Hey everyone, welcome back to Top5 brought to you by DefinedTalent. We are a results driven service working with clients to connect them with quality talent as well as working to make an impact within the recruiting industry. We talk straight about today's professional world with real world professionals, experts in recruitment, job seekers and business owners alike. Have a question for us? Send it in and you might spur our next
conversation. I'm Tara Thurber, Director of Talent Innovation here at DefinedTalent and today I am joined by some amazing women. They come to us from different industries and walks of life. We are tied together by one common experience. Today we are speaking about grief. Grief is often is often marginalized in professional settings. And the women joining me today are willing to speak to their individual experiences. It is our hope that we can expand the conversation and the stigma
around grief will shift. I'm really proud to welcome Kelly, Dani and Dana. Ladies, how are you today? Hi.
Hi. Hi. Good. Awesome to be here.
So happy to have the three of you join us. Why don't we just kick it off and each of you can introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your background.
As if my pup knew we were talking about grief, she just came into the room put her head on my lap. It's very funny.
Awe.
My name is Kelly Parrotto and I've been in talent management and talent acquisition for over 20 years. I've worked at a number of advertising agencies and client side initially hiring exclusively creative talent art directors, copywriters, producers, designers, and in the last 10 years across all disciplines. That's pretty much in a nutshell.
Thanks, Kelly. Dani, you want to take over? I'm just kind of looking at who's next. So go for it.
Sure. All right. So I'm Dani Herrera, I
Awesome. Dani, thank you so much. And Dana. was born and raised in Buenos Aires, Argentina, that's South America. So my first language is Spanish. And I've been living
Hi, I'm Dana Faheey Valdez and I am a talent here in New York, I want to say maybe for seven years, give or take. And I'm the Director of Recruitment Operations and EDI at R/GA. And I'm also one of the co-founders of Allies in Recruiting, which is volunteer led organization that I mean, our goal is to help recruiters become a little bit more intentional and inclusive and their day to day practices. consultant and professional
coach. I have been working in talent management and talent acquisition as well for about 20 years and have been consulting for about the last year and a half.
Cool. Thank you so much. And it's so important. And I feel so very lucky to have all three of you on because I feel that we are coming from so many different walks of life. And yet, we are here all under the same umbrella today to talk about something that I think just really goes unnoticed. A lot. So with that in mind, I mean, I know grief is such an important topic. And everybody
experiences it, right? You know, we lose loved ones, we lose pets, we lose friends, and they come in - grief can come in different formats in life at different times. I would love maybe if we want to go one by one and just kind of tell me is it maybe something that you've experienced with grief or as an employee in the workforce? Or were you kind of around the situation of being an employer dealing with grief in the workforce? Who wants to kind of kick that off?
I can kick it off. I am I think I've been in both positions. I you know, I've worked in advertising agencies for most of my career and there's like a sort of general I'm trying not to be too harsh, but there's like a sort of general failing around onboarding and just across the board in advertising agencies (laughs).
(laughs)
But you know, part of that is a very unclear bereavement policy. As an employer, I've been on that side of it, where people have a loss, you know, an employee has a loss, a death in the family or another kind of loss, and they don't know what to do. And so then it's like, they have to talk to several people, only to find out that they get like four days off, or something that is inadequate.
Yeah.
And then my own experience was, my mom got sick, when I like pretty soon after, I'd started a new job. And it was fast, like, she got diagnosed with stage four cancer and was, you know, dying from the minute we found out over the course of three months, and I was traveling every weekend, I was, you know, taking Friday's, and traveling up there every weekend for three months. And the only person that knew for a really long time was my direct boss. Which, at the time, I didn't really think it
Mmm hmm. through, because you're more concerned with what's happening in your life, you know, and he is a kind person, and so it was fine. But like, my direct boss was the global CEO of a giant advertising network, that is not the right person, for me to be going to.
