Welcome back, Victoria and Ellie, how are we doing today? Doing well.
Awesome. I'm really excited to have this chat today. Let's talk about employee attraction, retention and engagement. Just to put first question out there, what are the tactics that are out there nowadays for attraction, retention and engagement?
I think there's quite a few.
Yeah.
New ones are popping up all of the time. First and foremost, like the first initial representation is always your job description. Right. Okay. You need to have a careers page, it drives me nuts when I can't find the careers page on somebody's website, if I can learn everything about what you do, but I can't figure out like the company values, where I can apply for a job, what jobs you have open, you need to fix it,
it's very simple. They make ATS systems that can basically build it for you, that has to happen. The job description is that like trailer of the movie, so to speak, of what it's like to work here.
Right.
But also just how your job description is worded. I'm seeing more and more people putting emojis in job descriptions, which I love, because it just like makes it feel more like personable, and like a conversation, which is how people want to feel, I think really emphasizing on that page, all of your people, your values, the career opportunities, learning and development opportunities, all of that that's like the first and foremost most tried and true
method. Beyond that, I think it's really getting into social media to actually attract the talent, whether it be through LinkedIn and your company pages, or actually through organic like social media posts.
Yeah.
I think producing LinkedIn content with your marketing team, that's not just about growing your business. But that's also targeted towards why somebody would want to work for your business, right? Because the two go hand in hand as much as you should be pushing out content.
That's like, you know, target customer, here's why you should come join our pool of customers, you also need, here's why we need more people to work here and why you should want to work here because look at all the cool things that we're doing. And maybe it's a sit down chat with the CEO or somebody in a really niche department or a woman in leadership, right?
Whatever it is something that's going to be really appealing to the candidate markets that you want to pull in, but also posts that are just really important to the values and the culture. I think empowering the people at the business to be active on LinkedIn.
Yes absolutely.
Yeah, there's horror stories of managers who actually get mad when their teams are putting content out there. And they say, Oh, you're taking time away from your job, or like, Hey, I didn't agree with the post that you just put out and you work here. So that's a problem. You don't understand the power of a personal brand is
going to carry you so far. But if I Victoria, I have a really strong personal brand, and I work for X company, and somebody loves my posts, they might want to come work with me an x company.
Absolutely.
And so I think it's important to really encourage that even to like have people attend webinars on like content creation, it's really simple. And it's really easy to be able to push those things, that is the most organic thing that you can find. It has to come naturally. My biggest issue with a lot of companies out there is when they try to force values or force a culture out there that isn't actually
authentic. I interviewed for a role over two years ago, I think, and one of the questions I asked was like, talk to me about how the values actually show up in the business every day. And I loved the answer that one of the leaders gave me and he said, we built the values and then we built the business. That is our everyone should be thinking about this. And that's what you need to message to the talent because that's going to
feel authentic. I think candidates can sense when something is disingenuous or like phony.
Yeah.
And they want to know that you treat them well. And then from there, it's really just about like, making them feel good in the process. I think from a talent acquisition perspective, like if I'm reaching out to a candidate, I want to let them know exactly why I think that they're qualified, exactly what I'm excited by them. But even if they're just applying and they're reaching out to me, I don't care if they get the job
or not. I want that person walking away and saying, oh my gosh, whether it's just me personally, or the business itself, like that made me feel great. Even though I didn't get the job. They were so communicative, so transparent. I actually got some constructive feedback. Maybe I learned something about myself. So even if I'm not going to be there, I would recommend it to a friend. Maybe there's different roles six months from now that I'm a fit for like, that's what I
love. And I think so many companies overlook that candidate experience when it's actually the first indicator of employee experience. If people are communicating with you so much and so well before you work there. You're probably going to have really great communication experiences once you're already there, and that is what you need.
Absolutely. An experience. Experience. Experience. Experience. It's all about how somebody experiences something, whether it's speaking with somebody, even the response from an email.
Yeah.
And getting a response, I mean, getting a response is huge, let alone just the experience that somebody has, from the very first touch point. Is where it all begins.
Yeah.
I -
Yeah. Go ahead, Ellie.
