I was super obsessed with getting out of debt, like that was like my main goal. And I was starving myself - not eating, not purchasing things. And I ended up losing between like 20 and 25 pounds and became malnourished during that time.
Welcome to the Tiny House Lifestyle Podcast, the show where you learn how to plan, build and live the tiny lifestyle. I'm your host, Ethan Waldman, and this is Episode 213 with Nicholas Natali. Living tiny is a great way to save money and pay off debt and my guest today did that in a radical way. $60,000 in student loan debt in just 11 months. You'll have to listen to the episode to find out exactly how he did it and why he does not recommend doing it the way that
he did it. I hope you stick around. I want to tell you about something that I think will be super helpful as you plan, design and build your tiny house. Tiny House Decisions is a guide that I wish I had when I was building my tiny house. It comes in three different packages to help you on your
unique Tiny House journey. And if you're struggling to just figure out the systems for your tiny house, you know, like how you're going to heat it, how you're going to plumb it, you know, what construction technique are you going to use like SIPs or stick framing or steel framing, Tiny House Decisions, we'll take you through all these processes systematically, and help you come up with a design that works
for you. Right now I'm offering 20% off any package of Tiny House Decisions for listeners of the show. You can head over to thetinyhouse.net/THD to learn more. And use the coupon code tiny at checkout for 20% off any package. Again, that's thetinyhouse.net/THD, and use the coupon code tiny for 20% off. All right, I am here with Nickolas Natali who has paid off $60,000 in student loan debt in 11 months by living in his 1986 Chevy Suburban and skyrocketed his net worth to over 200k by
the age of 24. He now teaches others how to build wealth with easy to implement investing strategies and without having to live as extreme as he did. Nickolas, welcome to the show.
Ethan, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here.
Yeah, thanks for being here. So let's just start I want I want the long version of that bio. I want the long version of of your, you know. How did you even get started on this? I would, I would call it radical debt elimination plan.
It definitely was radical. It started my senior year of college, I went into college, actually, with the idea that I was going to have some debt, and I wanted to get my debt down low. So I was like, "I'm going to graduate early. And that should be enough." And then senior year rolled around. And I finally looked at the numbers and it said 60k. And I was like this was not what I was expecting. Maybe I should have been, you know, keeping tabs on this.
Yeah.
And as, as I stewed on it more, I was just like, $50,000 is a lot of money. Like I don't want this to follow me for the rest of my life. And so I started to think about different ideas that I could, you know, maybe implement, and one of them that kept coming up was, 'Why not live in a vehicle?' And at first, I feel like it started out as a joke, like, my family's like, "Wouldn't that be funny if you just like live in a car?" And then I was like, "Yeah, maybe that would be kind of funny."
And then I was like telling professors and they were like, were suddenly getting very concerned for me, they're like, "Please do not do this. This is this is something you don't want to do." And then that made me want to do it even more. Because I was like, "Oh, I'm going to show him I can do it."
Why? Why do you think that they didn't want you to do it?
I think maybe just safety reasons.
Okay.
Or I think yeah, maybe they were just concerned about like me moving into my car and then never moving out of it. I'm not sure. Maybe they thought it was gonna be like so drastic, I would never talk to anybody again. I was like, off the grid for good. Could be any of those reasons. But what I think the real catalyst that turned it into like a real thing was I didn't have a car to live in. Like I had a Honda Accord, but it wasn't really like made for
camping out. But my my sibling's, dad kind of heard about some of the scuttlebug, scuttlebug. And it was like, "Hey, if you're for real about this, if you're legit going to move into a car, I'll give you my 1986 Chevy Suburban." I don't even think it ran because he was like, "I'll give it to you, and you can live in that if you're for real about it." And so I was like, "Oh man, well, this sounds too good to pass up." So I took him up on it.
Okay, so 98 Six Chevy Suburban. That's like, I've looked at some pictures of it on your Instagram. It's like a big white beast.
That's exactly what it is. Yeah, it's, it's long, but it's not tall. That was the unfortunate part.
Yeah, I mean, essentially, it looks, you might think of a Chevy Suburban now, that has a lot of headroom. But this almost looks more like a pickup truck, just that has a permanent cap on the back.
That's exactly, it's exactly what it is. And it has this little so like the driver's row, because they had rows and the passenger row, that was like probably like six or eight inches lower. And then where I ended up putting the bed in the back rows, it was like up another like eight inches, so it shortened it even even further. So I was always having a crunch over, be real Notre Dame like.
