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conversation. I'm Tara Thurber, Director of Talent Innovation. And joining me today to discuss his top five tips on how to leverage freelancers is Marlon Rosenweig, CEO and Co-Founder of WorkGenius. Hey, Marlon, how are you today?
Good, how are you? Thanks for having me on, Tara.
I'm good. Thank you. Thanks for joining us, really excited to have you on, especially with today's day and age of freelancing. And, you know, I'd love to hear a little bit about you and who you are your background and how you how you came up with or came, came to be with WorkGenius.
I'm, I'm one of the co founders have worked in is I've been with the company from the very beginning. Originally from Germany, I lived in the UK for a little bit. And we started the company in Germany, to basically build the infrastructure for the freelance
revolution. And then we're going to talk about the freelance revolution a little bit more, but it's basically sourcing the right freelancers, managing those freelancers, and paying those freelancers are three challenges that organizations face when embracing the freelance revolution. And we build a tech platform that addresses all of them. And you know, in our opinion, makes it very easy for companies to be ready and achieve great results with a freelance workforce.
Excellent. And when did you, you now brought it to the US? So how long ago did that happen?
So we started out in 2012. right in, in Germany, one of the most regulated labor markets on the planet, I think it would be second to France, maybe. Which is, you know, that's not a desirable position to be in.
Right.
But it did, it did teach us a lot on what it means to be compliant when working with freelancers, you know, sort of the equivalent between 1099 W2. So having grown up in this highly regulated environment, we then sort of, you know, wanted to basically explore a bigger market, which obviously, is the US. That's that sort of, you know, it's convenient that we spoke the language.
Right.
What we've seen is also that sort of, you know, innovation tends to be a few years ahead in the US. So we came over in 2017, really, when we sort of started our operations over here.
Excellent. And, you know, I can only imagine just over the course of the past two, two years, but really this the past year of where you've gotten to from where you've started, you know, I've been in the recruiting industry doing freelancing and full time direct placement. And it's hard. I mean, I know, there's so many different rules and regulations that are that you need to really
adhere to. So coming here, and then over this course of this past year, specifically, you know, have you seen a major spike in the freelancing industry?
I think it's, it's been sort of a continuous shift towards freelancing in the last couple of years, what the pandemic has done is definitely accelerated that shift. That is what that is what we have seen, and at this point, we even think about it sort of, you know, as a flywheel almost, for two reasons. One, companies are sort of looking for a more flexible
workforce. They're looking for, you know, a workforce with sort of very niche skills that they only have a demand for, you know, a couple of months, not necessarily so much that they would want to hire someone full time for the next five years. So that's on there on the company side, and then the talent side, you know, the younger generations really prefer the flexibility that they find in
freelancing. So it's, it's even difficult to find young people that want to be you know, full time on your payroll for the next three years. And I think those two things in combination create that flywheel that really drives the adoption of freelancing.
Excellent. And now, are you do you sit? Or is freelancing, you know, a way for job seekers to really be focusing if they're not finding the direct hire roles? Or is it a good thing for people to be doing during the pandemic?
It's an interesting way how you phrase the question, I think, you know, that almost sounds as if the direct hire would be preferred.
Yeah.
With a freelance engagement. I don't even think that's the case. And don't get me wrong. You know, my grandmother asked me why would you get into freelancing? Isn't that for people that don't get a job? Right? That was that was her interpretation of what her grandson's doing?
Right.
Not very proud of it, really. But I think that has changed. I think we talked to a lot of freelancers. And, you know, there's official statistics. And people say, even if they were paid more money, they would not opt for the direct hire full time position anymore. They crave that flexibility. You know, from a lifestyle perspective, you know, you can go and walk your dog at 10am, right, if you're, if it's result driven, and that's all that matters. And there's no face time. I think that that's
one thing. But it's also exciting to think that you work on different projects, you know, in a given year, and, you know, most direct hires know, you know, they don't necessarily get that chance, you meet new people. And, you know, I think it's exciting. And yeah, definitely, it's a, it's a good way to make money. And it's a good way to, you know, develop your own skill set and be engaged in very interesting projects, and leverage that knowledge from one project to
the other. And walk your dog at 10am.
