¶ Minimalism and Simplifying Your Life
I recommend that you kind of shop your own wardrobe , use the things that you already have , because what you think you want and need in your closet is going to change by the end of the three months and certainly by the end of two rounds at the end of six months .
Courtney's work revolves around the idea that less is more and that by simplifying our lives we can discover what truly matters . In this episode , courtney shares her personal journey of decluttering and embracing minimalism , leading to more time , less stress and greater joy .
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Today , again , that's AtomicTinyHomescom slash THLP . Thank you so much to Atomic Homes for sponsoring our show . That website , again , is AtomicTinyHomescom slash THLP . ["tiny Homes by Atomic Homes"] . All right , i am here with Courtney Carver .
Courtney Carver is the author of Soulful Simplicity and Project 333 , the Minimalist Fashion Challenge that proves less really is so much more . Be More With Less is about simplifying your life and really living . Living With Less creates time and space to discover what really matters .
Through decluttering and focusing on the best things instead of all the things , you can create a life with more savings and less debt , more health and less stress , more space and less stuff , and more joy with less obligation . Courtney Carver , welcome to the show , hello thanks for having me today . Yeah , you're welcome . It's been a while since I've seen you .
I think we were at the same Tiny House conference in Texas a few years ago .
Ooh , that would have been a long time ago , right ? I don't know time anymore .
Yeah , i know , forget time . Well , i guess I wanna start . You know , like a lot of my listeners well , i think all my listeners are interested in Tiny House living or they're living tiny in one way or another . And for a lot of people I know that kind of getting rid of stuff and trying to live more simply .
While it is a goal and a result of Tiny House living , people really struggle getting there , even when they know they wanna live tiny , that it can be really difficult . I've experienced this in my own life too , like I live pretty small and it's a constant battle of trying to live more simply .
So I was just curious to hear maybe you could tell us your story of how you simplified and what that was like for you back when you did it .
Sure well , when I started simplifying gosh back in like 2006 , i wasn't really interested in simplifying or simplicity and I had never really heard of the term minimalism in terms of a lifestyle and I certainly didn't know anything about Tiny House living , so none of that was really on my radar or interesting to me at all .
But I was interested in making some headway in terms of health and wellness and creating less stress in my life .
I was diagnosed with MS in July 2006 and building up to that it was just like what I kind of thought as the normal American lifestyle in debt , too much stuff , working too hard , not enough money at the end of the month oftentimes and just this constant grind of do more , do more , do more .
But I realized after this diagnosis and feeling sick for a while that I didn't know why I was doing more . I didn't know what the more was for anymore and I wanted less .
I didn't know what I wanted less of exactly , except for stress , yeah , and when I started to create less stress in my life , it was by removing the most stressful things , so removing debt , removing clutter , eventually removing a job that I had a boss who was just always reminding me that we all do better when we're under stress and pressure , and he loved to
put that to the test and he was wrong . That's not how it worked for me at all . Yeah . But in any case , i noticed that throughout all of that time , when I was removing things , i was living more simply and creating a simpler life . And that's when all the dots connected , the stars aligned and I've got really interested in simplifying .
Nice , and so is that , when you started your website , be More With Last to kind of start writing about these things .
Probably it was in 2010 that I started BeMoreWithLesscom and started doing my fashion challenge . That was really attractive to a lot of people who wanted to sample simplicity without having to go all in , And it was in that period of time where I had spent a few years kind of getting used to my changing lifestyle .
I definitely had a long way to go , but I was ready to start sharing and connecting .
Yeah , yeah . And the Project 333 , the fashion challenge is . It's really fun And I mean it's been around for a while now and I feel like it really has staying power . I remember reading it a while back and seeing the revelation that like you can wear the same sweater , the same outfit to work over and over again and like people don't notice .
Yeah , it's pretty funny because in the early days , like 2010 , when I started talking about it , there was a lot of feedback about how this was a fad and it was just this like fun little thing that was gonna go away . And here we are , 13 years later , and thank you . It's still the number one reason people find me online . Yeah .
And it's still something I do all the time . I dress with 33 items or less every three months , just because it makes my life so much simpler And I don't have to think about things that I don't care about , like should I wear this black shirt or this black shirt ? I don't care .
So I think that one really cool thing about Project 333 , and also about just simplicity in general , is that you don't have to live tiny to do it . Living tiny or living small certainly can force you to do it , but this is something that somebody with a 5,000 square foot house could try , and I think that my listeners might be really interested .
Could you give us kind of an overview of like what's Project 333 ? Like how would somebody do it ?
