(Welcome back to Top5 brought to you by to DefinedTalent. We are a results driven service working with clients to connect them with quality talent as well as working to make an impact within the recruiting industry. We talk straight about today's professional world with real world professionals, experts in recruitment, job seekers and business owners alike. Have a question for us. Send it in and you might spur our next conversation. I'm Tara Thurber, Director of Talent Innovation.
And along with me for the ride today is our very on Talent Partner Elle Bright We are so excited to also have a special guest Allison Cheston, career advisor with her own private practice out of New York City, but she works with people globally. She's here today to discuss her Top5 Tips for Interviewing Candidates with Neuro Diverse and Mental Health Challenges. Hey, Alison, thanks for joining us today.
Hello, Tara. It's so nice to be here. Thanks for having me. Absolutely.
So I'm going to dive right in Alison, walk us through your career coaching journey, and how you ended at Alison Cheston.
(laughs) I know it's kind of obvious that's how I would end, right?
(laughs)
So my background is actually International Marketing and Executive Search. So I worked in in the branding and design world for about 15 years. And I had for years, I had my own company. And then I worked in executive search for another four years. And while I was working in executive search, which I thought, of course was going to be my dream job, I realized that what I was really interested in wasn't so much working to help large companies find their next CFO, CMO.
Yeah.
...but really worked with the individuals to help them figure out what they wanted to do with their lives. And so that was like a huge epiphany for me, because I'd always, was always really interested in careers, it was just something I was curious about, I would, you know, be at a party talking to someone and just ask them about what they did, I would really want to know, sort of all the details. And it was just - I just always
found it fascinating. I've always loved the business world and just been really fascinated by you know, what people do during it just in their days, you know, what does it look like to be you and your job during the day. So I already have a Master's, but it's an International Education. So not relevant, not really related. So I went back and I got just to have a credentials. So you know, people would just say, Oh, this is obvious - This is what you do. I got a certificate in
Career Planning. from NYU. I hung up my shingle while I was still working in Search. And then from there, I just started getting clients and little by little I grew my practice. And that was close to 18 years ago.
Wow!
Yeah. So it's been, it's been a long and exciting ride. I work with people of all stripes to do all different kinds of things. But what I've really noticed over the course of the last couple of years, specifically COVID...
Right.
Everybody, almost to a person has some kind of mental health issue when they come to see me. And I'm certainly not a therapist of any kind, but, you know, figuring out what you want to do is a very emotional process. It's not something that people take lightly. It's your life.
Right.
And as you know, of course, you know, Tara - you spend most of your life at work, right?
Yea (laughs).
You want to you want to make a good, yeah. And, and there's just so much pressure on young people today, especially because, you know, college, most people, not most people, I would say something like, I think it's something around 75% of people go to college today. They don't necessarily finish but they definitely start. And when I was growing up, it was something more like 40 - 45%
Wow.
And it cost that much to go to college compared to compared to today.
Yeah! (laughs)
It's just ridiculous - like the price of a house. So, there's so much pressure on students as they're coming out of college, what will you do? How will you pay your bills? It's just so expensive.
Yeah...
There's just a lot of pressure in general, of course, we're all bold faced reasons that we all know. But, you know, people come in they're, they're lost, they are looking for guidance. And they're also looking for like a lot of very personal handholding. And I provide that. So I don't think it's an accident that I get people who are sometimes they're struggling, what I have been working on is helping them tell their story to an employer in a way that honors if you will, their process.
Mmm hmm.
And when they've struggled to consider I'm not saying this is across the board. And this is why we're having this conversation. Right? To consider telling your story in a really authentic way so that employers understand what's really happened. And assuming that you've got tools in your toolbox that you're now able to utilize, that will help you do a better job telling that story in such a way that it resonates. And potentially, you know, you
get hired. So the I have lots of questions for people, employers, talent acquisition, folks, people like you guys, what's the best way forward for these, especially young people who are struggling? Does it make sense to reveal how - what's happened to you? You know, obviously, in a way that makes sense to the employment story.
Yeah.
Or should you as since I've talked to a lot of people at this point, and I've been talking to some employers my age, and they often have a very old school attitude about it.
Mmm hmm.
You never ever say a thing about an issue that you've had.
Right?