Right, well, and I think too, it's, it's the experience that allows somebody to test different roles or different cultures, because the freelancers are still working within teams, right, or, and it allows individuals a little bit more, maybe freedom, and I find to for freelancers, it's a different, it's a different way of life, there's, there's a different hustle that you need, or have within you to be, you know, chasing chasing the next role or putting your, your expertise to use at different
clients.
And I think it can even lead to more appreciation from the companies to be honest. But if you're a freelancer, that's highly skilled, the company is very, very happy to have you, if you're an employee, you know, the, fear that you're leaving and going somewhere else might not be as imminent as it is when
you're a freelancer. So I think, you know, while this might be counterintuitive, I think there's there's a lot of freelancers that received much better treatment from companies, you know, companies.
Yeah.
People within those companies, because they truly appreciate what the freelancers bring to the organization.
Right. What would you say the benefits for companies looking to hire freelancers are?
There's so many.
Yeah.
But let me let me sort of, you know, walk you through a couple maybe one is definitely speed. Right?
Yeah.
If you were to hire someone directly, that typically takes you know, 52 days this is these are pre pandemic numbers, but much longer than if you want to engage a freelancer, right in freelancing, you could get started tomorrow, a full time employee, you need to find them, they need to quit their other job, then, you know, it's it takes off. So speed is one thing. The second thing is you get really good skill sets.
Yeah, for a specific period of time that you need them, right, think about a relaunch campaign that you have, and you need a brand strategist, you can get that brand strategist for six to nine months helping you develop the, you know, plan, help with the execution, and then they move on and they brought all of the experience that they had somewhere else, which is something very hard to find in
an employee. There's sort of, you know, marketing agencies that will bridge that gap, but that's you know, that's a service providers so that that's different. But I think those are the two things and then thirdly, flexibility if we you know if we've learned one thing last year, you want to keep your cost base flexible.
Yeah.
Right because some an invoice. Ways some organizations have seen a surge in demand for their services and products. And they needed to get people in and they needed to grow their internal teams. And the way to do it was with freelancers. Right? We were all remote. So it was okay. Let me get, you know, 50 people in that have done this before. They're ready to start Monday. Let's go. Let's get it done.
Yeah.
And you can't do that with full time employees, you don't have that flexibility. Right. And other companies have seen, you know, the demand for their services plummet, and they need to let people go, right. And freelancing gives you a very good opportunity to scale up and down faster than ever.
Yeah, that's those are those are, I mean, I know, from utilizing WorkGenius, that it's, there's definitely lots and lots of benefits to bringing freelancers on board and just kind of driving that force as well. Do you find are there any downsides to it?
Of course, I think, you know, there's certain roles where you shouldn't hire a freelancer, right? If you're looking for a a CEO who's driving the strategy of the company for the next five years...
Not so much.
Not so much, right. And even like, let's say a CFO, or you know, someone who's like, deeply embedded in sort of the the strategy of the long term prospect of the company, doesn't make so much sense. So, you know, for those roles, I think the downsides are so so drastic that you don't
even want to consider it. For normal freelancing, let's say we have established that the role could be done by a freelancer, I think there's a lot of overhead that's involved in finding the right Freelancer getting them on board fast, and then, you know, getting them off board fast as
well. So I think that's something that's historically been overlooked, we see in a lot of large organizations, some of the largest marketing agencies in the world, and now considering finding technology solutions to manage exactly that process, because it can be painful for an organization to do all of that manually, it's a huge burden on your internal
team. So I think, you know, acknowledge the overhead find a solution for it, I think that is sort of the you know, that's that's one downside, and I think that's also one of the one of the tips that I would, I would provide that, that, you know, it's a huge, it can be a huge burden on your internal team, if you don't have the right setup
for it. Another thing is, you know, maybe just just to add to this, I think another one is, you want to preserve the, the track record of the freelancer, you know, we are very good at doing performance reviews with our internal employees. And, you know, we can track all of this in sort of human capital
management systems. But don't underestimate how important that is for freelancers, as well, if you're, you know, if you do a relaunch project this year, and then you do another one in three years, and you want to know whichfreelancer was good, the chances are that the internal employee that knows about this is not with you anymore. Yeah, they're moved on. So you want to have a system where you can store the track record and the performance reviews, even for freelancers.
