Reclaiming Our Future

that's that. But now now it's it's good to be in Studio two and to see the entire Street Politicians team, folks that have been working to make this show the greatest, and it's a good feeling to be at work. Our panel today is probably going to be a deep, long discussion. I'm excited about it. I want to see what you did. You know what You put this together all by your loan, so and I wanna I'm excited to get to that. So. I don't want us to sit and be labored. It's

so much happening in this country, so much happening. There is the debate that's happening over the Philip Bus to being changed so that they could get voting rights past and Washington that's actually started yesterday. There's developments there Um, there's things happening with uh COVID nineteen and and the vaccinations. Looks like nike UM has laid off or fired several

of their employees who were not vaccinated. So over this past weekend, several people who were not vaccinated have been terminated because the policy went into effect in October that they would have to be vaccinated in the deadline was January. So you have that happening. You've got kids walking the schools because they feel unsafe. You've got mayors like our mayor in New York, um Eric Adams, saying that this

this city, the world has to open up. And I actually agree, Um, you know, and I don't agree with Eric on all the things, but I do agree with him that the city has to open. The country has to open. Too many people don't have jobs. And by the way, the federal government is not sending all of this money for that it was sending in the past. So we got to get people back to work. Yeah, people got to get back to work. Somehow. We're not getting rid of COVID, the CDC and others within the

federal system. Whatever health experts say. We've got to live with COVID. The same way we do the flu, the same way we do all these other things that we deal with, and we gotta we have to figure out how to work it out. And that doesn't mean that I don't understand students who in their schools aren't getting the proper testing equipment, the proper mask, the proper sanitizing, you know, things that they need in support so that

they can be well. And they're saying hell no, because when you say the city has to open up, there's there also should be mechanisms for dealing with people who have health concerns and challenges. So there's a lot of stuff going on. Even with that. I mean, they're shootings happening. Still. I think I saw something which I don't watch. I

don't even your page. I can't it's too traumatic. Um, sometimes you have funny stuff on their Well, you have something on there that I appreciate the other day, which I'll go to that next. But um, but you had something on there about a woman being stabbed or yeah, in the bronx the of the day. Um, five in the morning, two men beat and stabbed the women, just her. It didn't seem like they asked us some questions and just start stabbing on the back and a torso and beating,

a kicking. It was just I just don't like, I said, co coaches at an old time, huh. And it seems I don't know what it is. I've been seeing a lot of this in the Bronx where um men are just really assaulting, stabbing, cutting, beating, trying to rob women. And I think, you know, as men, we have to do a lot. We have to do a lot of work to take back our communities. Man. People can't feel comfortable like we have to make those types of people feel like, yo, we can't even be seen out here.

You know. We have we got to protect our communities, man. I think it's time that we definitely got to step up and just be those star warks in our community that protect our women and children. But it's not just um in the Bronx, although the Bronx has really been wildent like and it's crazy because I tell people I live in the Bronx and they look at me like, oh, you know, and I mean poverty to you know, poverty. We have the highest poverty rate in the in the

state of New York. I don't know, because upstate it's pretty bad. I'm just saying, what that's what they said. I just read what they said that it's the poorer. Yeah, I mean maybe, but I'm just saying maybe they're talking about in the city, because in the state of New York, upstate, there's some places that are it's really really bad. So

I guess maybe in the city. But nonetheless, it's not just there, because we just went to a vigil last week for a young girl who was working at Burger King and the man went in there and asked her to give the money. She gave everything that was in the register, and he still shot her to death. So it's like it just it never it's never ending. It's all across not just the city, it's all across the nation. We have to travel this weekend to Las Vegas, where

there's violence happening. We're hearing that. I was I was saying, well, you know, the the organizers were working with. I said, well, can we um, you know, go to the hood and have our event there, you know, And I was trying to work it up and she was like, oh no, the shootings are not just happening in the hood. It's on the strip, it's in just the regular mall anywhere, it's anywhere, and it doesn't make sense. It's not all

gang related, it's just violence. It's just it's breaking out everywhere. And so you know, um, it's a lot happening, and I think you know, And we spend a lot of time focused on Soldier Boys. Pictures were released and you know, we won't talk about that on the show, but honey, but anyway, that happens. And then Kodak Black gets a lap dance or whatever, turk dance and the thing and this happened to happen. And when we're really focused on that, you see the comments section light up, and I don't.

I'm not saying we shouldn't. I'm saying there still needs to be joy. There still needs to be things to take your mind off the trauma. But when somebody's talking about voting rights or talking about other things that matter, they are less people engaged. I'm again not trying to take away folks ability to enjoy and to take their

mind off all these other crises. But we have to be equally engaged because guess what our opponents, the people who work against us, they are They are methodical, strategic, they are relentless, they are patient, they spend their money together. I mean, these folks are very very much so invested in their lives, their world and the world that they want to see. They're building it, they're building it, they're

fighting for it now. And then that brings me to the money conversation and what was on your page that I did appreciate this Kyrie irving peace. Now all of a sudden, well maybe he can play in New York

if we are willing to pay a find. But that's always the thing about it is that that's always been It's always been the demandates were but funds because if you didn't, if you didn't um follow mandate, then there was a fun you had to pay a thousand knowledge, then another thousand and two thousands, then ultimately it was five five thousand dollars every time. So for me, it's like, why wouldn't he just why wouldn't they let him do that? Anyway?

Because if he's testing and he doesn't have COVID and he's playing their games anyway, they are different teams that every and it's not the mandate of the NBA anyway, you know, the whole NBA doesn't have a mandate it's just certain states exactly. Certain states have mandates. So they're NBA players who just not vaccinated anyway, and they all

have to go through the same protocol. Anyway, whether you've vaccinated or not, you still have to take the test, you still have to clear if you if you catch COVID, you're going to COVID protocol. So if if he's still doing that and he's willing to play the finds and he's not coming to the game of COVID, Like, I don't understand the whole big thing, But for me, it's like it goes along with everything else in a capitalist society that we will sit and say, this is being

forced on some folks. But these people, long as they got the money, they can pay their way out of whatever is being forced on the rest of society. I was watching, um, you know, I watched several shows. Uh, Sandford and Sons one of my big shows. I watched

it all the time, love it. UM. I also watched The Golden Girls, UM, and I watched Andy Griffith Show and a few a few others Good Times and the jeffer and was it was it the Jeffersons because there was the Jefferson's cartoon, and then the Jeffersons the show, right, I don't know what I'm talking about. On man, we're moving on us. Okay, the jet But there was the Jeffersons. It was the Jetsons. So the Jeffersons. No, so I watched I watched those shows. But I watched the and

the Griffith Show. It's one of my favorites. And in the show, Barney gave um uh not opious. It's it's one of the guys. I can't remember his name, but he works in the car. He's he's fixes the car anyway, gave him a ticket for um making a U turn in illegal you turn. So he gave him a ticket and it was a whole thing, and Barney said, I'll give it to my child and give it to my mother. You know Barney, He's like anybody could get it. So they said okay, and he Barney goes on about his business.

So one day Barney's pulling out of the station and he makes an illegal you turn, and the whole town runs up to Barney, led by this guy saying, citizens arrest, citizens arrest, citizens arrest. You gotta right yourself and ticket you gotta you gotta pay because you were not going to an emergency and you made an illegal U turn and you the rules don't change for you. So while these shows were funny, but it does represent a particular point because of course Barney quit his job. He sat

in the cell, locked himself in the jail. You know, he was super super dramatic, right, But it did make the point and Andy told him. You told folks that this was the rule. So how do the rules all of a sudden change when it comes to you. Of course it changes because Kyrie is helping them win games. So now all of a sudden, But I think, I think, I think it's it's a plethora of things, right, it's

it's Kyrie is helping to win games. As we move along in our knowledge of what COVID is and the possibility of eliminating it, how it spreads people who actually still have the vaccine getting it or and and realizing that it's still the same protocol. So when you start realizing, and that's why Kyrie came back. Because now if you're looking at the NBA, you have a bunch of people who have ten day contracts because everybody's on the COVID protocol. This person got COVID, so he got to sit out.

So now they don't even have players, So everybody's still dealing with the same thing. It's not like you're eliminating anything. So when they when they realize it as well, whether you're vaccinated or not, if you don't have COVID and you test it, you know what it is going to be the difference between the people who do have who do have a vaccine or not, because they're still coming up with the you know, with COVID and they still

got to go through the same protocol. So when you really think about it, doesn't really make sense that you're stopping from playing, especially if he's still going through the same protocol. He's still taking the test, he's going through all the things. If he doesn't have it, he's already had it. He went through the COVID protocol came back. I think the biggest point that you made um on this is that the NBA does not have an an

official vaccination policy. So so regardless of whether you agree or not, because you're gonna have some people say well, unvaccinated, that people create mutations, this, and that you're gonna have all of these different discussions and arguments, but the bottom line is there is no official mandate that the NBA has.