So I I'm very curious, I want to I want to know more about what people in talent acquisition are saying. Um, yeah. So that's why you and I started having this conversation.
Right, right. And I mean, I can say, I feel that it can be a case by case for individuals, and also case by case for roles that they're applying to and companies. There are still a lot of companies that go by the old school mentality of Zip-it, and keep on going, and you put on that shield and you charge forth. But I feel now and maybe it's just that empathetic side of me that is like rooted in me, I feel it's important for employers and for candidates to tell their
story. Maybe not in all detail. But I think if it's something that could come up, or if it's something that a lot of times their story makes them instead of it thinking that it's doing something negatively to them, it's actually something that is, hey, this is me, this is who I am. And this is why I would be great for your company. With all the positives and negatives, we all come to the table with positives and negatives. And I think your negatives, your weaknesses can turn into your
strengths. And it all also depends, you know, hoping that that candidate or individual can really know who they are well enough to realize that any thing that they're struggling with or anything that is challenging for them, that they can turn it into that positive and they're not in more like a self-driven downward spiral. Because in today's day and age, I mean, especially after COVID and going through the past 2 & 1/2 years, there's
a lot of challenges. And I think that it's just the beginning for some people. I think that even though people are out again, and trying to get back to this new reality, I'm not going to say get back to the way it was because it's NEVER gonna get back to the way it was. We have
to embrace this new reality. We have to embrace this new job market we have to embrace everything that we are now walking into and the future is really ours because, you know, technology has really skyrocketed and has transformed so many different businesses and ways of communicating on top of just innovation that's really
become more enhanced. So I think for individuals it is important to acknowledge your struggles, and to not hide behind them, I wouldn't say you need to necessarily put up a big sign and say, Hey, this is what you know. But I, I do think it's important. And I think it's very important for employers to be holding a safe place for employees and/or potential candidates. Because everybody
has a story to tell. And, I would say, years ago, it was don't say anything, that'll be a red flag, and the company will move on, but now, it's almost like we need to take those weaknesses as strengths to show this is who this person is. And I think that that's really important nowadays.
I feel like vulnerability has so often been, you're afraid to be vulnerable, because you don't want to be perceived as weak or timid. But I think vulnerability and kind of expressing who you are. And what kind of makes you tick and away is a way to control the narrative, especially in an interview, like, this is how I learned or this is how I perceive things, or this is how I'm able to function and get through different problems or
resolutions. And I think that just makes you more confident and comfortable and being able to explain how you experience things. So it's about not thinking of that as being weak, but thinking of that as being a way to make yourself comfortable in that situation, or in an interview with someone. Being able to control the narrative and be vulnerable, I think is super important, because you don't want to get into a role where then you're having to pretend to be someone that you're not.
Absolutely.
Which is huge.
Right. I think that's a great point. I think that you could argue that it's a good idea to show that vulnerability in an interview setting, because you don't probably want to work for a company that doesn't respect you for that vulnerability. Right?
Yeah.
Exactly Right.
So I was talking to someone I know who has a big Foundation. And she's my age. She said, the number one thing we want is for people not to cause problems.
(laughs)
We don't want she said, I would never suggest saying anything, unless it's blatantly obvious, because why would I hire you? If you're just going to cause problems? And I? Of course I can. I'm not allowed to quote her (laughs). But that that is a real, it's a pervasive attitude.
Absolutley.
And it's certainly among - it's a baby boomer attitude. I may also extend it, you know, certain Gen/Gen X, it is not necessarily a Millennial attitude. But I really think it's kind of a case by case basis.
Yeah.
I think it can be used as a very positive force. As long as you've not only acknowledged these issues, but you've developed tools to combat problems that can come from them.
Look at some articles on like neurodiversity, and things like that. That was one of the big things that they talked about. It's, it's not a problem. It's an opportunity. And I think we talk about being able to kind of use those words or interchange those words to
have a more positive spin. But in terms of like diversity and inclusion, we think about bringing in just diversity of thought, and someone looking at a problem from a different angle, or being able to bring different ideas to the table on how to tackle a problem or have come to a resolution, like I said earlier, and I think that's so interesting to think about, as somebody with ADHD, and being able to kind of dissect those different things and think outside of the box to come up
with solutions. I think, again, that's not a problem. Although my diagnosis may be something that's outside the box, but the way that I think and the creativity that I often bring to the table is going to be completely different from someone who is, you know, doesn't have neurodiversity. So that's just an interesting way of thinking of kind of opportunity as opposed to problem.