I was gonna say going some of your points, I think we and - I talked to, I've been working on a lot of
marketing roles recently. And I've talked to so many people that are like, we are moving away from this professional straight jacket, like branding, and messaging and company voice to being more human, having personality and your company that reflects, like you said, your values, what you all bring to the table, the culture, and I think that's so - I remember kind of when I first came into, you know, the corporate world, like having my own voice, and messaging was kind of like,
cliche or like looked down on and I think it's become so popular in marketing and branding, that I love that there is the more human and real connection and just voice. I would say to again, talking about like values on your page. That is huge for me I remember when I was interviewing for just so many jobs like, and I wouldn't see that I was like, I don't want to work for a company that doesn't know what they
stand for. And I think in my interview with Tara, like, we never even talked about my experience, to be honest, we just talked about what we were passionate about, and what we valued and how we wanted to change recruiting. And that to me was like, more beneficial than talking about my nitty gritty experience. Because we were aligned, we already knew where we wanted to go. And like
the getting there. You know, in my experience didn't matter as much as long as we cared about what we were doing and how we were building something. So that was, again, having values and being able to ask questions, like you said in an interview and say, What do you guys do every day that is in line with your values? Or how do you see your values at work in everything you
do every day? I think too, going along with the careers page, being realistic about your job descriptions, being realistic about the positions and the budget that you have. If a candidate reads a job description is like this is a one title but seven positions.
(laughs)
They're not going to want to work for a company where they're, they're like, clearly they don't have the budget to hire the three people they need. And so they've smushed the puddy into this one job description. Just be realistic about what you need, what the priorities are, because people are understanding of the market right now. And knowing that companies are doing that mash, and they don't want to work in that position. I think continuing on to kind of retention and how to keep
retention. I have seen so many times companies promote and offer leadership opportunities, but there's no leadership training. And I think that is where we lacked so much in these corporate roles, and you miss out on the opportunity to grow our people professionally, financially and personally. You have to teach someone how to lead or else you will not be successful in keeping the team under them and helping them
grow. And I think there's so many times where we've talked about work life balance, and just being a good boss and being human in that role. And that all goes back to building thoughtful, emotionally intelligent leaders.
Yeah.
And I think that, again, goes into the idea of investing in your employees, you're going to retain them, you're not going to have turnover, you're not going to have to keep hiring and spending all this money on starting over when you just spend the money to invest in the individuals that you have. I think that is so crucial to retention, making your people feel valued. And again, going back to that emotionally intelligent
leadership. It all is a cost benefit from start to finish, basically so sorry, that was my brain dump. But those are definitely places I think are super valuable.
You sparked a couple ideas that I have actually seen in my own professional experience as well, when it comes to just hiring for a skill set, you don't want to just hire because they have five years of experience that you needed. And they've worked with this software, like you're hiring somebody who is going to enhance or should be enhancing your culture. I have a love hate relationship with the word like culture fit. Because the culture should be ever-changing.
Yeah.
It should be iterative, it should be something that as your business grows, evolves.
Yeah.
Because the state of the world is doing that. And so if your culture can't keep up, that's going to
Yup. be a huge impact on your turnover. And so I always like
Or is this really make or break because to think about culture enhancement. So yes, this person on paper might have everything that they need, but how are they actually going to enhance what we already have? I've actually worked for businesses where senior leaders were hired, who categorically just did not align with the company culture. And they were hired because, well, their resume was amazing. And you know, they have all these
connections. Awesome. But everyone was miserable, who worked alongside them, cross functionally with them, under them. And eventually, the senior leadership finally caught up and said, Enough is enough. And from an HR perspective, and a TA perspective, when you're trying to give that person feedback and say, Mr. or Mrs. Hiring Manager like, this is how the business is trying to operate from a cultural perspective, when it comes to hiring and retention.