Sure . So basically , what you're doing is just limiting your simplicity and living with less to your closet as an experiment , as a way to sample simplicity , and so what I recommend and for some people this might not be a fit maybe you don't have a lot of clothes in your closet , but if you're anything like I was , you shop a lot for clothes .
you have a lot of clothes in your closet and probably in other spaces in your home . And so this is an invitation to dress with 33 items for less for three months , including clothing , jewelry , accessories and shoes . You don't count things like underwear , sleepwear , workout gear .
So if you are a skier or a hiker , you wouldn't count those clothes that you use exclusively for those things . There may be some crossover . I have clothes that I wear hiking that I also have in my 33 item wardrobe .
So and then for those three months you kind of put a shopping ban in place So you're not buying new things , you're not paying attention to sales or clothing related things , and you just see how that goes . And with everything else that's not in that 33 item wardrobe , you just hide it , just get it out of sight .
Don't worry about figuring out what to donate , what to sell , because a lot of times I think that gets us hung up on moving forward ?
Yeah , absolutely So . During this three month time , if you're like a first time or doing this , you're not actually getting rid of everything but the 33 , you're kind of putting them aside . You're putting them in storage , like what's happening with them .
I would just hide it . So whatever that looks like for you , i mean for me I was just putting the extra stuff in a box , or boxes , as the case was , and putting it in the garage And then every three months I would kind of go back and rotate items in and out seasonally and then start feeling more comfortable letting things go .
Because what happens when you separate yourself from your stuff ? that emotional attachment you have fades pretty quickly , like you think you love everything in your closet or you think everything is worth holding on to until you don't see it anymore and you don't even remember it And you realize , oh , maybe it's not that important .
Right , right , yeah , i experience that every year .
I live in a space that's small enough that , and in Vermont , where winter clothing needs are quite large and puffy , and so we put away our winter clothes when it comes to be about this time of year And I love kind of taking them back out of the boxes because it feels like I went shopping and I'm like , oh yeah , that sweater I didn't even remember owning
it , but that one's great , i like it . It's kind of fun to get to almost shop through your own clothes once again , right , and then I like to take that time when I'm switching over to kind of think about what never went on my body during the last season . Why put it up in the closet ? Let's just sell it or donate it or all those different things .
So Project 333 , i guess when I saw it it was like an online challenge . Is that how it started ?
It did . It started as a bit of a challenge . For sure It was more of a personal challenge . I really did think it was going to be a three-month thing that I wrote about on the blog and then that would be the end of it , and it just really . It took off for a lot of reasons .
One , because it was really working in my life and making such a big difference And the things I was noticing weren't things I was expecting .
For instance , i worked full-time when I started this and I thought for sure someone in my office would say something about the fact that I was wearing the same things over and over again and no one ever noticed And I thought , oh , everyone's not thinking about me all the time . Like that's so weird .
Imagine now that I know that perhaps I don't have to worry about what other people think about other decisions I'm making in my life .
And so it's now . You've published it as a book right , I did .
Yes , it's so . It was my second book that came out on March 3rd 2020 . Nice , It's just word of advice don't publish a book the day before the pandemic starts . Oh no . In any case , yes , it came out in March 2020 , and it's kind of the Project 333 Everything You've Ever Wanted to Know , or Every Objection You've Ever Had to It .
I speak to that within the book .
How much would you say ? Because you said before that you kind of still do it . Every three months you go through . How much flux are you experiencing on an every three month basis ? Is it one or two things that you're getting rid of and changing , or is it big changes every three months ?
That's such a good question . So in the beginning it was because I really didn't know what I was doing and I had so many items I was rotating in and out quite a bit like more than 50% of the wardrobe , and now it's much less .
It depends for me on a few different things , but just this past six months I experimented with , instead of doing it for three months , starting in October , i was going to do it for five months and see what that felt like , and then I just naturally extended it to six months , and now I'm in the seventh month . I haven't changed anything yet .
I live in Salt Lake City , so we do have a four season state , but we've had an exceptionally long winter , like wild amounts of snow up until last week actually , and now I'm starting right now to think we're having a couple of 70 degree days . So I'm thinking about what my spring summer wardrobe might look like .
So I'm probably leaning towards only switching out items a couple times a year .
Okay , interesting . Could you describe Project 333 as a capsule wardrobe , or is that a different thing ?
Yeah , no , i think that's exactly what it is . It's just a different way to approach it . And again , i recommend that you shop your own wardrobe , use the things that you already have , because what you think you want and need in your closet is going to change by the end of the three months and certainly by the end of two rounds at the end of six months .