Yeah. So YES, that is completely true. And there are certain there are certain issues like neurodiverse challenges that so - ADHD is one, autism as long as you know, it's more on the lower end of the spectrum, those can also be - the flip side of that is yes, they can be strengths, as you say, like ADHD and dyslexia, people can be often more creative more outside the box, there are lots of different ways
they can be more visual. There's lots pluses there, people who are on the spectrum can often be able to concentrate beautifully and can be very - they get very focused on one thing, they have a lot of expertise in one particular area, they're often very high on the, on the sort of left brain, that's the Math Science end of the spectrum.
Mmm hmm.
Having said that, to me, seems fairly obvious. I mean, I was looking at Procter and Gamble has an entire, as an employer brand, and it's devoted to people who have no diversity, and they're actually looking to hire people who are on the spectrum.
Wow.
I'll send you the page, and so Morgan Stanley's doing this, JPMorgan...
Yup.
This is this idea of trying to be inclusive, all that, but I have some clients who have language processing issues. So that means that when they speak, cognitively, their, they're fine. But it takes them a long time to understand what you're saying, they often have to listen to recordings a couple of times and take notes simultaneously, after, for example, a lecture or if they're sitting in a meeting or whatever. When they speak, it takes them a very long time to
get their point across. So I feel in that kind of situation, they have to say something.
Yeah!
Right? Otherwise, they're the, the interviewer is just going to jump in and fill in the blanks and get frustrated. So you know, we were talking about, like, would you just preempt the interviewer by saying, I just want to let you know, before we get started, I have a language processing disorder. Cognitively, I'm perfectly fine.
I just know that it's going to take me a bit longer to answer your question, I may make a little joke about it, and then move on, because that person already wants to know what's wrong, and they're not inclined to hire you if you don't if you don't explain how you can do the job, including this disorder. So, you guys agree with me?
Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Before we go forward, I just wanted Allison, if you could just explain the term "neurodiverse" to the audience, just in case any listeners out there don't know.
So neurodiverse is actually a huge catch all umbrella term, where it's a little frustrating, because it doesn't actually distinguish between a learning issue like dyslexia.
Right.
And a mental health issue, like depression. So that, to me, it's it's just it's such a broad term.
Yeah.
A lot of people who have no learning issues whatsoever, have depression and anxiety. I mean, it's like the number one thing, right? And that actually brings up another question, if you have been out of work, if you've got a gap in your resume, because you had to take off a lot of time for anxiety and depression. Do you explain? Do you explain why you have that gap on your resume? You know that's a question I've
been asking people. My personal feeling is that you should explain it, and then you should explain also that you've treated the issue and that you're fine.
Yeah. I agree with that. I think it's important if, again, I still think it's a case by case too, depending on who you're speaking with, but there are lots of gaps in people's resumes. And if that was the case, again, I see that as a strength in somebody that has been able to go through that and then has kind of taken charge of that or been able to move through it in a way whether it was however they've, whatever steps they've taken, right?
Right.
I definitely think that it it's just another strength to show how an individual has dealt with the situation, gotten through it and has successfully moved forward because it's not about covering it up. The more you cover something up, the worse it can get. It's not a matter of going around it or over it, it's walking through it every single
step of the way. And coming out through that door, being able to say to yourself, I'm ready to get back into this job market, and tell your story, don't be afraid to tell your story. Because, like we said earlier, you're not going to want to work for somebody that doesn't accept you for who you are, and what you, as an individual, bring to
the professional table. And especially over the past the past couple of years, I think there's a lot of people that are a) they didn't know what was going on, or b) they are terrified to tell anybody. And that brings us back to even vulnerability, being able to acknowledge and accept and move through, and allow that vulnerability to hold you up and to be an amazing strength for your next path that you're about to take professionally.
I'm a big believer, and when it comes to interviewing, really with anything, even if it's just your skill set, it's not about what you say, it's about how you say it. Are you saying it with confidence? Are you saying it as somebody who, who is knowledgeable about their situation and can address it in a way that makes sense and makes everybody in the room on the same page? I think that that is the most important thing, like you said is? Do you bring up something like that? Absolutely.
