Hey guys, welcome back to Top5 brought to you by to DefinedTalent. We are a results driven service working with clients to connect them with quality talent as well as working to make an impact within the recruiting industry. We talk straight about today's professional world with real world professionals, experts in recruitment, job seekers and business owners alike. Have a question for us. Send it in and you might spur our next conversation. I'm Tara Thurber, Director of Talent Innovation.
And joining me today to discuss their Top5 Tips for Thriving Business is to DefinedLogics Partner, Mike Simon, and Business Development Partner, Cory Kazar. Hey, guys, how are you today?
Hey, Tara, great. How are you?
Good. Thank you. Thanks for joining.
Right. My pleasure. Thanks for inviting us.
Yes, excited to be here.
Awesome. So guys, let's just kick this off. Why don't we dive in and give us a little background on yourselves in your personal history with DefinedLogic?
Yeah, I'm happy to go first. So Mike Simon partner here at DefinedLogic I've been with DefinedLogic for nine years, almost nine years now. Ultimately, culminating in being a partner, one of the owners of DefinedLogic. And I started nine years ago, after being a CIO for a large logistics company and ever after having worked for IBM for many years, really looking to get back to core consulting, meaning, doing great work for clients, being very close to the value proposition for clients.
And consulting at that time is really, you know, it's a great way to be able to do that. So when I joined DefinedLogic, that was my my mission to you know, sort of start a principle consulting practice, which we did for still do today, frankly. But that's a little bit of my history with DefinedLogic.
Yeah, I've actually actually been in DefinedLogic going on 10 years, a little bit more senior than Mike in that regards. A lot less senior when it comes to age, but who's counting?
Is this a comedy show?
Actually, prior to DefinedLogic, I was working at a Fintech startup in New York had an opportunity that came along, living in New Jersey at the time, of a small consulting IT consulting firm at that time, looking to, to add to their sales team came on board, thought it was a great opportunity to stop commuting to New York, and I ended up falling in love with the company and everything about it. And here I am a decade later, new leadership through through Mike Simon and loving every minute of it.
Awesome, so great to hear just a little bit of that background. And now for the two of you, what did you see and DefinedLogic that really made you both want to transition the company from the traditional consulting firm that started to DefinedLogic into a digital product agency?
I guess for me, it was a couple things. And it sounds a little cliche, but you know, the first thing is, is the people you know, what I witnessed during my time as a consultant is that we worked on a variety of projects. But no matter what we worked on, the delivery quality was first rate. Absolutely amazing, you know, satisfied customers satisfied employees. Phenomenally good quality work. But what we also noticed is that, you know, the world the world was changing.
And we saw more and more customers shifting towards more and more platform centric solutions, whether that's CRM through Salesforce and a HubSpot, for example, and service related things that we now see around that, whether it's marketing, automation platforms, development platforms, we saw less and less, you know, sort of custom development work being done on premise versus solution based, platform based solutions, I should say, where they're leaning into the investment that
someone else has made in those platforms for speed to market for maintainability for op-x versus cap-x, and so forth. So recognizing that trend, we said to ourselves, hey, we need to lean into it, right? We need to sort of follow where we're where our clients are going. But in studying what it would be what's necessary for us from a services perspective, to ensure our clients can be successful with with what they're looking to do, that really sort of started our pivot as a relates to what we do
as DefinedLogic today. So you know, pre packaged services, if you will privatize services, if you, but all in line with what's necessary for clients to be successful with the platform implementations that they're looking to do. And with the initiatives around those, like marketing strategies, and sales strategies, and so forth.
A lot of it comes down to passion to at the end of the day, I think our pivot to a digital product agency allowed our people to be more passionate about what they're delivering, because of the ownership of the product, from beginning to end and seeing it fully through where you don't necessarily always see that from the consulting side, as you're putting the pieces of a project that's owned by an organization and managed by an organization, we're now we're being brought in
as a true partner to work alongside these organizations to make sure that we are implementing and developing and creating a product that makes sense for them in their company.
I love that. And I like the I like where you were exploring the ownership and then coming in as as being more of a fully rounded partnership almost.
Yeah.
You know, for for our listeners out there. Can either of you define what a digital product agency is?
