Racial Disparity in the Criminal Justice System

And you know, I've been going out at night here and there. Okay, I just wanted to be I just want the record outside with it. I've been going out. I've been looking cute and doing something because sitting in the house is not going to accomplish any other thing that I need to get done there. You can't make no money in the house. People are yeah. But the thing is, in order to get the position in the house, you got to go outside, find the people, get the

relationships set up. Then you can bring the work inside the house and make it happen. But you're not getting ready to sit all day long on the internet and never um with network with other individuals and then just come up with a million dollar thing. It's not gonna happen. Even if you have a new product. You might be making it in your basement, but at some point you got to go selling it to somebody. Well, you got enough resources. At this point, you've got enough resources relationships.

If you come there, you can sit there because you've done it, and get on that computer and say let's figure this out. Because I've been your way. I've been telling you get outside of you where you've got to go outside. I don't need to be outside. My bid is perfect. I got my com you I'm working a sudden, I still have to go outside. I still have to go outside. I still have to be at events. I still have to Now we're opening back up. You know, students don't want to necessarily be on virtual so I

have to go to states and meet people. COVID is becoming a thing again where all of a sudden, folks are starting to get infected with COVID and in large groups. Um, I just had Actually, my makeup artist was just telling me that a group of her friends were together recently. They've been getting together for a while, but just this time that they got together, several people within the group got COVID. Hopefully all of them will be fine and it won't, you know, be life threatening. But that's also

a thing. So you know, there's a lot of stuff happening as always. But I do think that unfortunately we have to I don't think we should ever return to a time where people have to work every day outside of their homes. I do not think that that is um productive. I think we are. I don't know if that's really true. I just I think there has to be a balance of anything. That's what I'm saying. I said, That's why I said every day, Well, because I love

that you have. Right. You can't sweep You can't sweep the floors from your house, you know what I'm saying. You can't. You can't manage the story that's down a block from your home. But what you can do, though, is set it up where people have a work schedule that allows coverage of individuals, so that one person is not sweeping the floors for you know, forty hours a week, but instead they get a certain amount of hours a pay increase, so they're still making the same amount of money,

but they don't really, they don't really. How you getting pad? You want somebody getting paid? Let's work. No. No, that means, first of all, because first of all, people should to be allowed time to be able to take a class, learn some other. If we're if America is going to at any point ever in life, in my lifetime, in your lifetime, accomplish what it says and and rise to its greatest place, then we would give people tools that they need so that they can make more money and

be more successful. Right, But if you're a person who's working all day, maybe two or three jobs, you might not have time to take a class. Also while you're trying to take care of your kids so you can get that promotion or what have you. The whole problem is that people who are sweeping floors are getting paid below the wage that it is required for them to

be able to take care of their families. So if you're making eight dollars an hour, that should not be a thing anymore in our society, people, the minimum wage increase at fifteen dollars should be the norm, and fifteen dollars ain't ship. So the thing about this, let's say I got a little mom and pop store, right, I'm paying five thousand dollars a month for the rent. I'm paying each employee fifteen fifteen dollars. I need about five or six employees, and I don't make the amount of

money to pay none of these people. So those those things are realistic. So if if you have, if you're saying that people have to have a minimum amount of things, then there's less employees that I have. So if it's less employees that I've had able to pay fifteen dollars, and it's less people that's able to work throughout forty our day. So if I only got if I gotta pay everybody fifteen hours, I've only got two people I could pay, right, because I can't afford to pay nobody

else because I'm not making enough money. That the rent is too high, especially when you look at inflation, the rent and every the rent is too damn how everything is going all the way up. So to be able to do what you're talking about, it's very hard. I

have to say two points on this. The first thing is that our government should be given better subsidies to small businesses, right, so that these small businesses can access capital to keep them afloat where they have two pools of money, the money that they're bringing in from their products and services and the money that the government is

supposed to give and does give to some some businesses. Right, Because if you are an m WBE in New York and I don't know about other cities, I know that there are m w b E programs other places, but certainly in New York State, which is a minority woman owned business, right, and you apply for all of this stuff that takes of course, it's like it's like it's it's almost like laying yourself on a slab and telling somebody to stab you a thousand times in order for

you to actually get the certification. But if you're able to get it one, you get in the pipeline for more contracts. And that's everything from food services, cleaning services, so that's the little sweeping the floor jobs you're talking about, all the way up to you know, big contracts for the airport and the build things and what have you. You're supposed to be in line and sometimes front of the line to be able to put r FPS into

get those programs. But then there are also subsidies that come down from the state that should go to these small businesses so that you can stay afloat, so that you can especially in times of like you've got COVID and you have other things that happen that will help you to be able to pay your bills. The problem is that m w b S black folks try to apply for you know how difficult it is for us with application processes. But what they say is women owned businesses.

So guess what happens. White women go get the licenses and the certification and then they become the owner of the businesses that their white husbands are running. So again, every area there is at the system, use the system as it currently stands. But then the second thing is it's corporate greed, right, because a part of being able to level out things in our society is that corporations are taking so much. They have employees that are not

being paid properly. Uh, they are not giving the appropriate benefits, and they're not paying their do share of taxes and other things to our society. And so therefore we're living in an unbalanced network if you will, or reality, and that's one of our biggest challenges. So everything that I'm talking about, yeah, that's like vision for the future. That's hoping one they will find a president. One day, there will be a president that will come forward that will

have Donald Trump's balls. But excuse me, I don't know if I'm supposed to say that, Hey, I said it, I don't try. Um testicular fortitude, but testicular fortitude, but but but but um the moral standing of someone who actually wants to do right by society where they will say, I don't care if I don't get elected for another four years, but this is the ship that I'm gonna put in place, and I'm going to hold to my

word regardless of whether people like me or not. I don't know when that's ever gonna happen because everybody is out here so much for elections, but I would hope that, yeah, that's that's gonna I don't see that really happening. I don't see. But just understanding the justice system, in the legal system and all of this system and government, now, I just understand that it's it's it's all a game.

So the game. So we just got to figure out how we could play the best we can and how do we exist within it and build structures, small structures that we can build infrastructures within this that eventually take over that I guess when you really think about it, is certain businesses essential businesses. That definitely And to my point, if those people have to go to work for forty hours a week, they damn sure should be being paid

essential wage right um. But at the same time, I feel like people who work from home, or or excuse me, people who have jobs that are able to be conducted from home, they should be able to be on a schedule that provides opportunity for them to be with their kids, for them to uh, you know, go to a class, take care of themselves, and still be able to work.

But then, yes, I think we all should absolutely be outside around other individuals, talking, networking and connecting with people, because there is there is is one ent a problem with folks sitting at home and really starting to suffer from mental health issues, you know, as a result of them not being around other people. So I agree with you about that. Speaking of people being at home, can we talk about what's happening with public safety and schools.

I mean, you've been getting calls every day from interview It's unbelievable. Like you know, first of all, there's always somebody getting shot man or repeat to the four kids that just got killed in ten people got shot. Another vigilante is like, how does how does that continue? That? You know, Like, I really just I'm not saying vigilante. I wanted to say school shooting, not vigilante because it

wasn't virginated. But how does it constantly? Are these kids able to walk into schools with guns and kill people? It's just to me, it just makes no sense. You know. But Ray Ray is walking into school with a gun too, But I'm not saying he's not. But and I'm saying, how is he doing it right? How is it? You want more metal detectives, what you want? What I want is more not metal detectives. I want more school probing.

