The Legal Line: Breaking Down Consent, Power & Accountability

I'm d Mallory and the ship Boy, my son that general. We are your host of TMI.

Tamika and my Son's Information, Truth, motivation and inspiration.

New Name, New Energy.

Yes, it was my birthday. We just left my birthday. Had we just left my birthday. We just ended tourist season, and tourist season was amazing. It's my birthday, the amazing Malcolm X. Macael you're listen to me, Malcolm XE the holiday right like she needed holiday, you know, on one twenty fifth Street, on Malcolm X's birthday, they shut the street down from one to four, all of the stores from I don't know exactly where it starts at, but all the way from probably like fifth Avenue to like

It needs to be a natural.

But it was beautiful to watch all of these big storage foot locker and all of these stores closed down in respect. I was in the gym working out, you know, in Harlem, and he's likely we shutting down.

We shutting down. You gotta come back at four o'clock.

So my tourist brother, Malcolm Mix, we appreciate you, God, we love you.

Yeah.

And I had a beautiful birthday, had a dinner. Friends was there, showed a lot of love, beautiful birthday cake.

Birthday cake was fire. Then Mike that beatcake. Shout to beat Cake. That Mike with that chain.

Cake, New York.

That thing was fire man.

Marriam is over there. She's the owner and she does a really good job. She's really community oriented. Also, she's a good chick.

Dope dope.

Birthday and my next Now, listen that happened. All happened, and said, listen my birthday. The Knicks clinched to go to the conference finals the first time in twenty five years. Shout out to Jameen Brunson, Shout out to call Anthony Towns, Shout out to the whole team. Man, it was just a ten.

You got to see Carmelo.

Then I seen Melo. Yo, listen, this was just a full circle thing. That the next day, I was at Afro Preak in Baltimore where I see my brother Carmelo Anthony and I congratulated him because it's the first time I seen him since he's been inducted into the Hall of Fame. Shout out to Carmelo, him around. Listen, Carmelo is in my top three players of all time, and it's.

Allan Iverson, Carmelo and Kyrie. These are my favorite three players.

Everybody, anybody who knows me knows that those are the people I don't play about. And it was before that. It was Isaiah Thomas. So it was Isaiah, it was Alan Iverson, and then we went to Carmelo, and now Kyrie is probably pretty much my favorite because it's it's soul times.

But why Carmelo don't play basketball anymore?

Melo said, I just heard him do an interview the other day when he was talking about he was supposed to retire on his twentieth season, you know, he said he was doing twenty season, that's what he wanted to do.

But he didn't.

He retired right at the beginning of his nineteen season because he said he was going to retire when his son got into high school because he wanted to focus, and that was a thing he said, and he said it was time for.

Him to just leave the game.

You know, and he wanted to do it, but he said, when my son get in high school, that's what I'm done. And he said it was time for him to do it because that's the word he gave his son was like that got had he gave.

He gave him an extra year.

He said he actually was going to retire around eighteenth, but he went an extra year.

But he didn't get to that twenty. So that was his.

Reasoning for why he didn't finish out his twentieth season. Lebron is in his twentieth season now, so you know, just understanding it's a lot the twenties playing basketball at the level in the NBA for twenty years. There's a lot of way in tee. He just really wanted to say he wanted to pour into his son.

He wanted to.

Definitely gonna be big time. He's one of the top players in the nation, so shut out to him. Man.

It was just a beautiful experience.

And and the Knicks is in the finals, like just watching them win and it was a blowout.

Boston got smacked. Smacked in the garden, you know what I'm saying.

We was like right down the block, we in the chop house and he was getting smacked in the garden, so the whole city was just lit up.

It was just a beautiful time, man, you know.

And I'm just happy for the next trying to see if we can get some seats somewhere, maybe in the nosebleed something. I just want to be in the garden just to feel that energy. So anybody who got a ticket for me, lesson, I'm here my birthday. The game is actually tonight, you know, and I got my Knicks stuff on. I'm gonna be out there, probably scoy buys. You got a ticket, I do gonna need anything. I'm still taking presents for my birthday. So if you got

Wow, the next is gonna kill.

So the next don't kill. So love them the Knicks. What you got to say.

I'm very happy. Of course, I'm from New York. It's New York. We would it love it amazing. You don't know anything that be going on. I know, a little bit, a little bit a little bit, a little bit of basketball.

I used to have season tickets. I used to go to basketball games all the time. And uh so, now what I do is I clap when everybody else clap, and then I'm in the mix, and that's it.

I'm happy. Yay Go New York brings me to my thought of the day.

So on a more serious note, I was thinking about, you know, and I'm I think one of the things that I pray God has given me that makes me a leader and a better person every day. It's not

It hurts.

It hurts, And that's all I say. People are like, oh, what are you that it hurts? You know, And I think that people believe that when we are public figures, that we're not human. Some stuff just hurts. I don't even know what to say, right, You don't even know the right words to use, except to say that it hurts and everything that is playing out in this trial.

It is very painful.

And to the extent that any of this stuff is true, which I am absolutely inclined to believe that some part of it is, that's even more painful, right, And so I just have to keep reminding people of that because I see folks in my comments and my dms, why are you not saying anything about this or that? I don't know where y'all what y'all consider to be friendships.

I don't know.

Like I'm not getting ready to go out here and be in the free Diddy T shirt, right, Like that's not something that you will see happen. But I'm also a human person that has the right to say that as a that it takes a lot to process, especially when you've never witnessed this side of a human being that you care about, and then these are the things that's being stated about them, Like I don't know why

It's also it also.

Could be that he you know, they got into it back and forth and he pushed or did whatever he did, which is something that generally would be behind closed doors and we would never know and you wouldn't lose your job or whatever as a result of it. Then you have the situation with Meg and Tory, which I have very very strong views about a lot of things around

I understand exactly what you're saying, but I think it's relative to where we're looking for the information. Right when we look in social media. Social media is a cess pool of negativity, you know, especially in the social media we look at, they demonize women and black women all the time, no matter what they say.

Right.

But I think if we look at a large scale, there are many people, like you said, there are many people that say this had to happen, or we believe these people.

So there's going to be when you put something in.

A court of public opinion, everybody's bringing their own biases, right, Like you said, based on your situations. Some people are DDG fans, some people are Halle fans, right, so they both their fans are gonna be like, oh, he's lying, she's lying, So that's what's gonna happen.

I don't know if it's all fans either, my son.

I think that there are there is there is there are people who might not even know DDG didn't care nothing about Torri. Maybe they know Puff, maybe they don't. Maybe they like him, maybe they don't, but they are instinctively conditioned to say that if these women, if these men are in any kind of trouble because of what these women say, that is to bring a black man down.

Well, I don't I don't think that in Puff. I think Puff has lost in the court of public opinion. I think he was demonised immediately after the videotape. Come people, he lost all support. You don't you don't see anybody. I don't see one person publicly.

I mean, I don't know.

Now all of a sudden, you got Boozy and different people because.

Basing off evident things that he's listening to, he's basically saying that, based on this evidence that happened here, did I see it looked like Cassie was involved than the same shit that we and a lot of people look and say she might. She did not deserve to be beat.

It was toxic. He was abusive to us. He beat her ass.

And that's one hundred percent wrong. But nobody most people don't believe that he was forcing her to engage in sex. They just and there are people who say that she did. They believe she did. He controlled her mind. But there's gonna be a dynamic of people that say that they don't believe it.

But that's okay, Well that's fine, and that situation. You know, there are going to be people who say that she was definitely a willing participant in all of that.

So we're not going there.

But as long as people understand, I think that's why it's important that the guests that we have coming up today that he's not being charge of forcing her to have sex per se.

That is not the.

Center of but those are the criterias under with sex trafficking is it's either cohersion or.

Force cohersion and that and that cohersion is very very.

Danced, it's nuanced.

Cohersion means that you didn't want to do it, and I convinced you beyond outside of your normal realm. I did something to put you in a position or or inspire you or motivate you that was to do something that was against your business.

But I'm not sure. I'm not sure which we'll have to get into. But I'm not sure if sex trafficking is only about force, because I think that a person could be a willing participant, but if they are paid. That's why I keep trying to tell people that Cassie is well, she was paid to have but that's not what we see. Everybody continues We're looking at that case the wrong way because everybody is continuing to say she he didn't pay her this and the third that is

We don't know.

We have to wait and see what is at the end result and throughout well each.

Because when I was because I want to know if.

The indictment is saying that he sex traffic Cassie, or he sex trafficked these other people. If he's saying as he tracks sex trafficked her, if she was one of the victims of sex trafficking.

It might see where people feel like it's definitely they don't see it. I see what you're saying on that, but I do think that I do think that sex trafficking from what I read, because I really have been trying to understand because I know that our instincts, depending on our experiences, like as a as a survivor of domestic abuse, sexual abuse, my instincts sometimes can be my instincts can take me in a direction that facts don't even matter. You get what I'm saying, because I just

I don't know if that's if this prostitute was strictly for the use of sex and you're paying her to have sex.