Yeah, we, we recognized in working with our clients, but there are lots of different types of agencies out there. They're brand agencies, marketing agencies, advertising agencies, media agencies, etc. talent agencies, even oftentimes, what we'll see is a given client is using multiple agencies at the same time, for a, you know, an integrated purpose. But what they see is that those agencies are not
integrated. They're separate companies that have separate objectives, trying to glue all that together, comes with its own challenges, dissatisfied clients as a result. And so what we concluded is that, you know, a, we wanted to not compete with others who are not really our competitors, right? And what does that mean? And then also, you know, sort of carve out a name for ourselves or category for ourselves, I should say, that we can, that we could we
could own. So digital product agency product is at the center of that, meaning the engineering, the implementation, the technical smarts around that, the investment results, the returns around that. And so while we do everything that I mentioned, we do brand, we do marketing, we do sales, we do advertising, we do creative, we do analytics, we do all of those things that multiple agencies
would otherwise do. But we do so in the context of the core thing that our clients are looking to, to implement, which is a digital product, to help them engage with customers, with partners with employees, to drive measurable results in the marketplace, etc. So that's what makes us a digital product agency. That's what makes us unique from what we hear from our clients and our partners.
There's nobody else out there that thinks like you guys do that talks like you guys do, that has the breadth of capability that you guys have to really be, you know, it's cliche, but really be sort of a one stop shop for everything that they need to do in the measurable success of their digital initiatives.
That kind of goes into my next question of how does DefinedLogic stand out in the crowd? All these added? Certainly not, I guess we wouldn't call them added services. But it's that one stop shop, including talent services in there to, you know, as leaders, what is the market, like, out there for DefinedLogic? And how are we standing out? I mean, if we're, if DefinedLogic is really its own place. Are we standing out differently in the market today?
Or is it really the soul? Let's start I'm looking for the soul landing for DefinedLogic. And then we get to kind of keep exploring that.
Yeah, I mean, we are we are we're, we're finding that we're differentiated without trying to be differentiated.
Yeah.
You know, so for example, when we engage with clients, or with our partners, Salesforce, HubSpot, and so forth, how it is that we initially engage with them and with our clients, is already differentiated for them. And we hear that we hear that from them all the time. So for example, we start with an experience discovery workshop. And it's kind of our crutch, if you will, for learning about in a visual
way in a collaborative way. What it is that the clients trying to achieve, will facilitate in these days, a digital blank canvas, a blank whiteboard, relative to experience and what it is that the client is trying to accomplish from an experience standpoint and just, you know, kind of always centering ourselves back on that particular objective in that position. In the language, so experience every touchpoint your client is going to go through.
How's that touch point being delivered today in the future? How do we measure the value of that touch point? How do we assess the your current ability to deliver on that touch point, you know, your, your, your current mechanisms versus your aspirational mechanisms. And when we do that, it naturally brings forward the brand, content, and creative and engineering and analytics on everything necessary to deliver on that experience roadmap, if
you will. And by virtue of that, we're already touching on what all you know, what multiple agencies would otherwise be touching upon. But in a way that's different in a way that's integrated around the customer. And, again, that sounds cliche
in and of itself, as well. But when we, when we focus solely on what it is that you're trying to achieve for your customers and their experience today and future, then, you know, I would say the rest of it sort of takes care of itself, as it relates to the clients conclusion, but I can do all of this with one partner, I don't need to have five different partners to make that happen.
And we're uniquely positioned from a size and capability standpoint to still be boutique from a relationship standpoint, but enterprise from a delivery standpoint, working with enterprise clients across the board, from some of the largest pharmaceutical companies and fortune 500 to startups, but we can still bring that boutique, I know you, you know me, we know your business approach to every one of our clients, because that is what
we're rooted in. That's our foundation from, from our consulting days, brought over to our digital product agency days, and really help you, as we like to say define what the possible is, we like to define the possible and work together to really become part of your brand part of your team, and make sure that their that results in success and really being able to be there from a name basis throughout the whole process.
Yeah.
I also one thing that kind of struck me too is having this, this landing for DefinedLogic, it's also so much is is just as important as having the right team players in on this as well, to be able to play with everybody in the in on the playground, so to speak, but also and grow together to be successful for each client. I think that that transition, you know, instead of it being just the one offs, being able to transition and having that team as a whole at DefinedLogic is
super important. Would you guys say, you know, in talking about the transition into a digital product agency using air quotes there, but the team being in the forefront and being on the same page and working with clients? Do you feel that clients are more appreciative and will stop working with other partners, and really be able to hone in on just working with DefinedLogic? Do you? Do you feel that clients are okay with that? Or do do they struggle with letting that go?
