another and maybe it's more of a benefit to candidates in the job market, but it forces the hiring team to stay competitive, I guess, thinking about this is an example not saying that either of these companies are this way, but let's say HBO is hiring a data analyst and they're like, Okay, I'm only gonna, I think we're gonna a lot like $80,000 a
year for this. And then they can go in and see that Peacock, NBC and Peacock are gonna pay $105,000 for this person, and then they know, okay, we need to be more competitive - all of our people and anybody applying or going to Peacock instead of us. So I think that that is really interesting, that I feel like a lot of times as recruiters, our hiring managers are saying, Hey, can you do some market research so that we can figure out what
to pay this person? And you know, it'll be nice that they'll be able to go in and see that on their own, how competitive they are, or aren't in their market. So I think that could be a really interesting benefit to keep companies competitive.
Definitely. I definitely see that too out there. You know, and it's when you when doing research on salaries out there, too, I could also see there's a lot of different ranges that are out there. So really, it's taking different ranges, and then looking at your own business, and how your own business makes money and pays its employees and how it could be relative to other industries or other companies out there is important, it's definitely important for companies to do
their homework. It's not just pulling numbers out of thin air. It's really going in and doing the homework because the market is so competitive right now. What would you guys say downsides are to pay transparency laws?
Yeah, I would say I like to call them also considerations.
I like that too.
Like, oh, it's downsides. You there's there's some definite downsides for companies, right? Like it can and in most cases, will cost companies more there's just no way around it. You know, as Ellie said, when you're doing salary benchmarking, you realize, you know, you realize that you may be underpaid or you're not as competitive as you
want to be. So yeah, so there's definitely something that companies have, that are solely and predominantly focused on revenue, that they have something to lose here, right?
Yeah.
The ability to pay people lower salaries, because until now, they were able to do so, but now by by being more transparent about wages, they were in a situation that they may have to pay more to retain an employee that was being paid below market, you know, someone that is really essential.
Yeah.
Or that may mean that they may not be able to hire as many people. So there's definitely that consideration that, you know, they have to look at their balance sheet and their budgets a lot more carefully.
Yeah.
I think, also, as we talked a bit earlier, about staff retention, it can have the opposite effect, you know, when people within the organization, the company know, what their peers are paid. And we know that loyalty right now is at an all time low, they may just say, Oh, wow, look at that. So you know, I've been underpaid all these years, I'm just going to jump ship, you know, and, and look for some other place.
Right.
And, and so, so that's interesting. And then I know, we all work in kind of in a space where we hire for companies that are looking for hybrid or remote workers. So that's a big question mark.
Yes!
For companies that have multiple offices or remote employees, those geographic differentials, they can yield a very wide range, very wide range if the employer must account for each individual location. And so how do you navigate that? And I don't have an answer for that!
(laughs) Well and I think, too, you know, cost of living in different states, right?
Mmm hmm.
That's another hurdle that companies need to get to do their research on.
Right.
Not just get get over it's do the research on that for each state where you have employees and geographic locations, or, you know, you're asking employees to commute. I mean, the cost of living has gone up so much that each company needs to really think about that and take that into consideration. Right?
Right.
In my last role it was interesting, I was in New York City, and I had also interviewed in our Jacksonville, Florida office, and the pay from Jacksonville to New York, was very different. But the other nice thing that they did was after I'd been there, maybe like a year and a half, they actually reevaluated the cost of living in New York, and gave us maybe like a $2,500 pay bump, because of cost of living and expenses of the subway and travel and all
of that. So I think it's just constantly looking at doing research and reevaluating, so that you can reward or give your employees that benefit. You know, as it changes, basically. So keeping yourself again, being honest about the situations that you are in, so that you can address that.
Right, that goes back a little bit to that salary compression that we were talking about. Right? So it's, you know, how do you manage existing staff discrepancies? Or like, how do you manage this on an ongoing basis? If an employee moves from like, if you moved from Florida to New York, or vice versa?
Right.
What do you do? Would you you know, would your salary get lower or higher? So, I really feel for talent leaders and compensation leaders at companies nowadays because it's not an easy solution. And it's not kind of one solution says at all, you kind of have to constantly be on the lookout and improve on your pa.y strategy.
Yup. And on I think communication, being extremely candid and open with your employees is very important too. And that kind of adds to the trust factor of you building more trust with your employees. You know, it adds to the quality of life, but being able to be candid and transparent across the board. I think is something that a lot of employees would value rather than kind of having I was gonna say kind of having a curtain in front of it all
instead, right? By opening that curtain and allowing everybody to see through companies shouldn't stress about that. It's, you know, it's something that we all as humans, we want that truth. Right? We want that honesty, we want that truth. And, you know, I think we want that from our employers just as much as we want it from our friends, in order to show up as the best version of ourselves on a daily basis for our business in our profession. Right?