A lot of it has to do with the fact that you have states with governors and probably owners who are not vaccinated themselves, and and even if they are, they don't believe in it, they are blocking vaccinations or whatever. So it's very political. And at the end of the day, the NBA wants to make money and they want to win. People want to win games. So that's it. That's what it comes down to. And you know, just like Barney, the rules got to be the rules, right, So but

that's what I'm saying. The rules have to be the rules. If there is no vaccination policy, then you can't go say this. One man has to be forced to do it. And if he doesn't, and if you do force him to do it, he has the right to say I'm

walking away, right, So there's that. So look, I'm just gonna go real quick through this particular point because i know what we're talking about, and we've been preparing all weekend, um, you know, for this discussion today with these great these incredible incredible men leaders um and just you know, thought

leaders and everything just incredible men. And so you know, as we're preparing and thinking through what we will talk about, I happen to be in a conversation, you know, Sundays and then at my mom and dad's house, my family members, a few of them come and uncle on my brother UM every Sunday, and so we're sitting just talking and talking about life and you know, different things, and casually my brother says, yeah, I did UM five years, sixty months,

he says, in solitary confinement. And I'm like, what, Like, first of all, I did my brother's bid. He'll tell you I did all his bids since I think you know, I don't remember when it first started, but even at five and six years old, I knew he was going to call on the phone. So I was because you know, the phone was busy, there was no core waiting, right, So I was the one like, hey, six o'clock, six o'clock, you know, Derek. So that's doing a bid with somebody

when you concerned about when they call. I was concerned about his box being. By the time I got to ten and twelve, I was going in the grocery store with my parents, like he needs these little shrimps. He needs this can of this in the tuna and whatever whatever it was. I have been involved in every part. But then I became a teenager and I started hanging in the street. So I must have missed five years of when he was in solitary confinement. I can't believe

that happened to him. And my thought of the day today because there I see things about my brother. While he's wonderful, he's calmed down, he's getting to be an old man now. But I see things about him that and not and I don't mean it, you know, because he's younger than some of these young cats physically and all of that. But he's getting to be an old man now, which is a is a good thing, right.

I wonder what kind of world we would be in if there was mental health support, like mandatory therapy for people who are coming out of prison, especially if they were in solitary confinement, just the same way that it should be for our veterans and others who gone through traumatic experiences. If we want to live in a world where people um do, whether recidivism rate is reduced, right, what if everybody had to go to ment get mental health support? What if we lived like if America was that,

how much better would our world be? It would be way better. Man, A lot of us are dealing with, especially coming from prison. When you talk about that, being incarcerated and being in solitary confinement is one of the worst. It's it's complete detachment, right. It desensitizes you to so many things. It makes you crave seclusion. It makes you not want to you know, have um trust issues, It

makes you have interaction issues. It makes you calculate. It makes you really sit and think about things and calculate them in a manner that the average person don't. So when I sit here and think about what you're saying about, because you don't ship Derek being it, and I could look at Derek and I could tell that because I understand he's a good dude, you know, and he's vibrating all these things. But you could see how it affected him. You know, you can really see how it affected him.

And I tell people all the time, you've done more than sixty days inside tory confinement. There is a level of trauma and mental health that you're dealing with that you don't even realize because you start to normalize things they're not even normal anymore, you know, so we definitely need mental health. I think that should be a requirement. I think, I think because we we don't even like I find myself talking to certain people and it becomes therapeutic.

It's only two or three people that I could talk to that I feel identify what it is that I've been through. I've been through similar things. And I call these two or three people and and I and every time we talked, I find out something more about myself, you know what I'm saying just listening to them, and I'm giving me their perspective, even if we don't agree, and we debating back and forth, but it's always therapeutic for me. It's always like wow, And I find therapeutic

just my own solitude. And I think, I don't know if that's normal, right. I'm most creative when I'm by myself. I'm most creative when I'm just walking alone. I find myself in a different space, like I create that, you know, and I don't. And sometimes I don't know if it's

good or bad. You know, it's challenging when you have a family and there and and everybody wants engagement or you're a part of a project, and people want you to be engaged, but I even I have to get by myself in order to hear and to and to be in tune with my leadership. Um, and you know, to read and stay focused. And so I don't know if it's a bad thing, but I do know that there's some just some some fundamental issues about this country that really need to be shifted in order for us

to be a healthy society. All year we are really working to bring in more black male owned businesses. We need to hear from black men who have products, services, and um, you know, particularly um black men, but everybody anybody, but we're looking specifically for black men. And so if you have a business, a real business, we tell you all the time's got to have like a tax idea bank account, real business, please hit us up in the d M s at Street Politicians Pod at Street Politicians

Pod and our team they're in there. They're looking for the dopest businesses out there, and we want to be able to elevate your platform and to to really bring some awareness to your products and services. So, as usual, you know, on Street Politicians we have a lot of friends. We usually bring our friends to the table and back. These three brothers are brothers that I consider friends who are very UM, inspirational, motivational, from different walks of life

and um they've inspired me in different ways. First, I would like to introduce my brother, Shakas and Gore, a writer, entrepreneur, speaker, inspiring speaker, leading voice in criminal justice reform, and president of Shakas and Incorporated. Shaka Um was locked up for a homicide ended up doing nineteen years in prison. He was released in two thousand and ten after spending seven years of his prison sent inside of solitary confinement. He wrote a memoir which is a dope memoire. He's recipient

of numerous awards. I can't even name all awards he got. We'll be sitting here doing the whole episode on that. But UM, welcome Shakas and Gore to the to the panel today. What's going on? Shaka Um, blessed man. Thank you all so much for having me. It's good to see all faces. I know it's been a while since we all been in person, and UH just inspired to be here and honored to be here, So thank you all for having definitely man, thanks for being here. UM. Next,

We have another one, a brother that I respect. You know, he's the different. He took a different route. He grew up where I'm from, my hometown, the Bronx. He's attorney Royce Russell Um. He went to Hopstra University where he got his lawyer degree, became a criminal defense and civil rights lawyer in New York City. He's my lawyer. You know what I'm saying. He calls, he does, He's got us out of a lot of stuff and got us

into some more stuff. You know what I'm saying. He specialized in criminal defense, false arrest, police brutality, civil rights violations, immigration, contract employment, all types of things. He's he's one of the dopest lawyers that I know. He also now has a book called um Cardiac book is called Cardiac Arrest. It's a tactical guy on how to handle unlawful police stops. So welcome my brother and friend, Royce Russell to the table.

Attorney Royce Russell, how you doing, king? Alright? Alright? As Shoka said, I'm always I'm very happy to see her face with the voice. You know, I always hear the voice because we're communicating all the time. But it's nice to see the face. And you know, I just try to do the right thing by right people when you're out here in the streets. So thank you. Well. I appreciate that man, because think you said Shocker's book what you said? He has a memoir, but it's actually called

Righting My Wrongs. Right in My Wrongs, Life, Death and Redemption in the American Prison. It was released in two thousand sixteen and it was a New York Times bestseller. I mean, I told you we'll be sitting here talking about all the stuff that Sho got forever. I could do a lot of stuff. Man Like listen, Shaka always calls me with a new idea, got movies plays like Shakers. He's definitely he's what He's what you should think about when you when you talk about, you know, rehabilitation and

redemption and coming home from prison. He's a mottel for what does should look like, you know, when you come home and you evolved to the next level. And this brother is also one of those brothers. This is Mr Kevin Child's, CEO, co founder of Don Deva magazine. Kevin Child's is a previous street pharmacist, turn business person and creator. He is most popular for running a medication racket in

the rows of Harlem during the nineteen eighties. He was charged with tax evasion, Opio's trafficking, racketeering, racketeering following the supplication bargain. He also served ten years in government prison. He opened apparel and boutiques using proceeds from the narcotic transactions boss Sneakers and Bossing Porium with two of his investments in the nineteen eighties. Child He's also found it

Big Big Boss Records, his own record label. Um He's done so much and now he is the writer of a book called The Crack Error, The Rise, Fall in the Redemption of Kevin Child's. Welcome Kevin Childs to the show today. What's going on? Kevin hey man, Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I'm just on a to be a part of the panel. I appreciate the invite, Yes, man, right, Black men write books. You know when we thought about this show, well, I was just thinking about, you know,

how different ways that we've evolved. You know, being formally incarcerated after spending seven years in prison. You know, we get such a bad rap, you know about coming home and or being in prisoned. People don't believe that you can evolve from that. They have this stigma that you're criminal and it's just crime, you know. And what I realized, like I told people all the time, when you're a drug dealer, you just sell drugs. When you're a hustler, you can sell anything, you know, and a lot of

us were, but naturally hustlers. When we went to jail, we just had the wrong product that we were selling, you know. So when I when I see brothers like Kevin Childs, and I see brothers like Shockers and Goal and just the brilliant minds that they are. Like when you sit and talk to these brothers, they're brilliant, literally brilliant, you know, and they don't and a lot of people don't understand the level of brilliance that they've have and

just seeing the evolution. So I want to utilize my platform to be able to elevate these brothers and then also bring someone like Royce Russell in the conversation who came from the same beginnings that we come from the same areas, but he utilized his mentality to do a different He took a different route, you know. But it's when you I'm telling you. These brothers are all similar.