If you feel comfortable, you feel like you can articulate it in a way that comes across as positive and I think there's no reason to feel like you need to hide things. Just finding a way that makes you feel comfortable and confident in expressing that is the most important thing.
I think Ellie, I think that's a really good point. You know, I do think you have to proceed with caution, always. And I think we're all saying that, but also the thing is that during COVID, what I've found, and tell me if you are finding this as well, I feel like the last couple of years, employers give you a pass, they don't really ask you a lot of questions about, you know what you were doing. Because there were so many people who just couldn't they couldn't get a job.
Yeah.
They should have probably gone and done a boot camp or something. But a lot of couldn't get jobs at all. And so
Right (laughs). are they really going to go drill you on what you were doing? So in that case, unless it bolsters your story and makes you a more attractive candidate... Mmm hmm...
Maybe you don't bring up the fact that you were in treatment, you were you were having a lot of anxiety. Maybe you just don't mention that, because you could argue that that was more circumstantial than it was situation.
Because of the situation. Yeah, I'm can see that too. And, you know, I guess, Allison, a question for you with some of your clients into like today. How are you working with them through all of this at this point?
Well, but job market has been amazing!
I know! (laughs) That's a good plus. Right?
Yeah! I mean, really, like starting last fall it totally turned around and got so good. I mean, I would say like, during 2020, I think two of my clients got jobs, and nobody else got jobs. And it was it was so hard if someone went back to school, which was probably a good plan - Anybody who graduated, you know, in 2019, or 2020, it was just it was terrible.
Yeah.
But so it's been, it's been great. I mean, it's been a seller's market. So as things start to turn the question also is are employers going to be less prone to hire people who have issues?
Right? Yeah.
Because, you know, all things being equal, don't you want to hire the person who presents as someone who's completely straightforward and has no issues whatsoever? So I the jury's out.
Yeah.
Like we'll have to see. I mean, I had people this year two people who one has has a learning processing disorder. The other one has quite severe ADHD. And neither of them had really had, like, official jobs. And they were, you know, they were in their mid to late 20s. They both got great jobs.
That's amazing.
So, you know, I mean, hopefully part of that is because we figured out a good way to tell their story. And they had a lot of a lot of attributes, positive attributes, but the other is that we're in such a strong market. So, yeah, it'll be interesting. What about you? What are you? What are you seeing?
We speak to so many different types of people across the board, I feel, on a daily basis. And I think for us, it's more - we build that trust right out of the gate with our candidates. And we've heard some stories, and a lot of them actually asked for advice. Do I say this? How do I do this? We've had people come to us that they're like, I need to interview, but as soon as I start interviewing, I can't talk like, they just lose the race, they freeze up or candidates with ADHD they jump around in
conversations. And so for us, I think it is all based on each individual, and what they're looking for, what types of clients they're interviewing with. We try and coach them in a way where we try snd do prepping interviews, we'll do trial interviews, We'll even help them rewrite their resume, we will coach them and like, let's tell your story. What is your story? How do we write a marketing pitch about ourselves?
Right.
And so we try and bring that to the table is added
Yeah.
And more often than not clients are, it's not a value and added services from DefinedTalent. And I think that that is something that is really appreciative from our candidates. And I also think it's good because when the time comes, we try and be extremely candid and transparent if the
candidate is open to it. So if we're submitting a candidate to a client, we might even be that that barrier-breaker that say, Hey, just want to let you know, the candidate has given us permission to speak openly on their behalf, that, here's a situation they have, ABC, just want to make sure everything is here for us. block - It's not that, oh, nevermind, I don't want to interview that person anymore.
Huh.
It's okay, let's set up the interview. And so it's good because we also try and really get feedback from our clients. And I think, at least we, we try as hard as we can.
(laughs)
And when we get that feedback, too. I want that honesty, I want to be able to go back to a candidate and say, listen, here's where you fell short in the interview, how do we not do that again in your next interview?
Right.