Yeah. And, Tara,
you bring up a good point. And what, you know, what some employers are saying is kind of to counter to what you're saying is, well, yes, BUT what we're seeing is, when we disclose this information, all of a sudden, you know, people become jealous when they see that their colleagues are making more, or we see that performance goes down, all of a sudden, and then so they are saying that you're kind of broadcasting everybody's individual pay, triggers this process of everybody comparing
themselves to their peers.
Yeah.
And so that is something that, yes, while very real, to your point, I think with a very strong communication strategy or strategies that's put in place, how do to navigate that and, you know, I'm excited to talk about kind of best practices and what employers can do as you continue the conversation, but while it's a downside that HR leaders and leaders within companies have to deal with and have to manage it is also something that's
unavoidable. So I'm actually curious to hear Ellie, how have you seen this kind of play out? You said, you know, amongst your friends and co workers, that pay transparency is, you know, it's not a big deal? Have you seen this be a problem where you know, you're jealous, or, or other people are jealous? How does that really kind of reflect on the day to day?
Yeah, it's interesting, I actually have a good example of this, I hired one of my girlfriends to work for one of our clients. And we both moved back to Jacksonville after the pandemic. And like I said, I ended up getting her another job out of like, New Jersey, so we're both in that New Jersey area. And when we hired her, she was like, I just feel like I'm not making the amount of money that all of my
friends are making. And she's like, I feel like I'm a hard worker, I have all this experience, but I just can't seem to get out of this X, Y and Z range. And it was interesting to kind of hear that I'm like, you know, again, there's nothing wrong with the work that you put in, you're you are a hard worker, you have a lot of valuable skills that you bring to the table, I think sometimes it's just there are roles where they're only tied to a certain budget might be the right fit
for you. And it might have a lot of growth down the line, but you have to start out at a certain
range. So, you know, there are times where I see that conversation being interesting and kind of difficult, but at the same time, I think there is an aspect of stay in your lane a little bit where you're like, you know, I can see a candidate or an employee going to a hiring manager and saying, Well, I saw that so and so makes XYZ more than me, and that hiring manager being like, okay, but you are not doing the same job.
Mmm hmm.
If you can tell me how you've grown, what additional responsibilities you've taken on? Are you leading or mentoring new people? How is your job changed since we originally hired you? Then like, let's talk about a pay bump. But this person that you're comparing yourself to has X, Y and Z certifications that you don't, you know, they've been leading one or two people, they've been working extra hours, you just never know what that person's additional experience looks like.
Yeah.
So at some point, if you're bringing that up to your manager, you better be able to back it up and say, Here's how I've grown, here are the things that I'm doing for you that are invaluable. And here's why I deserve to be at a higher pay grade.
Yeah.
So I think it comes down to you could never say, Well, I saw so and so did
this, so I deserve it. That's you need to put it in new terms and make yourself that value add so that they can't say no. That's where I kind of take that and how I kind of took it with my friend, you know, you can compare yourself to others, but at the end of the day, like, you are still you, and your value, reflects the work that you do, and not that she doesn't maybe deserve more money, but you can't compare yourself to others in that situation.
I agree too and one thing that kind of keeps coming back at me is, individuals need to look at this not as a hardship, but as an opportunity, they need to look at all of this as a major opportunity for them to take a step back, look at what they do, look at their role, their responsibilities, and really kind of step into their full self worth, and not look at it as a jealousy, but look at it as an opportunity to be better, to do better to, to advance
themselves. And, I think that there's so much negative talk and worry and stress is about this pay transparency. But really there, there's so much more opportunity that can come for and with employees and
employers. So instead of kind of taking the negative approach to it, really shifting that mindset and taking the positive approach, and figuring out, okay, and even, you know, be and by doing that exercise almost mentally, and physically, if you want to write things down to kind of pull together, you know, your own vision of your own path, and where you're at, I think is even a extremely important to share with your employers, because they want to know, okay, this person is
stepping up if somebody is going to get grumpy and, and get jealous, because their peer's making more than them. And you know, then they leave the company, well, that's on that individual for taking it to the negative approach, right, you could take it so many different ways positively, in order to grow your own self knowledge and self worth, about who you are
and who you work with. Just kind of some food for thought that I just it, it's targeting me very deeply right now, where a lot of people are thinking so negative about it. But as an employee, it gives you the opportunity, it gives you time to find even more opportunity for yourself.