I do feel like it's there. But we have to gain that that trust and prove it through our work. And at the same time, you know, I'm not necessarily saying that we want to always get rid of other partners, obviously, it's great for
business one way so far. But um, being able to work seamlessly with other partners is what's part of being successful, whether it's channel partner, whether it's, you know, underlying technology, whether it's a, an agency that specializes in one specific area that might have more specialty in that area than DefinedLogic does, but being able to work seamlessly and integrated with that team together. Is is, is I think, what brings ultimate
success for the client. And at the end of the day, that's what we care about. I think that's one of the differentiators that it's so cliche and and so I'm trying to find the word, but it's almost like lovey, if you will, something that you would see in a Hallmark card. But um, you know, one thing I noticed throughout my course of working with the DefinedLogic is that we care, our employees care, our company cares, you know, we're not the biggest company in the
world. We don't have a massive array of clients, you know, underneath our portfolio. But we care about each and every one of
our clients. And I think that that care, from the leadership from the folks that are working on the accounts, from the project managers, to the UX team, to the developers, to the creative, to analytics to everybody that's involved and the relationship that's built on that and caring about the success of our clients, not just their company, but the people that are working for the company for their career is what really makes us unique compared to a lot of organizations that I've
either worked with in the past or have worked alongside of and I love that I absolutely love about us.
I think it's a huge a huge value. And it's also being able to, you know, one thing that I noticed to DefinedLogic is you're open to other partnerships. And and it's expanding, it's about playing with everybody that has that same vision and coming together to lift everybody up together as a whole as a group unify.
Yeah, I would just add to that, we have certain ways of working that are proven, we have a point of view that we call the digital universe. And it shows how it is and why it is that brand connects with content connects with creative connects with UX connects with clients, analytics, and so forth. And we have processes that we ourselves go through, you know, when we're performing all of those roles, and how all of those things integrate together, again, in the context of something that's
meaningful to a client. And if you're in a marketing campaign, for example, a marketing calendar, for example. So while we're totally open to working with other agencies that fill one of those planets in the universe, if you will, we also suggest that it needs to be done in a way where we collectively are integrated on behalf of the
client. And that always works out, you know, I can't think of an instance where someone has said, No, you know, we want them to work their way and you work your way and so forth, which would raise all kinds of red flags for us. But, you know, to the extent that we can all sort of work in an integrated process in a form, then, you know, it tends to tends to work out really well.
Love it. And I know, too, we're celebrating DefinedLogic celebrating 20 years, this year, and, you know, huge changes and to go and shift over the past couple years to where you're at today. You know, what kind of kind of tips with within this would you give to others for the shift and the transition, and really this growth that's happening now celebrating 20 years at DefinedLogic?
Yeah, I mean, I would say that, you know, we're learning every day, that's probably a good thing, right? I mean, being open to learn every day. And as a function of listening to your customers, understanding where they're going, monitoring industries, understanding where they're
going, and so forth. But beyond that, I think just having strategic clarity, and again, we challenge ourselves all the time around us, but, but having strategic clarity of who you are in the marketplace, what you stand for, what you offer, why it's valuable to a client, how you constitute that, from a services standpoint, how you can describe it in an elevator pitch to clients, but also to employees. The last thing you want is to have clarity in the
marketplace. But you know, nobody inside your own organization really understands what you do for a living. So that level of clarity is is just super, super important. Because it drives everything, it drives your go to market messaging, it drives your segmentation, it drives your marketing approach that drives your value prop description, from a sales standpoint, etc, etc. But it also, you know, ideally allows you to bring in the work that you want, but avoid the work you
don't want. That's one of the biggest issues that I would say young entrepreneurs or startup companies face is losing strategic clarity and taking on work for the purposes of, hey, we need revenue, we need cash flow, and so forth. But allowing that to take you out of your lane and take you down a road,
that's not your road. And ultimately getting you to a point where you lose control your ability to you know, find your lane in the marketplace and to you know, develop the levers for yourself of growth, to be able to, you know, do what you're trying to do, if that makes sense.
Yeah, no, that makes total sense. And I think too, I like the I like the where you're going with being able to stay in your lane, you know, talking to a lot of other entrepreneurs, they they're pulling work just to get work and spinning their wheels, and then they're losing what that focus really is right. So I definitely agree that it's it's having that focus, it's having that strategy in place and continuing to grow, but also failing along the way and learning from those failures too.
Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, if you have, if you have your strategy aligned front to back.
Yeah.
And it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy in terms of delivering the kind of work that you want, and help you fend off the kind of work that you don't want and I don't mean
that in a negative way. But you know, when you take on a promise object that doesn't line up with everything that the organization is designed to, to, to cater for trained to cater for you, you've just introduced so much friction into your machine that you may not recognize until you get to a point where people aren't happy, you're delivering bad quality, customers are churning on you, and so forth. And then looking back, you can understand why
it's happening. But, you know, I would say that's one of the most important things we can do.
That's awesome. Cory, do you have any top five tips you'd like to share as well?
I do. I jotted them down prior to this. Have them prepared.
Alright.