Or he or him or whatever. But y'all will say it never happens. You never hear when a man thing.

Okay, that's not even no, no women.

You wanted somebody to pull up that women have been accused of sex trafficking and they have, I mean and convicted of young boys.

Yes, oh yeah, that has happened.

But anyway, let's let me get my so my thought of the day is specifically around the idea that there are three women who all three of them are telling their stories of abuse, and there's a large group of people in our society who instinctively have said that these women are lying or exaggerating their situations. And I wonder right whether or not we are fostering an environment where women will just completely stop telling their stories.

That's very that's a very serious thing.

And I know men ain't gonna tell their story because we don't even believe men can say they were sexually assaulted. People don't believe it, people laugh at men, people tell you don't say it, and.

It's really hard.

It's so hard to reconcile all of that when you know that, you know, women have are often accused of lying or whatever. You deal with that, and then at the same time you want to believe women.

It's like, who is so much?

And you want to protect the brothers because you got the brothers who are like yo, they always you know, take us down or whatever. It's so many dynamics and I just wonder if there are which I believe, I know there are women out there who are just like you know what, I was thinking about saying this happened to me or he did this to me. But I

I mean, I want anyone who's been assaulted, who's had you know, someone take advantage of them, to be able to feel comfortable coming forward, you know. But at the same time, you don't want that to be weaponized against

This is not the person you know, right? You know that's not did you know? You know? This kind person, funny person who embraced you, should you love?

So that's what we all, we all are you want to believe.

And that's what we all face with every time we're faced with, especially when you look at lodging life individuals. We're faced with the fact like, nah, this can't be this person because this is my favorite rapper, this is my favorite basketball He couldn't be that type of person because we have this image of those individuals in our minds, so we want to give them a benefit of doubt.

You know.

We don't want to believe that our favorite singer would lie about somebody putting their hands on them. We want to believe so that everybody wants to believe. And in the court of public opinion, that's what it is. But in the reality it's based off when these situations happen, it's a case that goes to court and right and they have to draw out the facts and they have to come to terms of what.

The reality of that all is. So we're as.

Human beings, We're always going to have our personal you know, preference in our biases and who we love and who we don't like, and we're gonna demonize some and we're gonna make other ones angels.

That's just the reality of what it is.

I just hope that we get comfortable we're using discernment looking at facts, you know, just being careful to just put things on individuals without seeing any facts, and then being able to look at the facts and come to a conclusion. Even in that conclusion. Understand that your conclusion might be wrong. The courts might get it wrong. We might demonize somebody and the course might come back with

And so we're never gonna all get it right.

But we just have to give people levels of grace. We have to give people levels to understanding. We got to understand our own biases, you know. We got to in turn and be very aware and understand that people don't see things the same way that you see it. There's gonna be somebody that person did it, and you're

To put there whatever.

You exactly to put the reality of what's going on in front of us. And we have to understand that's what we're doing.

But I also never want to get to a place in my life it's a real like I love this about me. The forty five means really thinking deep, deep, deep, deep deep, and challenging self and I live to tell the story. My memoir does a lot of that. I never want to get to a place where I'm not also standing ten toes down and supporting our brothers, knowing that the system does railroad us as a people and

You should be able to say that. I'm ended by saying this, right. I have friends, people that I love dearly do that that have hurt people, that have shot people, that have killed people, that all these things, and I love them to death. You know, they went did their time, they've been you know, they've been held accountable for it, and they came home and they changed their lives. Right, And that's what grace is. That's understanding the reality of life.

They would never look at Cassie, she's disgusting.

They've lived the life, they have things that they've done in their life. And when we look at even the last few years, did he did he look like he was doing self reflection? I don't know, because once again we don't know, so prior to what he was doing, he might have been, like he said, he was in a dark place. And and I want to give him the grace to say, damn, maybe you maybe you do recognize what you did wrong.

Maybe you did.

I don't know, but I understand that he's not irredeemable because I have friends and people that I love who have taken people's lives, and I love them and I would sacrifice my life.

For them right now. I mean, he.

Needs to be held accountable and when he does the work, and his accountability comes for what it is. But if somebody took somebody's life and they home free, did he shouldn't be have to do life?

And well, I just don't. I just don't say that.

I guess where you and I differ because taking people's lives can be looked at in a lot of ways. Just because a person is breathing doesn't mean they still have life. Sometimes the decisions that we make can take more from folks you know, can can can. I'm not saying that they can't overcome it. I'm just saying that there's certain things that you could do.

And I'm not.

Talking about, oh, you cheated or you lied or this. I'm not talking about that. I'm saying there's some actions, especially when you are physically abusive to another individual, that can destroy parts of them right physically and mentally. So I guess what I'm saying is I struggle with being able to get past physical violence against anybody, but particularly against women.

That's a hard like that.

You know, we all have we all have these different red lines, and when it comes it's like Gaza, there are people who are like, oh, well, I can't be more concerned about what's happening in Gaza when Brooklyn is an issue. Now, Brooklyn is damn an issue. Brooklyn, Bronx, you know, Saint Louis. There's so many places where our people are suffering and caged, inn and starving and being killed in many different ways. And if you really want to keep it a thousand, it's a genocide that happens

And there's nothing wrong with that. But I'm just saying you have to understand that there are some people that is not any situation. You do understand that some people are going to say, Dann, that was messed up and this and that, but this person is.

Not completely responsible for that.

It's going people that have shot somebody or done something and somebody's gonna say I love that person and the work that that person is doing, and the way that person is growing, I feel like I want to embrace that person.

I want to get that person another shot. And that's how life is. Your red line might be somebody's white line.

Yeah, well, well I don't want to be around nobody who they're white men, and.

You shouldn't want to be around that is Trump. I don't want to be they love Trump, and this reality is it is cool and it's other people.

Oh, come on, politicians separate to me, it does and that's just my reality.

I agree. I agree. So there's that, there's life.

But I think as long as we are honest about our feelings and where we stand in these things that you know, at least we can begin to move our communities further by dialogue that is painful and difficult. It's like sexual assault. Excuse me, it's like abuse in the household. You know, people don't really like to talk about it. But the only way to correct it is to root it out. You got to bring it up, like, hey, this is something that's going on. So I'm not telling

Could get an education for free.

And we should never be given jobs to people with no education. And I think that's I personally think that, Like, I don't agree.

I don't.

I think that's a little bit too much that just because a person doesn't have formal education that that means they are not capable of having a job.

I don't think.

I don't think get mezed and not cable. I think what it is is they want to understand that somebody has applied themselves to something, has acquired some certain levels of degrees to where it shows that they're disciplined to something. But I think it should be based on the merit of whatever the job that you want to do. Right, if if you can show me or I'll give you a trial and you can do the job, and you

A different life.

They've been working with their hands their whole life. They they know how to sweep, they know they know how to do to certain things.

They know how to fix cars cars because they grew up.

They grew up with father, uncle's aunt.

And I think those people should get the opportunities to do it.

I think, But I don't think they're saying they're going to give you a job if you don't have any skills.

And that's the way it sound.

Skills and education is two different things. I think skills it should be skills over education because obviously we live in an era, in a time where Donald Trump is the president.

There's nothing off anybody can do anything. That's just the Bible.

Yeah, but he doesn't do it well, but it doesn't matter.

But these people voted and they love him. So if you try to tell me that Donald Trump could be the president, then somebody with no formal education could work for the housing.

That's it.

Well, there's that. I think housing. I think new York City Housing Authority. They got to do a lot of internal work though on because what will happen is that these people who are classified as no education or low education will be treated as such.

As the thing is, the reason.

Why they did that is because they've been hiring those people. Because when you was looking at housing and the people that was doing sweeping and mopping and all that, dumb people that have no education, they knew somebody and they was ready to do the job better than anybody else. A lot of people was not educated. They wasn't educated.

Well, I get that.

I'm saying that people who are classified in the group of no education or low education are easier. No, they're easier to be discriminated against and mistreated because you need your job and so I could talk to you any kind of way. I could, you know, treat you any kind of way. So I think that there has to be provisions where that's being monitored that they don't become the lower class slavemen or enslaved. So I do think that, However,

But I will also challenge.

People to think that if this individual who's living in your buildings, by the way, you can't go to certain schools, you can't do this, I mean access to education. And it's not as easy as people think you say it is. But there's some folks out here and they don't even know, you know, if the application process is intimidating, or they've been you know, caught up in various situations, maybe coming out of prison.

It's a lot of things.

And the question is if they can't get work somewhere, then what you think they're gonna be doing?

And that let's go to our would guess our lawyer, our lawyer, our lawyer, our brother. He gonna give us some insight today.

That's right.

So as usual, we have one of our friends, well, as you said last time, more of a brother than a friend to us.