Yeah, um, Tara would now be a bad time to ask for a raise? (laughs)
(laughs) I love you, Ellie.
You know, I think to same thing for employers, I think you have the opportunity to reevaluate your staff, and where, where they stand.
Absolutley.
And I think as an employer, your employees should feel comfortable knowing where they stand in the in on your team in the organization. And, again, if you have kind of done some sketchy things to keep, you know, a more senior person at a lower salary, like it's time to reevaluate.
Yup.
Mmm hmm.
Like you can't be doing that, or you will lose them. And then, you know, somebody else will take on their work, and it'll be an even bigger problem. So I think it's about reevaluating, reassessing what you can do to make everybody happy and comfortable and just being able to be flexible in that.
Yeah. I love it. And I am so glad to kind of see that move towards greater transparency and authenticity just overall, you know. I think this is a really pivotal moment and a
Absolutely. great opportunity, as we said, as you said, Tara not just for an employee to do that work themselves, which I think many are already doing it, which is why we've seen this incredible shift this past year of - I was reading the stats 4 to 5 Americans changing jobs in 2022, which is incredible. And we're just thinking about it. I am not even sure if that's the right number, but it sounded like just so big that that it's hard to
comprehend. But also companies even if they don't want to, they kind of have to they're coming to a point where they have to start doing this thinking about it. And I'd say at least in my work, what I see in working with senior leaders of companies is that they Do care staff. Yup.
They do care about retention. They are thinking about it. And so the question is, how do you do it? Like what, you know, how do you even start thinking about?
So, Tsveta, I'm going to put this back with you.
(laughs)
Let's go through some top five tips and best practices.
Yay. My favorite - my favorite topic. Thanks, Tara. So yeah, I think the most important thing is getting your company leaders on board, like nothing can happen without the CEO or the head of people, the head of HR, the whole senior leadership team, without all of them being in the same boat on the same page about how important this is across the
whole organization. Because even if you have just one leader of one division, that may be the most profitable, that says, No, I'm not gonna do that, then it's not it's not going to work. So I think that's number one is get your company, company leaders on
board. Number two, I would say is doing a very honest, audit, internal audit on and reviewing hiring, rewards and compensation practices and programs and going through each step of the process and identifying, you know, where is there kind of a hidden or overt inequality or inequity in the process? And to make sure that jobs and pay are managed, and that they're governed consistently and fair, because you may be very, you know, transparent internally, but not
be transparent externally. So kind of from A through Z, making, conducting that internal audit, and then building really objective salary ranges. And I think, one kind of important topic that we haven't really breached into an it's not the the topic of today's conversation is inequity, and where it's most present is at the senior level, that's where it's most common, right?
Yeah.
You know, CEOs, presidents, founders, owners of companies making the highest salaries, which, you know, maybe they should. But really disclosing that, but and making a substantiated explanation, and having a narrative in the story of why this is. So addressing those pay inequities, kind of before posting new positions, being transparent about compensation, kind of thinking about what your strategy is for pay for compensation for
recruitment. And that kind of goes back to, you know, budgeting for merit based increases, you know, thinking at what, how do I keep my existing employees happy?
Yeah.
And if during this audit, you realize that you're not paying people enough budget in for that, and we know, you know, we know that companies are projected this year, kind of the average is 3.4% of salary increase, while people that are changing their jobs are seeing close to a 10% pay increase.
Yeah.
So thinking about am I going to lose my top people if I only give them the 3.434 or 5%? Right? And so kind of earmarking space in your budget
Yeah. for that is important. And then I'd say we talk throughout this conversation a lot about communication. And with internal communication, external communication, how do you roll out these communication practices or depending on the needs of your organization? You know, how do you really train your hiring managers to have
those conversations? Let's say you already have established a very equitable pay strategy, you're clear on your, you know, internal salary levels on what your job postings for new roles would be, but how do you really roll that out internally? How do you communicate it to people? What's the follow through? How do you make sure that people feel compelled and comfortable? Yeah.
Bringing feedback to the HR team, the people team were their own managers. So kind of thinking about all of these areas of, you know, pay strategy, transparency around compensensation, and really thinking about communication and education, I would say are kind of the top areas that come to mind when thinking about how do we move from where we are now to where we want to be.