Yeah . You just really start to understand , and it's almost just like admitting that you wear the same things over and over , because most people , even though they have a closet full of clothes , they're still wearing their favorite things , only a handful of things .
But then they feel bad about not wearing the other things because they don't fit or they spent too much money on them , or someone gave them clothes that they don't wear , and so all of those other clothes that you don't wear just kind of taunt you every morning and you don't know this is happening until you remove them and you just feel so much more at peace
.
¶ Simplifying Life and Overcoming Societal Pressure
Yeah , yeah , i've experienced that , especially when traveling , you know , because you you've created an ultra like minimalist version of your wardrobe and just the ease of getting dressed and just the simplicity of it is striking more for me when I get home and I'm like faced with all the other clothes that I didn't bring and like , oh oh yeah , i have the there ,
they all are .
Right , you were never on this great trip thinking oh , i wish I brought more stuff , yeah .
Right , right . It's usually more just like . I wish I brought this thing instead of that thing like choose well . So your other book , soulful simplicity I'm less familiar with it Is that more applying minimalism and simplicity out kind of beyond the wardrobe and into other aspects of life ?
Yes , so soulful simplicity was my first book and there was a chapter about Project 333 in the book which led to the Project 333 book . but soulful simplicity is more about my story and how I started out simplifying and things that . I've learned along the way .
Got it , got it , okay . And then is there , are you working on a third book ?
I am working on a third book . I just started actually last month writing it and it's not due out until 2025 . So maybe you'll invite me back when it comes out .
Sure , okay , yeah , hopefully , if I'm still doing the podcast in 2025 , then then you're you're always welcome .
It sounds like a long time away , but it's not that far Like if you think about it just a couple of years ago was 2021 , that feels like yesterday .
Yeah , it sure does . It sure does . So you've also created an online community , and I apologize because I didn't , i didn't , i don't have the name of it right in front of me on my notes . Tell us about the community that you've created .
Sure . So in 2020 , when , once my book tour was cut very short and I came home , I was hearing from a lot of people , kind of in the Be More With Less community , that they wanted more support , more connection and a place to gather , since we weren't gathering in real life anymore . Yeah .
And I created a membership program called the Simplicity Space and it's a combination of interviews with simplicity authors and advocates , coaching calls with members and other simplicity resources , plus live calls and a community , a place in mighty networks where people can actually chat and connect and meet in real life . now they're doing that , which is fantastic .
So , yes , that was born out of the pandemic and is going strong today , so I really enjoy that and the kind of people it attracts .
That's really fun And it probably creates a place where people can can really support one another and kind of take some of the maybe some of the stress off of you and feeling like that you kind of need to be there for everyone in your community .
Well , they certainly learn more from each other . I'm sure they have .
You know they can , because they're experiencing different things than I experienced , so I can't really speak to every situation And a lot of times I'm sure you've experienced this and people in your community where you really want to make a change in your life , but the people around you , as much as they love you and support you , don't really get it and aren't
on board or ready to go and ready to declutter or try Project 333 or research tiny homes , whatever it is , and so to find people who have either done it or are doing it and get it , it makes a big difference in terms of the success of your journey .
Yeah , absolutely , Because you know , sometimes the people around you aren't thinking the same way or they don't have the goal of being living more simply or minimalism or any of that kind of stuff .
Yeah , it'd be weird if we all thought the same way all the people around us , Like we kind of have to go find our people .
Yeah , yeah , absolutely Have you . you know , have you downsized your own like living space as a result of your simplicity journey ?
Yeah , our living spaces have changed a handful of times since we started , and what's happened is we started simplifying in a 2000 square foot home with a big yard , a garage , an attic and a big storage shed in the backyard .
Those are pretty common where I am , and so that was already in the yard when we bought it and we were happy to fill it with all of our craft . And then that's where it all started .
And so when we started decluttering , it got to a place where we were decluttering entire rooms and they were just empty , and so from there we downsized to an apartment that was 750 square feet , and at that time , it was 2013 . It was myself , my husband , my teenage daughter , a dog and two cats , and it was in the city , which we had never .
We had never lived before . You know , everything was really different and I loved it . It was such a blast , i thought to number one live in an apartment . Number two rent because we had been owning . So it was just so nice not to own anything for a little while .
We were debt free for the first time in our adult lives and it just felt really nice not to have that obligation of fixing the roof or replacing the dishwasher or all the things that happen when you own a house .