I speak to them and have conversations, and they all have the similar mindframe and they're all about the same thing. So I just wanted to talk about their books, talk about their evolution, talk about their processes, you know, and just give them some praise, man, and utilize our platform. Now all about the praise for black men. So let's jump right into it. So why don't we talk about the books? UM? You know what what encouraged you Shotgun,

Kevin Um and Royce to write your books? Um? You know the first of all the titles of each book are It's very powerful, um. And so maybe we should start their you know what encouraged you to to um to to write a book and then title it what you did? So let's start with Shaka, thank you so much and so good to seat to make. Uh. So, my first book, which is my first main stream release, not the first book that I wrote. UM. Writing My

Wrongs was inspired by a couple of things. One, I was really fortunate when I was in prison and have incredible mentors who guided me the books. And I used to tell this story that the most important book I read was Malcolm X's autobiography, and I realized that wasn't true. The most important book I read was Donald Gorn's Dope Pin because he was writing about the inner city and writing about the reality that I had actually came from. And that book led me to read Malcolm X's autobiography.

So I have a deep passionate love for writers in general. You know, the legacy of brilliant writers, the James Baldwin's and Alex Hadez of the world and Manya Angelo, who you know is the Queen's you know to me when it comes to a personal narrative of So that energy of writing as a way of healing was something that was deeply embedded. And then it was a Kanye song.

I was listening to this verse when he was like, it's funny how these songs helped me write my wrongs and some iteration of that, and I was like, man, it's a brilliant title for a book, because I started off journaling first before I even wrote a book, because I had to heal from the traumatic experience of being

incarcerated at a young age. You know, the traumatic experience of actually taking someone's life, something that we don't talk about, you know, we often talk about the trauma of being, you know, the victim of gun violence, but we don't talk about the long enduring trauma when you take somebody's life and how that continues to stay and endure no matter what. You know, if I robbed somebody, I could get him back what I took, but you can never you know, restore life in that way. And so, you know,

I thought it was really important to share that. And you know, as you may know, I have a new book coming out, let Us to the Sons of Society. Uh, And that title came from being inspired by the letters my dad wrote me while I was in prison. Um, we wrote, you know for nineteen years. We often don't hear the story of black fathers or fathers in general, who stand by the children's side through adversity. And my dad,

you know, wrote me for nineteen years. We exchanged letters, we argued, we debated, we joked, UM, and I wanted to you know, really memorialize the world that we live in for my two sons, one who's thirty years old and one who's ten years old. M So, what was so, I know, you have a new book that you're you're releasing. Yeah, you just said, it's a new book. What is it called again? Call Letters to the Sons of Society? The Honesty, Freedom and Love. So where are you? So you're in

the writing process now or you finished? Now it's done? It actually comes out Tuesday. How many how many books you would you say that you've written that you haven't released? So originally I started off self publishing our self publish for then went to mainstream publishing. But I got a total of about eight catalogs. My goal is to d ten um and I'll be re releasing some of my earlier work at a future dates. That's dope. So, Kevin Kevi, what what was your inspiration behind your book? The title?

You know, just give us a little peep into your brain about what you're thinking about. Um, well, let me back up a little bit. You know, Uh, Don Diva I created when I was incos redd and the reason for me doing that was that I realized that how our communities weren't aware of certain information that you know, that caused me to make some bad decisions in my life. So the creation of that started while I was incose reading.

So for almost twenty years now, we've been publishing Don Diva and Our motto was like, you know, we are educated and entertained, you know, and it encompasses away creatively that we provide information that wouldn't ordinarily be read readily available, you know, some of the pitfalls that happened our communities, from everything from uh, repairing your credit to some of the laws that we often find about we found out

about after we inconcerated, you know. Having said that fast forward, UH, to be quite honest with you, you you had a lot to doo with me write in this book to be honest with you, like so, um, that's the situation that you're quite away when you went up to ninety seven, which caused me that they have to go up there to to to expound on what you what you have been talking about. Um. I realized after that interview that it seemed like people was interested in and what I

had to say and me more personally. So I think probably days after that, I was encouraged to start writing. So from the time that I was up there, which was like in twenty sixteen, I think maybe the next two years I spent um, you know, just writing more specifically about the time period and myself. UM. But that derived from my invitation to come up to High ninety seven after you had came, can tell us the story,

like we all want to know it happened. Well, so basically what he's talking about and I and I never knew this, you know what I'm saying, so that I'm honored to even be able to inspire something like that. Um, when I did my freestyle on High ninety seven, I talked about a lot of the intricates of the streets and I'm talking about the freestyle that everybody the whole world was and just broke down certain principles, you know, about snitching and certain people that were glorified in the culture.

And um, Kevi being from that era and that culture was one of the people that that when I talked about certain situations that happened, flex has said something about it. And then UM, it went into what we need to get Kevin Child's up here so he can have and listen to what he talks about. So Kevin somebody that's been respected in the streets and just in the culture

in general, you know. And um, we set up the interview to where he went up to High ninety seven and he asked him about principle in the streets and what makes this snitching? And what are these certain rules and codes? And he just broke it down so eloquently, you know, a way that even I couldn't do it, because he just has a different understanding the way that he he just you just hear him speak and where he put like a street farmer says, most people don't

say street farm us. But this is just how keV you know, he presents things. So when he went up there, he broke it down. And UM, I guess, like he said, just having that conversation and seeing how people were interested and just understanding how he thought and how he perceived things, and he just put it into books. So that Wow, that's amazing. I'm honored to have had anything to do with that. Man. I appreciate that. Well. I'm happy that it occurred that way, because I would have never did it.

Like I said, we have been publishing this magazine for over twenty years and and we have been um interview on certain individuals that you know, I felt that the community have found very interesting to help to deliver our message. And at no point in time that I ever put much of the emphasis on myself for the most part, So like I said, coming coming from that interview and seeing how well it was received and they're going viral.

I was encouraged thereafter, like with Kevi, you you probably need to do something like that, and I put pen to paper and that's really how that came about. Wow. Wow, that's very very encouraging to hear that story and how everything connected, you know, And it's crazy that that your freestyle was in two thousand and sixteen. That's been it seems time just flying by. But that's a whole different day, a whole different conversation about the universe. So Royce, tell

us about your book. I mean, I know a lot about about cardiac the rest, and just so happy you took the time to sit down and really in your own way, right the letters to our sons, right, So talk about your experience with writing the book. But one of the things that you guys mentioned earlier, the song my song, you're talking about, you know, being a hustler and being an entrepreneur. I think all those things is

something that we have in common, but also the cultural tie. Right, you could be an entrepreneur have no cultural tie, and although you might be financially successful, you really meaningless in your soul. So when I looked at cardiac arrest, I did look at one, the cultural tie between me and the community. And number two, you know, as a business person, what does my community need is the void? Right? What

do we need to learn? Right? And so in doing that, I'm saying, but we're marching, We're talking what is going to be the long lasting document or documents that folks can have over a period of time to read, to, to go to. We had the Green Book, we have the Bible. We have a bunch of books out there

and guides out there to help us through life. So looking at it from a cultural and the academic and and an awareness perspective, when you know you have larrrangitis, Tamika has laryerrangized, and you're not out there in the in the forefront speaking where we're getting the information from? Right when you're time is divided and you're doing other things. Where are we getting this information from? How could we make this information with us? Take take up with us

all day every day. And that's how I came to cardiac arrest. I mean you mentioned the title. The title is is really just an example of our life as people of brown and black color skin out here in America, when police stop you, whether you're driving or whether you're walking, you do have the same symptoms that you have. And when you think you're having a heart attack, your hands get sweaty, your blood your your your blood pressure goes up.

You know, you start thinking about, well, at least for me, what I did in the past, what my future is gonna look like, what's going on with the present. So it is, if not a death experience, it's definitely a near death experience, right, and your heart stopped. And so that's where I got cardiac from. The arrest came from, because really, is the situation resolved where you're not arrested,

Something's gonna happen. The cuffs are coming somewhere. And we can define what arrest means, whether that means process down at the precinct, or whether that means standing in handcuffs in front of your car or in front of your loved ones on the street or on the alley. It still is what it is. So how do we perpetuate that?

You know? And so I went and wrote the book based upon my experiences growing up in the Bronx, growing up in an area that is not serviced growing up in the in the projects, as they say, and kind of extrapolate on that and my experience as being in a civil rights attorney. We translate that book into Spanish, and now we have a workbook where brothers and sisters can sit down and they can look at questions, look at answers, multiple choice A, B and C. Pick an answer.

We can have a discussion why the answer is right or wrong? Or are there two answers that are the same. You just happen to pick one and I just happen to pick another. And then have a process where they can do critical thinking. They can write down their thoughts of what they see, how they vision their community, how can they become a leader, you know, using analytical skills, you know, understanding how the constitution works with you actually

being arrested. So although we're having changed for those here who may or may not know in New York City, from an educational standpoint, we see how far, we will see how far change comes, because this should be part of our education system, because it combines the reality of what's happening to most people that didn't live in America, and it gives you an education of civics and critical thinking. So that's how I got to where I am. That's dope.