I love all of these tips and best practices, I think a lot of these, they all make sense. And it's all a matter of, you know, going from addressing pay inequities to bringing in new people at different levels, but then also, you know, stuff, some points that you touch base on too is culture, you know, organizational culture is huge
right now. And, you know, I know, some people will take lower paying jobs that have more flexibility that are completely 100% work from home, you know, and so I think that there's also this give and take to, that companies need to be aware of, and going back to communicate and communicate with your employees what their needs and wants are, and then figuring out how you can meet in the middle, right?
Yeah.
It's not, maybe it's not something that you're, they're gonna get everything that they need and want, but maybe as a company, you can say, okay, we can meet you in the middle here, but then also talking about their forward path, their forward career path within that specific company, you know, how you can help them to even continue to grow, continue to get compensated more
every year. You know, and I think there's, I feel like there's a lot of different avenues and depending on the type of business, some work and some don't, right?
I was going to say, I think, you know, we've talked in this conversation a lot about pay and salaries and compensation, but you bring up a very good point that compensation, that salary is not the only things.
It's not everything.
It's not everything. And as a matter of fact, well, we - other areas that we talked about, you know, trust and leadership, feeling as part of a team. Culture fit are, if not more important, depending
Yep. on the person, they may be more important to someone. So really talking about and figuring out a way to highlight other things besides salary that should make someone a candidate excited about a company. You know, I know I do this a lot, because I recruit a lot in the kind of in the social impact space, where salary is just one part of the whole package. Absolutely.
Just talking about what else is there for me? Is it a great team? Is it you know, is it unlimited PTO? Is it flexible schedules? Is it remote or flexible? Or like more, hybrid work? Is it you know, career development opportunities? What's in it for this particular person? What makes them tick? What motivates them? What makes them excited, besides the salary compensation? And I think, you know, I see this in my work every day as a recruiter.
Yeah.
And I can't stress that enough to the senior leaders that I work with. That that is also very important when you when you talk about pay transparency is just like culture transparency.
Yes!
And I know that DefineTalent you do a lot of marketing work too is like, how do you tell the full story about a company or about an employer about a culture? So it's not just about the money? It's about, like, why do you wake up every day to do this work? And I'm sure Ellie, doesn't work for you, Tara, just because of the money (laughs).
(laughs)
(laughs)
I've heard that you are a great woman leader. And you know, and that's why it's not just the money, I'm sure Ellie will eventually get that salary increase. But until then, I'm sure she really appreciates other things about
you, you know. So I think I think it's important not to, you know, when leaders think about what may seem like a daunting project for 2023, because that's when a lot of these laws will be coming into effect is to think about, you know, as you said, Tara, how is this an opportunity for me?
Yes.
How is this an opportunity for our company to highlight the great things that we have, to be transparent about the things that we're still working on? Because for a lot of companies, this would you know, many of their pay equity programs are not ready yet. They're working on them. And I know they're stressing about
them. And it shouldn't just be kind of a time for stressing, but it's a time for sitting down, thinking through evaluating their whole kind of culture and strategy around pay culture and their people.
I love all of it. And I couldn't agree more, I think it's really a good opportunity for businesses, employers and employees to take a step back and reevaluate, and then be able to take that larger step forward, as we approach 2023. And, you know, what the future holds for employers and employees isn't just based off of pay, it's based off of living, you know. It's funny, somebody the other day said, it's not just work life balance,
it's now life balance. And that also includes salary expectations, and bringing in the pay transparency, I really think it fully encompasses everything. And I'm excited to see what happens in 2023. And, you know, here for clients to reach out to, to discuss strategies and maybe help implement them internally. But also to help with, you know, that big cloud that a lot of employers are feeling that
they're under right now. Because it could be a daunting undertaking, but at the end of the day, there's really, you know, there's light at the end of the tunnel for for both sides, employers and employees, and I think it's for everybody's benefit, to just step up and, you know, look for and find your worth as a whole.
100%. And I think you kind of you said it, I think, you know, pay transparency makes sense. It's here to stay, even though it may have potential challenges and downsides. But I think with more and more states, counties, cities, proposing and passing these laws, I think we'll see it really become a core part of how
businesses operate. So I'm just actually I'm curious to see how soon and how quickly this will become a part of everyday life and of the next generation just being like, what are we talking about?
Yeah, this is normal (laughs). Oh, well, thank you both for joining us today. It was really a pleasure having the two of you on to really get you know your thoughts as you know, high level recruiters within the industry and, and really kind of pick both of your brains. So again, thank you so much for joining us at Top5. We are DefinedTalent, a DefinedLogic service coming to you at top five. Make it a great day.