So it was not a great vehicle to start for a van or a house conversion, but it was free.
It was free, and you can't pass up on free. And when my brother and I,
Well you can, but...
That's alright, I couldn't at that point, I write all my numbers in the negative. And I was like, "Hey, this is in the positive." My brother and I started the conversion though soon thereafter. And it was makeshift, you know, it's it's not what you see people rocking the Sprinter vans. It's very plywood in a couple of nails.
Yeah, yeah. So talk about, you know, what, what did you do to convert it? And I think in the pictures, there's like, I can see maybe water tanks on the roof.
That's right. So how the conversion kind of looks like is, one we made a bunch of mistakes. Those are always fun to talk about. We had this idea, originally, that the driver's seat wasn't going to be a driver's seat. It was going to be a swivel chair. We wanted to have this chair that I could turn around and kind of like, interact with all the people that I was going to have over.
And so we like, I don't know if weld is the right word we sawed, I believe we sawed this giant hole where it was going to go. And then it didn't fit. So then there was just this permanent hole underneath the driver's seat forever. Like it's still there. That was a big, big mistake. And every time I drove it, it would just shoot hot asphalt air right under me. Made it so hot and terrible.
That's the measure twice, cut once rule in effect.
Yeah, we didn't measure at all that was really bad. And then another really poor idea on our part was we wanted to make more room, which makes sense, but we took out the air conditioner. And that also just played into like how brutal the whole experience was. But some things that we got right were we did put a power inverter in. We did have a second bed that was a couch that turned into a bed so somebody could come over and then had a little twin bed. The pantry and the
water. Yes, room. Yeah. Privacy. Somebody ended up living with me for eight months in it. So it worked out nice for a little bit. But the water tank. On top. Our vision for the water tanks. Ethan was we also drilled holes, I guess that was our thing, just drilling holes into places but we drilled a hole in the top and ciphered the water down to a sink and just let gravity do its thing. So all I would have to do is refill the tank up top.
The tanks on the roof. Nice. So you did like a gravity feed water.
Yeah, it was great. And then it shot straight into the ground outside.
Yeah. A lot of people do that.
Good. Oh, I guess. Yeah, it was bad. I mean, messey but like I mean, it's
it's a pretty self looking vehicle like because you look at it and you wouldn't think that there's necessarily someone living in it except for the water tanks. I wonder did they did they give you ever?
They did. So my first job out of college was working for the Department of Defense and the very first day they sicked the bomb sniffing dogs on it because they're like, "You have wires on top of your vehicle." And they did a full search. That was, yeah. They're like, "Is this your vehicle?" And I was like, "I don't know. Tje dogs are sniffing it right now. Maybe it's not today."
Yeah. Is this the your siblings father? Do you want to think about your like, oh, was my just like smuggling drugs in this van for him?
Exactly. All the doors underneath are packed with big things of coke? No, we figured it out, I definitely should say this that I think it was stealth to the greater public but since I had a nine to five job, it soon became a problem in my my day to day work life because that was the very anti, what you should do if you get a security clearance government job They're very unhappy. Yeah.
Why? Why are they unhappy about that?
They launched the government investigation on me, because because they thought I was their words, "a bum that was stealing money from the government". That was their words. And so they went through everything I had ever done for that organization. Like, every email I ever sent, every text I ever sent, every message I ever sent every you know, card was
that calling timecard. You put in every piece of work I've ever done, and they just pretty much tried to find dirt on me to, you know, give, give me that felon charge. I don't know if that was a real goal. But I think they were really concerned that I was taking money from them. It was a horrendous experience. But
That sounds awful. And you think it's all because of the van or the Suburban?
That's what they said, they're like, "You know, you drive this crazy truck. And we don't really know where you live." I was like, "I don't know why you have to know where I live. You know, I'm coming to work, and I'm doing my job."
Yeah.
And they made me like, give them a house address and all these things.
Yeah.
Uncomfortable.
That's rough. I'm sorry to hear that. You went through that. But but you stuck. You stuck with it.
I stuck with it. How I circumvented the whole situation was my ex girlfriend at the time, her friend gave me a call. And this is mid mid investigation, like maybe day one gives me a call and is like, "Hey, your ex girlfriend is going to go study abroad, and you need to take care of her car." It was a Toyota Corolla. And I was like, "I live in a car. There's no way on earth that I'm taking care of someone's car, especially since we're not even together anymore, you know?"