I want more school being attentive to the children. And and maybe I don't know if it's metal detectives per se, but I think that there has to be something set up to what kids aren't able to walk into school with guys, you know, like the only thing is that means law enforcement. So we have to And I'm glad we're having this conversation because we really do need to talk through what is the next level? Right We there

is law enforcement is what people can people immediately go towards. Now, we could say, well, we need to put more anti violence experts in the school, right, brothers like Shan Duke mcvadda and others who A C. Mitchell and and I mean, I could get in trouble because the list is so long of those people who do that work. And we

can say let's put them in the school. But then if something happens and they are not accredited or have some type of specific certificate from the state or the city, they put themselves in danger that if something happens is blamed or placed at the feet of the anti violence expert. But then you have law enforcements in the in the school, and clearly with metal detectives and everything else, that's not working. So I don't know. I think I think there has

to be assistance. I just think that at this point, I think that definitely needs to be different gun lawers. Um. I think there should be some systems set up. I don't know if he's medal detectives per se, but I think schools should have some type of structure which when you're just not allowed in school with guns, Like I just think there should be similar And I don't not allowed in school with guns now, but they're constantly getting

in there with and killing people. So there has to be something, you know, I don't I'm all against over policing, but I do think in these kids, our kids should be able to go to school and be safe, like kids should not have to you know, like you said that the bullying and the way the kids are being the lack of real protection in school for kids is detrimental, like you you're, we're I've literally watched, you know. I

even think about when I was in school. They were kids able to come to school from different schools and just walk in and jump people. And you know, back in the days, we had um um gangs called the Deceptive Cons who used to literally get on trains and come to school, jump people, slashed them, robbed them, like do all these things. And that was happening back in the nineties, you know, in in the late eighties, So

that was happening in our high school. They was able to get into school and roll people, you know, at gun point, at night point. So I think there has to be a more robust strategy to protect kids, especially when you start getting high school. Like bullying in high school and not as much as junior, but high school is a big thing. You know, there's a it's a real big thing. And I have friends, we both have friends who are reaching out saying that they're having issues.

I remember my son was going to school in in um Washington Heights and he's like kids were trying to jump them. Like I literally had to go to school. It was kids. It was all out bras. I remember we used to have bras and people brought guns to school. And it's like, there has to be a strategy to which, oh you have people, like you said, violence interruptors who are in those streets and you know, in those communities, in those schools who probably kids who graduated from school

and still have some notoriety in the schools. They just don't want to go to college or whatever, and they have a job and they're like monitors kind of like we remember we had whole monitors back in the days, Like we should have advanced monitor whole monitors who who go to the schools, who in the school yards, who had lunch rooms, hearing such such because it's always a gossip on such such as defense, they're gonna they're gonna fight after school and we're gonna jump them, like and

they are able to get in front of those things because it's a serious thing, Like it's not like little kids fighting in the school. At that point, it turns to with guns and knives and people are losing their lives in schools. Yeah no, I mean, listen, you're not gonna get a debate out of me. Something has to

be done. I know, and and and and I think it starts with the top because the administration in many of these schools is not doing enough, either because they don't want to touch it or they don't want their school ranked as being violent, um you know on there

in the stats. Also because privacy and protection becomes a thing, especially when you have ignorant parents like the parents of the young man who just killed those folks in whatever state that was in the white parents that told his uh you know that, told him don't get caught next time.

In the text messages. You either have ignorant parents like that like Kyle Rittenhouse's mother who's an evil criminal that took her son somewhere with guns that she knew he wasn't supposed to have, or you have ignorant parents like Titia or you know Lisa in our community, who is talking about leave my son alone, don't say shipped to my son, you know, or my daughter whatever outcome of thing, do x y Z. And that's right, it's on. So like you, on all sides, you've got parents that become

big part of the problem, a big part. And we don't like to talk about that. We love to sit by and watch a racist white person do something crazy and then we talked about them. We love to sit by and watch you know, uh, somebody who is you know, a serial killer that we can identify all the things that happened, and how to parents with no good and this and that the third. But we don't like to also sit down and talk to regular folks that look like me and you in our communities and say this,

cut it out. We need to be involved too. You do, you definitely do so. I don't you know, I don't know. I don't know how you stop a person from bringing guns and me, we just saw that a kid in New York a couple of weeks ago had a gun. He got caught with a gun and thirty thou dollars and then once they did more investigation. There were more guns in the school. Whether or not they were connected to him. I didn't follow the story enough to find out, but I know that there were guns in that school.

So we know that this is a problem that's happening. And to your point, it's got to be dealt with because people. History has shown when we don't address it as an institution, the school, the parents, people die, people commit suicide, people drop out of school. You want to know why your kid isn't paying attention, Probably because they're depressed. They might be being bullied, they may just be tied

in the bullshit. Can't even focus in class. I know when I was in school sometimes I could not focus in class for all the outbursts and the yelling and screaming that went on. We're all types of kids. So you can't say, well, let's go to the white schools because you've got kids that's showing up. They have piste off about whatever their problems are, out of their parents basement, shooting up the building. You can't say, okay, well let's go to the school with the Latino kids because guess what,

they slice your face. You can't say let's go to the school with the black kids, because there's game wars everywhere. Are people turned everywhere, We turned their problems and discrimination and ways that you could try to escape the system, and you can't. You cannot can't. System. This system is is well, is well designed for failure and when you get out. That's why I celebrate anybody that gets out

of the system. And because it's set up, like I tell people all the time, when I look at the school system and the structure and being incarcerated, it's pretty much the same thing. It pretty much mirrors the average school, pretty much mirrors the way that the prison is designed. In the coloring, the way it looks all of these mess hall looks like the lunch room. The gym looks like the same gym. Like. The only thing that's not

in the classrooms is there. The only thing that the classrooms imitate the sales, because the way it's lined up door to door. The only thing that the schools don't have it sells. So you know, when you think about it, man, I don't know, man, we we thing you want more metal sectors or some kind of way, I do, because that's the way that they protect you into jails, right because you gotta walk through metal detectives. So a lot of times they catch you when you got a knife.

That person they're gonna bring a knife to certain places, or they figured out how to do it because they know that metal tech, they're gonna go off. Right, it's a lot more safer, and unfortunately we we I don't know if it's metal text is the answer, like I said, but I know there has to be something that makes it impossible, you know, or highly unlikely or hard as hell for you to get in school with a gun

and kill somebody. Well, I'm sure there are some people and at anti violence space that would say no more. You know, it's not about police surveillance, not about metal detectives. I guess that's what they would say. I don't know. I'm with you, we don't know, but we're gonna find out. I was just thinking about this, right and you know, I'm on social media on certain platforms um for different reasons.

Facebook specifically, I go there because my family members and friends are there, and when I post to Instagram, which is where I am most of the time, it shares over the Facebook, and I often forget the days to go on there and check out the comments. But my cousin's my parents. Shout out to my father who just turned seven, me five years old two days ago. Man at seventy five years a good man too. It's a lot that a lot of brothers can learn from, stand Mallory.

But anyway, but he would say it took him seventy five years to learn it. Also, um but I go there, You know, I try to keep up with Facebook, and so there is this. It happens on Instagram too, but it's very different. But on Facebook, there's a group of maybe four people that come to my page every single time I post something and say this is not important. You should be talking about this. This how you know this don't make sense? Um or or you're wrong on

this issue. You need to be stick with. One of their main things is cash reparations, cash reparations. Who says I don't support cash reporace? And then you know what they do is they take clips of things you said and they try to make a narrative like, oh, Tamika Mallory doesn't support cash reparations. Actually, what I said was that I don't believe that reparations is just cash. I didn't say don't give cash I said, it's more than cash.