And when I'm listening to you, it correlates and connects to what was saying. What he was doing with Dan Dieva, like giving knowledge about laws, insist things in the system that he didn't he wasn't privy to until he actually went to prison. So he utilized the magazine to give information and entertained at the same time. And just you're doing the same thing, utilize in this book to you know, inform people about how the system works and certain things

to do with the system. So I told you that you have so much connection and have so many similarities. That's dope. But um Shoka and keV and and the titles of your books, there's the word redemption, you know, and I just want to know y'all expand what does redemption look like to you? How do you feel like you redeemed? You are redeemed, or do you feel like

it's gonna take loan You're never gonna be redeemed. And if if you do feel like you're not redeemed, that you can be redeemed, what what will it look like? What would you have to do to be redeemed. I'm gonna start Kevin, you wanna go, um feel free? Yeah, you know, I think my redemption took place far before I got out of prison, because it really had to come from within my community, and they had to come

from our people. I never thought that the system itself would give me a second chance, and even at this point in my career. Uh, there's tons of obstacles that stand in a way of just living a normal life, right. Um. And that's kind of part for the course when you think about being black in America. But just for an example, you know, people don't know that if you have a felony, it's hard to get life insurance, it's hard to get home insurance. Uh. It as a homeowner and as someone

who wants to ensure that I protect my my son. Uh, you know, and even in my demise, those things are are obstacles there, you know, things that we have to navigate. So I never have thought that the system itself will be open to allowing us to to, you know, redeem ourselves. But for me, it was really about community. And a lot of my work started while I was in prison.

You know, Um, I had you know, these older brothers who challenged me, you know, and they challenged me to grow when I was the hothead on the yard and eventually became like one of the main shot callers on the yard, and I was operating out of those broken motions of anger and violence and getting them more troubles while I ended up, you know, serving seven years of salitary confinement. But those brothers always saw something redeemable in it, and they poured into me, and they fared me books

and they challenged my ideas. You know, I tell people, I used to go to the to the librarian, um, you know, every week, and I would battle with these older brothers. You know, we would have these intense debates around books that they had selected, in books that I had selected, and because I read relatively fast, they would often think that I didn't read the books, and so they would grill me, like, yo, okay, what was Malcolm talking about on this phase? What did Marcus Garvey mean

about that? You know what I'm saying. And then they were swinging to philosophy. You know what is Tyler, you know Zoo talking about over here? And so that just sharpened me. But it also grew me. And even though I was rebellious. You know, I caught thirty six misconducts when I was in prison. Um when I needed that wisdom, when I was ready to transform my life, all of that they had poured into me came rushing back to me. And so that's where redemption started. I was an organizer

in prison. I actually talked about it, uh in my new book and one of the chapters about resistance, and I remember us organizing three hundred men on the yard because we was tat of these two officers who was just running rough shot over people. And I was smart enough to know that if we just vitally attacked them,

we're definitely getting shot down. So what I did is I figured out a way to bend the rules and basically organized in groups of six and we all did exercise, but they were all different exercises, but we all did one cadence and that wasn't technically illegal, but the voice of three hundred men speaking in cadence at one time in the prison yard completely shook the prison up, and they knew that they had to dress that. So, to me,

redemption started well before I walked out of prison. You know, I started writing before I walked out of prison, and then I came home as a servant in my community, in which I still serve our mentor all across the country. Um. You know, I've helped build organized as I'm a supporter and a resource for many organizations. And so to me, it's really just about what my people think, you know what I'm saying, Uh, Because the system, you know, they don't really care, you know, to the degree in which

you know we would identify as redemptive. Well, keV, So what does redemption look like to you? Um? For me, redemption is as as a personal perspective. For me, I don't ever think that, um, I was a bad person. You know, I feel as though I made certain choices that egregiously affected people in my community. But for me, I've always considered myself to be a decent person, and I think they had a lot to do with how my outcome because I've always treated people more than fair.

You know. Um, what when I started thinking about it in the term more specific redemption, you know, it was, like I said, it was a personal It was a personal endeavor for me and my family. You know, I wanted my family to forgive me from not for for for my absence in their lives and not being able to raise my kids for a certain amount of time. You know, I sat with that for a long time in prison, because my intention was always to take care

of my family. Then the exact opposite end up ultimately happened when I wasn't there to protect them or to take care of them, you know. So I wanted first and foremost my family to forgive me, you know, because my my decisions and choice caused me not to be there to be a father to my children and to raise them and to provide the things that I always wanted to have. I always wanted them to have a better life than I had. I knew some of the choices that I made and life was just due to

circumstances and my reality of what they was. And it was all with good intentions, you know. Um, So I was on a personal crusade to do that. So from the day that I walked out of prison, there's no way to make it for time, but I spent every moment trying to get my life back together, and and and and and provide the right example for my my

sons and of course my daughter. So I spent every moment just trying to do the right thing, and you know, and and actually begged them for forgiveness ultimately, you know, because like stated just presently, redemption has has a different look for certain people, like society may never may never

consider me redeemable. You know. Um, I made a way when I came home to to move my family to the fluent neighborhood, to create the opportunity for my kids to go to the fluent schools to get a better education. You know. Um, these opportunities wasn't provided to me for society because I don't think society will ever forgive me or give me the opportunity that I feel I deserve. So I had to sort of take what I wanted.

But more importantly, like I said, I think my celsade was to get my family to understand that the choices that I made wasn't because I didn't want to be absent in the household. And children, especially young and presentable children, they don't sort of understand it. All they understand is that you're you wasn't present, You wasn't there, you know.

So I think I spent every week and moment trying to get uh to be forgiven by my media family and my children more specifically, you know, and ultimately, UM, I think I think it's showing up that way, you know, so resumption that's sort of like what it means to me, you know, primarily more focused. It's so interesting that in both um stories, in both statements, you hold both of you hold redemption so close to the heart because there are so many people who live every day for the world.

They live for society, live for what the people gonna say, what they the days, and we talk all the time about who is they, UM, and to hear you make it really personal that redemption is about the people around you, your own community, you know, those folks who have poured so much into you and your development, and then for there to be something that happens that harms those individuals that you see redemption as working on that first UM. And I think that's something that so many of our

young men can learn from. And in fact, my son is twenty two, UM, and I often have conversations with him, looking Royce is his lawyer to let's we won't get into why Royce is his lawyer, but he is definitely also my son's you know, protector in terms of trying to keep his mind straight, Um, And there's been so many times that I have told him about carrying our

last name as a family. You know that the way in which he operates in the world, that when he shows up, people need to know that a Mallory child. Although he shares his father's last name, which is Ryan's, but nonetheless people know that he's my child, and he is the grandson of Stanley and von Still, who are stellar leaders in the community, and that rather than trying to please the world, you have to first work on securing and and helping to Um. You know, really put

respect on the name that you come from. So I think for us, Um, that's a message that young black men have to hear constantly from us so that they focus more on the inner rather than Instagram and what the world is telling them. It's definitely true, man Um. Just listening to all of you and the perspectives that you have is just enlightening. I just want to know, Um Shoka. You know, I know that you do a lot of work and we do similar work with mentoring.

How how do you approach because a lot of people approach mentoring different. When you have conversations with young men that probably are in similar situations or similar mind states that you had when you were young, and you see them going down this path, Like, what's the mind state that you approach them? How do you deal with that? Because we talked as we're talking about to make a soun like we need a little strategy to try to just like, what what is your strategy? Yeah, you know,

I think I approach everything from trauma informed care. You know, I was an honor roll scholarship student with all the potential in the world and a series of traumatic events after in my life being abused in the household to being shot at a young age. And so when I'm working with young people, for one, I learned to listen more than I talk. I think our instinct is to try to correct and try to I and I've just started to listen because typically when you listen, you can

start to unravel the mystery behind young people, right. Uh. And then it's also detached ego. I don't have my ego attached to any outcomes. At the end of the day, I had to serve a sentence, and so I'm very cleativeve you if a young person is intent on making poor decisions, like you can't attach your ego to that,

otherwise you'll drive yourself crazy. And so it's ego list mentoring, it's intentional listening, but it's really through the lens of trauma informed care, really understanding what has happened to our children, what they've been exposed to, where there are points of pain are at uh, you know, especially with family. You know, I I'm parenting you know, my ten year old um, his mom and I haven't been together for seven years.

So I understanding that that was a fracture early on that I had to be intentional about how do I co parent in a way that's healing, healthy, and that's rooted in the love for him, and thinking about the young men that I mentored, a young women. I mentored a lot of young ladies as well. It's understanding what is what is that trauma story, what is that origin story? Uh,

and what is their aspirational story? And so a lot of times just listening and really hearing where they're coming from, but also being willing to be vulnerable and be honest and to not glorify past decisions. Like you know, I was convicted of second to degree murder when I was nineteen years old, and you know, I understand the culture, you know, the the whole. You know, how we celebrate the psychotic behaviors that exists in our community, you know

what I'm saying, and how we elevate that right. Um, you know, I was put on a pedestal in the hood as as a as a shooter. Um. And so for me really getting them to understand, there was the prison sentence, but then there's the reality of you know, this is something I live with every day. You know

what I'm saying. My brother was murdered last summer, and I couldn't properly agree because I'm know I made a family feel the way that that that our family was feeling, and so trying to unravel you know, that reality for them in a way that's honest, that's transparent, is not about glorifying, you know, like, yes, I got shot. In the story, we hear what'sbody get shot? It's like, oh, you know I did this and I had to get back.