That makes total sense. And, you know, in in speaking with companies, you know, while being out and speaking to clients, myself, I know, some companies have started that are just all direct hire full time employees, they've really started to dip their toes into the waters of the freelance world, and you know, what it would be like, when would you say, a freelancer is a sound business decision to to make to really decide, okay, these are the types of people or this is the type of structure we
want to either add to our current structure move into, or, you know, go into fully, when would you say, you know, making those decisions would be a good, a good start.
So, what we see is that about, you know, the, the freelance economy in the United States is about a trillion dollars a year. Massive.
Yeah.
That's, you know, 5% of GDP.
Yeah.
Those are independent contractors providing services to organizations. What we see with sort of, you know, some of our more established clients is that about 10% of payroll is spend on freelancers.
Okay.
Which, you know, is sort of on the low end, we've also, you know, we work with organizations that have like 50% of their payroll, you know, being being spent on freelancers. I think if you want to, you know, if you want to be a winner in tomorrow's economy, you do need to embrace freelancing. You know, your faster you get better skill sets, you have a better sort of more flexible cost specs, hands down.
I love it. And then, you know, I know too. Internally, a lot of times, there can be a lot of moving pieces in order to bring freelancers on. You know, do you have an really managing freelancers? Do you have any suggestions on handling the flexibility that freelancers want? Or the task management for freelancers, when bringing freelancers into an organization?
Yeah, I think, you know, and I don't want this to sound like a sales pitch too much. But, you know, there's, there's there's three things that internal employees typically complain about raise, it's easier for me to talk to a colleague that sits next to me right now, as as antiquated as this may sound these days, right? Sitting next to each other. I think the sourcing component is important, right? You, you need to have a technology that allows you to find the right Freelancer fast.
From a project management perspective. You want you want good tracking of what needs to get done. And you want good performance tracking as well. Right? The freelancers will leverage that to land other projects, right? It's sort of, you know, getting credentials that they can put on their profile. So it's important to them to make sure that you are happy as a client. And then thirdly, I think compliance and payment is very important. And you want to streamline that as
much as possible. Because if you look at the current organization, it's very good at bringing on board a full time employee that's on your payroll and gets a W2 at the end of the year.
Yeah.
Your organization is probably not in such good shape to bring on a freelancer for the next three months. Decide whether they need 1099 or W2 manage all of their projects efficiently. That is not something that organizations have learned yet, or are set up to right. Every HR department knows how to onboard an FDE and issued w two at the end of the year. Everyone knows that. I think on the freelancing side, there's you know, there's something to be learned and some progress to be made.
Absolutely. And, you know, speaking from my own experience there, there are compliance laws and regulations too, when bringing a freelancer on whether it's a freelancer doing wanting a 1099 or, or wanting that W2. So I think, you know, with what you guys provide an offer, I think is huge for somebody, a client to even start entertaining the freelance
world. You know, I mean, it, what would you say really sets you WorkGenius, different than some of the big recruiting agencies that focus on freelance. Sorry, I pulled that one out, because I I'm curious, because I've, you know, I've seen both sides. So and I think I know what the difference would be. But I'm curious as to what you feel the difference is?