You know, like, he doesn't have any, he doesn't
(laughs) Right. Wow. It's, it's hard, because how do you know what to tell me. He also doesn't really at that level control my calendar, like it's not. Um, so it was. There were like, nobody knew what was going on. And I was still working through the whole process. Up until like, the day before she died. I was taking calls because I didn't know how not to. communicate your grief,
especially starting a new job? I mean, you don't have those trusted colleagues that you may grow over time working somewhere for 15 years. So, you know, being somebody that's new in a job and not even knowing what the policy is? Or if there was a policy? You know, I could see how difficult that would be. It's kind of like, you don't know what to do. So any suggestions now on kind of going through that? How would you have
changed that? Or what would you even put out there on how to communicate what you're going through?
Yeah, to go to, we need to be addressing what to do if you're facing that, or a situation like that.
Emotional support.
Emotional support and some clear policy around, like, how much time you can take off it? Does this qualify as family leave? Or, you know, what do you do in a situation like this? I think identifying how to help people. And I do think that, you know, after COVID agencies have started addressing this in a better way. But like, how, you know, how do we - what are the rules around people that are caring for elderly parents
or sick partners? And I think that there should be like a designated person that you go to, in probably, you know, in the talent group in HR, that you can go to with this and say, like, this is happening, you know, like one single person of contact for the grieving employee, so the grieving employee doesn't have to go to every single one of their managers and tell them this horrific tale of their life.
Yeah.
Dana, you make an excellent point. One of one of the things I had thought of when I was brainstorming is that having that one designated
person, right? And that person, albeit just a limited period of time only over the course of assisting the employee, but that correspondence and reaching out like you tell your manager, but you have all these business partners, certainly speaking as a recruiter like all of these people that you deal with on a daily basis, that aren't - they don't sit within five feet of you or they might not even sit within your office space, and how to communicate it to the masses so you don't have to
repeat the story. And that could be just one advantage of a process in place, you know? Because you're right, a global CCO knows where you are and knows that you're suffering, but they're not putting the word out. Are they even picking up the phone and calling HR on your behalf and making sure someone reaches out to you? Or get the ball in some way? And it's, I feel in my experience, and Dana, based on what you said, it's almost like, you know, people are, they're not trained, right?
In, in this area. And much like, you know, leaders have sensitivity training, and things like that, just like, I feel you should know, don't, you know, these are the things you shouldn't say? And these aren't these are the things you shouldn't ask. And these are things you should be prepared for as a member of leadership or a supervisor or department manager, it seems as if those people are like, thanks for letting me know.
(laughs)
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And they do need to know, but they should not be the people that are your very often we are in it, I think we are all in a unique position of having - often having managers who do deal with this stuff. But, I think most of the time, a person's direct boss is not the person that should be dealing with it. Like, your direct boss is probably not the person that should be dealing with your grief.
I was just going to say that maybe recently we've had operations within various departments. But I know that Dana and I have experienced in running a creative department. And as a recruiter, a lot of of employees come back to us, right? With issues, which is fine. That's what we're there for, we enjoy doing it. And if you're a department manager, you become like the den mom, and that person becomes it. I don't know if that works in all other
departments. And it certainly doesn't work when the person it's happening to is that department manager, like in our current roles?
Right? Yeah. And that's more or less what I wanted to say as well. Because I mean, I do understand how that might be complicated. And like, in your case, Dana, like this person was very, very senior, like you were in a very unique situation, you were just new to this company. And this department was different maybe to our situation, but I do believe that our direct manager should be the person guiding us through the process, and pointing us to the right
direction. Yes, there is a different and separate conversation to be had about maybe managers are not trained, they don't really know what to do, they don't even know the processes themselves. That's a separate conversation. But dealing with this thing like speaking someone that one through this as an individual
and as a manager as well. It is part of our responsibility as well, like being part of being a manager and being a leader is being able to be there for your teammates and your teams, no matter what like not only during the performance review cycles, and about the work itself, but anything and everything that encompasses being a person and a human being within a workspace.