What we don't here is that when I was sitting in the hospital bed that I was afraid because I was really a kid. You know, seventeen years old, you're a kid. But when the stories are retold, oftentimes they're glorified as if we are void of emotions, as if we're a void of fear, or as if we don't experience sadness. And so that listening you started to tune in and then language is so important. Um. You know, when I talked to the young brothers, I intentionally call

them brothers. I don't call them you know what up my little nigga because that that that word as much as we used in our culture, and it's not to be you know, it is what it is, but it

also creates uh a barrier between emotional honesty. And I think when when I when I've talked to these young brothers, they can't wait to be hugged by a man, like a man that stands in the authenticity of his manhood with love and an emotional growth and maturity like these younger brothers crave that and they're afraid to seek it out. So we have to be seeking out how to give

it to him. But we have to listen. First. Let me ask you, Royce, just thinking of you know me saying that you have worked with Tarke and I have called you many times late night, like can you talk to him? You know, can you help to translate things that I have not been able to articulate well, um, and you know, and also just to help him see what the end result of, you know, not not coming home on time. Nobody knows where you are these types

of things like what can happen. I'm assuming that you have so many clients that you are, you know, that you're defending and working with professionally, that you take you have to stop and take time to also mentor and try to work them through some of them the mental and emotional challenges that they're facing. So tell us what that looks like for you and your work and how exhausting is it as a black man. Do you feel like it's your responsibility to do that with the young

with you know, people that you are working with your clients? Well, first of all, you do a great job with giving your son advice. It's just that where he's hearing it from, right, It's not the advice in and of itself that is not good advice. It's who I'm hearing it from and whether or not I want to give credence to that because I'm a male and she's a female. Despite what you do in the world, right, and then it takes

a little bit of yeah, I heard that before. I remember when my mom said that, you mean like this has been going on for generations. Yeah, this has been going on for generations, and this is how you're going to have to deal with it. And I think once those who are younger see someone that is older saying yeah, I had that experience and this is how I went

through that experience, then it shows a different light. But I can never be as eloquent to reflect what Shaka just said in reference to how you go about being this mentor, because what you're speaking to is as an attorney, that's exactly what I am. Because most of the people that I represent young, old, in between people of color, I'm probably maybe the first or second time they've had

an attorney as an African American. They've had leaguay, they've had neighborhood defenders, they had the attorney at their family thought was gonna do the right thing, and usually that's not a person of color. So then here I come walking through the door right intentionally, unintentionally referral you name it, and now they're seeing, maybe for the first time, someone of color that is talking about the things that they did.

Then you add on top of that once I get to let them know me, because that's what comes first, right, They're not gonna, you know, tear down their guard. That that the defenses there has always been there. You gotta be there every day, twenty four hours, seven days a week. It's gonna be there when I get finished talking to them they go upstairs. It is then when they come down and the elevator to have their legal consultation, it's gonna be there. So somebody has a chair down the wall,

and so as we have in the conversation. Then they realized, oh, you grew up in the bronx, but they realized he was shot at or you did go to press school. Oh, but you're all sat together, all of the five blacks that you had in your class out of thirty five or sixty white you're sat together. You're eight lunths together.

It's a different type of incarceration, but all the attributes that look quite similar, the congregation, the isolation, the and at the age fourteen, when you don't really understand racism and you really understand classism and how that works together, and somebody comes with you and say the wrong thing, and next thing you know they're on the floor and they're almost dead because they hit their head on the

marble table because you did something. And the isolation that comes after that when you start to relay those stories and you start to talk about people that they may have heard of, that you hung out with or that you were in in the presence of but just for whatever reason you left a little bit earlier, right, you know, those things start to resonate. So what I do in my practice and what I do every day, whether it's mentoring or whether it's advising, is that we're gonna walk

to walk together. That's just what we gotta do. We're gonna walk to walk together. And I'm gonna call you on things that it just flat out what are you talking about? Like what are you saying? Like what what are you really saying? This is what you're saying, because

now that's not what's really right. And then there's gonna be some things, and it's gonna be a lot of things that as we talk about trauma, like I never really saw it that way because I don't see myself being traumatized, right, but I us right to a certain degree, and I don't blame anybody for it. You got seven people in a three bedroom apartment, one bathroom, and when you can study is in the bathroom. You can't study anywhere else. TVs Two loud music too on, you can't stay.

You would confine in that bathroom. That's probably five five five. And if someone goes to the bathroom and does something, you can't go back into the bathroom and study. You're sitting on the edge of a tub, reading on a hamper.

It sounds pretty isolation to me. It sounds like you isolated to me, different once again, never the same, but kind of the the but and then and then, and then you're sitting inside of an apartment that is located inside of a housing projects where everything is going on, and there's trauma that exists just from being in proximity to our communities, and you know what's had no matter what you're doing. I was a kid who grew up

in a household that was very different from my neighbors. Right, we didn't have um, it wasn't well, you know, and and that's relative. I was gonna say, we didn't have drug addicts like in in our home, like my parents weren't drug addicts. But the truth is Uncle Jimmy, who came every Sunday, was a crack addict and they had aids. He had to sit in one space in the house where he was he had He was also homeless. He was bleeding my mother, you know, but she was still

gonna let him in. So he was being taken care of. My brother was in and out of the system. Shot this one, This happened, that happened. He's in jail, back and forth. And while they were my parents, my father was a correction officer, my mother was working for taxi and limousine commissioned. They were good people. We were the best of the best in the building. But we still

lived in Manhattanville projects. So the trauma is still there. Yeah, yeah, and then so and so then when you leave that restroom, that bathroom, everybody is talking about how they want you to be a success, but nobody is giving you the

means to be successful. You're old in my way, like like wait, so you translate that to people that you come across, at least in my practice, right, and we you know, we kind of focus on the young folks, but really I'm talking to men at fifty six, thirty five, thirty four and and no matter what the decade is.

They're like, yeah, that happened, and and you know, sixty five and like you're still doing this at sixty five, And I'm amazed sometime at myself and shockuld probably can speak this and that stually be coming to speak to how I'm speaking to some people in some type of way that I know if they wanted to do something in a minute, it could be over, you know what I mean, Like like if they really wanted to do something, they really want to like you know what you're talking

to me some type of way. I know where your office is. This can be a situation. The reason why you can do that is because your authenticity, your sincerity, your culturalism. They even though they don't know what to call it, they see it as a mentorship, you know, even though they don't know what to say it, they see it as love, even though they don't know what to say. You you there people, and you never have

to worry about anybody following any appeal. You ain't got worried about the way said you sold me down the river. It's because of that relationship, you know. I was just sitting here just thinking about all the traumas that we deal with, right, and just listening to it and knowing a little bit of everybody's story here, you know, um, just thinking I was thinking about this. It's kind of

a deep question. And I don't know if you ever thought about it, but Shaka, have you ever liked, um the family members of the person whose life you've taken? Have you ever had any conversation with them, had some like express some level or sorry or or was that ever something that you wanted to do? Was it an opportunity did that ever happen some type of reconciliation. Yeah,

that's that's a great question, my son. I think it's you know, it really speaks to what I was talking about earlier, how you carry this for the rest of your life. So, about five or six years and my prison sentence, I got this letter from a woman am Nancy. And initially, I mean, you know, for those of us who being in prison, you know how pen pals randomly, right, is you know, your your mom's friend from the church,

or aunt's friend or neighbors. So I didn't know who this woman was, and I remember opening the letter and I started to read it, and what she said to me was I want to tell you a story about David, the man who's life irresponsible for taking. This is who he is as a father, This is who he is as a son, this is who he is as a friend.

And so she tells me this story. She raised him as his guy moother and I remember wanting to bawl that letter up, like I was so shaken, like I didn't even know what to do at the time, I was probably about twenty two or twenty three, but I kept reading that letter, and in that letter she said, you know, despite these things, I forgive you because that's what God would want me to do. And her and I started corresponding, and I remember she would ask me,

like what happened that night? And I would give her the very just practical things, you know, but she was like, what happened to you? Like what happened to you at nineteen years old? That made you take a man's life? I can tell from your letters that you're very intelligent, very insightful. And so we went on this journey where I was avoiding for a long time, even telling her all the elements of what happened was a drug transaction that went wrong that he shouldn't have been part of.

Somebody else brought them. So I avoided all that for for a while, and eventually we got to that truth. Fast forward, I get out of prison myself originally self published, but a lot of people don't know I originally self published Righting My Wrongs. I hustled that book out of the trunk two thousand thirteen. That book that I hustled out the Trump eventually reached Oprah wants to reach Oprah. I was able to, you know, problay that into a

mainstream deal. Right when I went mainstream, I go on the local news station just to you know, public the book, all the stuff we do. I get an email from the you know, the journalists and she said, David's wife reached out to you and she wants to connect. And so she sent her email and said, he's serious about his redemption, he will call me. I was in the middle of a program the rapper Big Sean. He's from Detroit and he does this mentoring program. I was a speaker.