It's also land, it's also housing, it's opportunities, it's equity, it's being able to go. Not just yes, the cash is ultimate in terms of going into the bank, but first of all, you've got to be able to get approved for a loan right when you go into the bank. Right that education that reparations for us needs to be a system overhaul. And of course yes, cash is a part of it, and no one is taken that away.

But there was a little clip that you know where of course I was saying, I don't believe that reparations is just put in cash in our hands. It's also all these other things. And now that's the narrative that

Jamika Mallory doesn't support cash reparations. I don't care not going to even argue that point, because I know what I do, what I not only what I believe in, but also what I have been supporting for years as I work alongside people like Reverend Mark Thompson and Ron Daniels and others who do work every day on reparations. So let's put that um to the side. But they come there and they are constantly saying I post a picture about Cardi b oh this, there's better things to

worry about. What I my thought of the day today is says who about what somebody should want to talk about on there personal page. I have never been to anybody's page except yours. But other than you, I'm never going to anyone's page and said you shouldn't talk about this. They might be in the beauty business. So it's like Yandy has Yells skincare, and I love the fact that, you know, she does all her videos about Yell. She's so much into her, uh you know, the beauty industry,

learning more about it, promoting her brand. But sometimes she might want to talk about I don't know, bubble cootes. That's her prerogative and her page, her page prerogative. I'm just why why do people think they get to policia page to tell you what you should be interested in? Like who who? Your people are really crazy? But if it's more important things to talk about, you should talk about this. That's what I'm talking I'm talking about what

I want to talk about on my page. You don't get the dictate like this is what I think that on with people? Right? And I say all the time, we are not This is not your grandmother's civil rights right. We we we have there's a movement. We have evolved into a different space. This is hip hop culture. This is you know, our lives. This is what we've learned and how we've we've taken on civil rights and activism and organizing as us. We didn't just follow a script

and look like the last freedom fighters. And we didn't. We didn't do that right. We said to ourselves we love the culture, we love hip hop, we love doing all of these things, but we also want to fight for our people. We don't believe that people should be done. We we believe in equity and equality. We want to make sure that we're utilizing our platforms and our voices to make sure our people are safe. But we're gonna talk about some other ships. Sometimes we're gonna. We We're

gonna because that's who we are. We are not one dimensional individuals. We are not who you want us to be. And if you if if that's what you're looking for, you gotta go find that. You can't come on my page and tell me what how activism are You're supposed to be my activist. You shouldn't be told about you don't get to tell me that. Bro. If I'm an activist, right and activity means if you disrespect me, I'm gonna say, yeah, you can't disrespect me. If I think you're trying to

harm me, I might beat you up. I'm not gonna shoot you, ain't gonna stab you, but we might get into your fist fight. Because that's my activism. That's how activism looks for me. It looks that way Malcolme was by the window. What is things saying? Look about any means necessary? Activism looks different to different people. So I don't want you to hold me to a level of activism to where you might have seen Mom Luther King. I love Moms the King, I love the speeches. I

love a lot of things about them. But I'm practicing non violence like I'm I'm still struggling for me. I'm anti violence means I'm against non violence means you would never engage. I'm gonna get violence. But the minute that you try to harm me or you do something that's detrimental to me and my family, I'm going to protect myself. I'm gonna speak up against things that I don't like. I don't care. I come from hip hop. So when something bothers me a hip hop I'm gonna say something

about it. Oh, you shouldn't be worried about that, ain't you know? Bro? I'm worried about it. Who can wrap over here? And I'm also worried about getting off for the neck. I can worry about all those things. You don't get to tell me that I don't have opinion because that's what you think. Activism looks like. That's what you think civil rights leaderships looks like. I'm sorry, that's not who I am. And I'm throwing a two piece man, and I tell people all that while you're a little yeah,

I'm gonna throw a two pieces touch. But overall I agree with you a thousand percent that folks should find the folks that are doing what you want to do, or you should do it right. Everybody is not going to do things the same way. We all have what we are very interested in. So so another person jumped in the consisences, well why are you mad at this person, which, by the way, is a troll, and it's well, the person says, I'm not a troll. I am. I'm just

being consistent. You're a troll. When I go to your page and you have either no pictures or a faith profile. You are a troll, right, You're a troll when you come when you've been coming to my page for several months, and I disrespectfully tell you to get the hell off my page and that I don't care about anything you have to say, whatever the issue is, whatever it is that you're trying to tell me, I'm not listening to it. Period.

If I'm gonna get to this point, if I'm gonna get to that point, it's gonna be because somebody else who also may not agree with me, but has a level of respect, And I can tell where that person is coming from that they're not They're trying to make me out. First of all, once you share a little clip of me that only speaks to part of what I said, try to build a narrative around in your troll and I don't funk with you. That's it. So

you you you you off the list. But if you come to me, just like I've had people I think about my brother Tony Lindsay, who he and I often don't agree, or we ultimately agree about black folks safety and freedom, but we often don't agree with certain candidates or certain things. But when he comes to me, if he sees one of those little clips, says, well, you know what was this or whatever, he doesn't send their

message to Amica, Tamka, you know what you meant by this? Yeah, that's that's the problem with you, Like, who are you talking to I'm not your kid, I'm not your kid. You don't you don't you don't support my organization, you don't support me, and you come in and talk to me, and you could come and say, hey, can you please help me understand what this meant in this clip because I don't necessarily get it. And here's what we're fighting for, says and I'm trying to see whether or not there

could be some alignment. You speak to me like that all day. I have something to say. But when you come to my page and you start sharing it and putting up things and Tamika is not for this, and you ain't this you're trying to create a navirative I see what you're trying to do. Just keep it moving. I'm not for you. I am not for you. And that's okay because they are artists out here that sing R and B that I don't like it the way

they sing it, so they're not for me. There are people out here that are elected officials that folks come to me and say, she's black, you should support her. But I look at things that she does and I don't support it, and I'm not gonna work with that individual. There are other organizations that I don't like how they move. They might be the ones that go out in the in the streets and when they protest and they're saying, fuck the police, suck the police, I'm gonna shoot you.

You know, we we killed police. That is not the way that I choose to protests. And therefore you probably won't see me doing much collaboration with those groups, right especially because when the ship goes down, right when it's all said and done and the and they just had to come down on us, guess who oftentimes gets the ship that goes with the fun The police speech me. They don't put you on Fox News every night and tell white crazy people that ultimately become my harassers, and

people who are sending me death threats. They don't put you on there, they don't care, they don't use your name. It's me that they plaster on freaking Fox News at Night saying that I'm a terrorist, or that I'm related, I have relationships with other terrorists, and that I support terrorism. It's me, So I have to be careful about what I do and don't do. We're not on the same level.

We're just not We're just not and and and guess what, I am also not on the same level as other people who are in this work that I realized have higher stakes than me. So there's certain things that I can do that other individuals can't because if they do it, they will actually be arrested, actually be arrested. So you know when I so, another person jumped in the comments and said, oh, well, you know, we should be collaborating, We should really be working together instead of us being

against one another. And that person's page looked like a troll also, But I took the time to explain that everybody is not does not want your opinion. Just because somebody is a black leader or whatever does not mean that they feel safe in certain environments with certain individuals.