And you know that we need him. We need T and I.

On our show, we often bring a lot of our friends and people who are doing incredible work in the community across the country. And this brother is no different. Uh, he is our attorney first of all. First of all, so I don't know because if you are the brother is there's still attorney client privilege.

If you're married.

Yeh okay, So we just got to know that we need to know the law anyway. And so Royce is our attorney first of all. He's family to us, but he has been with us through many, many circumstances and situations, including the work that we engage in out in the community, fighting for families like Ramalley Graham who was killed by police officers in the Bronx in his home and right in front of his grandmother, something we've never been able to get over as a community. And Royce has been

For having any shop too. You see you see that that boys shop.

Yes, that's what he does.

He's a fashion fashion attorney. But you know, I feel like you started a trend in the fashion thing.

Think no, I know.

Because I remember some of the other attorneys not really dressing as well as you do. Because you know, I grew up around the attorneys. I done been around many attorneys and preachers are two things that I to groups of people I know well. And you would started with the bow ties and the whole thing and making everything sharp and match really well. And then I started to see other cats getting into it as well.

You know, it was a shocking to the federal system. The federal system is blue and gray and black.

So now you come in with a ce a sucker suit that's red or green, or you got pink and green, and they're like what's going on, like what's happening?

And they sometimes they have no choice but just.

Compliment you because you're doing the work. Because you're doing the work, it doesn't it doesn't impede how you proceed. It just it's who you are.

Do you suggest your clients show up pink?

Oh no, we show up sharp because you're a reflection of me. Right, we have to set a stage. Right, it's about setting a narrative, because what the judge sees is what's on the paper. We're trying to set a visual narral and we want you to buy into that narrative.

Now we're not selling you anything, but we want you to look at this narrative. He has respect, she has respect.

We're here today, we're gonna deal with what we have to deal with. We're looking straight, We're not with our hands folded behind our back. We're not looking down.

That's just the rules, you know, being on.

Try to understand those things right when you when you have a lawyer that is understands those dynamics. I didn't have a lawyer. I didn't have a lawyer to understood those that even explain those things to me. So you in there and you you don't understand how the jury is looking at you. You don't understand how the judge is looking at you. And when you they think you lack respect or you you got your hands behind your back.

Is your reality?

Be talking about corporate court etiquette. We're on trial. I don't need for you to do a lot of writing and a lot of hitting me. What that reflective you?

Reflects that you're scared and you feel like some sense then they said something that might reflect you or make you look right.

That's important.

So now if I'm sleeping and I see you feverously do something as a juror, now I'm paying attention to what's going on here.

I might have been daydreaming.

They didn't even hear it.

But people are people. They come in with problems, they come.

In with things, not wanting to be there anyway.

They come in right and the only thing you have to do is alert their attention to where their focus should be. And as soon as you hit me to the left or write the note and give it to me, and then I got to say stop doing it. And then you see this conversation going on. Well, I'm like, don't do that, and that person is talking. Now I'm missing that. I'm talking to you.

The perception is something that's important here and.

You don't like it, meaning the defendant doesn't like it? Or why are you giving mister Russell a hard time defendant? You see how sharp is he?

Nice?

He said hello in the morning, he picked it. I remember it.

Like we like him, but not to show up, you know.

What I'm saying. We like him and I like to be liked, so you like me.

Because sometimes it's the facts, or is the person that's relaying the facts, And sometimes the person that's relaying the facts can overcome, can will a victory doesn't happen a lot in federal court, but it could happen when you will a victory. I like what he's saying. I like what he's doing. I see how he manipulated the facts.

He seemed like a good dude.

His client is sitting there calm, cool and collective.

You be surprised.

We hear all these stories about correction officers and those in law enforcement, how they mingle with the inmates. You be surprised with you is how they may for fanhasize over the fact that, look, that guy doesn't look that bad. You know, that guy looks like he's he's a good, good dude, or she's a good person. And they hear the facts because I think real, deep down, real, real

Cause of doing A or B. And so if you can present a package.

That is formidable, that is respectful, then that meets them a little bit of the way.

Don't get any false hope hopes.

It meets them a little bit of the way, not all the way, because the facts are the facts.

So we brought you here, Royce, because you know there's this big case with with Diddy, you know, right, and so we've read testimony from Dawn, We've read testimony from Cassie, and a lot of people are confused right when you look at what he's being charged with. Rico sex trafficking, and a lot of people like, how is this sex trafficking? How is this a rico?

How can you have a rico case when it's only one defender? How is it?

Like I've never heard of rico where there aren't other

All right, So before we can even get into, you know, juries and trying the actual case, we all know that there is an indictment, and in the indictment, that's what was presented to the grand jury. So before we can even discuss the trial, it has to be an indictment. And we're talking about the federal government, they have nothing but time. So when we talk about sex trafficking, we're

So you're telling me that the star witness.

Who determines that the yeah, yeah, right, right right.

So did we ever hear the prosecution cigar witness and.

Did we read the indictment to see that the indictment talks about traveling and having escorts traveling from different states. We haven't heard any testimony about that. I think, as they say, back home soon come right.

We have.

Talk in the indictment about paying money extortion. We haven't really heard. We heard a little bit, but not a lot of that.

So when you look at this witness, what is this witness saying is this witness? Why is she part of the story.

I'm going to assume as a prosecutor, once was lays the foundation, gives the jury something to have an understanding of what's going on here, because quite frankly, unless I misread my playbook as a prosecutor, if that's your best witness and you put them on first, by the time you get to your fourteenth witness, I've forgot about your first witness.

This is true.

So now I got to go through redback four or five days of reading back, reading back testimony, and so no prosecutor want that. So what we want to do, we want to build, want to be able to come back. And you heard Cassie say this, and you heard Don't say that, and you heard and now you're starting to build because now you're going to have some people.

I would imagine, and my imagination is.

Fairly good, that you're going to have some people that are not women, that are men that were part of They call it an enterprise, right, and everybody ooh, enterprise.

No, that's just the name.

Of what you call it, right, whether it's combs or whether it's bad boy.

You know that either worked or was.

Employed or were consultants or something of that nature that did certain things. It's almost like a puzzle. I don't know if the prosecutor is working in out or out in. I believe they're set in the framework and then they're going to start putting pieces in the middle, and then it's going to turn into a puzzle. And so that's

Oh no, it's just.

Two or more acts within a ten year span that are on the list of a variety of acts drug trafficking, sex trafficking, robbery, murder, extortion, fraud. You commit those and it's two or more and that's how you get the conspiracy and you got a trapdoor.

But the person doesn't have to be on trial with you.

Well, they do, and they don't.

Sometimes what happens is the government we call it sliding in the first base. Sometimes people decide to slide in first base before the game even start. They know something is going to happen, they know that they're involved, and either you go to the FEDS before or when the FEDS start interviewing people, because they've interviewed.

A lot of people, you decide that.

I was employed to do this. I didn't know it was it would lead to do that, or maybe I knew about this, but I didn't know about that. And so I am going to before I am a co conspirator named in an indictment, I'm going to become a witness.

So that's basically what's happening is the people that the co conspirat like Actually, because when I'm when I'm listening to this, this is my personal opinion, this is not right or wrong. Cassie is a co conspirator if you asked me, because when if you're talking about sex trafficking and you talking about all these escapades they had, and you're talking about her getting these you know, these escorts and all that she co conspirator was she there was

Wow, look, there is no rule that you have to have colder all right?

Is there implicit bias and some sort of tilting of the scales? There could be they most likely is I don't think in any genre of the American tale, something wasn't like with a little squint eye. Right, But you know that coming in, You know that after the baby, after doctor slapped you in the butt, you gotta.

Know that, like I'm black, this is this is what's happening.

So what might be the exception is not an exception for you, it's part of the rule. It might be an exception to someone else. Now, what I will also say to you is that when you have someone that quote unquote you want to label as a co conspirator, but yet you find so many acts that kind of doves into them being a victim, you got to decide rights.

And the project has to decide.

You know, I got a guy who's seven feet toll, who gotta handle like Kyrie Irvan, can shoot driven whatever.

Am I gonna play him as a centaurs. I'm gonna let him do his thing.

And so I'll make the analogy for Cassie right, I have someone who, yeah, may have been involved, and there's a theory to say that maybe.

She should be at the table. But if I have more data points.

That says she's more of a victim than anything else, I'm gonna use that and go that way. And the same thing with the security guard or security in and because remember, for those who don't know, racketeering also includes extortion.

So if you're.

Employed and your employer are saying you have to do this else you'll get fired, right or you never work in this industry?

Again, Well, isn't that like extortion. I'm not saying it. I'm not saying he did it or.

Right, I'm just saying that that's the theory, that's right.

I think that I think that you know our intention is because it's eight weeks, so we're only in week two and it's at the beginning of wet stop.