Yeah, I think there's.... if you want a freelancer, let's say Tara wants a graphic designer for the next three months to help her with a marketing campaign. Okay. You can turn to traditional staffing firm, and they will find you someone, right, and they will find you someone great. Yeah. And they will do that manually. Right? They will find that person for you. It may take a couple of days. And they will run the payroll for them as well. I think what's different about us is you have
Right, right, right. more transparency, and you're more in control. We also provide you with a great freelancer, but you have it on a web interface, you see the progress, you can just log into your account and you see it right away. You can make that decision whom you want to work with, you get you know a plethora of data on these freelancers. You can see how many hours they've worked in the last six months on what type of project is and it's very, very
transparent. And we believe that therefore we can sort of keep the churn very, very low. We can keep you very happy with that talent. And that's it. You don't have to deal with anything else either. Right? nor do you have whether with a staffing or recruiting firm, but our technology does everything else, and it preserves that data for you to be accessible at the click of a button, you can run a report, any day, you can say, How much have I spend on this of
this talent? How much has this department spend on graphic design talent? Yeah, you can share that insight with your boss, with a colleague, you can share profiles with your colleagues, you can say, Tara had a great experience with that graphic designer. And now you know, the graphic designer can move on. And she can work for one of your colleagues, right for the next two months. So all of that is done through technology. And it just empowers you to get the transparency that
you want. But don't think that it's you know, it's a direct sourcing tool where you have a lot of overhead, and you need to sort of read through all of these things. That's that's not the case, we actually quite comparable to a staffing firm, just that we do everything through technology. Yeah, it's a little different. And it's something that I've really
enjoyed. And, you know, being able to put a project out there, I do feel empowered, I feel empowered, because I can put it out there and I get the emails that alert me when a genius comes in. So it's it's really a beneficial tool. What kind of freelancers do you have on the on the platform?
We basically cover all what we call digital skills, right. And we do acknowledge that that's very vague. But it's, it's, you know, from your graphic designer, to your, you know, motion design artist, to ScrumMasters to, you know, front end developers to Python developers, anything that can be done remotely, and requires sort of a high level of skill. That's really what we're focused on. We love that sector, because we see total digital savviness on both sides, right?
Our clients are very digitally savvy, because they request these type of talents. And the talent just loves to work that way. You know, a talent is don't want to get a phone call, you know, from a number they don't know, yeah, recruiter asking them, Hey, would you be willing to work in Chicago for the next four months? It's not, it's not how they think anymore.
That's awesome. I so, you know, in doing some reading lately, you know, Forbes has noted 2021 as the freelance revolution. Do you agree with this statement?
I think, you know, what's a revolution?
Right.
That's, you know, that's, that's interesting. I think the are we are we toppling an existing structure that people don't want to live in anymore? If that's the definition of a revolution, then? I think, absolutely. something fundamentally has changed talents have been empowered and has gotten a taste for freelancing. And is, therefore embracing it. And the same has happened on the company side.
Right.
They have seen Oh, wow, you know, people can work remotely. Once I have the systems in place, it's actually fine. I can do this. So I think the trust into freelancing has grown. You know, is it revolutionary? Or is it an acceleration of an existing trend?
Right.
I don't know.
You know, and thinking about this, too, with a lot of businesses making a little bit of a pivot, do you think that the workplace community can be affected in a negative or positive way? Or like you said, Do you find that it's just evolving in a different way?
I don't, I think it's a very subjective question.
Yeah.
I think there's, there's something to be said about hanging out with your colleagues.
Yeah.
Getting to know them personally, I think that is that is very difficult to do via zoom.
Yeah.
I don't know whether this is a distinction between, you know, freelancing versus full time employees nowadays anymore.
Right.
It's, everybody's working through zoom. So I feel that, you know, those lines have gotten a little bit blurry. But that would be you know, that will be something where it said the work, you know, plays culture may have changed because you're not bonding with people as much. I don't think that's a phenomenon that sort of results out of the, you know, freelancers, you know, being more more prominent, I think it's, it's more it's more of a pandemic, really.
Right, just the change in, in everything. It's, it's the new reality, so to speak. That's out They're now for businesses. So very curious, Marlon to learn about what your top five tips on how to leverage freelancers are.
I think number one must be, understand that this is inevitable, and you need to commit to it. Allow everyone in the organization to leverage freelancers, make it make it a strategic priority for you know, you as a leader and your team. That's number one.
Okay.
Number two, is his mind the overhead gap? Don't Don't put it on the people that you work with don't, you know, historically, they haven't done this for full time employees, there was HR to help them with everything. Right? Why should it be any different for freelancing? I'm not suggesting that HR should manage all of it.