I had to stop step out call David's white caller and we you know, this call and she was like, I'm so proud of the men you'd be bought into and you know, I've really been wanting to speak to you for a while. Now. What a lot of people don't understand is when you're incarcerated for an a sort of crime, you can't reach out to the family. You can't reach out to anybody that you victimize unless they

reach out to you first. And so I have been wanting to have that conversation with, you know, specifically his wife. And so we ended up having this conversation and we talked and you know, we explained some text um and then sadly and unfortunately, they decided to sue me once they saw all the Oprah thing right. And now, I

and I'll tell you this. You know, at the at the most human level, I understood their anger here and I understood their frustration, but I also understood that they were wrong and their efforts to extract money for me sharing my life story. Um. But because of the empathy and the understand I have for their family, I didn't show up with any anger, you know what I'm saying.

I showed up. I showed up with empathy and compassion, and all exchanges befin between our lawyers were compassionate and you know, empathetic, and so what I realized in that moment is that they were in the midst of a deep, deep hurt and deep sorrow um as many families are who has lost the loved one, and that pain manifested with outsiders telling them this is how they should get justice, even though I had already served my time and did all the things that I needed to do to to

to deal with the legal part. And so what I what I would say my son is that you know, these things that we find, these moments that we found ourselves in. You know, that was a thirty second decision that ended the life and it completely changed my life for the rest of my life. Uh. You know, my young son has had to deal with the fallout from you know, my experience. You know, going to school and you know a kid can say, hey, your dad's a murderer.

You know. Um, you know, there's a business, there's people I've dealt with, there were job opportunities, and so everything that I've been able to do, I had to kind of created very grassroots, very you know, guerrilla style, you know what I'm saying. Hustle, hustle until you break through, and once you break through, it's no going back, but it endures you know, and so for me, I think it's important, uh for us to atone when we can

and where we can. It may not always be directly to the people that you've hearned, but there's other people in proximity. Like I've worked with mothers and murdered children back when I was in Detroit, and I was able to sit as a proxy for, you know, the men who had killed these mothers kids, And I was able to sitting and allow these sisters to say, I don't like you, I hate you, I'm hurt by you, I'm devastated by you. And I was also able to apologize

on behalf of those men and facilitate healing. And like that's the work that is a lot of that's behind the scenes, but restore the practices are popping up all over and I think it's one of the lynch pins to actually hit in our community because as we know, violence is clickical. You kill my brother, I kill your brother, you know, and I just you know, spared the whole family. When my brother was murdered. I went home, you know, I'm I'm in a d I'm fishing in the street.

The brothers they loved me. My brother got killed the whole block was there, and they're like, we know where his mom at, we know where his brothers at. Right now, we're about to go around. And I was like, no, we're not. That's not what's happening here. You know what I'm saying, because sometimes some of us, sometimes we have to step up and say, you know what, it got to end here. You know, my family is hurting. You know, this is our baby brother. He wasn't in the streets,

he wasn't doing anything wrong. And all of us, most of my brothers, were all from the streets. So it's easy to justify that kind of reaction, but the responsible and healing thing to do is to disrupt that. Uh. And so we were. I was fortunate that you know, I'm I'm I'm the o G, I'm o G enough for them to actually listen. Um. But that's all. That's part of the restore the practices. What's your brother's name,

Sharad name Sharad Red. And I was fortunate before the book came the new book came out to be able to you know, dedicate this book to him and other young brothers and sisters and families who have lost the loved one and you know, it's uh, it's hard though, you know, because it's like it ain't even been a full year, you know, but you know, it's it's the nature of our community that we got to talk more about,

you know, this reckless gun violence. And you know, his circumstances was different, like I was in the streets, street stuff. You know, there there's you know, under standing in that world of these are the potential outcomes. Um, So when it happens differently, it hurts differently. But you know, I just look at these moments man as opportunities to further hill our community and really advise um. You know, young people were like how to think about these things differently?

That's right, So we got we gotta wrap this up. But I really want to ask Kevin question just based on this what you said, right and knowing some of the Kevin's story. keV. You know, I've read or I think I've seen an interview where you were talking about how your mother was killed and and I just just was listening to it and just just trying to process it. And I believe it was just based on someone trying to get do something to you or trying to extort

you as something or some get back. Did you when when that happened, did you blame yourself? Do you still blame yourself for the situation? How did you come to terms with that whole situation? Well, clarity, it actually didn't have anything to do with me. It was actually brought to my daughter step a very good friend of mine at the time his girlfriend who at the time was maybe eighteen years old, and she had got kidnapped. And it just so happens that the kidnapping happened in the Bronx,

probably minutes from where my mother lives. You know, my mother lived in the Forham Hill section uh University, you know, in that vicinity, And this happened like in a section like in like the Fordham Hill section of the Bronx, which this young lady was visiting a girlfriend of hers, and then when she left the apartment, they abducted her. And they had asked her for money, and me and her, me and her boyfriend, you know, we were like intertwined

and and and and and our illegal dealings. So um, I guess when they had when they had her, they had asked her to to take them to my house to get some money of some kind of way. My my name came up in a conversation. In any event, she brought them to my mother's house and they manipulated themselves to get into the apartment, maybe saying something that

happened with me. My mother knew who this young lady was, but she wasn't She wasn't, you know, directly associated with her, But she happened to know who this young lady was. So some kind of way they gained access to the apartment in search of money and drugs and those kind of things, which none of that was was there um. But to answer your question indirectly or directly, it still was because of the life choices that I had made.

Of course, you know, had I I chose that as a as an occupation, then it would never ended up my mother's daughter. So to answer your question frankly, you know, it's not a day that went by, and that's been over thirty years that that that I've been able to forgive myself. And that's one of the reasons why I go so hard for my family, you know, to to to to to make it make sense, because you know,

especially around holidays and and and certain things. Even with the the birth of my grandkids, and my grandfather now to know that she wasn't here to see that, you know what I mean. And I did all of these things for that reason. I mean, I actually got into the drug game because of the poverty that we was in, and I was trying to pick up some of the slack around the household, you know, to make to take the burden off of her and make the load a

lot lighter, you know. So ironically that's been in results. I felt like my efforts was in vain because that was really what motivated me in the first place. So, um, I feel responsible for you know what I'm saying. And that's not something you wake up and you can never shake, you know, you can you can never you can never rid yourself of that guilt. And I walk around with

it all the time, you know what I'm saying. But again, I'm to do so much to the right to offset what went to the left, you know, in every waking moment, trying to um, just you know, make it all makes sense when it's said and done, you know what I'm saying. Well, yeah, I feel that regular responsible for and it's not nothing I've ever been able to, like side step. What's the therapeutic process. First of all, thank you, thank you to

the three of you for being so vulnerable. UM. This is probably one of the most moving shows that we've done. The first one, UM, for me was watching the experience between my son and Hill Harper, where they both became teary eyed on the show talking about some of the same issues, the trauma that black men specifically faced. UM. And that show for me was probably the first, you know, the one that moved me the most, but this would certainly be the second. Just listening to you all talk

about your lives and talk about your story. My son's father was murdered. UM. Now it's been twenty years twenty years ago. He was shot twice and left in a ditch for two weeks before his body was discovered, completely decomposed obviously by the time he was found, UM, and you know, we were never able to give him a

proper burial. And I had for a long time believe that just because my son had me, you know, my mom, my dad, my sister and so many people are round, that he didn't have all of this trauma when he you know, I would think I was always thinking, well, you've been well taken care of you didn't want for anything. But it took my son and other men around me to say that that experience, even though he was only two, he's still dealing with the trauma of his father being

murdered and the way that he was murdered. And um, you know, I realized that black men have a real story. And so again, thank you so much for for telling it. And then and the last thing I think as we

close out is what is the therapeutic process? Because Kevin, I'm not sure whether you're in therapy, but I know that what you just said requires it, right, um Shaka, I think I'm pretty sure you have had some therapeutic experience, and even Royce, while you know, while yes, you are helping other people, but it there's definitely a need to work through what you see black men who look like you going through every day because sometimes I think there

can be a little bit of survivor's remorse for those of us who have made it. So to speak. Um, so, are you all, as anybody you know here, receiving therapy or is this something you're looking to do? Can we you know, whoever wants to take that question can just jump in. Well, I want to answer that. I'll answer that first. Um, I love therapists. I mean, like I can't even imagine life without it. And for a couple of reasons that you mentioned. One, I know I'm jaded,

Like like, I know I'm jaded. I was. I was fortunate enough to go to a prep school where you know, I'm less than one percent, didn't me. I knew why I was there. I was there to play basketball, didn't understand racism, didn't I understood classes because I was still

on food stamps and stuff. For that nature family was able to work through it, struggling with what you want me to be a success, but it shore don't seem like it, you know what I mean, and going to school and being stressed out with like don't worry about tuition, don't worry about this, your study. So and I love my family for that, I mean like that was nothing wrong with that. That was the situation we were in.