I think, you know, for me from a top five, from a business standpoint to be successful is and in no particular order, but communication with both clients and internally. You know, I think one of the things that Mike did when he, when he took the company over in 2020, was really extended communication. And I think he's been extremely successful in the last few years, especially with everything that's been going on,
you know, with COVID. And the craziness that we've all lived in and are not even hybrid, but fully remote approach that we've had to take that, you know, as everybody else, we expect it to be two weeks, and now it's going on two and a half, three years.
But I think it's key, I think communication is key accountability, again, internally and externally, for your roles, and for what you're responsible for, is just, you know, having that accountability, knowing what you're responsible for, knowing what you're prideful for having pride in your company, being another pillar of my top 10 pride in the work that you're doing pride for the company that you're working with, you know, that all correlates to marketing, which is pillar
number four, being able to explain who you are, what you do, why you do it, and being able to explain that to your employees as well as to your customers, you could do this in a million different ways. And it could be in large scales, approaches that cost millions and millions and millions to market to, or it could be in just a small who are we approach and really define what are what we are and what is our what is our core passions and, and competencies throughout the
company. But being able to define that in a way that everybody resonates with is, is key. And then my last one, which really isn't a great one, but I've been on a Yellowstone kick the last two or three weeks. And if you if you do watch the show, you know Beth says this usually after every time she finishes a cocktail, if you're going to do something, do it right. And then she has three or four more. But I think that's a great quote.
And I think it I think it just correlates with so much not only in business, but in life, if you're going to be spending that much of your time doing something, take the time to do it. Right. I mean, you don't need to juggle a million things if you can do 2345 things, right?
Yeah.
It's so much better than being able to do a million things or 100 things. Half, right, well, you know, for the PG version of the podcast, but those would be you know, communication, accountability, marketing pride. And, you know, aligning to accountability is if you're going to do something, make sure you're doing it, right.
I love it. I love all the tips that you guys are sharing today. And I think it's important for our listeners to hear this. I mean, 20 years is a long time. So and here's to 20 more years for DefinedLogic. You know, and it's it's thriving, it's changing, it's moving. And and it's really awesome to be a part of as well. So thank you, guys.
Thank you. Can I just add one more thing?
Absolutely.
So talent, we think about DefinedTalent, right? But talent, my number 1,2,3,4, and five are take care of your people. If you take care of your people, they'll take care of you and your clients, you being DefinedLogic, the company.
Yeah.
And it sounds easy. It sounds simple. But when you don't do that, then as your number 1,2,3,4, or five guiding principle, then what you'll see, you know, as a trailing indicator is maybe unhappy employees, maybe not the best quality work that you'd like to have turnover of employees and clients. I'm very happy to say that DefinedLogic has virtually zero turnover.
Yep.
Zero. I mean,
It's amazing.
It's amazing. You know, 20 years, we have employee number one still works for the company. And you know, so I mean, to have nearly zero turnover says an awful lot about a company that that really takes care of its people first and foremost. And when they do that, they'll take care of a community, they'll take care of clients, and then all of the other bad things that would otherwise be happening to you in terms of churn and cost and so forth. You don't have to deal
with that. So it's it's maybe overly simplistic, but you know, I think that's one thing we've done really, really well at DefinedLogic, the founders, you know, lead with that sort of, basic pillar of the culture and we've we've perpetuated that maybe in taking the next step to Cory's point, but that would be my number 1,2,3,4, and 5 tip.
I love it. And you can you can see it too when you speak to employees that to DefinedLogic or when you see what they're doing. I mean, they're excited to share things on social media they're talking about, it's not just a job that they're coming, they're going to, which I think is important for all professionals. It's not a job, it's a career. It's this lifestyle that we're in and even shifting to being fully remote.
That's a huge, that's a huge shift for an entire company to do, and everybody to be successful at home, but also in a collaborative group. And I can see how that shift has been successful for DefinedLogic. So it's, um, it starts at the top and it interweaves through it all.
Yeah, yeah. I totally agree. I mean, it's when we pivoted to home, our culture kicked in. And it had us have empathy and compassion for every single individual, as individuals recognizing that what each of us was going through was different. And older people empty nesters like me, for example, very different than people with young families and kids at home now, being homeschooled and parents trading off and you know, what do we need to do to take care of people first?
Yeah.
If we do that everything else takes care of itself. And it did it did in spades. So, you know, I think that's just that's good advice for any any company that's starting up or any company at any stage and, you know, their their journey.
Yeah. All around. I love the tips. I love everything that you guys have brought to the table today. Really appreciate you guys joining and I'm looking forward to some 20 year celebrations, but to what the future holds. It's very exciting.
Thank you, Tara.
Thank you, Mike and Cory, for joining me today.
Thanks for having us.
We are DefinedTalent coming to you at Top5. Make it a great day.