Right they can feel like working with you is going to bring out the worst to me, or I already see that I don't like the way you move, and I don't want to work with you, that's okay, But you, sir, who seems to be defending this other individual, you should go work with them and wait for you to do it to make because they work for you obviously. The way that they work and the way that they move into things they say, they coincide with your moral compass and where you want to see things go. So you

should align with them. And I'll continue to align with the people that work best for me. It's simple. And and then I guess the response to that is, well, how can we ever get to where it is we're going if we can't sit down where people don't we don't agree with. And I'm gonna say it again, there are many people I think, I mean people in my family, people that I work with. I don't half way agree with you eighty percent at the time. You and not

get into disagreements. I don't agree with Angelo about half, you know, some of the things that he says. People don't agree with me. There are other individuals that are out here that contact me all the time. They don't support something I said, They don't like the way that we're organizing. They feel like we should be doing better.

This that different or whatever. But because they approach me with a certain level of respect where it's not trolling, where it is not harassment, because once I tell you too three times, I don't give a ship what you have to say. Leave me alone. If you keep talking to me and keep coming back to my page, that becomes harassment, right, because once it's rooted in disrespect, it is all and you can if you're comment on anything is rooted in disrespect, it's a non starter for right.

You could go to until Freedom's page and talk all day long, but my page, you don't get to come there and keep on trying to tell me that I have to speak to issues the way that you say, I probably will never do it, so that means that I may not be the leader for you. Now there are other people who who who come to me and they say, you know, I think you should change the way you know, you speak to certain issues or whatever. And I think about it, and I say, mmmm, that's important.

Maybe I could do this different. Maybe I can move differently in these areas or speak in the different way that comes from the way you approach people. And no, you can't then turn around and go, oh, you know, oh, well, well, let me let's start all over, not after for months and months have been disrespecting me. Go into your own page, right, and all of these things about me, that's not true, that's not so. That's what I have to say in

my thought of the day. Leave people alone that don't want to deal with you, and all you you, you work as hard as I have worked to become the leader that you want to see in the world. That is so simple. Man is everything and for everybody. I am a quiet taste. I am not for everyone, and I acknowledge that. And I appreciate those people who stay in their lane and stay away from me because we don't have the same views or even have the same more And I'm okay with that. I don't wish you

no harm. I wish you the best because if you ultimately want was best for black people, then we ultimately want the same thing. So if you get there first, then I'm I'm gonna comploud you, and I'm gonna follow you if you if you figure out a strategy that's gonna get us there better than the strategy I figured out to get us there, then I might follow for that. But until then I'm gonna follow the strategy that I knew this works best for me and aligns what it is that I want to see. That there it is

enough said what I'm saying. That's how. That's so we're being joined by a true powerhouse today. And you know, often we have two guests that come on, and you know, we talked to one individual who's really an expert and another who's a change maker doing incredible work in our community. And today we have one individual who embodies both things. Jason Flores Williams is an author, a political activist, and

a civil rights attorney. He's best known for his legal work on behalf of death row clients, political protesters, the home list population of Denver, and his lawsuit to have Colorado the Colorado River recognized as a legal person, which is something that we're gonna learn more about today because I didn't know that a river could be a legal person.

But I'm sure Jason is gonna explain it. Um Attorney Williams is an acknowledged expert in conspiracy law and First Amendment cases whose views are frequently sought out by media organizations like The Washington Post, of New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, and of course street politicians, and we're so happy to have you today, Attorney Williams. But I think it's okay for us to call you Jason. You got that right. I prefer thank you. It's a privilege to be on your show. Thank you so much for

coming on and speaking with us. So you specifically focus on something that is really important to us, which is um the the sentencing disparities for marijuana convictions. You gotta number of clients that you're dealing with, high profile individuals. Some Rock Nation, jay Z and others have been involved with trying to help get these individuals free. Tell us about that work. Oh that Look, what I can tell you is is the reason I got into this law, and it was kind of born into it in a way.

It was when I was twelve years old. My thought my family was ripped apart by the drug war. My father got sentenced to thirty five years in prison, and so I spent you know, my youth going to visit my old man and the joint. And then now you know, I said, look, I can't let what happened to my family happened to other people. So it's personal and when it comes down to the sentencing disparities. So imagine that I represent will not imagine I do represent people from

across the board racially, socio economically. And what I see consistently is that what you are going to be offered in court with regard to marijuana prosecutions or drug war prosecut ustians in general is going to be dependent upon who you are, meaning what race are you, where you come. You know, at a certain point, money in the criminal

justice system overcomes everything, but for the average person. So you take the average black man and you take the average white I can tell you in general that the average black man is going to be offered generally more time then the average white man. And I see it consistently if their last twenty years, you're gonna and expanding out in a way from just the drug war? Is that and I think you know that you'll know this.

The statistics bear this out, is that they're going to seek the death penalty, where they still seek the death penalty for people of color much more frequently than they will for white people. So you know, like they said, there there ain't no money on death row, and in a lot of ways, there's not that much money in the joint so yeah, this is what I see. But this all goes back to really, what is this thing we call the drug war? What is this thing we

call the criminal justice system? And the criminal justice system, of course, is mostly made up of drug crimes. That's what people in federal prisons and state prisons are doing. That's why they're there, drug crimes. And what this is that what the way I see it is they've always tried to kill two birds with one stone on the steel. The drug wars started off as an assault against Chicanos

and Latinos. You know, they didn't like the fact that Mexicans were coming into Texas and California, and so they penned you know, uh, they penned I should say, cannabis or molta pot on the Mexicans and try to make it into a dirty thing. At the same time, you have weed coming up in the jazz culture and what happened is there, So you've got kind of two birds there, so you can take out people of color by associating

them with a non white drug. At the time, although it's interesting, there's evidence of the Founding Fathers U spot if you want to call them the Founding Fathers but that's that was one. And then two, when we got into the Nixon era, you had the rise of the counterculture, and so by being able to criminalize people people of

color and the counterculture. And really, if you look at American history, anytime you get this u uh, even a potential width of a union between the lower classes or even middle educated classes people of color, the main power structure United States always has to do something to break that up because that's its worst fear. So so in that case of marijuana Nixon, the drug war, I mean, it was just you know, the thing of beauty. They

just went around, they destroyed families like mine. They they incarcerated, you know, just massive amounts of people of color, indiscriminately

and disproportionately. And that also at the same time you've got people who think differently in the free thinkers regardless of race or color, who end up, you know, doing twenty years for joint And so, you know, power structure did what it needed to do, and in a lot of ways still doing it because now if you look at who's making the money, and you've got Al Harrington, you know who he is, You do know he was a basketball player. Now he's out there. He's out there.