But who does that make you? Right? Who does that make you when you look in the mirror and you're like, yo, look, I can't count on nobody but me, and people are reaching out, but you're like, nah, I ain't gonna take that because I know it's gonna be disappointment at it. You don't know it's gonna be there. You don't see it as disappointment, but you're like, you know what, I'm

gonna do my own thing. I got it. It's something not right about that when you're only cheer leader is you, and you can't let anybody be a cheerleader for you, you know what I mean, You can't let any or your whole life you're looking for a partner to be a cheer leader for you or because people will you know, people may not see what you see. And so yeah, I got I gotta get on that phone called Dr Gray up. Let's have this conversation. It goes professional, it

goes personal, it goes perspective. Right, how much success is success? Can you like bow down? Now? You know? Is it the right thing to try to becoming? Just how limited is that? Is a lot of things that go on with carrying a torch of trying to make sure that culturally and legally we all right because it's not. Once again, it's not a lot of us doing it. You know, New York City is a big place, but you could

probably ten ten lawyers. You could probably think of that practice in this area, whether it's civil rights, a criminal defenses of color that give a damn anyone else. Yeah, I could identify what everything that Royce just said. Uh. And I'm very thankful for you being an attorney, my attorney who actually saved my life as a black attorney as well. His name is Mr Anthony Rico. Oh, yes, I love him, love him. It wasn't just an attorney. I learned a lot of life lessons with him, you know.

And I had a lot of Italian high profile lawyers, Jewish lawyers that came to me that um I thought aesthetically probably fit the bill better than he did. But it was something that he said when we spoke that I knew he was. It was relatable and I identified with him, you know. So, um and I chose him for a lawyer, and my life has ever been different because he shared some life lessons with me that to this day I lived by. So I identified relate to

everything that you're saying. And like you said, it's just not enough for you guys in this field, because it would change the lives of a lot of us. But to get back to the point of um therapy and and and and that, um My whole family looks towards me to make the right choices and decisions, you know, and to propel my family from poverty into the middle

class and toto ultimately um generational wealth. Like you know, and like I said, I've been on a mission since I've came home, and I single handedly have moved them and put them in a position that you know, I know that if I wasn't um doing what I was doing, I don't know what that would look like. Um So, with my accomplishments and my success as I think what soothes my soul and and and keeps me a little

bit at peace. But I'm sure that I could probably sit, you know, and unpack some of this trauma that that I've dealt with my whole life, because I know I'm very desensitized to a lot of things that I've just made comment like, you know, it's a commonality. I've just I've normalized it, you know, to get by, you know, because even when I wrote the book was very therapeutic.

You know, there's a lot of things that I reflected on and I was like, I don't even really believe that I endored that I went through that or I even was a part of that because it was such a heinous, vicious time, you know, So to even be president today I consider a blessing. You know. Um, seeing being a grandfather was nothing I have envisioned, you know, Um, coming back putting my daughter to college and seeing her graduate,

and then not having a child. You know, I didn't even think I would ever be even a part of their lives. I didn't think I was gonna live long enough to to see this day. But the fact that I have done, it's a testimony to to to me just enduring and getting by and then, like I said, I live in the memory of my mother. So everything I do is I'm doing, you know, for her more specifically, and I honestly think that she would be proud of me.

But the man that I turned into present day and all the things that I've done so Um, do I think I could use therapy. I think all black men could use some therapy. I think because coming from our environments, that's a fact. But I still feel blessed to be here. The thing, like I said, I'm honored to have been a part of this panel. That they's very insightful for me. You know, I'm glad that I was a part of it. Thank you for having Yeah, And I'll just ad I

don't know. We're wrapping up before you answer the question, and I know they're gonna kill me. The whole production team is looking at me like I'm crazy. But the the we talked about this earlier in the show. Um, my brother told me, uh this this past weekend that he did sixty months in solitary confinement. I don't know why I didn't know. I mean, I was I thought I did his bid with him, but clearly maybe as

I became a teenager, I missed some time. I had no idea that he sat in solitary confinement for five years, but he told me he grew up in solitary. And I'm just trying to I just want to know, Like when we talked about therapy, like, what has it been like for you to deal with, you know, returning to life after having sat in solitary? What would you say for seven years? Because my son always tells me after how many days something. I think after nineties to sixty days,

it changes you. It does something mentally to you. You know, yeah, more time than that, you know, it's it's it's one of the most horrendous things that we can do to another human being. And I think a lot of people experience just a minor glimpse of what that's like with

the pandemic um. You know, that feeling of being alone, that feeling of not knowing when things are going to change, the hardest thing for me about being a solitary it's my senses was and definite, which means it's not like, hey, you're gonna be there for thirty days or sixty days or ninety days or a year. You're just gonna be there, and today decided to let you out, And so you can never really put your feet on solid ground. And it's the it's the most barbaric stripping of a human being.

People often ask why do I write from such a space of vulnerability. It's because I've already been stripped of everything um And so for me, regaining ownership over my life, you know, requires me to confront the things that have made me uncomfortable in life. And you know, when I think about my therapeutic processes since I've been out, and I promised, I can't wait for y'all to read this book.

And it's not even just on the sales pitch, but I get into like the molecular level of what it was like coming out because those that know, when you know, the public, the public facing side, right, the accomplishments, the accolades. But I talked about in a new book, the Dark Side of It, what happens when the lights go off, you know, when the cameras are not there. I'm alone in the hotel room, um, processing all the trauma that

I've just vomited up. And you know, so I started seeking out counseling, and I started seeking out therapy, and sally, Um, it's really hard to find a black therapist. It's hard to find a black male therapist that doesn't have a back case load of people that can't afford to give you the attention. And the last therapist I have cool do. But the same thing continues to happen over They get so enrapture in the reality that I survived what I survived,

that I almost become their therapist. And they can't even believe that I thrive at this level and that I've been able to do the things that I do and still show up as a full human being. Where they're like, damn, well, what do I need to do, you know what I'm saying, um, And so it's made it very difficult, you know, but I'm really I can tell you, I'm really fortunate. I read a lot of books, I write, you know, writ

and writing this my therapy, you know. And I just have incredibly beautiful people in my life, people who I can talk to about all the things, you know, and and you know, having having you know, being a dad where a lot of my fatherhood has been as a

single dad. You know, it's really watching my son's processes, watching who he is and how he's become without all the trauma, has helped me even understand the depths of the trauma, because a lot of the trauma we talked about right now is like prison and and and gun violence. But it's deep. It goes back to our childhood, you know. It goes back to what happens in our household, and whether it's out of survival, whether it's out of a

repeated cycle. A lot of that trauma that comes from there it bleeds over into how we show up in the rest of the world. So I'm just a big advocate of people really taking care of their mental health, emotional health, cutting off the things and the people that don't serve where you're trying to get in life. Um, I don't have no problem setting down shop at this point. You know, I've matured and grown to a space, a really uderstanding that we as black men specifically, we deserve joy.

You know, we deserve to be able to receive love, not just show love. We deserve to be a provided for and not just be providers. And that is holistic living and experience that we've been robbed of and deprived of, and oftentimes we've deprived ourselves of it. And so you know, for me, therapy is that, as you know, it's really important. And last ye I'll say this. I ran into a

Yalla what did minor work with before? And we were we were we were just talking briefly, I mean like a five minute talk, and what she said to me has left for imprint on me that I know what I need to do is she said, Shockra, no matter how you show up in the world, no matter how brilliant, how talented, how successful you are, what happened to you is embedded in you physically, and you have to move

that energy out of your body. And I was like, damn, she was like, as a human being, you can not be confined to solitary for seven years without that impact in your sales, like the cellular nature of your being, you know. And so it's just like it started showing me like all these little things, these nuanced things, you know, the emotional disconnect that comes so easily, uh, you know, emotional distance from anything that's inconvenient, not even just hard

that's inconvenient. I don't have time for that, you know what I'm saying. Who got time for those feelings? Right? Not not even liking being touched, Like it took years for me to be comfortable with like just a hub, you know how I have conversations to be able to enjoy and express myself without skepticism, you know. And so you know, there's long term implications of incarceration, and it doesn't matter the length of time I promised you, um, you know. And and this is something that I think

we can all appreciate. I'm a big fan of hip hop, you know, I'm I think I'm one of the biggest fans of hip hop. Pay attention to every artist was ever been arrested for any amount of time, The indignity of being strict searched of the indignity of being, you know, having officers look in your most intimate of spaces, the indignity of being shoring up all agency over anything that you would normally do as an adult like that psychologically damage you. And none of them have ever been the same.