How do we continue to uplift their spirits? Because there's tons of candidates that are out in the market right now that are either getting ghosted... ...or they're interviewing, doing a one round
Oh yeah. interview, and then they don't hear from anybody again. So we try and just keep them moving. Because I feel that by keeping them moving by encouraging them to just keep going - I'm a big, the universe will give you what your what you want when you're ready for it, and it's being in the right place at the right time. And this role then wasn't for you. If there was barriers or something off, we just keep going and moving forward. Right.
Again, we don't try - A lot of times, candidates will come to us with that information. And I think that's awesome, because it shows that our team and us in general, we hold that safe space for them to ask all these questions. Do I say something? Do I not say something? What are your thoughts? So I think, from where we're sitting, it's quite, I feel like we're all in alignment on this podcast together.
Yeah, we are. But the difference between say, you guys and me is that you operate as agents essentially on both sides. So you're able to bridge that gap between the employer and the candidate.
Yeah.
And you're able to deliver feedback on both sides that is impossible to get otherwise.
Yeah.
So that's a gift, you know, that's a gift to get everybody involved.
Yeah, I was gonna touch on that and saying we as recruiters, and I'm sure, Allison, you can kind of agree with this going back to your experience as a recruiter too, but we're in a unique position, like you said, to kind of see both sides. So if a candidate comes to essence says, Here is the issue that I've had interviewing in the past, I have the opportunity to do some research and say, here are some tips that I have as someone who does interview all day long and does understand what the market
looks like. And here's how I can kind of help you understand how to better interview and I actually recently did that with a candidate that Tara is friends with. And I had the chance to sit down with him again to thankfully two people with ADHD...
(laughs)
...who understood kind of the difficulty of interviewing with that...
And you talked about a lot of different things! (laughs)
We flew through a lot of conversation real quick! (laughs) But it was interesting speaking with him and hearing him say, you know, it's like, they asked me a question, and all my thoughts just kind of fly out of my head. And I was like, Okay, so let's talk about how to break that down when you're asked a question, or can we look up YouTube videos beforehand of typical interview questions that someone in your role might ask? And just being really prepared.
So from the candidate side, that's something, again, that we as recruiters can be responsible for, but as well with our managers, if we're speaking with somebody who is neurodiverse, being able to say, Hi, this candidate has this issue, is there a way that we could restructure this interview to accommodate them?
Yeah.
If it's somebody that has anxiety or issues sitting for long periods of time, or, feels really anxious, being on a call for three hours, it's okay, then we maybe need to break up those interviews so that that candidate is able to digest that a little bit easier. You know, it's just really being intentional with how we're going about that partnership between our hiring managers and our candidates.
Ellie, I love that. That's great. That's great. Yeah, no, I mean, candidates out there, it's wonderful, they're able to work with you because a lot of recruiters don't do that, they don't get that involved. And you know, and then they come people come to me, because they can't get the help they need from the outside, you know?
Yup.
Mmm hmm.
But yeah, I mean, and, you know, in terms of Tara, did you have, did you have a specific question?
No, I was just gonna say it's so true when being able to have the access to the client - And I mean, Ellie, we can help that interview process, we can help change that interview process.
Right.
So I think it's equally as important for recruiters to be able to know so that we can bridge that gap for our candidates, because you're right, there aren't a lot of recruiters out there that do
that. It's, you know, we are a partnership-driven agency, when we CAN build that trust and that relationship, not only with our candidates with our clients, and we can help them see that, hey, in order to interview certain candidates, or in order to interview this candidate, can we switch up the interview process
a little bit? Instead of it being a three-hour-long panel interview with five people virtually, let's break it down, and even if it's with somebody that would rather not divulge their information, we can still help to be able to say, Listen, we need to just break this down, you know, timing issues, calendar issues, if it comes into being, you know, that I don't want to say personal but
not wanting to be out there. But I think at this point, it's really important for our clients to understand that processes, interview processes, need adjusting, per candidate, no matter what the diversity is, because every single person interviews differently, and if you're looking for a particular person, you need to be able to adjust that interview, you need to be able to ask maybe different questions or ask it in different ways and have an understanding, be more open
minded to it all instead of just, you know, blinders on focused at the end. I wanted to kind of just circle back and do you know, you working with candidates and your thoughts on your Top5 tips per se, on maybe interviewing candidates with neuro diverse and mental health challenges, is there are there different ways that you would even suggest or is it mostly like are your thought processes or what are your thought processes for that?