And you're just straying from the narrative, I don't want to tell you that because it didn't work. Like it worked for you somewhere else. It doesn't work here. But you also have to give and take. And so I think, from the top down, executive leadership really need to think about not just hiring somebody because their resume is really bright and shiny. But are they as a person going to actually bring something different? And that also then leads into
inclusive hiring? Which only that also then leads into how we set our expectations with our boosts your culture only enhances your employee job descriptions. Especially in today's situation, the amount of retention, and gives you a better competitive edge at roles out there that have been reposted for months for receiving four or 500 applications. And I personally have seen people say, Well, I didn't have the exact industry
experience. You're telling me that you got 500 applications, and you're reposting it, because not one of them had that exact niche specific thing. Well, then maybe it's time to think about the other transferable skills that you're not including on your resume. Or maybe you need to have a really deep look at what actually matters to get the job done. Can we train somebody on something? attracting more talent. It's a
cycle. And if you have a bottleneck somewhere, it's only going to affect the rest of it. And so I think everything that you said, Ellie, like, perfectly ties into a lot of that. And that's where people miss the mark is like, it takes one bad apple not to be cliche, but to spoil the bunch, and people leave bad management. They don't necessarily leave bad companies.
So if it's not coming from the top down, and if executive leaders will say well, he's driving revenue, or oh my god, like she's just producing so well. Okay, but what is she doing that's outside of that that's also affecting somebody else's ability to drive revenue or somebody else's ability to work well?
I love what you said about the culture fit versus culture enhancement. I think that is that is so beautifully sad, because you're right, it's so many times they're like, We want this person to fit the mold. But how could that person explode the mold and add value to the team in new ways? Like what are we
looking for? There are so many things where, you know, they could be a good fit and offer new strengths and views and mindsets to the team that don't fit the mold, but doesn't mean they aren't a good candidate.
I love that incredible.
I do too. Culture enhancement that's like, top notch. I think one of the biggest things even as a recruiting agency, like we're working to meet every single candidate to learn about their hard skills, whatever those skills are, you know, it's often the blueprint to their resume. But we want to we I want, our team wants the soft skills. I want to know who you are, what are your passions? What are your joys? What makes you wake up in
the morning? Because that then as who we are in partnership with our clients, we as their recruiters should have the finger on the pulse of what's happening internally. And and know what drives that business. What drives that team culture? Because and what are the enhancements that as a team where do you see this team going? Where do you see your company going? Because we want to hire those enhancers. Right? It's not about just fitting into the current culture of how it is.
Yeah.
I hands down, the best two words that I've heard
Yeah.
Go ahead. Go ahead - I was gonna say. is culture enhancement in regards to attraction, retention and engaging internally as well. I was -
Gosh we've got to stop meeting like this. It's interesting thinking about employee
(laughs loudly) experience and the interview process. And we kind of touched on this a little bit earlier. But I do think, as recruiters or as HR we have the responsibility to share with our hiring managers and our leaders, the market, and like you said, I think so many times we have teams that think that their jobs and their companies are the best thing ever, because their mommy told them, they look good in a
tux or in a in a prom dress. And I think we have to, I hate to say humble, but it is such a competitive market right now. And you have to get serious about competing and about understanding that there are other offers and other companies that are doing incredible things and being competitive that just because you are great, and you are doing good things does not mean another company that the candidate is interviewing with isn't doing those same things.
And to be attractive, you have to have these things to stand out. You know? And I think sometimes we, we forget about that in the hiring process and how to sell that. But I do think that there is an aspect of how can we be better? Are we the best? And how can we close that gap to be the best? Because you have to humble yourself and understand that maybe you aren't doing everything that you can to be the attractive company. So it's very interesting.
Sorry, yeah, it's -
No, go ahead.
If you're saying if you're combining just a culture fit, it's so exclusive, because all it takes is one person having one wrong thing. Well, they don't fit now. And that doesn't mean that my back candidate, you said it so beautifully of like being able to explode and challenge. I think creating a space where people can manage downwards, but also manage upwards and have the autonomy to say, hey, having been here 3/6/9, however many months, we tried it this way.
Yeah.
I'm getting feedback, or I'm noticing a trend that like maybe is the reason it's not working, or here's how we can make it better. Why don't we try doing it? And to have leadership that's receptive to that, and that can say, oh, my gosh, we never even thought about that idea. That's amazing. That's how
somebody enhances it. If the second somebody feels like they can't do that, you failed, you've made it harder for them to do anything, you've put the marker that like, you will not advance here, or we're gonna make it harder for you to advance here, because you just can't speak your mind or challenge. If it's, well, this is how we've done it for 20 years. It's not broken, don't fix it. Well, maybe it isn't broken, but maybe it can be better. Right? And I think on top of that, too, it's
Yeah.