Can I stop you right there? Say that one more time? Yeah, what we have?

We one in a day, We one in one day, so.

We got eight weeks of testimony that's coming down.

We don't know.

Do you think they won or lost this case with one person?

That's it?

They don't.

I don't think that at all and I've been saying that, but I'm just saying that because we haven't watched it all play out, and we do know how the justice system is complicit in the violence towards black men and black people. Therefore, we all are going to pay very close attention because people want to point out six white women as the prosecutors on this case and different points. So I'm just putting that out there so people are

In the process.

Look, just like a doctor, you come in and you sniffling, and you don't have a fever. He's already or she's already doing the diagnosis. Already, they don't even take nothing.

You sneezing, you don't have a fever. Certain things are being eliminated.

So now that the list get what else you don't eat, you don't keep fluids down, the list gets smaller. So as an attorney, respectfully, once I read the indictment and I start seeing what's the a's and the bees, and I don't know about anybody else, I think the reason why I'm good and the reason why I like it. I think the reason why people that I represent, whether they go do time at the end of the day or whether they go home free, is that we're gonna

I don't know. I need to know. Now, some people, Oh, you represent, You want to find out he's guilty innocent?

No, But this is how sometimes doctors misdiagnose people right because they haven't done the proper testing correct. They're making a decision based upon the theories of whatever's top of mind. You look like, next thing you know I got cancer, but you said it was COVID or some other thing and didn't give me the proper full analysis to make sure of what I actually have. And now I'm in stage three and we didn't know because you didn't do that work right.

And part of the part of the analogy and the equation that I really want to focus on in that is this is that I'm only as good as you gonna let me be m hm. So if I'm asking you, are you sniffling? Do you feel this way? You're like, no, Well, now you're sending me on path where I can ultimately misdiagnose you. So there has to be some give and take in this process of what I'm reading and what's going to go on.

But but but black people, black people, I think we're kind of going off somewhere else.

But whatever, But black people have historically been.

Misdiagnosed just because the doctor doesn't even care what yourself.

Well, And this is this is the great thing, And that's why I like doing what I do. That's why I'm glad to see at least one brother on his team, because there has to be conversations, there have to be relatability.

There has to be what's smoke, what's not. There has to be trust, there has to be all.

These things that go on in order for quote unquote there to be a fair trial, right, and that's what we that's what we're looking for.

So you think he's going to get a fair trial.

I would say yes, he's going to get a fair trial.

And I would say no, he will not get a fair trial because one I have to say yes and no because I know some of the attorneys that's on the staff. They are really good at what they do, and so they're going to stop certain things from happening.

But the judge is the ultimate ruler. The judge can say no overrule. You have to take it up on appeal. The case is over.

An appeal is after you've already been convicted, right, so you might be vindicated, but you served four or five years. So there's judgment calls that are going to happen that legal minds are going to disagree with. You know, what is enough narrative? You know how much is overkilled? Can you go in this area or not that area? We want to move on.

With the rest of the case. How do we want to proceed?

But then there's going to be parted that some stuff is just going to be stubborn. It's just going to be stubborn evidence. Videos that you saw are stubborn evidence. You can say what you want. That video is saying more than what you could even say verbally, and how can you?

But I think for me, what most people are saying is you can't discount the video.

Any video, not one particular. I don't know what else, what else.

I'm just saying, based on the video that we've seen, Okay, right, we see domestic violence, right right, And that's what most people. Most people are one hundred percent clear that or not clear. Most people will will pretty much say that based on what they've seen and based off even testimony, just based off a lot of you know, what we've seen over the last couple of weeks. So there is a strong possibility that he was abusive to Castle.

Not strong possibility, I.

Mean on a regular basis. We know this one situation happened. But people will say there's a strong because we didn't see the other stuff. Right, we just make an assessment based on that situation, based on her testimony and based on other testimony and just what we've seen it is a strong possibility. People say this like it's more than likely that he's put his hands on more than one time off camera off camera.

Right, it was off camera that day, right, but for but for But I'm just trying to take the point that that was off camera. Nobody was standing there with the thing filming them, So I'm just saying that we visually didn't see.

So what I'm saying is and people, most people are one hundred percent clear, and they believe that there should be some repercussions for what he did, whatever the minimum. But I think with people are having a hard time wrapping their heads around most people more often most people, some people, because I won't say most, there are people that have a very hard.

Time with sex trafficking in the recach.

They just do they when you look at when you when you see that, let me.

Just say what they're having a hard time because they haven't seen anything yet.

Okay, you're having a hard time.

People may be having a hard time with something that they haven't They want, they want they want to dessert.

You gotta have dinner. They got to take human bites rights. As the bits start to come pro or con then you can start to say I don't think they proved this.

That, and you can't say it hasn't been proven yet because they haven't even played out there.

They haven't even they haven't done. They laid the found I'm gonna assume I'm they just laid the foundation. Royce Russell, prosecutor, will not put his best witness on. We'll put a witness on that lays the foundation. Not a witness that people will fall asleep, but people are interested, and that lays the foundation. If you think that the case is over in this one witness, then you're right. You have all those conclusions. They didn't do this.

They didn't say anything about sex trafficking. No, she's one witness that said one thing right. And that's the way the Feds like to work. They like to work in very didactical, piece by piece. They'll have you come in twenty times and to ask you that same question over, not just to see whether or not you're telling the truth. It's because they went and asked somebody else some other questions and that person said.

AB and C. So they're coming back to you.

All right, we're gonna talk about A B A B A B A B and then you might slip in a C and then.

Now they got two c's.

All right, So now that person was telling the truth, and now I got you telling you. Now I can build on that. It's a puzzle for them. It is not straight rush the prosecution. Now, as you were giving out numbers eighty eighty percent, ninety five percent, you know the numbers are very high.

You know, I practice in federal court, and.

You won mostly games.

Folks do take no.

No.

I could sit here and tell you no, not in federal court, no state state.

Those are totally two.

Which one as a prosecutor.

Oh, as a prosecutor, I was fantabulous.

I mean, you know, as a prosecutor federal court.

Because here's the storyline with that.

People are not used to seeing people of color operate the way I operate, right, and so there's a somewhat of a little bit of a bottom line that I want to believe you just on how you operated.

And then you got the facts to corroborate. Look, I'm telling you the truth. You need to listen to me.

And the way we worked in the federal government. We got sixteen seventeen people. All I got to do is just try this case anything that's appealable, anything that comes to I got all person sitting there writing a note. Sorry, we're gonna get that. When you're a defense counsel and you're there, you don't have the flock of thirty people.

So why did you leave and do?

And so if you were having such success as a prosecutor, why look we now I'm in your personal business.

No I why did.

You go and get in the hard work of being a criminal defense attorney?

Because sometimes you be a stressed out Oh.

No, not sometimes, And it's not necessarily what happens in the court. What's happening out of the court trying to talk to someone and say, look, you need to see it the way I'm seeing it because I saw what was behind curtain number one. I took a peak, and what you're saying to me is not relating to taking that peak.

Now, we could do whatever you want, and I'm your main man.

We can go one hundred grand, but there's going to come a time that that door is going to open, and it's a good possibility I may go left and you may have to go right.

On the federal level, because that's just how tight it is. That's how they just have the people that you think you know.

Numerous times on the state levels of Defense Council, my clients will say, oh, that person's not showing up, and they right. I've never been on a case, in a federal case where somebody said they're not showing up. Everybody shows up.

Well, they said they lost a third witness for I'm just saying they couldn't front them so that.

Happen.

Things could happen, and it ain't over. They can't. You can't, right. I represented people where like, look, I'm getting.

The call because they're gonna arrest you and you're gonna be in the pokey until you come around.

Yeah.

Now we're gonna take your name off the witness list for today, We're gonna bring you and you're gonna be. You're gonna be on the next Thursday. And then between that time they may be conversations and hearings where the judge will hold you in contempt and you go behind.

Jesus you don't want to be in trouble.

You go behind bars a little bit, and you better hope that they don't hit you with one thousand and one. I'm getting real technical, uh, you know, which is obstructing a federal investigation. Now you got to think about that. And you didn't sign up for that, No way that you sign up for that. You just went downstairs and got six coffees because the man told you to go downstairs to get six coffees. That's how why the conspiracy could be wow right. I've had a case where the

It wasn't.

She didn't mean. She didn't mean the drug spot.

She was talking about, I meet you at the club, I meet you later on. They heard spot. Next thing you know, she's wrapped in a conspiracy. I'm like, now you got to do the culturalization, you gotta do the understanding.

And then she doesn't actually know about the drugs, because that's the key. They They probably already know you're not talking about the drug spot, but they know you know about the drug spot. So even if you wasn't talking about it in that conversation, they're gonna use you and say, listen, we think you was talking about the spot, and if not, we're gonna get you this and that, and you need

So the rico does not need more than one defendant.