Right. Right.
And she's like, "That doesn't matter to me. I'm gonna come drop it off with you." And so she dropped off this Toyota Corolla, right in front of my Burb. And I have to like drive my Burb to Walmart, and then run eight miles back to get this car and then drive this thing to Walmart. And I played that game for like, maybe two weeks. But what ended up happening was I started taking the Corolla to work during the
investigation. And kid you not like three days later, one of the people heading it up, came up to me and was like, "I don't know why people think you live in a car. How could you do that? You have two cars." And suddenly all these rumors disappeared. And I was like, "Okay, yeah."
Wow. Wow. That's, that's impressive. So you just commuted in a different car. And that solved the problem.
That solved the problem. I ended up moving into the Toyota Corolla for two months, with nothing but a towel. Because I think I at that time, I really wanted to like not have any. Give them no reasons for suspicion. But it made life even more ridiculous. And, yeah.
So how did where did you sleep? How did that work?
Man, I would put the back seats, I'd fold them down, and then I'd stick my legs diagonally into the trunk, and then I'd use the towel as a pillow.
Wow.
And it was awful. And then I should probably mention part of this story wraps around, like ny crazy obsession at the time. I was super obsessed with getting out of debt. Like that was like my main goal. And I was starving myself not eating, not purchasing things. And I ended up losing between like 20 and 25 pounds and became malnourished during that time that I was doing all these things. So I was living in this Toyota Corolla. Like I was almost becoming
sunken. So exhausted, undergoing a government investigation and still feeling like I had to work. You know, 60 to 80 hours a week of overtime, just burning myself into the ground.
Wow.
But I had so much fun doing it at the same time. Like it's, it's not an experience. I look back on and be like, "Oh, man, I regret it." I was like, I loved it. It was a lot of fun.
It sounds like type two fun.
Yep. Yes.
More of the fun that like you look back and you're like, "Oh, that was great."
Yeah, and then you're like, "I can't believe this is real."
Yeah. So I mean, all jokes all kidding aside. I mean, this is how how did you approach the paying off of the debt because the top line number is $60,000. But was that made up of like different loans? Like what did you - where did you start?
I use the snowball method.
Okay.
So essentially just chopped down the little guy first. I was really big on like, I needed that motivational push I needed the momentum to knock one down and keep going.
Yeah.
That was probably the biggest strategy as far as like allocating the debt, but also, every time that I got paid, I would do these two things. I'd tithe and then I put all of the money into the debt. And then I'd be like, "Okay, I have 20 bucks to eat food for the month," or whatever it is. Just do everything backwards to ensure because I knew if I like gave myself, whatever my paycheck was, I'd find a way to like spend it on everyday living.
Yeah.
But I just didn't want to, you know, I wanted to get rid of it.
Yeah. So you did it in 11 months. $60k. And, and I think I read somewhere that, you know, your salary at that point was not that far above 60k.
Correct. My salary starting out was $62 or $63. Somewhere around there. And that's gross. So net, I was, you know, faling well under that.
Yeah.
And that kind of pushed me to do these, like 60 to 80 hour work weeks. And I think I'm like, kind of fortunate in that way that And I came in and I was like, "I'm gonna do 20 to 40 hours more than that." And yeah, never see the money
Just and just get rid of the debt. So you know, after the debt was paid off, how much longer did you continue living in the Burb? And I love I love the name. The Burb.
The Burb. I continued living in it for probably another year and a half to two years. or so.
You really liked it.
I think I liked it. And I also think that I became accustomed to it, like,
yeah,
it really became my lifestyle. And after like the six month mark, when I first started, like I mentioned my, one of my best friends, he joined me in living in the Burb as well, because I got him a job at the same place. He had a similar amount of debt, I think he had like 30,000. And we both like, found this, like rhythm, to push each other to spend less and less and pay off our debt quicker and quicker. And he ended up paying off his debt.
And then I think we had maybe like four months after we both became debt free, where we just continue to live inside the Burb and stack dough, as you know, try to get back on our feet. And somebody heard about our story, like living together and trying to do this thing together in China. And then they asked us to come to China to talk to them about living in like a Burb. And we just scared all these Chinese high schoolers to not go to
college. It was I feel like we maybe did a little bit of disservice because they're like, "Where did you wash your underwear?" And we're like, "We had to do this because we went to a private college." And they're like, "Maybe college isn't for us." I'm like, I don't I'm sorry. That's not what I mean.