But I'm saying acknowledge that there's overhead, acknowledge that finding freelancers, you know, managing their timesheets, and their track records and their performance reviews, and managing compliance and paying is not something that your team should do. There needs to be a solution for this. And there's technology, why do you have a dedicated team that doesn't, which obviously, I would not recommend,
Right?
Thirdly, mind the compliance, okay. It's not a black box. It is, you know, decently understood, there's providers that can do this very, very well. They can do it so well, indeed, that they indemnify you. Right? Which I would also highly recommend. There's no there's no need to run a risk, even though companies want it and talent wants it.
Yeah.
It does not mean that the government's is fine with it.
Right.
Make sure that you get that, you know.
Yeah.
I think that that that is important. And then, you know, I have to say that sort of working in their field, embrace technology.
Yes.
This is not something that needs to be done in a professional services way. But there's certain things that that that have to be done manually, which is probably things like your tax return,
Right.
Your you know, accounting, all of maybe, right, for this one, don't don't create an internal team that sources, freelancers, runs the payroll for them manages their performance reviews, this is you know, you're you're embracing the revolution, but you're using the old means to do that, that that doesn't make any sense. I don't know. Was that five already?
I think that was five.
That was five?
I think. So.
I have one more, give me one more.
Let's bring it, I'll take another one.
Don't Don't I think for us don't treat freelancers, that much differently to your internal employees, empower them, you know, give them performance reviews, it's good for them, it's good for you, you want to preserve that knowledge within the organization. So you can remember, oh, we have a project coming up. We have this one excellent. freelancer, let's reach out to her, see whether
she's available. If you can get to that point, it's almost like turning to a colleague internally, right, you're removing that friction and you make it a liquid workforce that can scale up and down without sort of what's historically been associated with. No, need to go out and find someone.
Find somebody new again, which is something that's something that I, I strongly believe is making sure your freelancers and your your full time employees are all treated the same. Because, you know, I've known so many freelancers that felt like the black sheep. And, you know, it's important to make sure that all the employees are especially as there's so much remote work going on, we're all in it together. And you create that, that partnership
with a freelancer. And you can keep going back to that freelancer, you know, you have those, they have those skills for you. And that partnership. And you know, if if they're treated well, of course, they're going to put your projects ahead of maybe somebody else that's calling them and says, Oh, I have a project coming up in two
weeks. You know, and I feel that that's a big one for companies is to really, whether you've got freelancers, or or you know, full time employees, everybody that you're bringing into the organization need to be on the same level and needs to be on the same playing field, because you're all in it together working on the same projects together. So I really, really think that that's a great tip as
well, Marlon definitely. So how can I just because I want to give WorkGenius, a little plug over here, how can people reach out to work genius? You know, what are the steps that somebody takes to get some more information?
Absolutely. Reach out to us, you know, via the website, schedule a demo.
Yeah.
Reach out via LinkedIn. You know, none of this is like everything can be exploratory as well. But we, we have sort of a team that helps our clients embrace that change as well. We work for some of the largest organizations on the planet, managing that transition. And we know it seems scary, it's something that some people haven't done, they think, and all of these organizations have 1000s and 1000s, of freelancers that they only work with, just in a very
unstructured way. So I think it's not as it's not as nascent as, as you may think, you know, find someone that can guide you through sort of structuring that for you a little bit more.
Takes a lot of of the fear away too, I think and a lot of the burden away, being able to utilize WorkGenius as as a go to for freelancers. And speaking from experience. So!
I appreciate it!
Of course, thank you, Marlon, so much for taking time out of your day to day to speak with us. And, you know, I'm really looking forward to continuing our relationship at DefineTalent with you guys and getting WorkGenius out there too.
Fantastic. We're happy to partner with you. It's a great partnership. Thank you for thanks for having me on.
Thanks again. Marlin. Have a great day. Okay.
Thank you. Bye bye.
All right, bye. We are DefinedTalent, a defined logic service coming to you at Top5. Make it a great day.