No, it needs more than one. I mean, you don't have to charge, you don't have to put them on the indictment.

You don't have to have to prove it that they So there's nobody no one else has to be sitting next to.

So that's one.

Now let's talk about sex trafficking, because that's very I mean, I'm even very not confused because I went and got myself very much so caught up to speed. But especially when you have children and you know, and we work with black folks all the time, and I'm hearing sex

Well, I mean it is very very nuanced, right, because there's the definition could be played with in how you view it. Right, I would say that there's a lot of things that we do that are criminal, but you never get charged for every time you jaywalk, that's a crime.

No way ever gets a ticket for it. That doesn't mean it wasn't a crime.

Right, Spitting on the street is the crime.

Now you're looking. So you're in a strip club, you're giving money, you're doing that, and people say, well, how is that any different? How is that any different?

Well, when the federal government gets involved and you flying people and you driving people, this is what see, that's the nuance, right The federal government said, y'all, caul do what you want in the state. But if we want to do something, we're just going to look at how you travel because we got the underlying act. How do we get in our jurisdiction. Oh you jumped on eighty seven. Oh you took ninety five. Oh you went from Newark, you flew all that is us And if they want you,

For I'm not.

Saying what I'm saying.

What we say. What we're saying.

We're saying is that if I control your thinking, I ain't gonta worry about your actions.

So why didn't she leave? Did I control her thinking? I ain't gotta worry about leaving?

Why didn't he tell? Did I control this thinking? I ain't gonna worry about him telling?

Now?

How do you control ones? Thinking? Low self esteem? Give you some money? However you do it, you do it.

But people think if while I'm buying you gifts, Right, if a person is buying you gifts, then that means that you want the lifestyle, you want, the things you want, whatever the job that I can offer you. Right, you are yourself in a situation where you know that I'm X amount of problematic things. But because you're trying to get to a means, then the ends justify it. And I'm not saying I agree with that at all.

But this and it's a dynamic. Right.

It's like women say, I want to deal with a powerful man. I like power. I'm intrigued by power a man can lead. I want to live the soft life. Want a man that can control that could tell me, hey, you shut up and you listen to me, and you aspire to get a.

Man like that.

Right, So there are men out here that I've had conversations with men that said, we are actually punishing a man because he got good gain now and he's powerful, and we're saying that a woman who succeeds to that power, right, becomes susceptible to that power and allows you to utilize that power and gains from that power, takes the money, enjoys all of the accolades that come with that power. The minute that she no longer wants to succeeds become susceptible to that, it becomes a crown.

Well.

See, nobody's nobody's going to accept that as anywhere near what they would teach their loved ones, because you have societal norms and societal norms. Even though I like a man that's powerful, or I like a woman that's powerful, I don't want them choking me out.

Oh no, we're not talking about the physical.

Right, Yeah, because I don't want.

Yeah, I don't want.

Because that's that's the problem.

You can't make a straight vegan cake without mixing something in it. You gotta like, you gotta the cake, gotta have some weight, have some substance.

In it.

It may not have any flower, but it's gonna have some assimilation of flower. It's gonna have something.

So you can't talk about anything in isolation because it's all cole mingled. Nothing could be talked about in isolation. And I think for the most part, we may speak in isolation. We may speak in isolation like, oh, well, you know, she wanted them whoever she may be, or he wanted a powerful woman. All right, he did to what degree? That's where the nuances come in. They come in and what degree? What degree are we talking about?

Is it this much or is it this much? And that's where societal norms come in. Is it this much or is it this much? And that's what the jury will decide.

That will decide. I've been saying it's gonna be rough.

It's rough on both ends because I don't think no man, woman, or anybody of good conscious look at him beating Cassie and says that that was okay. I just don't think there's nobody saying, nah, she deserved Everybody saying whatever he deserved for beating that woman.

He needs to get it.

But I also think that there are a lot of people that are saying, when you look at the dynamic up, they.

Were in a toxic relationship.

A lot of people saying this is a toxic relationship, and a lot of people have been in toxic relationships. And when you look at over a ten year span, you look at text message, look at communication they have, there was levels of love there, there was communication, There was dictated a lot of stuff. It was time that they actually showed where she was like, Oh, I want to do this freakom. He's like, Nah, you should just relax. You should go home. You got a movie deal, you got all these things.

Relax. We don't got to do that. We need to come back.

There were times where you can just see that there was love in this situation. And what this this trial is portraying is that there was this manipulative evil man that just controlled this woman and she had no right, she had no power over us. And I think that's the dynamic that a lot of people are struggling with.

And naked look, they can struggle.

I mean, I'm not going to say that they shouldn't, but what I'm saying is that you mentioned it is an eight week trial.

We on day week and one day and that the case.

She is not being tried for what he did to Cassie and or be all, that's not the that's not the case.

That's not that would be a short case.

We got eight weeks of other stuff that quite frankly, I hope our community pays attention to one way.

Or that's what, because that's.

That's not.

Like I said, the real is to pay attention and I.

Like, keep the main thing the main thing, look at the other thing, look at well, how many more receipts we're going to see of somebody flying somewhere in and out.

After a while, you're gonna get tired of seeing receipts? How many times we're going to hear? And that's the guts.

Whether they can prove or not proof, that's that's right, and not being frosting, that's the gut.

You know, I've heard a lot of people.

First of its.

First of all, I want to name something that I think is important that it has come up in the Shannon Sharp situation as well. Right, power dynamics are very, very very important.

You see it in corporate America all.

Day every day, and that's why you can't sleep with and mix with people on your.

Staff that are can't joke with.

There's no you look good, you look nice today because I don't know how you perceive that about that boss and you're the subordinated.

You got to just do the job.

It is very important that people take away the main things from this trial, and like I said, the Shannon Sharp situation that you can't you have to be very careful when you have power and money about how you operate with people who have less than you.

With all people, with all people, with.

All people, but with people who have less than you, there's always going to be a view that you were in control because you had the ability to move and maneuver things that another person or that other person did

Do you think about Cassie is married to a trainer.

Yeah, but I'm not so when we when we have.

In these cops, there's a there's a power dynamic in every situation, right, there's a power dynamic. And we and and and I'm not and I just want you to understand that we have in these conversations and there was a whole thing and I'm not bringing up any names, but there was a whole thing where they showed the dynamics of black men in powers dynamics and white men in power dynamics, and most of the white men in the same positions who have done way we know have

We can go from.

Bill Kysy, Michael Jackson shit where we can look at every powerful man and that was black. There was a complete attack by the media everything to completely crush their whole appearance. They are white men who have been charged with the same thing Robert Kraft and got caught doing some sexual shit that should disappeared within a week. They

It never happened.

So we not say we can say that there's a power that we gotta say the thing is the thing that black men in power have to be way more careful than every other man in power.

And I'm and I'm saying that I want the system to be just and I want us to do just things. I'm saying that just because there is this issue where we know we as black people in general, not just black men, face discrimination and what is the word that the rules do not always apply or the rules always apply for us and don't always apply for other people. Just because all of that is true does not make me incapable of also seeing fault when fault is present

Well, I'm not saying I am not saying you are.

I'm saying I know what I've the conversations that I've been having with people, not just about Puff, because people know not to really talk to me about Puff, because, as I've already said, I understand that we all are walking contradictions. When you love people, it is harder, especially me, never seeing Puff do any of these things. Right, Like, I don't know him as this person. I know him as a person who was always kind, supportive of me, helpful,

But there are other scenarios where I have had black men.

Say to me, oh, well, such and such beat so and so the white man did it, or the so and so did it, And now all of a sudden, because I did it all because my brother or my cousin did it. Now this means that I you know, it's it's unfair. Well, first of all, we live in unfair reality. And if we know that, then we already know because we say things all the time.

As a black person, I know better. I'm not doing this.

I'm not going running through a community, you know, and you tell your kids, don't you go running through them people neighborhood at night, because you know what can happen.

But basically, that's exactly what I was saying.

We are black.

So when you say as men, there's a power dynamic, it's not as men. It's not when we look at it in totality, it's not. The rules do not apply to all men the way that they apply to black men. And that's all I'm trying to say, and I'm not saying is when we talk about physical abuse and all that, I'm not even talking.

I'm talking about the power dynamic.

When we look at the power dynamic, black men are scrutinized way more in these power done them. We got Cromo's accus now he's running for the man tomorrow. We got all these things that disappear. It don't disappear for black men. T I went through, whatever you went through, they said this didn't happen. Nobody said sorry, nobody gives a fuck. So these are realities that black men deal

But that's the story that we've been saying. I mean, we're born into that, right, we know that, right. And so I think where some folks get misled is that they buy into that it's.

Not gonna happen to me.

And once you once you, once you lift up the shade a little bit and you think it's not going to happened to you, that's when it happens to you. That's just that's just how it happens, period, and whether right or wrong, Shannon Sharp or not. Whoever, if you think that you are not on the eye of the tiger, you wrong.