That's amazing. I'm guessing you. You just threw out your underwear and bought new underwear when it got dirty. I'm kidding.
I just flipped it inside out. I never washed it.
Oh, gosh. Okay. Yeah, cuz you don't want to spend that like dollar on the laundromat that could go toward the debt, the debt payment.
Dip it in the pond.
Yep, yep. So. So you, you continue to stack dough. And at some point you you kind of transitioned from being a software engineer to being a software developer to do teaching others how to do what you did.
Yeah, I think a lot of this could have been prevented, had I known more about personal finances. And I really learned this the hard way. Like I made a crazy, huge decision to take on so much debt at, you know, 17-18 years old. And then I really didn't have any of the skill set to properly manage that debt. Nor did I have any idea of how to manage money or even bring in income. Like all these things that are kind of like, crucial to being able
to do it. So now I'm, you know, fixated on trying to help other people not have to, even if they're in the predicament of debt, like understand how to get the most out of life, have fun, be able to not feel guilty about spending things that you enjoy, but making sure that it's allocated and making sure that you're taking care of the other priorities of getting out of debt, and also putting yourself in a position where 20, 30, 40 years from now you will be fine. Like your investments will take
care of you. You won't be sad and having, you know, strangers or your children come give you baths if you don't want that.
Sounds, that sounds great. I'd like to tell you a little bit more about Tiny House Decisions, my signature guide and the resource that I wish I had when I was building my tiny house. It starts with the big decisions, which is, you know, should you build a tiny house yourself or with help? Is a is a prebuilt shell a good idea? Is a house on wheels better than on the ground and what works better
for you? Deciding on the overall size, deciding on whether you should use custom plans or pre made plans, different types of trailers and more. Then in in part two, we get into the systems, so heat, water, showers, hot water, toilets, electrical, refrigeration, ventilation, and we're only two thirds of the way through the book at this point. From systems we go into construction decisions talking about nails versus screws, SIPs versus stick framed versus advanced framing
versus metal framing. We talk about how to construct a subfloor, sheathing, roofing materials, insulation, windows, flooring, kitchen. I know I'm just reading off the table of contents, but I just want to give you a sense of how comprehensive Tiny House Decisions is. It's a total of 170 pages. It contains tons of full color drawings, diagrams and resources. And it really is the guide that I wish I had when I was building my tiny house.
Right now I'm offering 20% off any package of Tiny House Decisions using the coupon code tiny, when you head over to thetinyhouse.net/THD, that's THD for Tiny House Decisions. Again, that's coupon code tiny when you check out at thetinyhouse.net/THD. You know, you you talked about?
I don't remember where I read it just somewhere on your website is talking about how the experience of living in the van versus what you were seeing on Instagram, you know, in the like hashtag van life influencer type space, were just like wildly different experiences.
Yes, 100%. They absolutely are.
And do you think that that's? Do you think that's common? Do you think that most people who choose to live really live full time in a van or vehicle like that their experiences probably aren't being represented?
I do. I don't want to speak for everybody out there. But I do think it's absolutely glorified. Like van life, when I was in it, I was so frustrated because I was like, "I am tired. I'm exhausted. I'm sick of looking for safe places to park." And maybe it's because I was attached to this like specific location of my job. But at the same time, I think anybody living in a van experiences difficulty even if it's just searching for a
bathroom. I can't tell you how many times I would run into a Starbucks just to have them you know, open their, their bathroom or even where do you store your food? Because there is probably a lot of van dwellers like myself that had a little cooler and ice only lasts for so long. So your food goes bad.
Yeah,
All these other things are never talked about you to see these very scenic photos and videos of them out overlooking nice cliffs. But really, I do think there's, you know, there's there's just as much - I don't know if hardship is the right word, but there's just as much struggle in the in the van life than is actually portrayed.
How do you how do you like to track your expenses? Do you use a particular software or spreadsheet? Or how do you do it? And how do you teach others to do it?