So yeah, and again, we can talk about, like, what to do with managers don't know what to do, but I do believe that they should be part of the conversation at least. And if they're trauma-informed, if they do know how to handle the situation and know how to have those conversations as well.
Like one part of the process that we get maybe implement is having managers ask the person whether the person would like the manager to be the one communicating to others and having that conversation with HR and what the other managers and what the rest of the team or the person would like to have that conversation themselves. That's a decision that the person that is grieving needs to make.
Yeah, I do think they I agree that they need to be involved. I just don't think that that person's always right. Probably
No 100%.
Even with the training, but like, in my But Dana, your situation is I'm sorry that you've experienced experience, I didn't I want to have the conversations with all of my partners. But I also didn't want him to, and he couldn't have, like he literally would not have been able to. So I would have preferred to have somebody that I could go to in HR, and they have the conversations. Because I, you know, that it wouldn't have been
on either of us. And I thought that we were both probably inappropriate for the - I could have done it. And I eventually did, but in a very, it took too long. And it was, like really hard in a way that I don't think somebody that's grieving should have to deal with. that. That is your almost like pre bereavement. And how do you manage it before? Yeah.
Right? And I think that most of the time that's how it companies address it, right? Like, oh, when you get two days for bereavement per year, if you're lucky, and you only have one passing - any type of thing. But so often it happens, and you don't know. Right? Like, I think of the last loss I had in a in a full time environment. And I got the information and was out the door. Right?
Yeah.
And that, again, would be, you know, in in that case, I wasn't there that long, either, but I had been on boarded and become close to one specific person in HR, and just called her immediately and was Whoa, you know, and she's like, Don't worry, I'll take care of
it. And what that meant was telling my boss and, you know, department heads, which seems great in a vacuum, except those people weren't like, oh, okay, let me tell them, the senior business partners that might be working with Kelly, that just didn't, that didn't happen. And if there were something in place that people understood, like, Okay, we need to follow these
steps, not for process sake. But you know, this is one of those times when having a process in place really helps because people don't know what to do. They don't know what they should say they don't know, what's too
much what's too little. So having sort of a script to follow, like, Okay, step one, let's make sure that their direct report knows, and let's make sure we get something to the house or the family or something to let them know that this organization that this employee is giving 80 hours of their lives to to every week...
Yeah.
Knows that, you know, because I think not all organizations do that not all organizations acknowledge they, Oh, well, that's a personal thing. And they'll handle it on their personal time. And they're taking a personal day, and everything is personal, personal. But it really affects so things, including our ability to communicate ourselves on behalf of ourselves.
Yeah, I think that's a good point, that process would help everybody be more clear about how to manage it without impacting the wrong people. Like you just you have a process that
I think something too, to think about is, it's the you follow. agencies and the types of companies that I'm hearing you guys have experience with, there's lots of layers, and there is an HR team. I come from very small startups where I was the HR person, or there was no HR person. So it's like, so then what do you do? Right? You're kind of feel like you're isolated on this island? And you
don't know who to turn to? I mean, do you go to - you're on the executive leadership team, with the CEO, and the CTO and the CFO, and you're just like, so who do you talk to? Because you tend to be that person that everybody's coming to? Or even just smaller companies where they don't have the policies, the processes, the procedures like that in place. What do these employees do? Do they grin and bear it? Do they hide it, and then you're dealing with the third the mental health aspect
of that. And I think that that's something that really needs to be put out there because even if it's a process or procedure policies, it should be made more aware from all walks of companies just to say here's a way to find information or here's some suggested ways. What do you ladies think about that for the smaller teams, the smaller companies?