And then , in 2020 , through a few different things that happened , including the pandemic , a big earthquake out here and some other things we decided that we wanted to be in a house again and have a little more space to ourselves and not be directly in the city , and so we bought a house at the end of 2020 .
That was about , i would say , a little more than half the size of our first house . So we had a really clear understanding of what we were looking for , what was important to us , how we wanted to finance it And , since we weren't going into it broke , it made a big difference in how we felt about home ownership .
So , as I talk to people about this because I know there is some controversy over what's the best decision renting or owning I would say just don't make the money part , the only part , because that's not the only way we're compensated .
It just changes based on your lifestyle and the stage of your life and what you're interested in , and it can't all be based on the market . We probably sold our house at the worst possible time and then we bought a house . That was a really challenging time to buy a house in 2020 .
Yeah , Yeah , but it's like you get so much more back from it , more than just the money .
Exactly , it can't be the deciding factor . And I understand that money is important . I'm just saying it can't be the only factor , for sure .
Yeah , i feel like there's so much societal pressure , both in the house buying process but in everything scrolling Instagram , listening to a podcast , you just hear so much pressure to accumulate more possessions . I'm curious , like how can people overcome that ? Or maybe they can't overcome it , but how do you fight against that in your own personal life ?
It really all comes down to trusting yourself and what you want for your life And really feeding and fueling the person you are not the person you think everyone else wants you to be , and I know that's not the easiest thing to do , especially the trusting ourselves part because , I think that we forget that we can consult our inner voice , like who we really are
. First , because all of the other voices are so loud , Like we've got so many other voices in our ear and their voices that are happening right now on social media , their voices from our past , with people saying things about us or making judgments about us or having goals and expectations for us .
All that gets really noisy and then we pile on the busyness and the striving and the pursuit of passion and all of the other things . When does it get to be quiet so that we can listen to ourselves ? Because we can't trust ourselves if we can't hear ourselves .
So I think it's really about carving out a little bit of time , a little bit of quiet every single day where you can come back to yourself and just check in , Because that is when all of that other stuff feels less friction and more like just outside noise that you can shut out anytime you want .
Interesting Now . you shared in the beginning that the simplicity journey for you was in part prompted by health and physical health . Did you find that , or do you find that living more simply has had an impact on your health ?
Of course I mean . so . I was diagnosed with MS in 2006 . And the lifestyle changes that I've made , with the work I do with a conventional medical team and neurologist and a lot of support in the medical community , I haven't had a relapse since late 2007 . And I barely any symptoms , if any at all . Wow .
So I would say for sure it's helping And I have to believe it's fueling other things too , not just MS , And I know that just from the way that I feel and how I sleep and how I move through the world . it for sure has impacted my mental and physical health in a positive way .
Nice . So this is kind of a question like for me .
Well , they're all questions coming from me , but I'm like this one's kind of selfish , which is like running an online business as you do And as I do , can be very stressful and not that simple , because it's like you're this one person and you're kind of responsible for email marketing and hosting your community and doing all this other stuff , and so I'm curious
how have you applied your kind of values of simplicity and minimalism to your online business ?
Well , i had to ask the same questions that I ask of myself in my day to day life , and some of those questions are like well , what do you want more of ? Do you want more time , or do you want more money , or do you want ? and what do you want less of And how do you want to feel ?
All of those questions I have to always be asking and it's why I've hired people to help me . So certainly not in the beginning and not for the first many years , but for the last , i would say five to seven years I've had a team of people who helped . So I have somebody that helps me with the community , someone who helps me with some social media stuff
¶ Simplicity, Social Media, and Recommended Resources
. I use schedulers for Facebook . I mean , social media has changed so much since , so much . When we were starting out , it was you were really social on social media , and that's not how it is anymore . I don't use it for social reasons in my own life And so I don't really .
It's more for me , just like sharing content , and that for me makes it okay to schedule and post and I respond as I can , but I don't feel like that's my . My first job is responding to everything And so and it's about , it's still about letting go Like there's always more to do , so it's still that more , more , more is there .
And I always have to just ask myself like , do I ? because I love what I do , so certainly I could do it more , but why , yeah ? To what end am I going to do more of it ? So for me , it's about working less , having a good team of people to work with , and and just constantly reevaluating and being intentional about why I'm doing what I'm doing .
Got it . That's a great answer . Oh thanks , yeah , you're welcome . Yeah , i wonder , how long has the ? have you done the online community ? Oh , you said it since the beginning 2020 . Yeah , so was that a big decision for you ? Because you know , doing an online community , even with help , is it's a big undertaking , it's a lot .