Right. recognizing that like, you said it so beautifully. Somebody once told me that I was the best and whatever. None of us were born a professional human. I think even just remembering for myself when I got my first real corporate job, like the anxiety that I had on a regular basis, because I was like, I have no idea what I'm doing. And there was no course on this in college like, it's so real.
(laughs)
And the fact of the matter is, is somewhere along the way, someone gave you a chance. And so why do you then have this mentality that like this person needs to be perfect? Maybe there's something that you can give them a chance on? And I think especially when we look at the EIB initiatives, there are resumes of underrepresented minority groups that sometimes are just not going to look the same because that person doesn't have the same background.
Yeah.
But taking a chance. That person could be the best person that you've ever hired. I say too, even just with interviewing, there are people who are awful interviewers who are the best employees and vice versa. Some people sell you a bag of goods when you're interviewing them, and they come in and they are lazy and don't do anything.
(laughs)
(laughs loudly)
Like, it's a crap shoot. And so I tried to think about like, testing the mold. I usually in my recruitment strategy will always find somebody on paper. I will find one thing that I like about them. And I'll be like, I don't care if they have nothing else, there's something about this person, I'm just going to put them in front of the hiring manager. And then we'll talk about it. I'll tell you why I think that they're interesting.
And if they're genuinely not the right fit for right now, I just want you to meet them.
Mmm hmm.
That's how you create that inclusivity, right? You have to kind of continuously be breaking that mold and testing the limits and pushing. The second leadership is afraid of that, you failed.
Yeah.
So you have to have those things, you have to give somebody a chance, you have to create that space. And I think going into that retention as well, allowing people to learn how to manage upward. I actually ran a seminar in my last company about this, like, how do I feel comfortable doing it? That's a challenge. Just even given authority figure feedback is scary. Say Mr./Mrs. Manager, I didn't like the way
Mmm hmm. you spoke to me just now, like something along those lines. As a manager, it's really important to make that safe space and to say, I want to give you feedback. But I'm just gonna ask you, how am I doing as a manager? How can I support you better? What are your goals and skills that you want to enhance? And how am I either missing the mark or making the mark to help you do that?
(sings like a tune) Emotionally intelligent leadership?
Yes. I love that.
I am a huge advocate. I could sing its praises. But again, I totally agree. I think there's like, I call it like maybe corporate narcissism that this works, we're doing well, like we're the best. And you have to, you're never gonna get better that way. Like you said, you may be good, but you could improve. And so being able to say, I'm not perfect, this company is not flawless. How can we better ourselves?
Yeah, there's this notion of I want to hire a subject matter expert. But we can all be subject matter experts. I always when I work on teams and teams that I want to grow for myself, I want to hire somebody that's better than me at something.
Absolutely.
Like, I don't care if I think I'm so good. There are things that I know are my own weaknesses. So I want to add somebody to my team who bridges that gap so that I can learn from them, I don't care if I'm their boss, or I'm superior to them in some way, like teach me something and go be better so that we can be a powerhouse together.
And I think there are some times where people don't have that same mindset. And so they're afraid to hire people that are better than them because they don't want to be out-shined. And I think that is, again, the the corporate narcissism that you have to be the big dog on top. And that is very interesting, because I think there's two, again, like you said, there's two ways to look at that there's, you can be
intimidated by that. Or you can be excited about the challenge to grow and learn from somebody.
Absolutely.
You ladies have so much amazingness to share and spread and I agree with everything you both are saying.