After that, you see a heightened aggressiveness. You see a heightened defensiveness because these are real consequences of what prison does far beyond you know, so car protecting the community, so a big advocate for mental health. Happy y'all are talking about it, and you know, such a pleasure to meet you brothers Kevin. You know don Diva saved my life many times in prison, you know, renos articles and

just keeping us connected to what was going on in community. Um, and it's so dope to just see, you know, a brother who was actually not just a legal counsel but also blessing us with the Jews, so that you know, any event we need to understand what's happening legally, we had it at our disposal. So I can't wait to grab your brother's books. Definitely, I'll make sure make sure

that you're connecting. You'll change exchange information that y'all stay connected because these are type of brothers that y'all need to read. And I can just see y'all creating and building together something that would be, you know, phenomenal. So that's that was my process when I put this whole thing together. So we gotta go. Job. You know, I have to give you a little bit of props. I usually beat you up, but you know a little something

made me look good. I appreciate. So listen. So listen, man, we gotta go because we can just have this whole conversation. You probably can do this for four or five hours. You know, I'm just I'm an old old of you guys man, So make sure you get your book, Royce, what's the name of your book? Cardiac Arrest Tactical Guide on how to handle unlawful police stops. You're also having a work footfall, and I'm gonna do Shocker, dude. I'll show you the work books and then you go all right,

all right, shock? What's the name of your book? Said? One more time? New one the New Books Letter to the Size of the Society of Father's invitation to love, honesty and freedom. I understand freedom. Make sure you go get that book and Kevin let him know the name of your book. Crack Ever the Rods Fall and redemption of Kevin Charles and went in the country we built. That's right, and all this black excellence in these black books, Man, make sure you go out and get everybody. And my

book is I Know My Rights. It's the first ten amendments of the Constitution, just broken down for our youth to understand their rights when they're actually engaged by law enforcement and have to deal with the law in any you know, um capacity. So thank you guys. I appreciate you, man. I look forward to continue to build with you, brothers. I'm glad that I got all y'all speed down, man, so I shate your nothing, beloved man, continue to be great.

Make sure you go get all of these books. These books are things that are going to elevate you and give you understanding of what we go through in this culture and how us as black men have to adapt and continue to evolve and go through so many things, but still we rise. Man. I appreciate you brothers. I love you all. Thank you you did good because that was that was powerful. Chill man. Shout out to those brothers.

Royce Russell, Shokus and Gore and Kevin, three people that I respect, you know, I call them for different jewels and they there. I mean, it was powerful. There was so much, you know, also being around you. And let me just give a shout out to my brother del Song, who is the person that actually connected me with Kevin.

He's another dude that is another real insightful brother that I to give me a lot of insight and jews from shut up to I gotta get in my d m s and debate with Delson because he loves to debate me on on things or give me a little bit of information about stuff I may not be paying

attention to. But I'm gonna tell you when I listened to them and what they were saying, I think about just over time and specifically since I'm with you and Angelo Attorney, Angelo pintol Our other co found that until freedom and since I'm with y'all so much, and I listened to the things y'all say. You may not think so, because Lynda and I argued back and forth from Joab all the time, but I do listen. And even in my book where you wrote your part, your your piece,

where you talk about your experience. You say starting out that you have always felt like there was no one that you could depend on, and then hearing Royce also say that, like you know, he had to be his

own cheerleader. It's just it resonates so much the stories that no matter what the bad ground maybe or where you all have come gone and how you've evolved, there are still these fundamental challenges about black men not feeling supported, love, respected, um and and that's painful to hear, especially being the mother of a black son, because I don't want him to feel that way. But there's something about society that just does that to our men. It is man and

it's a common threat. When you listen to roy say that I was, I shook my head, like wow, you feel like you're your own cheerleader. You don't want to be disappointed, so you just figure it out. Cared was talking about how he just became he normalt Like I said, a lot of times, we've normalized ab normality. He normalized disappointment. He's emostly detached. When you listen to Shocker, he could just walk away. He don't even want to deal with

anything that inconveniences him. Right when you when you go through so many things in life and you deal with certain levels of trauma, imprisonment, you know, violence and all those things, you become numb to certain things. You become so detached, like I feel like I need levels of seclusion in my life. I just need to be by myself.

I don't you know, I can't share space. It's so many different things that we deal with as black men going through we we've been through, man, and just hearing them just say it right, and and and just being able to say word. You know, I know what that is, man.

So it's therapeutic just listening to other people who have shared experiences, who have shared emotions and things that you dealt with that you never even been able to express or tell to anybody else, and is to hear them freely, Like you said, be transparent and vulnerable on this space was just something that was very enlighten. It is, isn't

it crazy? Maybe maybe this is the wrong perspective, but how the things that cause us trauma also can teach us such powerful lessons, Like the things that we see that might not be good for us on one hand, actually teach us humility and other things. So I talked about my my cousin Jimmy. You know, we call all older people uncle, so his uncle Jimmy to me, but he was actually my cousin and he used to come to our house every Sunday when we lived in the projects.

He was on drugs, homeless, and he had aids. He was bleeding at times, he had all kinds of issues. I probably, as a young kid, shouldn't have been seeing that right at the dinner table in our house. They cleaned the area, but they fed him. That trauma also

taught me humility. It was important for me to see my family not think that they were so uppity that they would not still take care of and love up on a family member who was, you know, going through He was at the end of his life, and it's like we black folks just have to We always have to juggle with so many different realities and then be able to get the best from the worst. So watching him in his situation wasn't because I I remember it

and it traumatizes me at times. His smell, his all of these things that he was going through, but he also was so he loved us so much and he was able to come that to a home despite whatever his situation is. I know that did something good for me, even though the images are are things I'll never get out of my mind. That's real when you know, we we learned, like you said, we learned from our trauma

and it teaches us certain things. Man, so dope episode, you know, shout out to those brothers, and that brings me to my I don't get it. What don't you get this? So we talked about all of these real things, like this is a really real deep episode and reality, you know, this is like real realities, the things tangible, things you see, you touch, you smell, you actually engage in.

And as we moved towards you know, the future, the future, the future, and we talk about n f T S and crypto right and and those being the next biggest things. And I get why, you know, I get what's going on because you know, I got kids that play PS four and all these things, PS five and ps FO. They really listen to me. They play PS five, But

these kids love that PS four. They don't even my kids don't even I brought the PS five from them last Christmas that they ain't open and they're playing, still playing the PS four. I don't know what it is, but that's just the thing. But when you look and see how day on this game and every day Keston, my youngest son, comes to me like that I need twenty dollars I set for what for v Bucks? I'm like, what is v Bucks? I want to buy the new skin.

I want to buy this. And he's paying for virtual outfits, literally paying for clothes, and even he's paying for clothes. So I realized that this is the future because all the kids are doing it. They want v Bucks, they want v Bucks. So n f t S actually makes in that regard. But the reality is people are going to be investing in owning virtual stuff like it's a

real life. Like people are going to be buying things on the internet like it's a real place that they're actually visiting, like clothing and shoes and shopping for food. Like they had a whole program where you go in Walmart and you're shopping like you and you're spending real money, like you have some kind of tangible something from that. But in their mind, it is because they've created a whole universe that you live inside this universe and you you tune in and it's like a real life, and

that's what the future is going to look like. And I just don't get how we've normalized some shing like that, like how have we it just has It's not I don't think that's progression. I know what I'm saying, Well, progress, I don't mean progress and a positive or negative. I'm just saying it's, um, it's developed into uh more expensive, more whatever. Right, I don't even know the proper words

I'm looking for. But when i'm because I bought stuff too, I want first of all, if you think about a doll baby, we had to buy all the extra little clothes the top, but your own doll baby the world. So you're in the computer, so somebody has so listen to me. They're gonna have Louisa tone stories, They're gonna have all of this in the metaverse. Will you actually spend money for those clothes as pretty much the same prices that you spit out here, and you're gonna own

them inside the metaverse? It's it's it's it's what's happening. Almost two thousand dollar? You know? The cell phone is almost two thousand dollars? Get it? But I own my phone though, see I can touch this it stores of things. Yeah, like a metavert. It's not even it's virtual reality. Like we're really gonna be paying to own things in virtual reality with a lot of real money and people invest.

And that's what the future is going to party, what it's going to do with your friends, your friends being the party virtual and the thing is, what that's gonna do is just eliminate people from really this is what the pandemic. It's a problem, like people are going to live so much in virtual reality that they're not even gonna be living in real reality. That's gonna be their

real reality. Let me tell you right now. Right now, people think Instagram and whatever else, these different online things, that's the Instagram. But at least Instagram is pictures of your real life. Right, It's going to be living in your that's not in the metaverse. Is not your real life. No, it is, because it's gonna be your picture. Right, It's gonna be you like you, like you inside that you're

moving around inside this place. The thing. Your friends will be on the headphones and you'll see and hear them speaking to you, and y'alla be together. So instead of writing on Instagram a message back and forth you will be acting out whatever it is that you're saying to your friend or having the conversation with them in person. Anyway, no way. Our show has been long, but it was

a dope show. Shout out to the brothers who came up here, and make sure you get all of these books Cardiac Arrest, The Crack Error by Kevin Child's, Cardiac Arrest by Royce Russell, and Society. Go out and get those books into me because it's still one of the best sellers out here. Make sure you go get that. And with that said, into the show. We appreciate you. Make sure that you continue to make us number one she Politicians, number one podcast in the world. I'm not

number one in our hearts. We need people number one existence. I'm not saying that that we don't. But if the thing is, if people believe that it's already there, not pushing I'm telling you no, no, you listen. People want to watch me, get me the best number. And y'all, I'm not gonna always do right to me. It's not gonna always be wrong. We will both always mean, always, always always always be authentic.