Yeah, that's another reason why I was thinking about communicating and chatting directly with your manager or the person that you work with, more closely like whomever that person is, because even in large companies, even in very large companies, with HR departments, sometimes HR is a department, it's kind of faceless for the employee, you don't really get to know anyone, you don't really know who's working on HR. So that's why and again, everybody's situation is
different. And of course, when we're talking about like managers that might not be ready to have that conversation or prepared to have that conversation, but I do believe it has to be someone that you work closely with. Otherwise, as you were just saying, Tara, you might just like, hide it. And that's not healthy, either. It's not healthy for the employee, it's not healthy, it's not
healthy for anyone, right? So it does have to be like someone that you first of all, that you trust, someone that you feel safe around. And it's not even about being comfortable or not, because that will never be a comfortable situation. I do believe it has to be more with being safe. And being in an environment where you can have that conversation, whatever that looks like for everybody.
It's a culture thing too, right? The culture of the organization you're working out, you could work at a organization that has multiple layers and multiple things in place. But if the overall culture is, you know, grin and bear it. Then that's unfortunate. But that's ultimately like, okay, these are the things you need to think about when you accept a job at an organization with certain
cultures. Right? But Tara, are you wondering if there should be something bigger than us and bigger than our organizations and departments like something more societal or legal, like around maternity or paternity or things like that? Or?
No, I don't really know, having an I have had, I've had a lot. I've personally dealt with a lot of grief. From having a miscarriage to 2021, I had eight people die in my life, two of which were children, and death by tragedy. And it was one of the hardest years. And you know, I work at a very small startup team, we are all very close. And I'm very much like, I wear my heart on my sleeve, like people see and can feel my energy. From the moment I could
be like, Oh, I'm fine. And they're like, No, you're not, something's wrong. And so I don't know what the answers are or what the answer is. I feel for me. And it happened at, you know, the year of of losing eight people. There's so many different levels. And I have to say, the one thing that I did was, I was very vocal about it, because I didn't know what else to do. I was, you know, my whole community and team made it very well known that they were here for me, and anything that I
needed I could have. It was if you need to take a couple of days off, please do. We've got your back there, you know, cards were sent to me, little messages were sent to me. And for me, that's what I needed because I felt kind of isolated, especially working at home by myself. I just was like I didn't know what was happening. And there were so many different levels of grief, I felt that I was going through that just being open about it. And allowing myself to be vulnerable, I think was really
hard. You know, I had only really been working with all these people for a year. And so being vulnerable and being honest and opening up I think was what I could do because I didn't know how to handle this from my own personal aspects. Do I think, like, would I have communicated differently? Or would I have wanted a policy or something like that set in place? I don't know. I think for me, I was able to work through when I wanted to work through.
But I, it was also understood that if I needed to take some time, I had to put my own hand up and say, This is what I need. But I think that's also hard for people going through grieving processes, because sometimes you don't know what you need. Sometimes you just need a big fat hug from somebody, and you just want to cry it out. Or sometimes you just want to be left alone. Or sometimes you work through it all. And you put on that, you know, that hard
shell of everything's good. I got this, I'm gonna power through this. So I don't know what the answer is there.
I think that it needs to be on the list of other things that we need to talk about.
(laughs) We have a growing list!
(laughs) Yeah, so you know, we're in a place in time where, you know, we say to one another, I see you, right? And I see your this or I see your that or, and grief has got to be in there, right? It's the legitimate condition. And if someone is dealing with it, it's like, okay, I see your pain, I see that you're in pain and you need space, or you need an ear
or whatever that is. And it goes along with all, you know, now we can pretty much say I'm having flu like symptoms, and everything's like, oh, okay, okay. Okay. So what is the, I'm having flu like symptoms for
(laughs) all of these other things, and to be given space and an immediate understanding and acceptance? And it's just, I do think it's one of those difficult topics that people
don't love to talk about. And if we're going to talk about all of these other uncomfortable truths in the last decade, this could be added to the list of and don't forget people might be going through something, you have to put yourself in their place, have empathy, well, they could be grieving something they could be, whatever the case is.
And it does, you know, you want to have a process in place, and in my mind, I want to have a process in place, because I want to address any potential upcoming issues, and be able to respond to them in an appropriate amount of time and not be caught, you know, without knowing what to do. But every person is different. Everyone grieves differently. You know, some people want to be public about it, some people don't. But it doesn't mean that oh, well, they don't want to talk about
it. You know, we're not going to, at least if there's something to fall back on, even even the most non empathetic person could look and say, oh, gosh, I would never even thought to send flowers as you know, not everyone has empathy, common sense, etc. That some people do and some people don't I think it does - sorry, go ahead.