(laughs)
Yes, yes. notes taken. I think another thing too, and I we could continue on and on and on on this topic. I feel like because there are so many different companies out there that we all have worked with or work with, that have the different tactics that have different ways. I think another big thing too is sharing with potential clients or clients that it is okay to rip the band
aid off. It's okay that if you're afraid of attracting employees, because I've got some clients, quite honestly that have never really had to create an employee brands to hire because they haven't needed to. And now they're trying to figure it out. Again, I'm going back to culture enhancement these CEOs and partners need to understand that they do need to hire, to enhance, it's not like in their minds. It's not a yes, you're gonna find resumes that are probably a blueprint of what
your job description is. But you're going to have a conversation with this person and they are not going to fit the vision of what this person this new person coming in, is going to be enhancing - at all. And so then it's like taking those resumes and finding that one or two, something that really allows you to dig in and a little bit more and figure out, okay, how can this individual, what can this individual bring to the table? Right? And that's what's going
to be most important. And it's picking up the phone and having a 15 minute conversation, testing the waters. Allowing your yourself as a company owner or hiring manager to get a little bit vulnerable. And and be okay with that, because I think that too, will just bring the right people into the environment that you need for the right reasons.
Yeah. Interest -
Oh, boy, we've done, we've done it again.
Mine is short and sweet. I was just gonna say it's interesting, because it is scary for people to change. However, I think once you do rip that band aid off.
Yes.
Like a Tara said, your your world opens up and like, the opportunity to get better at interviewing, to get better at writing a job description, and just to like to see beyond your four foot box. That's what's going to take you to the next level. So yeah, it's scary. None of us like to live outside of our comfort zone. But the second you step out of it, your world opens up.
I was gonna say this probably should have been said for the three of us at the start of this conversation. But I think to establish, like, our credibility in in this space. And on this topic the three of us come from backgrounds, where we work with all kinds of different candidates, we work with all kinds of different hiring managers, and all different kinds of companies and teams. And we have seen what
works and what does not work. We know when our candidates feel valued, and when they don't, and we know why. And I think we see what companies we've hired with, and then what we're having to rehire with six months later, because the candidate did leave, and there was a retention issue, or candidates that call us and are like, we love our job. This is incredible. Thank you so
much. And I think we have a unique position as recruiters and people in talent acquisition and working with agencies or different organizations that we've seen it all, and we again, have compiled this list based off of what we hear from our candidates, our experience. And I just think that's interesting to again, kind of develop our credibility on this topic, like we have seen firsthand what has been successful and what has failed.
Yeah, I think we're the closest to the market, right? And so what we're listening to what candidates are saying to what people want, we don't just want pizza parties and like a pat on the back when we do our job well, we actually want benefits that speak well to what we need, whether that be for family leave, or PTO or vacation time, we want to be able to work flexibly, we want to be able to have that leadership and growth
opportunity. We want to get paid well, obviously for what we're worth, but there's trends that happen in the market that tell us what those things are. And I think too many companies are like, afraid to listen or think that they all of a sudden operate differently or the rules
don't apply. I think our the value in the HR and the recruiting teams is you're not going to get anybody else telling you that feedback the way that we do because we're the ones interacting and getting that anecdotal evidence and so it's really important to listen to that and trust it.
Laughing about the anecdotal evidence and hopefully I don't get in trouble for sharing this but my my partner came home and was like, apparently it's Employee Appreciation Month they gave us a tiny little box with the ingredients to make like a single s'more.
(laughs)
So there's like one marshmallow, two graham crackers and like a blue cheese bar and he's like, just don't even bother at that point.
(laughs)
Hand me the $5 and call it a day you know?
He's ready to retire.
it's almost more insultingto get the ingredients for a singular smore nothing at all.
Right (laughs).
Oh, you know it's just funny it's like how do you appreciate your employees? Is it a s'more or is it an extra PTO day or what? Oh god I cracked up.
Yeah, that's not gonna get him to retirement level or like a raise making this s'more.
(laughs)
Might actually get somebody jealous that they don't have one, I mean (laughs)>
It'll cause problems at home (laughs).
Yeah (laughs).
And guess who's had to work from home sitting looking at that one damn s'more for a week and a half. Me. I'm gonna eat his appreciation s'more.
I appreciate you so much I have ate this s'more for you.
(laughs) Yeah, right, there it is!
I'll give him the $5.
(laughs) Ladies, well listen. Awesome and again, thank you so much for joining us on this DT chat today. Have a great day. Okay.
Thank you.
All right