He's a brilliant guy. He's uh, what he's what he's investing in is using the emerging green industry, the green rush has a way to empower people of color. He says, he wants to make a hundred black millionaires in the new cannabis injuries industry. But despite that, despite that, right now, as it stands, it's the same old assholes making all

the money. And what really makes me want to, I don't know, break something or just keep fighting, is that a lot of times with cannabis right now, people making the money with people who are putting people away for it just ten years ago, which absolutely makes me sick. So hey, you know, I got people right now in

jail super max. Is um looking at life in prison for I got people, you know, And this is not even to get into and I know I've been talking for a while, This is not even to get into the kind of constitutional violations that the drug war and cannabis have enable law enforcement to and act and violate upon poor people, people of color, everyone else. So hey, you know, it's it's it's kind of the American way that we're dealing with here. Mm hmm. Yeah, it's something

that I've been talking about a lot. I have a lot of you know, being formally acconcerated and just coming from the hood quote unquote and knowing a lot of different individuals who that was their source of just survival, you know, selling pot and other things, and a lot of them did a lot of time or served a

lot of time. And now you know that is being able to be profited off of is becoming some legalized These same individuals who did ten five and six seven years you would have the opportunity to be able to engage in that field, right because you took their freedom away from now all of a sudden, is legal. You've criminalized these people for something that's legal now and now they don't have any recourse, they don't have any opportunities

to make money. So you know, like you said, it's the same old people, and like, so what is the process? What should we be doing? You know, is there any I heard that they were supposed to be some type of state grants and things of that nature that would give for people who were formally incarcerated for marijuana some type of opportunities, Like what does what does those things

look like? Well? I mean, I hope so, But I mean when we're talking about state grants, I don't know how state grants and that kind of money is going to equalize the power differentials when it comes to this already having money, right, I mean, well, we know here is there's a difference between income and capital wealth. So you make incomes, they make it like seventy g or you feel like, you know, maybe you're doing all right, and you know you busted. You're asked to be able

to make seventy. You get up to, you know, a hundred, but you're still making that income. And income really doesn't simply provide you with the kind of opportunities to garner a place in an emerging industry. It's wealth. So like, for example, right, so I made some money my firm, we made some money off some uh you know, saying hey, we'll help you. Try to get licenses in pot in various states, I can tell you everyone who got a license was already rich. It's because they had they could

show the resources so that the state. First off, with resources come connections, they know who you are, they're comfortable with you. Then everybody was always rich. They could show that they could pull it off and could do everything that they say they were doing so that they say they were going to do even if they didn't as far as their plans and applications for licenses. We're gonna have expensary, we're gonna have this that you know, cannabis,

spa and bail whatever it's gonna be. And so it's the ability to be its ability to be able to show resources, not just income or the ability to the ability to show resources and not just you know, basically state grants. I'm not gonna calm alone, but some degree of money that enables people access to the game. That's what I worry That's what that's what I worry about.

Right It's like we can say, hey, we're gonna do this, We're gonna do that, and we're gonna we're gonna try to, you know, slide a few bucks in a in a couple of different ways. That's why I go back to Harrington because I think he has a good vision for it. He's like saying, I'm not trying to get black people or people of color, are people who you know who

have suffered because of the drug war, just licenses. I'm trying to get them into that wealth zone with regard to this indugry, so we can carve out a place in an industry that just a few years ago and still is to a large degree absolutely resulted in the oppression and incarceration of poor people and people of coloring in the United States. So I don't know, man, I'm down hey with you. Let's get let's get some state

grants going and all that kind of stuff. But I don't know how that's gonna fix it this ferity, right, So exactly how that fixes the disparity, because you know, it's like the image that you see I've seen you know folks post it where it shows the difference between equity and equality and how equality maybe the two of us making the same amount of money now, but regardless, if you started with more than me, you'll will never

actually be equal, and equity would mean stopping to some degree. Um, I guess in this situation, uh, those people who have extreme capital, which would most likely be white men, from being able to access all of the licenses and opening all of their marijuana locations, we would put that on hold while bringing up the amount of people who are either you know, come from marginalized communities, people who Um, are you know, formally incarcerated as has been said, and

just people who don't otherwise have the opportunities. But I can't imagine, assist a place of time in American history where we would ever see, um, you know, white men not benefiting from the capital that they have. So I do agree with you about that. So I know that you can't stay with us forever, although you're so packed with information that we could sit here and talk to you for a while. But you have a number of cases, um, that you're dealing with now that are actually very high

profile cases, UM, that you're involved with. Do you want to talk about some of them? And um, and and and also is there a way that we as an activist community can help to bring attention to what is happening in this moment with some of the individuals that you work with. I mean, that's a great question, and I appreciate it. Yeah, I've got, like like I said earlier, I've got guys who are right now see for weed, sitting in supermatch jails awaiting trials right now. What you say,

we um, Jason, what does that mean? Does it mean they had truckloads of marijuana where they were making millions of dollars or were they was it small level cases like when you say, what's the scale of weed that we're talking about? Well, usually these days, I'm gonna be straight with you, although I just saw a case out of Iowa or where a guy was going to prison for just possession. More normally these days where we're talking

about is distribution. All that means really is well, you've got white capital, right, You've got the the usual suspects in the suits with the m b a's who are making millions of the off the exact same activity, except so there you know, investments, hedge funds. Cannabis is a market,

that's all it is. I remember in federal court recently I was arguing about cannabis and I made something called an equal protection argument, which is the fourteenth Amendment, and that says, hey, you gotta treat citizens the same deeper protection are Equal protection actually came out of um UH immediately after the Civil War, when it was obviously like, hey, we had a civil war, black people are free, were great and everything, Well, obviously it was all bullshit because

we had Jim Crow come in. So they had to do something called the Fourteenth Amendment to try to protect the rights of all people. So the fourteenth Amendment says, hey,

citizens are treated uniformly allegedly. So I was in court making a Fourteenth Amendment argument, saying, hey, you got this guy being busted for weed, facing twenty years in prison, is in federal port and meanwhile, you have other people who are right now, you know, driving and BMWs to their dispensaries and selling licensing, and there's inter intellectual property rights and investment opportunities and all this kind of stuff, and the pot is anyway, I said, hey, you know,

let's just imagine that weed was widgets and these are just widgets, like economically, and the prosecutor freaked out, Widge, it's widgets. What the hell these aro? You know, I just started making this thing that I was just looking at marijuana as just another commodity upon which millions and billions of dollars being made, which they are so turning this back into what we're looking at, and the kind of the kind of things that I'm seeing these days.

All I'm seen is the same old disparities, right, the same old thing. The people that I have in jail who are high profile or not high profile, and then a day, you know, jail sales don't have names on them. You know, it don't matter if you're high profile, NATO profile, You're gonna be in a jail cell. You're in a jail cell. And you know that, my friend, because you just talked about being incarcerated. So that's right. So so at the end of the day, you're in a supermax,

you're a super max. You're in a freaking county jail. You're in a county jail. But isn't it interesting that after the fourteenth Amendment and that and the movement after the Civil War is called reconstruction, is after the Orgin Amendment, and after everything else, and after the legalization, after proving that the drug war is essentially been bs from day one, which and racially motivated incentivized, what we see is the same old thing happening, the same old thing even better.

I mean, it's even a better deal because they're still using the drug ward to incarceraate people of color, free thinkers, killing all those birds with all them or maybe just one stone all at the same time, the same people are making all that money. And that's what really pisces me off. So as far as bringing attention to it. What I really want to bring attention to is the way that federal prohibition of cannabis, inside the greater context of the drug war itself, is still being used to

enforce the same power differentials in the United States. And if we can do something about that, Hey, you know that's why what do you think we should start? How do we start that? Like understanding the disparities, understand how the system is structured, and you know, they utilize us and criminalize for these same things and animating billions of dollars.

What would you say as a lawyer would be the first step of us doing something to make sure that citizens that will return to citizens who who were who you know, victims of being inconcerated it this and just average people in the communities have opportunities to be able to benefit from Okay, well to there there's there's really Let me let me start by saying one thing. You know who you know who Hughey Newton was right? Yes,

of course, of course. So you have Hughank Newton, right, you Hurey Newton, uh, you know allegedly killed or you know you did kill shot a couple of cops in open now you would say a black man, especially Hughey Newton back in open and somebody's gonna know that I'm off on that day probably or maybe I'm not. Is uh, you know you're going down. You can't kill a cop. You can't kill white cops and open but the black

panthers and all the supporting communities and everything else. They went to the courthouse where he's being tried every day and so and ultimately, due to the fact that he had a great lawyer named Charles gary Um, he was he was ultimately solely convicted of manslaughter and he walked out of court. It's a greatly reduced charge in contrast to a screen murder. And why is that? It's something change of the court? They said, no, No, there's a saying that I have that derives out of that story.