Oh, I was just gonna agree that it's such a, like, deeply personal experience, I like my thoughts around having like a process in place and a clear policy around it in place is for the same purpose is like for the purpose of giving the the people who don't want to be public about it, a way to manage
it. But I hear you, Tara and also agree with Kelly and Dani that like, it's a very, it's personal, it's emotional, and people should be trained within the organization to manage, you know, those kinds of
uncomfortable conversations. But I also think that that means there should you know, it's a larger policy, then it's a it's a more extensive policy than we have in place, like offering bereavement counseling or, you know, flexibility around how many days you take, and when you take them, that kind of thing.
Well, I feel too depending on health care coverage, right? I think that there's a lot of those are the ancillary benefits that are added in that maybe companies aren't even looking at when they're setting up benefits every year. You know, they're looking at the immediate medical, dental, vision. Here's also all of the ancillary benefits, you know, bereavement days, what about if they want to speak to somebody, like go to a counselor, a therapist be able to have those extra outlets in
there? So I think it would definitely be helpful. If there is something that's within the policies that addresses all of these questions. I mean, I'm sure employees have no idea until it comes up for them.
Right? It's when it comes up for you that you're like, and it's the last thing you're really wanting to do is to figure out what are my company's policies and procedures and around all of this, but I think because it is such a topic that we are all experiencing, it should be spoken about, through onboarding, it should be spoken about, through, you know, your first couple of days. If you're meeting with HR to go over paperwork, you know, I'm sure maternity/paternity leave are
reviewed. Well, here's also this too. And it may not be the greatest thing to be talking about while you're onboarding, but it's important because everybody goes through it.
When we talk about death and dismemberment, you know, it should kind of go on the list of Givens, right? You have insurance for this, you have insurance for that you have to check a box for this that type of thing. It really wouldn't be that much for an organization to have a specific bereavement counselor, that's only tapped when necessary. Because when you're going through that you don't have time to find someone if you're not currently seeing someone and
that kind of thing. I mean, we celebrate, we celebrate birthdays, we celebrate anniversaries, we send gifts, we send silver rattles from Tiffany's when somebody has a baby like it feels like this is a topic that needs to go into the given. Right? These are givens. And if we shift our attitudes towards it in that way, then maybe it would fall into place, you know, take a little time, but it would fall into place as something, you know, yeah, this is it's not
even a benefit. It's like almost a requirement of offering from an organization.
Absolutely.
And something that I've noticed, and of course, it doesn't tackle, like any of the actual benefits that we were talking about before. But something that I've been doing to try to normalize the conversation a little bit more, because of course, I mean, we can only talk about asking organizations to have these benefits or this processes or these policies, only, they're aware that this is something
that they have to do. So something that I've been trying to do is just normalize the conversation a little bit more. And it's not comfortable, it's not comfortable for me, and it's not comfortable for any buddy
else. But when I went through grief especially in the last three years, like I talked about it openly, I included that information on my out of office email, I post information about what I went through on my LinkedIn posts, and I talk about like what I did like my year review last year, I dedicated a specific piece of it to the grief part that I went through and how I'm still going through
it. And by having those conversations, and again, of course, having a conversation doesn't necessarily solve anything. But something that I've noticed is that a lot of HR and talent professionals started reaching out to me and asking me what they could do for their companies. So to a certain extent, I feel that some companies don't really have anything in place, because they don't even know that this is something that they even think that they should be thinking about. And of course, it sounds
bizarre after 2020. But it's still happening. So, again, not solving anything, not a comfortable conversation for anybody. But if we could start having these conversations and maybe we could start seeing some leadership or business leaders or someone at the executive level, having those conversations as well and being open about like the days that they need to take off and the grief that they're going through. I do hope that it kind of trickles down to the rest of the organization too.