Yes , it is , and we're all we're still thinking about like we've made some shifts . We make some shifts every year and we're thinking about another one now to make it more accessible , meaning more affordable , and what that looks like and how to streamline things .
But prior to that , i was often doing new online courses and things like that , which took time to build , and I don't do those right now .
In fact , before the simplicity space started , i canceled like a lot of things that I offered and wasn't sure that I was going to do any of it anymore and then enter the pandemic and we're home all the time and it only made sense to do that . So yeah it's .
Things are always changing and I want to be open to that and and not get too stuck in my ways or like think this is always going to work the same way , because it just doesn't happen like that .
Of course . Yeah , you kind of have to roll with with the reality , not whatever you think is going to happen . probably isn't .
Correct , I try not to make two make plans too far ahead .
That's . That is wise , really close to you . I don't think what else I want to ask . You've been so generous with your advice .
Oh well , i'm happy to share . I mean , it really is like I feel like I'm always still figuring things out , but I've gotten to a place where , like I know I'm not I don't care if I know everything .
In fact , i'd rather rely on support from people who know things better than I do than trying to figure it all out on my own , and that's how a lot of us have to start . We're like looking up , we're Googling how to's and looking on YouTube to figure things out , and it takes more time , for sure , but eventually I think that kind of settles down .
I did start a podcast in just in 2019 , the end of 2019 with my daughter Oh fun , yeah , it's really fun , and it's called Soul and Wit , and I was just thinking about all the things I don't know and podcasting is definitely one of them . That , like , i still think we've been doing it .
I think we have about 160 episodes and we still aren't really sure about what we're doing .
Nice , Nice . So it's like a mother daughter conversation about simplicity and minimalism .
No , it's about everything . So we talk about like , for instance , we just recorded an episode about Daisy Jones and the Six , which is the new Amazon series based on the book by Taylor Jenkins-Read . Sometimes we talk about simplicity and then other times we talk about a lots of other things and it's really fun .
Bailey , my daughter , is such a blast to listen to , and it all came from these like morning phone calls that we have , where we get our coffee and we're on the phone and we're just grabbing away and fracking up , and I always thought , like other people would enjoy this , we need to bring these morning phone calls to a podcast .
And it turns out that people do like it . Huh They like it ?
It seems they like it , not everybody , of course .
That's really fun .
I've yet to do anything that everybody likes , but that's fine , right .
Right , That's kind of . if you're trying to do something that everybody likes , you're not going to really do anything , you'd be tired . Yeah , you'd be tired . So people can find Soul and Wit , i'm guessing , like anywhere they listen to podcasts , including wherever they're listening to this podcast , that's right , nice .
So I'm curious what resources you would recommend for somebody who is listening to this and is like dreaming of a tiny house , kind of wanting to start minimalizing and downsizing . Do you recommend starting with Project 333 or do you have other resources that you kind of offer as like getting started guide ?
I mean , i have a gazillion blog articles that I'm sure could be helpful . But I think when you're starting out on a journey like this , instead of going for the how to read a couple of books that really help you feel a conviction for what you're doing , okay , so I think Soulful Simplicity would be a great start .
Okay , older book called Your Money or Your Life Wow , that is just will change the way you think about why you spend money , how you make money , what you're really spending . They have a formula in there .
I can't it's been so long since I've read it but I think it's a formula about like , let's say , you're going to buy a pair of shoes , instead of saying these shoes are $100 , you think about or you do the math to see what time , how long it took you to earn that money , and then you're like I'm paying for these shoes with two days of my time or three
hours of my time or whatever it is . So that's really compelling . There's a book by this is again is an older book , but these two books I recommend all the time . It's an older book by Poe Bronson called What Should I Do With My Life , and it could be really outdated by now .
So if it is , i'm sorry , but I think it is also really a lot about like , what's my purpose ? Why am I here ? What do I want for my life , and can I do something that's super unconventional to feel fulfilled in that way ?
Cool , cool . Yeah , i love that we're talking about like really old books . I just I looked them up while you were talking . Your money or your life is from 2008 , and What Should I Do With My Life was 2002 . So , yeah , time flies , sure does . Nice . Well , Courtney Carver , thank you so much for being a guest on the show today .
It was really fun to catch up and to chat .
It's my pleasure .
Thank you so much to Courtney Carver for being a guest on the show today . You can find the show notes , including a complete transcript , over at thetinyhousenet slash 265 . If you like what you heard on the show today , i would really appreciate you leaving a review in Apple podcasts or wherever you're listening .
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