And that's is this what happens outside the courthouse is more important than what happens inside the courthouse. It's the system is set up in a way so that everybody has plausible deniability. And you know, you you always make a mistake, you know, referring to the Nazis. But what the hell is that that is that? You know? I mean, but if you want to look at it, look at look at look at the incarceration and the deprivation of

liberty and the damage that's been done to communities. You're not that far off, all right, You're not that far off and making this thing, uh in the in this comparison. But the bottom line is they made it in a way. They made a mechanical so that there was always plausible deniability, moral, ethical, and legal. Say, hey, I'm just a small part of this thing. Although I wish I could do something else,

there's you know, my hands are tied. So you get into the justice system so called, and my hands are always tied. There's nothing I can do, and and so and so you just go through this and it's like

you're just going through the procedures of it. So, going back to the hum p noteing reference, the most important saying I know and that I try to that I do employ as a litigation strategy is what happens outside the courthouse is more important than what happens inside the courthouse, especially in criminal cases civil rights cases too, because when you shine a light on the courthouse, when you pressurize that courthouse, and everybody in there knows that there is

a light being shown on them, so they don't have that plausible deniability anymore. What happens in that courthouse is something that they will be personally and moral morally responsible for. And I'm talking about prosecutors, I'm talking about federal judges. I'm talking about stage is the whole deal. Things change

of a sudden. People become human beings again. They start looking at the bigger picture again, They start thinking about things other than just trying to get through the day without seeming to be damaging anyone and and trying to get through the day under the facade and the illusion that they're good people just by being there. You gotta strip them of that facade and show that if you do this, if you do X, that results and why and why is unethical and you're just part of a

machine that's been destroying people since day one. You have got to make them know that at all costs. And if you can do that, and you can, if you bust your ass and you get ferocious enough about it and pack those courthouses, things change. So that's one. That's one, and then too and you know, and this is kind of like a systemic solution, And so I really don't believe in systemic solutions that much. You gotta think outside the box, you know, you gotta say, we just gotta

bring what we can bring to this thing. Is the systemic solution? Is that? Okay? Look, for example, you've got why people vote for Bidenharrassed white people vote for you know, a lot of these, a lot of these uh you know democrats. Is that? Well, because one of the things they did, and I noticed this, they said they were going to decriminalize canvas and then there or or legalize it, and they said that they were going to do all sorts of things that we're going to end the systemic

injustice that's you know, as part of the drug war context. Well, they don't now that we're here, we're a good year in and it doesn't even look like anything's ever going to happen with regards to the legal or the end of federal prohibition. So they're supposed to be to the degree that we have any voice in this system as

close as we can get to it. So I guess you can pressurize them, but then at the end of the day that just may be saying, hey, write your senator later, you know, And I don't really believe in writing senator's letters. I believe that you've got to shine

a ferocious light on the system. What happens outside the courthouse is more important than what happens inside, and you've got to hold people responsible, and there are ways to do that that actually put some human life into an otherwise cold and dead I think it's a combination of all the things that you said, while we don't um,

while we are all very much so um unencouraged. I don't even know if that's the right word, by what is happening with this administration and with administrations of the past. Those people who are sitting at home who say, all I know I can do is write a letter. You know, I'm working two jobs today, I'm unable to show up at the courthouse, but I'm going to write a letter and maybe donate five dollars for the sandwiches for people

who are outside the courthouse. Then you have people who say, you know, well, you know, I'm I'm going to make sure that in every election I've work for candidates that I try to get people voted in or out, because oftentimes people think of voting as only one side, bringing people into the system, which ultimately will happen, but it can also mean fine ring folks who are not doing a good job. So you have those people who believe that going to the polls is one of the ways

that we will um somehow accomplished freedom. And then the last piece is there people like us that believe in putting boots on the ground, and they're gonna be folks who disagree or you know, well, protesting doesn't mean anything, Voting doesn't mean anything. We have so many what doesn't mean anything when we don't necessarily understand that all things

work together for the greater good. And so I hope that one of the things we take from this conversation is that in this area, even if you don't smoke marijuana or don't smoke weed, even if you don't have a family member, a loved one who is locked up right now because of marijuana, I think we all need to understand the equity conversation and how being able to access the cannabis industry could mean generational well for our communities.

And so it's something that we should all be concerned about. I mean, that's my my take on it. I don't know if anybody else wants to respond to that, Yeah, pretty much the same man. I just want to I just want to thank you for your your outlook and work that you're doing. We need people who understand the law and understand both sides to be able to articulate

it the way that you actually articulate. I try to say it all the time, but I don't have the vernacular, you know, and I don't know all the words in the legal terms to put it this way. I just call it bullshit, you know what I'm saying. I'm just saying basically, I'll just be like, it's a bunch of bullshit that we're dealing with. But the way that you broke it down so eloquently is definitely needed. And I look forward to doing like political work, UM organization until freedom.

We want to work on these things. You want to give these opportunities and for the people who have been wronged in these areas and figure out how do we connect our work to the legal work that you do. So I just want to say thank you for that

before you go. Before you go, Attorney Williams, tell us what it doesn't mean to fight to a lawsuit to make the Colorado River a person we need to know that, all right, So look another saying, So you got you got one saying, maybe take two sayings out of this deal is one, what happens outside the court has more important what happens inside the court us. And then secondly, it's all the same fight. Okay, it's something I see and what that fight is, it's it's a fight against

power differentials. Right, So one generational wealth versus a little bit of income, um, the usual suspects versus people who have been marginalized and having to deal with bullshit since

day one. Um, Now when we get to something, so any time that you have massive power differentials where one side has all the power and the other side doesn't have power, doesn't have rights really at the end of the day, doesn't have rights, then you are going to have negative outcomes all the our Not much power equals

bad outcomes a k A injustice. And so if you look at the if you look at the environmental situation, right, corporations have all the power of the world, but you know, literally and figuratively and literally more than figuratively, and so they have all the power. And then you look at what is it the corporations do now corporations exploit. Now they have some good benefits, and I'm not an anti corporate, but a lot of them exploit. They take advantage of

human beings. But what they really do exploit at the end of the day, is this world, this planet, which is supposed which is supposed to be all of ours living in a way in which we respect Earth and hopefully in some kind of sustainable way that that integrates ourselves with. And when we do that, I tend to think that we end up being a more just society

and better people. So you have a situation like this, right, so you have let's say you have a corporation in Arizona that wants to it has all it has ten billion dollars, and it wants to open up a golf course in the desert. We know, we know, you can just look at me. You can just we can just look at it and say that's bullshit. That doesn't need to happen. Colorado rivers dying. There's not enough of all all the of all the things and all the places

where money should be going. Right now, the last damn thing we need is another golf course in the desert. But if they have the money, then they can buy the property rights, obtain the legal interests necessary to do whatever the hell they want to do. And that's because something as vital as the Colorado River or something or as vital as nature itself. In contrast, two corporations has

no rights whatsoever, and so that person her term. Look, the legal system is basically the United States legal system is essentially based on twelve thirteen century property rights, something called the Magna Carta. And so we're just based in property rights conceptions, and that's really and that that's that's another conversation. But if you can get the property, the

you can do what you want to do. And so it's a way of saying and so to return to that is that our conception of things are our legal conception of the earth on which we depend for our existence is simply one that is property that if you can buy it, you can do whatever you want to do it. So that so we're stuck with words like personhood because if you're a person, allegedly you have some rights. Okay,