Totally, I feel like and this might be off topic, but it just kind of, it just hit me too, that I feel nowadays, there's been such a shift in companies internally, where it's not just a strict, rigid professional workplace environment. I feel like it's so much more, it's not a difference between the work and the life
balance. It's all around life, and balancing it all together, because our work is so intertwined with our lives nowadays, and maybe it's just me and just immediate businesses and companies, but I just feel like there's been such a shift. And now, this is why grief is coming up more and opening the floor up to conversations, because we are humans, we are
not just robots working. And sitting in a desk, a nine to five, like, I just feel like there's been such a transformation, and the fact that we have feelings, and our feelings do matter, because if we're feeling at the top of our game, then we're going to be productive and produce at the top of our game. So I feel like it's all coming to be more hand
in hand. And, you know, just listening, like sharing your story sharing the grieving process and other companies reaching out because I feel on LinkedIn, and on these platforms, people are opening up more, because it all ties together as us being human within a workplace environment, right? And it just makes so much more sense that people want to find solutions, or want to find better ways to help each other through situations.
I agree, I couldn't help my I couldn't stop my brain from thinking of a number of coworkers over the years who did the absolute opposite.
Yeah.
Like, you know, what, come on, you know what, you got to keep that out of the office? Or you come on? How long does it take or, and very judgmental and very unaccepting? And you know, it goes in our industry and advertising I would say is specifically, you know, the expectation of to work through it and push through it. And, you know, COVID has changed a lot of the martyrism of going into the office, even though you don't feel well.
(laughs)
On the kind of now we're allowed to be like, right, like those flu like symptoms, I need an hour kind of thing.
Yeah.
But that's not always the case. It's just not it's terribly unfortunate. I had a loss. And I was fortunate enough to have someone on my team cover on the priority projects that needed to be worked out in my absence. And the ball was dropped. And when I returned, I got hell.
Yeah.
I mean, I got hell, like, look, I understand you had a loss, I'm so sorry for your loss. And they said that no less than, like seven times and followed it. BUT. And so, you know, I don't want to hold an entire organization responsible for that person's behavior. But I will say that that person's behavior is similar to a lot of leadership behavior.
(laughs)
The truth is there was that organization and it goes back to the culture thing and trying to shift the thinking and a lot of times we have these, we have these really open, wonderfully open conversations with one another, but we're a bit sweet preaching to the choir. Right? Because I wouldn't imagine anyone that I'm talking with would ever have a response like that. Right? So I don't know it's, I don't know, it's frustrating for sure.
Like, I don't think that we have adequate bereavement time, you know, in place, any place I've ever worked, but, you know, how do you determine how long somebody needs? And how do you give them that?
Right? And I mean, do different companies do it differently based on you know, their own PTO? I mean, how are there - where do we find these answers?
There are like the Family Medical Leave does cover caring for an elderly parent, caring for a loved one, a sick one, if you adopt, there are certain things that, but that's, that is no easy process.
Right.
The process of going through the application of that but some some companies I've worked for, especially the independent ones, they're like, whatever you need, if we need to get a freelancer to cover you will get a freelancer to cover you. Whoa. But yeah, I do think going back to the it needs to be part of the, it's a given these are this is this, it becomes part of that all inclusive package of things we care about,
and we talk about. So that one organization that might be less empathetic doesn't get an option to not you know, address it and make things available to employees.
You know, there's so many amazing, amazing points, I think that all of us have really touched base on today. And it's, I think, this wrapped around us all individually experiencing grief in the workplace, but also talking about, you know, employers our employers of the past, present and future of what can they do to make it a safe place for their employees going through it? You know, I, the one biggest go to is really safety and normalizing the conversation, right? Normalizing that
conversation. And then also, as you're normalizing that conversation, that creates a safe place for employees and employers to be able to open up a little bit and find what works maybe for each different culture that employers have. Is there anything that either of all three of you would suggest, just to kind of come back into, and I know, we're getting on time here too. But just to suggest or put out there, and let's kind of trigger people's thought
process. Maybe when we share this, we can ask others to give back to us, like, share their experiences share what their companies have maybe done, because I think this is really the beginning of a very large
conversation. I do like, when it's talking about inclusivity of everything, you know, it's that whole package around what we as a company care about, and that comes with their culture, their mission statement, you know, and I think any individual that is looking for a job, or any company that is looking to build a positive work environment, this should be added to it as part of who they are as a whole.