You should act as if you always.

Someone's always looking at you and looking for you, period, men and women, period.

That's it.

If they got to find something and they going to contrite. Our community is more than happy to be behind you. When there's something that's contrite, you're just trying to find something. But when something has some meat on the bone, you got a problem.

And that's irrespective of this case right here.

So we talked about nuance today that these all these these things because you had said early in my son that reco charges are designed for you not to be able to beat them.

Yeah, agree with that.

I would agree, I would, I would, I would agree.

So let me let me say I agree in the sentiment, I don't necessarily agree with the words.

Right.

Rico speaks to conspiracy and two or more and a whole litany of crimes that you can commit and can you beat it if you act by yourself, But if there's other people that are around you that acting.

Everybody has a.

Soft soft spot you can get in this situation that has nothing to do with this case and decide that this is the best thing that's got me going. I mean that that's just the reality.

That's just so we got we can look at we can look at situations like Brian Benjamin, like when they start coming with you, Rico, you don't have they don't most of the time, they don't have nothing to do with nothing.

You don't.

And they got one person like he said, got nothing to do with this case, but he's a rested for something else. And he said, well, you know, I might have done this or he might have said this to me and next thing you know, And it's but I'm just trying to tell you that we just judge a little different. This is my person. We definitely judge it.

No I can walking in and as a prosecutor, yeah, we're definitely judged a whole lot different.

But I can't accept that from you as a defendant, that you didn't understand that part about America, Like that's the part that's the part that we like, we're.

Gonna we're gonna rock out, we're gonna scramble, but a lot of times you gotta understand.

But that's what that's what.

The power dynamic does right when you look at powerful man that's been powerful for thirty years and you're hanging around these white men and they're doing the same shit, and you forget.

You start thinking we're on the same level they doing it.

Oh, this is okay, good, And it just seems like you could do like you said, you commit crimes every day. Because I know that there are people who got caught up in these types of cases didn't even know at all. They really truly did not understand that they were involved with or helping to further because I kept reading that that's right, helping to further.

So the wall You.

Went and picked somebody up from the airport, Dang, well, you thought it was like he told me to pick up something or she.

But if he mentions to you on the way out the car, I'm about to go smoke this thing or do this thing or whatever.

Then does that And I still don't.

Understand how if I picked you up and took to the airport or from there or whatever, the hell, how do I become a part of something where you did not explicitly say to me, I'm getting ready to go by these drugs.

Hey, federal government has a burden of proof, Nigga present is the.

Words called inference.

How can you be involved with all this and not infer and know what's going on? Like you didn't know, like you picking up that wasn't a famous singer. You picked up from the from the airport, you know that, right? And you bring them idle conversation happens everybody when they get in the car. They know, you know, talk happens. Things happen. You'll go downstairs.

Now, can you take me?

Matter of fact, man, take me by this spot, my man, I know to whatever.

Yo, that's a lot though. That's not not really fair.

It's not it's not and it's not designed to be fair, that's what.

It's not fair.

But because I didn't when you when I went by to go get the crack, I mean I took you over there, I don't know what the hell. You're a grown ass person. You're going there to get the crack? What does this have to do with my life?

And maybe maybe maybe that's maybe that's why you're not.

Charged because I'm with the law.

But maybe that's what I'm Maybe that's why you're not charged.

But you're away because because you you know that I just did this. But if you get and this is what we started at the piece of the puzzle, I just did this.

I just did this.

I just did Now you start to build a framework and then you get a couple of more They just.

Did this, They just did that. They just did that. That's what it's all about.

So here's two things that have that also have have This case has highlighted people under NDAs because there was a woman who testified that she signed it an NDA that Cassie gave her after she was assaulted by Puff and he supposedly paid her. That's what she said, but she was under the NDA because she signed it. She said that, so people want to know how.

Does she end up in court?

And then the biggest thing is folks are saying, Cassie took a settlement from Puff, So how does she now become a witness in this case?

Because you're talking about criminality, civil and criminal two different worlds, and the federal government and the US Attorney's Office they do not care about what's going on in the civil world. Matter of fact, when you look at separation.

Agreements, when you leave your job right things are not working out, they give you a separation agreement.

It will talk about. You can't talk about the settlement. You can't disclose.

Why you laugh, you can't disparage, you.

Can't do any of those things. But there's always that one paragraph. Uh oh, there's always that one paragraph that speaks to.

I'm sorry, put the phone back.

Yeah, okay, all right.

Now where you want to start. No, it's always that one paragraph that speaks to that. If there's a federal investigation, if there's a state investigation, if there's an EEOC investigation.

That's off.

The only thing you will see in reference to that is that you got to let us know.

The employee says, you got to.

Let us know.

We can't intercede, We can't talk to you first, but you gotta let us know. Same thing here you can have all Let's just say she breached the NDA, and everybody's up in arms, and she happens to breach the NDA that you drafted inside. Let's say you will quit it. Let's just say where you think you're gonna suit her for breaching the NDA? What court you think you're gonna go to?

I say, you know, I say it very you know lightly. What court you're gonna go to?

None? You can't.

No wonder, no judge, no judge is gonna say, you know what, you're right, You're right. Fifty thousand dollars. You win because she breached the NDA, because the federal government came to her and said, we want to know about criminality.

You have nowhere to go.

So once again, don't do it, because just don't do the thing.

Well, just don't do it. There we go.

Just don't do the thing.

Just don't do just don't do the thing.

So what I was what I wanted to ask as the final question, is, so you know, I've there's been a lot of talk about this Meg and Tory Lanez quote unquote.

Newly discovered evidence.

So what they're saying is that a driver who was driving her to court, her who was driving Kelsey to court, who is Meg's friend, who was driving her to court back and forth for the two days that she went to trial, overheard her saying that quote I don't know exact words, that she's the one who shot Meg and that he blocked the gun on her hand. Is this newly discovered evidence or is it hearsay? Can it be presented as newly discovered evidence or is it just heresay?

Evidence.

Well, it's both, and it's always a hearsay exception. So things are allowed because you have a.

Rule, and you have an exception.

If someone is making a statement, a statement that is involving involving an investigation or involving prior testimony and you know it, then it's new evidence. The issue is how relevant is it, how relevant is it to the bigger piece, and whether or not and how it could be used. So that's really the question, because there's always exceptions to

Or not can come in.

So that and who makes that decision A judge, a judge.

The prosecutity to say argue for or against it.

Defense are either argue for or against it or judge and making decisions.

And this was the same judge that was on the case that would make that decision, or a new judge could be.

It all depends. It all depends. That is not a fast fast rule. It all depends because sometimes what happens in federal court. In most courts, you have judges that will deal with all the logistical motions and all the suppressions and all those hearings, and then you have the judge just tries the case.

But now, in this particular situation, I think Kelsey did the the fifth or she.

Was granted immunity.

Actually right, she was granted immunity, so they can bring the new evidence against her, and then the courts can decide again because people need to know that all these things, the NDA, the immunity whether not violates.

Any any any immunity clause, you know, and then they make that decision.

And so they could yeah, because people believe if I say I I have immunity, or if I signed an n DA or whatever, then I'm out of it. And what we're hearing here is that that's not the case.

So I think the best way to describe it is immunity is usually for criminal conduct, like, look, I'm immune from anything that goes on because you deem my information so valuable.

NDA is for.

The civil context, never should they meet, and if they meet, criminal is always going.

To take over.

So the criminal in this situation, even though she had immunity from a criminal act. Yes, it's still if new evidence means it's a new.

New situation, because that means that.

She right, But you don't get free the person who was convicted, do they get free?

But it depends, it depends.

It depends, depends on the relevance of it. Right, So it might be a small factor that wouldn't have changed the jurist perspective. So it's called this is what they call it. They call it harmless era. It was an error, but it was harmless. Now I would tell you if I'm behind bars, ain't nothing harmless.

It's an era.

Let's let's let's let's get it, let's do it, let's do it, do over.

But the courts will look at all the factors, look at all the evidence and say this is harmless eraror.

So in the history of your life, which, by the way, whatever, we can't say because people do crazy things. What is the likelihood from your perspective that a woman who was god immunity playing all kinds of games on the stand. You know, just I followed this case very closely. I went to the trial.

You know.

Definitely, it appears there was some money exchange when they asked her who paid for her lawyers? She don't know. She you know, all of that, all of these things. What is the likelihood that she would get in the car with a driver who she does not know, not a driver who's she's known for years and years, driver she doesn't know, in a couple of days back and forth to court and just sit there on the phone telling people.

Yeah, I'm the one who shot the girl.

So what was the question? Was it like that she would say.

Something that she would just that would be something that a judge would look at and say, oh, this.

Is the judge dunkin, look at it.

Look at it.

Somebody's gonna bring it to the judge's tape right now. What is it likely? That's a hard question to answer. People people are stupid.