So if you're a person, you have some rights. So and saying that the Colorado River should be deemed a legal person is really just a way of saying the color you should not be able to do to the Colorado River, or the oceans or lakes, or the earth, this planet, whatever the hell you want to do, because you have all the wealth and you can, and so you are, they're being able to exploit it and use it in any way you want, even though for those

for the greater picture, it's causing and continuing on further injustice and exploitation. So it would say, it would say that if you are doing something as in name and useless and contrary to the interests of justice in the society, as opening up a golf course in the desert, then we should be able to stand up for the Colorado

River and say, the Colorado have some rights too. It's already greatly diminished so that you cannot simply drain and kill this natural entity upon which we all depend any further, because this too has a degree of rights which we simply call personhood. Because our law right now doesn't have the actual language for how to treat nature and really

people with respect. That's I'm gonna refer to the Colorado River as my homeboyfro Now, Yeah, I love, I love that the Colorado River is my home my homeboy got rights to man. Wow. Uh, you are like super duper duper duper intellectual and intellig It's great. It makes me feel like I need to go get twenty five books right now and like read everything because what you know and the breadth of the the wealth of knowledge that

you have is so important for our community. And I can only imagine that your clients are grateful to have you as an attorney because you're gonna go to court and speak up and fight the system for them, where we see so many attorneys that don't do that, either because they're intimidated and or they just don't care and therefore they don't go do the real work and put themselves on the line. And I can imagine there are a lot of people in the course that don't like

to see attorney Jason Williams coming. Yeah, yeah, because you're gonna speak up. But I want to thank you again, As my son has said, we appreciate you and put us to work. Let us know about things that's happening where you feel like we can be of assistance, whether it be online and or in person. We do believe

in putting boots on the ground. We believe that what happens outside the court makes what's inside the court shake and so we want to continue to do that work in collaboration with you and on behalf of your clients and others that you work with. So thank you, all right, I appreciate your time. Thank you. That's how we own it. That's how we own it. You're a big shout out to Jason Williams Man. He is a wealth of knowledgement.

Just listening to him and just understanding his perspective, it's just like I said, it broke down a lot of stuff that I'd be thinking and I'd just be saying it's bullshit, but he broke it down into legal terms and different things. Just one of the main things that he said was what the most important things is what happened outside the court. And that's been been what we've been doing, you know, that's the work that we do. It until freedom is the stuff that's outside of the court.

And people say, oh, you don't think marching, you protesting? What is that do? It gives people like Jason the energy right when he walks into a courtroom and we've and we've been advocating for something and we've got the world wrapped up on a specific particular subject or against a different case, like when you look at among our Breary's case, the the noise that the world makes, right, the anger and the frustration that the world makes has

an impact. It has an impact on everything when people start realizing that the the status quo is not okay with you just killing black people or doing injustice against other people that are marginalized and poor people. When you started, they start to hear those voices and he's like, he said, this is wrong, and you're doing something that's morally wrong. You know, people started feeling that pressure to do the right thing. So you know that makes sense. Absolutely, ivred

with you a thousand percent about that. And you know, I think about and I think you always talk about how much people don't know about what goes into the strategy around these things. Right, So you have people who will say that marching to your point doesn't mean anything, it's not doing anything. Well, if that's the case, if you believe that I'm marching and rallying means nothing, then tell me why. Um the Mick Michael's, which are the two the father and son um responsible for a mod

Avery's killing. So they were two out of the three. One of their attorneys. He kept trying to get the case thrown out because of the rallies that were happening outside the court, the fact that Reverend Sharkton had been inside the court, Reverend Jackson and other leaders right, and the Black Panthers were outside the court. Was it the Black Panthers? Let me just make sure it was you sure the Black Panther Okay? And the New Black Panther

Party was outside the court. One day. They even had a casket out there um that had the names of people who have been killed by police officers and white supremacists over many, many years. That was really upsetting to the defense because they knew that it meant something about what was happening in the court. To Jason's point, it calls on, or at least tugs on the moral conscious

of the prosecutor. Right now, the prosecutor knows you've got to walk back out here in front of these people or past this community and and answer for what you did or did not do. Especially election season, Oh, people are upset. Whenever there's no noise, whenever people are quiet about the issues, you're going to have folks try to get away with more injustice, and so I would is offered that, you know, listening to what he said it it really made me feel like we're doing the right thing.

Not because it is going to get us a guilty verdict every time, not because it is going to be the end all, be all and it's gonna bring us the ultimate justice and freedom. And you're damn right. There are other people who are gonna do things differently. As I was saying from you know earlier in the show, there are people who will choose the way that they want to do their part. Everybody is not gonna do

it the same way. And I think, you know, for for those of us who spend so much time criticizing, generally, you find out that they do nothing, that they are either talking heads that don't hit the ground, that they have not built anything, and or that they they literally literally are paid provocateurs who are sent to try to disrupt what other people are doing. That may not be the final answer, but it certainly is a part of your legacy in terms of you fighting and you being

out there in the struggle. Yeah, everybody has something to do, I mean, something to say about what somebody else is doing. When they ain't doing nothing. So you know, it's a lot going on. We have so many, so many different entry points in this movement. You know, every day I'm enlightened and I find out different things that other people

are doing and try to collaborate. So a couple of weeks ago we went to our bads or when we met with different you know, um professionals who have different entry points into the movement and and work that they're doing that's either silent or loud that we didn't even know about, and we were able to connect and and and it's like, stop criticizing what somebody else is doing or not doing it. Just find a way to do what you think is missing because there's so many different

needs inside this movement. Black people have so many different needs that were sure that you can find a way to help instead of trying to tear down with somebody else's doing. So, you know, once again, shout out to Jason Man for that all all of the knowledge he gave us. And then and there are some people who will because even I struggle with some of what he said, right, like not struggling because I don't think it's right, but

struggling to understand it right. He is highly intellectual, and so you can you can lose some of the things that he's saying just because because of the fact that we don't practice law and we may not understand it. But I when we really dig deeply into the sentence and disparities that he spoke to how his clients for weed, most of them weren't moving trucks and trucks of it. He's like he said, and I get his point when he said, you know, if you did that, and good

for you. It doesn't mean that he believes that it's right. What he's saying is that there are other people who are moving ships of marijuana and or cocaine or other drugs, and their families are literally running American society. Okay, and not just American, A bunch of other countries are ruled in many ways by the blood of drug money and guns and whatever other you know, Uh, illegal activities happened in our society, and by the way, is only illegal

for certain people. Because if you have oxycott and if you sell prescription drugs, you can move mountains and and be living and go into the White House for events. You can be you know, running other businesses owning major corporations and whatnot. But us, you know, Johnny who is

selling some weed on the corner. He's penalized and actually pays for the crimes of big drug mob like bosses and old You know, I get I understand what he was saying, and I just think we have to have more conversations that while we may not understand all the details, we have to listen to the the lawyers, the legal side, the activists, the parents, the victims, Like it's gonna take all of us. The sure is man, you just said,

you said something that I said all the time. Man, we will kill somebody in calling the worst drug deal in the world because they're selling the same controlled substances that these pharmaceuticals and these pharmacies are selling for years and and and and being called the best businessmen in the world and billionaires, you know, and like you said, Johnny is gonna do twenty and thirty years for selling the same exact things somewhere. So that's that brings me

to what I don't get it. There's this this stigma about criminality, right and I'm being formally incarcerated, you know, I deal with this all the time that people want to hold you to being quote unquote criminals. Now, first of all, I was forcedly incarcerated and accused of crimes I didn't commit, and I served time for those crimes, you know. But second of all, it was over twenty years of m right, you understand I'm saying it was a crime. I was nineteen years or over twenty years ago.