So thank you. It's a good question. I first of all, I think that Ellie's comment about if you have ADHD, somebody asks you a question, the whole thing goes out of your head. The preparation for pretty much everybody is so, so important. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing to me how many candidates don't even bother looking at the website.
Right?
Yes! (laughs)
Like, that's number one. There's so many other things that you can do to
Yeah! go above and beyond and, and come to the interviewer with a point of view. So you know, that you've you show that you've really done your homework, if, you know, there are a million tips. But in addition to being super prepared, maybe even having had an opportunity to maybe talk to some people in the company and ask them, some specific questions, and you create a panel of questions about this, the department that you're interested in. So there's lots of different things that you can do.
Yeah.
But I would say probably my number one thing that I talk to clients about, of all stripes, is connecting the requirements of the job to the work that you know how to do.
Yeah
That way, they understand immediately whether
Mmmm yea.
And it's surprising to me how little how or not you can do the job.
Love that.
So never just say, you know, I like right, or few clients really know how to do that. So in the work that we I have read about or I can do this or I have general skills do together, they, I help clients develop their skill stories. So describe your skill, tell me how you use that skill at work, and then prepare to answer the questions that are there right in front of you in the job description. Tell me how you did that thing at this other
company. So if you come to the interview prepared to discuss that in a very succinct way - I like to use the car method, the challenge action result method? like really, really think about how you can pinpoint exactly how you can do that job.
Love that.
I would say that's probably number one. Number two, l I like to talk to clients about, assuming they're comfortable, taking control of the meeting instead of waiting for the dreaded question. Tell me about yourself. You know? (laughs)
(laughs)
I'm ready, I'm ready. Just walk in and say, how are you? Would it be helpful? If I told you a bit about myself to get to kick it off?
Yes!
It just makes it so much lighter. Right? So I would say that that's another that's another tip. Obviously, it's amazing how inappropriately dressed sometimes people can be especially, you know, Millennial, and Gen Z clients. So, you know, making sure especially like on Zoom, what are you going to wear on the top, it doesn't really matter what you're gonna wear on the bottom, but there are there are
all these kinds of things. If you are on Zoom, or on the phone with more than one person, making sure that you talk to each individual that you've already looked up their LinkedIn profile, know a bit about them.
Yes!
You can try to make a connection with each person individually. So those are some of the things - I'm just trying to think if there's any other sort of boldfaced...So back to the neurodiverse question, one of one of the key questions is we know, you know, very boring question, but pretty much everybody asks, and in some way is, tell me about your greatest weakness or your greatest failure or something
along those lines. That's your opportunity to talk about something that used to be a weakness, but they overcome.
Love that.
And maybe it's, you know, I've always had ADHD, you know, I was diagnosed as a child, I, because of ADHD, I have learned to be so organized and so structured in my work and I'm really good with technology, I have all these skills, I have these tools that I use, and maybe list like the five, here are my five favorite software that I use, because it really
helps me stay organized. So you're actually like, again, you're taking something that's a potential weakness and saying and explaining how it's really a strength because if you didn't have ADHD, you wouldn't have this skill set. So turning the tables and I think Ellie definitely talked a lot about that.
That's huge.
Just off the top of my head. Those are some things.
I love it and I think you know, I think we covered a lot in this podcast and I think that if we were to keep going we probably could talk for hours about it. I'm so grateful Allison for you to be taking time out of your busy schedule to sit and chat with us. And I look forward to a potential blog that's coming out or did it come out already?
No it didn't No, no, definitely not. No, (laughs)
I still have answers, I promise!
I know, I'm still interviewing and I want your answers so but this gave us some some good fodder for it. Beautiful on that, we'll make sure to get everything up and running and posted and then once that happens, too, I would love to share everything that you would like to share out with the public too and to our audience. That sounds wonderful. And again, like a big shout out to you guys because we just partnered with a client of mine and she got this wonderful job through you guys. So this is a
win win. So let's keep dong that (laughs).
I would love it. I was definitely love it. Thank you again so much.
Thank you, Ellie. I hope things don't get too crazy out there with the hurricane. Thank you, great to see you guys.
We are DefinedTalent coming to you at Top5. Make it a great day.