Right they are? Are? They are? I swear they.

Are stupid, right, And we'll all due respect. People are just stupid.

And so would that be the first thing that we saw a stupid person do.

No, that's why we got them stupid.

So now I don't from the respective of the driver, this is what I look at it. If I'm a judge, why would you contrive a story and put yourself in a case that you never in a case before.

Well that he said it's because he feels bad.

Why would you make up a story? The reason why you come forward is because.

You feel bad.

Why you would make up something that's not true. That's a whole nother story. So the judge has to say, is this person making that up? Or did this happen?

And they're coming for it because of what you said.

The dynamics.

Where the driver come from the driver community.

And I'm for I, like I always say, and it's the same thing that I say about the situation with Paul. As much as I love him, I believe that he has to face these charges right like he has to. You can't just be like, well, I love somebody or I believe such and such, so let's just brush it. No, it don't work like that. If they are women who are saying or men saying they've been abused, I believe everybody deserves their day in court. People look at me,

For people to be able to see it play out.

Then if it feels like nothing happened and a black man was just railroaded, I understand that.

I mean, that's why we have jurors, and that's why everybody has the right to.

Confront their witnesses. Yeah, it's called confrontational clause. You got a right to confront and what comes out comes out.

Well, that was great.

It's a long interview that would have to be edited, poor Janet, But I think we did talk about some important things and I just know that, you know, I'll be trying to follow the law. I ain't saying that I get things right all the time, and I'm not talking about from a law perspective. I'm just saying in life, we all have issues, but the.

Law, the rules.

I be trying my best to stay within them unless I'm breaking them on behalf of our people.

And other than that, I don't you know, And that's a whole other dynamic.

Right, You're just talking about black on black on black on black and you got white jurorsdy and it's just like, this is what you're doing, right.

There's no empathy or sympathy. That's what you're That's what y'all do. And I tell people this all the time.

But if we were empowered and everything was black, we would still have the same dynamics that exists. There'll be less of blacks in the pool of blacks mm hm, and they'll be underprivileged blacks in a pool of blacks, and you still have the dynamic that you have, you know what I mean. I would love to be in that world. But you're still gonna have the same classism and the dynamics that you have. Once classism comes into play,

Of slice of bread.

Thank you so much.

Attorney Royce Russell thanks for joining us, thank you for being on the TMO Show today, and just thank you for being you always, always, thank you.

For having.

Race gave us a lot of good feedback about how we see it, you know, because there's a lot, like I've said, there's a lot of different questions about Puffy's case, and you know, how the reco thing is working, how the sex trafficking thing works, and not a thing.

It is a thing.

It's not It's really not it's not. No, it's not the sex trafficking thing. I think we have to be very mindful and careful and sex trafficking charges, how reco charges and sex trafficking charges not the thing, sir?

What?

No, Okay, forget it. I'm wrong.

I just don't understand, like we know that they're charges. I'm saying, the sex trafficking thing. The thing that it is is sex trafficking, and those happen to be charges. Well, we just got to make it this particular thing.

No, it's not that.

It's just that I think we have to be mindful that the level of seriousness that we apply to it when speaking is the level of seriousness that I think our people will understand. How they can be incriminating themselves. So that's the reason why I said it. But the thing is fine, It's just that I get a sense from some of our folks that, you know, to Royce's point, it won't happen.

To me, or I can dibble and dabble a little bit.

And to your point, our young men need to really really be mindful and women and women need to really be mindful that a little something could turn into a big something and you be messed up for a long time.

It's very, very troubling, you know, when you look at the implications, when you look at the reality of what we're dealing with in just the justice system or in just black men, to see it as an injustice system. And it's not saying that this situation is injustice because a man should be held accountable for everything he does.

But we just know, like you said, when.

White people get twenty years, we're gonna get two hundred years. So this is just the reality. So that's what I'm saying. We have to be mindful of exactly what's going on. We have to understand that the legal system was never meant to show us justice or fairness. And then we also have to understand that you're going to be held accountable for the things that you do.

Well, yeah, and I think there are people out here that would argue Mice that when you say that, you know, it gives people a way to argue about something other than the situation, which I get your point is that that's a part of the situation. Well, right, Well, if we have to look at the situation, because I wasn't we're trying to say puff or Cassie or this person at that person, because there's so so many different people with arguments and thoughts and whatever.

I'm just saying that I find whenever we.

Are able to say, well, you know, the black man isn't treated fairly in the system. I noticed that a lot of people are saying that and using it as an excuse.

Why I wouldn't say it's an excuse, It's just a reality. And that doesn't take away that if you do a crime, and you should be held accountable for the crime you do. But we can't ignore the fact that when you say, when we talk about a rico charge, and even though Royce said, well it doesn't they never said that it had to be other people involved in rigal. We can't ignore the fact that the only time those things didn't happen, that there weren't other co defenders, that it was two black men.

Yeah, I just.

But that's the fact.

But okay, but you didn't say that when you asked Royce, you said, I'm not one hundred percent sure, but this is what I heard, and if that is true.

And when he said.

We never said he never you or not because we don't know. We don't know, And what happens is that becomes if it is not true, right, that true? No, But the problem is that people never stick around for correction.

They never hear that.

So when we state things like that that we don't necessarily know if it's true or not, it becomes a part of this No, I.

Said, we can't ignore okay, so let me change it. Let me change the verbage. We can't ignore it that if that is true, right, because I've That's why when it was that's why most of us who've been in the legal system, who are just as impacted, we're confused because I have yet to see any other reco charge with their weren't code efan.

But that's a But that's the first of all, I think that.

I agree with that that I usually see a bunch of people that are involved at least more than two people. But I would always caution us because what we're really saying is we haven't seen it in high profile cases because none of us us know about every case from people who live from Utah to Alabama to nobody knows that, and so you can't say what has only happened to R. Kelly and Puff when we don't know, right, perhaps from

Ain't nobody Once again, nobody is not addressed, afraid or ignoring the issues at hand. If someone did something wrong, they should be held accountable, but nobody should ignore that. Based on the knowledge that we have that I've had, and I've seen many people. I got friends that's been locked up for ricos, I know strangers that be locked up for ricos.

I have never.

Seen anybody outside of those because I wasn't even thinking about the Kelly case when it was actually set until your bads brought up I got the information on your baths.

I don't know.

I didn't actually double check it, but I heard him say it, and he said it confidently. So if I'm wrong or if well he's wrong, then we'll correct it. But I've yet I know this for a fact. I've never seen a federal recocase where there was only one defender outside of those two situations. And I didn't even realize that they had charged l Kelly with the federal recoacher. I just never seen it before, you know what I'm saying, that was something I've never seen before. So just saying

Happen, right because because the criminal enterprise is the fact that multiple people participated in.

I told you I read this. That's why I kept.

Saying I was arguing with different people because I went to go read all of it so that I could understand from various perspectives what's happened. In a way, what am I seeing and what I kept reading was people who helped further further, so further means that you assisted me in doing this thing.

It does not mean that you were the particular.

Entity or damn subject of it, but you helped further it. So I guess what we're hearing from Royce is that as long as those people have something that corroborates or provides evidence that you were using and bringing different people into this criminal activity, then that somehow that makes their case. So that for me, again putting this particular legal matter to the side, but just sitting and focused on how we live every single day. He's saying, you picking up people,

And that's what I'm trying to say.

That's the Sari.

That's why I said the Rico charge was designed for you not to be able to be there.

It was first initiated to rich mafia bosses.

That's how they put them under the stature because a lot of people didn't want to tell on people. So they figured out a way that we can make sure that it's no way that you're not guilty of something.

The fact that you know this.

Person and if we have an inkland that you know him and you was aware that he was ever committed criminal acts and you still continue to deal with him, and you did anything we could connect you to that,

So most what happens is.

People cop out because they're like, yo, I know this person, and I probably knew he was locked up before, but I think we was going to do this.

My man was sitting in jail for a RICO charging.

The room because the dude walks that he walked by the room and he think he's seen him sitting there, right, And somebody else said that they was gonna kill somebody, and they said that they thought they seen him in the room. He didn't have nothing to do with the murder. He didn't do anything niggative. Twenty five years, twenty five years. So this shit is is not designed for you to win.

And that's the problem with these types of cases is that it's triggering other conversations that you know, because when I get down to the bottom line in different dialogues with people, and a lot of people, like I said, they won't bring this case up to me, not really because they understand, you know, what issues I have in terms of not having people going and reporting that to Meek Mallory said this, that and the third thing, we're not doing that right.

And so they know.

But men, some of the men in my life have had extensive conversations and I realize as I'm talking to them, they're dealing with a trauma that is far beyond this case. But then that trauma, and I guess women do this as well, becomes a part of another. And and I'm saying, like, just hear yourself. Hear what you're saying. Say that back to yourself and put your son or your daughter or whatever in that situation. And then they'll be like, well,

And I'm just the.