It's a question, one of the question I have in my head - Is it part of is it part of the benefits? Or is it part of the perks and benefits one sheeter? (LAUGHS)
(laughs)
But at least should make the perks and benefits one sheeter?
It's I mean, I think, honestly, it's both because there's actual policy in the benefits. Right? And then you've got perks page, which like, you know, and here's how, here's who you can go to, here's how we address it. Here's, you know, like, the stuff that's not covered by your insurance or covered, you know, in family leave that sort of the thing.
Yeah.
But going back, Dana, what you had said earlier,
Medial leave. you know, having that one point person, maybe there's three That's right! people on staff who are, who have gone through special training, or maybe there's three volunteers on staff, that are like, you know, what, I'm, you know, I'm part of this kin group
I'm gonna tell you where to look for it. that we these are the things we care about. And so you know, you can always go to someone on that group, and maybe they're not just there to listen, but they're like, you know what, I know exactly what paperwork you need. I know that this is how you're going to do this. This is what you put in your timesheet, that all that stuff so you don't have to go chasing it. And that would give you the job number gives you the action.
Yeah.
But, you know, anything to make the process, easier and more manageable. And now that we're talking about talking that it's not out there, like, yeah. Right? Did anyone have to go through something so horrific like you did Dana, alone? Or even, you know, even if you wanted to be private about it without any sort of even admin support?
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think we all went through it, I think, you know, I just am not, as I'm not personally equipped for dealing with that sort of thing without somebody to tell me what to do. Honestly, like, I was embarrassed, like, didn't you know, not like, embarrassed that my mom was dying, but like, embarrassed of my grief? Like, you're not the only person like that?
Yeah.
Normalize the conversation, normalize the converesation. (laughs)
Look of what other companies are doing, right. And then something that's how you just said before, I mean, I know that some companies are, like, maybe focusing or aiming to have a talent experience type of team, right? Like, they might not necessarily focus or be experts on grief, or how to handle those situations, but they are the go-to team for any, and all situations that pertain to taking time off and
all of that. And some other companies are, like, kind of putting everything together, and they're like, unlimited PTO type of policies as well. So going back to something, Dana, that you were saying before, like, how much does like how much time does someone need? Well, maybe with unlimited PTO, that's a conversation that we might or might not need to have, because
there is already a policy. And we might not even need to go through like, having these conversations that we don't really want to have and going through the policy and like asking permission, and all of that. It's the policy, it already exists. Let's take advantage of it. So yeah, I think that some other companies are like working towards that, and then trying to like, find different solutions. But yeah, we are not ready. Or we are not there yet. It's not normalized enough yet.
Right.
Thank you, Tara, for bringing up the important conversation.
Yes, I am. I'm so happy that at least we've started. And, you know, I thank the three of you so much for joining and sharing today. And I, you know, I want to continue this, I want to continue the talk behind it. You know, I think it's very important, not for just the four of us. But for all of our listeners out there, whether they're employees or employers, let's all work together to really normalize the conversation as a whole.
Certainly, for your listeners, it's important to know that it's not something you have to hide. It's something that you can you can talk about, there are certain rules and laws in place that you're permitted to do certain things. But you don't like you don't have to suffer by yourself. You don't have to feel like you have to get to the office when you're feeling like you can't. It's important to know.
Yep, they're not alone. And I think that that's very important for anybody going through grief. Well, thank you, ladies so much for joining us today.
It was a pleasure.
Thank you for having us.
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