I served seven years for a crime that I didn't commit. And people will constantly I see this in my d MS all the time. Oh you're a fake, you was a criminal, and this and that, and it's like, at what point do a crime that you commit? At what point does it say you said, Okay, this individual served the time, whether they did it or not. The last twenty years of this man's life has been about productivity.

The twenty years prior to that was about productivity. Like, at what point do do you start to realize that the the worst mistake a person might have made in their lives? Because there are all people who are formally in coorse rated who have done their crimes and they've come home and made amends, and they've done everything possible

to make amends and become productive members of society. And I just don't get why there is a mind state amongst people that because a person commits one crime, served their time moves on, that they're just these bad evil people who can never be you know, reconstructed, who who can never be rehabilitated, and who can never do anything positive without without escaping that one crime if they commit and it's it's just it's really a mess up situation. I'm on an organization. I'm on a board of an

organization called Time Done. Shout out to my boy Ja Jordan and what's We're fighting to get the rights back performally in coorse rated people right like, because we deal with so many stigmas, Like it's still jobs I can't get I still can't get th h a pre check. I still you know, it's these things won't they won't allow me to have any of these things. I travel and the Diamond member, all of these things and I can't get to you they pre checked because I got

a felony on my record. And there are so many other things. There's certain jobs in places that I'm I won't be able to go to. I can't go to Canada because I got a felon anymore don't matter how many shows or whatever it is. I will never be able to go to these certain places because I got a fulding. And and it's like we're working on getting these records expunged after you you serve a certain amount of time free and you show to be a productive member.

You haven't gotten into any crimes, you haven't done anything that your record be completely expunged, and there's no even mentioned of the crime that you did. And I think that's something that really needs to happen because there's so many beautiful, educated professional people that are just held by these consequences of crimes they committed twenty in fifteen and some even thirty years ago, and it's just it's just

not right. Well, we should definitely, in thattly have Jay Jordan to come on and talk about the time on campaign, because you know, when I found out that, I think you were telling me you can't walk dogs, you can't be a dog walker. Uh, if you have a felony, you can't get a barber's license to open a shop in most states. And of course the problem with our society is that every state gets to operate in a different way. And then I'm contradicting myself because I'm saying

that's a problem in our society. But then there are a states that if the rule of law was based upon some of our governors, some of the governors in this country, we would be it up Ships Creek because when you think about a place like Texas where they're taking away a women's right to choose with her body, if that was the norm across the country, then that

would also be a problem. So we just have such ship because you could be in one state that will allow you, as a person who was formally incarcerated with a felony on your record, you can be in that state and get to a barber's license, But then you go over here to this state and you can't. It's it's like people are pushed their backs are slammed up against the wall, and we have to figure out, as

you said, how to sort of right side it. So I think we've got to have j Jordan's on um and you know, Mice, I think, yes, it is true that this system has done so much to try to suck the energy out of people like you and Jay and others. But I'm just so this is my praise and worship moment. How God is so good because to see where you and Jay started right, to know where you were when I first met you, and to see how hard you work every day regardless of all those

things that are trying to stop you. You can't you couldn't do several os in Canada. You couldn't go to something big um in Australia. I think it was um. Like you said, every time we get to the airport, some of us are. And it's not just you. It's

not just you. You and Linda's are. Soul Away never been in trouble for anything in her life, can't get pre checked because she is a Muslim woman whose family is from Palestine, even though she's an American citizen, and she is on a list of restrictions in America where she cannot get the same rights that I have. And and and yet y'all still pushed past all of that, and you keep going. And so I just want to

say that it is incredible to watch. And I'm assuming you will say you are the exception and not the rule, right, but it is incredible to watch how despite all that this system is doing to try to hold you back, to try to stop you from achieving your greatness. You continue to plow through and push your way forward. And look at all that you have accomplished just in the last almost decade that I've known you, and you've been working at UH, you know, through so many challenges even

since you were a young child. So thank you for the acknowledgement. You know what it means a lot. Like you said, I'm an exception, not the rule, and I and I and I and I don't want I don't want the success of other people that's in my same situations or lack thereof, with what's considered success of them, to be judged by me, because you know I have I call it it's a combination of Luck's a combination

to drive, it's a combination of access. It's all of those things play apart in what it is my success is a lot of people that come from the same situations don't have that same access, Right they come home with the drive and they have the skill, and they don't have the access and they don't have the luck, and the two of the things out of whack. You know, I don't believe in luck, some level of luck because because its blessings, they haven't they haven't run into their

blessing as of yet, you know what I'm saying. So there's there's so many different situations. The average individual doesn't know that most people that are in successful situations was one second away from being incarcerated, especially when you when you come from our communities. The most successful people would tell you there was a time that they was in

the car with something they shouldn't have been in. There was there was with a friend doing something they should have done, or they participated son, and by the grace of God, you know, they didn't get caught and they were able to make a decision and change their lives, and they go on on to be successful and you know, productive members of society without felonies. You know, that's a

lot of people's stories. So just understand. I just want people to know that you, or somebody you love or somebody you respect, was probably seconds away from being on

the opposite side of that fence. You know. So when you pass judgment and you think that these people are no good or and you want to call them criminals and think they just they deserve not to have anything, or not the right to be able to evolve and grow, just understand that, you know, you you're coming from a point of privilege a lot of times in the point of perspective that you're not. You're not giving the other opposite spectrum the opportunity to even understand where they come from. God.

And with that said, we come to the end of another dope show. Shout out to Jason Williams for his knowledge, Jason Attorney, Jason Williams for his knowledge. You know that broke so many things down that we didn't even know. Listen, Colorado River is my homeboy, and now that's the person they just do rivers. You know what I'm saying, So shout out a person. You know what I'm saying, so we want to shout him out. Shout out to all

our fans. Thank you all for continuing to tune in, you know, listening to us debate, you know, argue, go back and forth. You know, give have different point of views and we appreciate y'all. If you have any ideas for topics or people you want us to interview, please make sure you hit us up on Instagram. Street Politician Pod d m u s let us know your information.

If you have any products small business, if you are small business and business being the key word, because you can be small, but you have to be a business. You gotta be a business for us to promote you. Let us know and let us know your products so we can promote you on there once again with the number one podcast, number one in the world, and we're growing, We're moving fast. Meet up for coming up here dropping her jewels. You know she always got the good background

makeup on fleek head done. You know what I'm saying. Look, I can say what you want. We'll be fresh man, I skin be clear and all that. I think. We ain't out here man until freedom. Let me shamers plug. Integrity over income is always integrity over income mat But once again, we love y'all. We're not gonna always be right to me, It's not gonna always be wrong, but we will both always and I mean always be a thing.

Listen to Street Politicians on the Black Effect Network on I Heart Radio and catch us every single Wednesday for the video version of Street Politicians or I Women Dot Team