Just walking around like nothing, moving around with zip ties and laundry bags in the trunk, and I'm just happy to be there, knowing, knowing my son that I don't have anything to do with any of this. So when they asked me, I'm going to say, I don't know nothing about that, and they gotta let me go because I'm not on no tape. I didn't go nowhere, I didn't do nothing. And what I'm hearing is it don't work like that.

Don't work like that, do not work like that.

They're gonna you saw something with you telling us you saw the money, because we need you to testify that you.

But I don't want to testify it because I don't even know.

That's where the rico comes in, because the fact that you saw the money and the money was part of this criminal enterprise, and you saw zip ties and and you saw those things, and you your your logical mind should have told you that there was a legal activity.

And if I really didn't think to swear and it.

Took me, you should have thought it. And if we're gonna say, if you don't testify to what you saw, then we're gonna say that you was accomplished. And that's how it that, that's how that's what they do. So that's what I'm trying to tell you. That's why it's not it's not designed.

For us to win.

But it's also triggering, right because you know, as a black man, and you look at whether they're guilty or not, it just seems to me like all of our black men who reach a certain status, it's something that has to do with sexual assault. It's not all I'm talking the ones, the ones that they eliminate, the ones that have eliminated. It's the same situation. And I'm not saying it's not true or whatever. I'm just saying when we look at the top men who have been eliminated, is

It's like, but I think that that is a conversation.

For It's a conversation that needs to be had.

Yes, is the system problematic, for sure, But it's also about the choices that we.

Make, and when.

We mix drugs with money and power, the lines get real blurred and a lot of things happen, and then you have stupidity. Also because I'm gonna say, until the wheels fall off the bus that Shannon Sharp, that was just stupid. And I'm not talking about drugs or any of that. I'm not accusing him of anything like that, But I'm just saying, the judgment of being fifty something and getting yourself involved with a nineteen whatever age, twenty

And by the way, they don't have anything to lose.

And I hear everything you're saying.

So we gotta be more mindful of the choices we made.

Reality is most of the eighty year old Richmon. We know it's dating forty women forty and fifty years young.

Why do y'all not understand.

I'm just telling you. I'm not saying we don't understand. We already established we understand. It's a different playbook.

No, that's not what I'm saying. Is but that wasn't what I was going to say. Why do y'all not understand that there is a difference in the mind of a nineteen twenty year old and a forty year old, so you can be.

You don't think it's a difference in a month of if I'm eighty and you're thirty.

No, you don't think that.

You're no thirty, thirty, thirty.

These eighty year olds is dad in twenty three and twenty four?

And I think that that's a problem. I think that's a problem. But I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if I'm forty and even thirty something and you're eighty or your seventy, that is a big different. Friends, between you being forty and fifty and this per and this person woman or man nineteen.

His mine may be depraved. He's getting he's losing his he's losing his forty year old.

As you start getting eighty, ad man, Yeah, as.

You start getting older, your mind you losing capacity. Actually a lot of men are losing Why not.

You don't think it's okay?

You don't think so, because y'all as you know that you we know that that woman.

Is pure eighty years old.

We know that the average eighty twenty something year old woman, that's what the eighty old man is there for one reason, this is the bottom line, that's it.

Well, and then guess what happens when the man throw you out and mistreat you.

I don't want to hear it, but you're gonna.

Hear it, because what happens is they gonna say that something went wrong and you still got a man still gonna be held accountable. So that's his the reect. So that pretty much brings me to my I don't get it. Like I asked Royce about, you know, the situation with Meg and the new evidence in Tory Lane's case, I just don't get why Kelsey is not being arrested right. And my theory behind it is this, I still you know, am I believe that you know, the court got it right.

All these things.

Changed, right, So whatever happened in that dynamic, she was intentionally trying to obstruct justice. And if she got on that stand and she shot that lady and she didn't. When she was asked, did she shoot Meghan, she said no. And if they're saying now that there's evidence saying that she did, and it's going to be presented, then she should be either charged with shooting her and them saying that she lied about saying that she didn't shoot up.

And but we didn't get a chance to ask Royce once you had immunity, No, but we did, because.

Yeah, we did say he said that. It's a whole different thing. It's obstructing justice that you it's perjury because if you get.

Immunity, that's just because you have immunity is for the purpose of you telling the truth, no matter how incriminate, and it.

Is exactly and if they find out that you lied anytime during giving that statement, then the community goes out the window. Right, that's what they do, like they give they have had my bosses say, they say, tell us all about everybody, and we're gonna give you immunity, and everything is covered. If they find out one thing outside of that is not covered in an immunity, right, they find out you lied about one of those things, then the whole thing goes off the table.

So in this situation, this lady committed perjury. One way or another.

She committed perjury and she's obstructed justice. And I think you know, Tory Lane's trying to figure out how to get home. He's gonna figure out everything, he gonna pull every stop. That's what happens when you're in prison, right, wrong difference, nobody wants to sit in jail for ten years.

I think Megan was trying to get justice for her. She believed that this happened.

I don't think to be in jail.

She should be in jail.

I think, Kelsey, you think she.

Should be doing I'm saying, if you're going you do you.

Believe that a trial should take place.

I believe this. I believe this. I think there should be a hearing.

But I think either one of these two things makes you more comfortable than anybody to me, because if you are the person who were trying to shoot Meg and Tory and you allowed him to go to jail for shooting her, then you should be in jail, which is not I don't based on evidence, I don't really see that. But if that's what it is, and we find out

Else that's that brave or that heroic. Right.

You can't say that you were trying to protect Meg in my system, because you spent over a year gas lighting the woman, saying that it was gonna come out in court and the truth would be known and all these things, and you didn't do those things. So when you now, all of a sudden you were trying to protect two black women, it doesn't really make sense to me. But let's say that theory is true. Kelsey should be

Position, I don't.

I just feel like we're living in a world that is so weird that I don't even know how to discuss it. There's nothing, there's no amount of money you could pay me to make me believe that that woman was in the car with a man she don't know, that she just met, and that she just said in front of that man casually that she was the person responsible for killing or excuse me for shooting Meggie Stallion.

There is nothing nobody could pay me.

But to your point, just like I said about all these other people, if someone brings that type of charge against you, or they feel like they know and they think they can prove it, they deserve to have their day in court. And so I want to see it play out. I want to see it play out anyway, As I already said that, I want to see it play out because I want I just want to see it play out. I want to see what happens with the court. I want to see it all display out too.

But I'm gonna give a breakdown on my YouTube page about this because I really have real deep conversation. I don't want to go dive too deep into it here, but it's just a lot. It's really it's really telling where we are in media, social media, just in this world, and how a narrative can be spun so deep that it's in this rabbit hole that the facts get so muddy and misconstrued that people ignore the facts and we

Kelsey didn't have a bodyguard.

This is a driver who drove, drove to her, drove with her for probably about an hour or two hours within the two days period to go to court in home. Right, this is within the two But they say this is her bodyguard. Nobody even is doing the research to say, no, oh, this was.

The driver who drove he to court. Where did this driver even come from her?

Where did she get a She didn't know how, she didn't know.

She didn't even know who paid for her lawyers. They asked her, pay for your lawyer?

Maybe she was and then she was, or don't know.

This man and the man and the man sat there heard this with a person. He doesn't know that he has no particular loyalty he doesn't know her. And another man was going through this and he sat there and said, Nah, you know, I ain't gonna say nothing because I'm loyal to this girl who's in here ad knitting in front of me.

Y'all got it. I mean, if that's what y'all want to run with, I'm cool with it.

I'm not I wouldn't sit here and say, oh, this is stupid that it needs to just be dismissed. No, I think they should go right on down the Let's all I know is that, did you I went to court.

That's all I'm gonna keep saying. So I went to court, and I know.

What the jury heard and all of the ship that that gets the social media jury, that's not the one that be in the court, and the court is the real jury.

Right now? Can juries be biased? Absolutely?

Did this jury just see him as a black man that they want to send to jail from the look the makeup of the jurors.

I don't think so.

But it's possible that there was some bias in every single one of those jurors. Mine that was of a cross section of racial backgrounds.

It's not like the white, all white jury.

You know, this is it was a cross stction of individuals where they biased and they just want to throw them in jail. Cool was the judge paid off? And because you know that'sn't gonna be their thing. Rock Nation paid for the prosecutor, the judge, the jury, everything, every single body, every party.

If you could say, it becomes fact.

Don and I.

But I pray that they find a way to prove every other people.

Wrong if they can.

And after all, I'm just leaving at that because tell you the truth.

I think.

I think focus, I sit back and I listen, and I see certain things in certain people, and I just say to myself.

Wow, we're in some very strange times. Wow, we're in very strange times. But there's that man that brings us to an end of another episode of t M. I make sure you continue to follow us. Tell us you love us, tell us you hate us.

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