Oh, man depends on where they're at. I think a great place to start is bring a - and this is somewhat somewhat extreme- but take a little notepad, take a little pen. Anytime that you make a transaction, write it down. I think that's the first step or at least in my eyes, because suddenly you're aware of how much you're spending and how often you're spending. Because there's this other action that you're going through saying, "Okay, I just spent five bucks at Starbucks, blah blah blah."
And your brain recognizes these things and it forms a habit. It's almost similar to how we've seen in studies where people who want to lose weight, instead of like telling people to go on a specific diet. They just tell them start writing down everything that you're eating, because suddenly you have a mirror that you're looking at saying, "Oh, this is actually
what I'm doing. You know, I can't hide this, these purchases online, these Amazon purchases that are hitting my bank account, but if I never looked at my bank account, I'm in the clear." I think that's probably the best place to start. My personal preference is not one that I would recommend for everybody. either. I enjoy doing it very similar thing, every time I make a transaction, I'll go into a Google Sheet, and I'll
write it down. I think the probably the healthiest of all of these is using a financial app. There's one that I like called Mint, it's very popular. But every time you make a transaction, you can categorize it, then you can see it on your phone, and it tracks your budget for you, essentially.
Yep, I've used Mint for a long time. And I really love YNAB - You Need A Budget? That's my personal, my personal favorite. But But yeah, I think just being aware of what you're spending is the first step. And then like, you know, in terms of helping other people eliminate their debt. Do you have like a target that you recommend of like, "Okay, what percentage of your income are you putting towards your debt?" Or is it just different in every, you know, different cases are different.
I think different cases are different, but I think it's always recommended, at least in my mind, to put as much as you can toward it, without, without causing yourself, you know, long term damage to your mental and emotional life. I do think, however, there's areas in our lives that we think are non negotiable, things to spend on
that simply are not true. And I also think most of these conversations are less about numbers and math, which, you know, when we write things down on paper, and we see, okay, you can get out of debt, and 1112 months, 15 months, whatever it may be, it's more about the
emotional side. Most of the time, it's about how people feel about money and their relationship with money for most people that, or I should say most for many people, money is a huge stressor, money brings up feelings of guilt, when they spend money is, you know, a sense of power control over, you know, maybe even their significant other. And I think it kind of takes these two steps of one for debt, making a decision to do things like to pay it off, because a decision
breeds action. And then two is kind of recognizing what's your actual relationship with the money you have? You know, how do you treat it? How do you feel about it? Are you stoked on it? Are you excited? You're like, "Oh, I gotta hold on to this," or ""Oh, somebody's gonna come get it, I'm gonna have to spend it." So I think that's the place to start too.
Nice. Yeah, many, many of my listeners have debt. And, you know, they are also faced, you know, they want to live tiny, and are faced with the unfortunate reality that it's really hard to get a loan for a tiny house. they're faced with both debt, and then the need to actually save quite a bit of money aside so that they can pay for this tiny house. What, you know, what would you recommend in that hypothetical, like, do you do tackle the debt first, and then save for the
tiny house? Or do you just say, like, "Okay, I'm just going to service the debt, I'll just make the minimum payments on the debt. Granted, it's not a credit card, but like, take care of the debt and just and then save for the tiny house, and then really pay it down after I'm living tiny." It's a catch 22 In my mind, but maybe you have a an idea.
It is a catch 22. I think my my gut is saying that you should always try to pay down the debt first, before you pretty much accrue more debt. Because it sounds like the mortgage isn't necessarily like a necessity. Right? If you have the power to pay down the debt that you currently have, you can do that. And obviously, you have to make some sacrifices along the way. But I bet for most people, they'll feel way more comfortable or at least be in a
better financial situation. If they pay down their debt, then saved then got the tiny house, then stack some fat cash, andstart investing.
Yeah, so that's that's like, investing piece is like the next piece of this puzzle for you. Because, you know, that's what allows, that's what allows the little guy to kind of tap into something bigger and actually build wealth.
Yeah, 100%. And I think the word investing can kind of be intimidating to a lot of people, but my, I have a very simple, easy approach to investing. I invest in index funds, their low expense ratio index funds that pretty much track the performance of the market. And they pretty much match a 10 to 11 or 12% ROI over the years. And it's easy, it's
pretty passive. And I think my encouragement to anybody listening is, you know, post debt life, it can really only take you 20 to 25 minutes setting up an account in Vanguard finding a index fund that follows the s&p 500 setting up automatic investments, or, you know, 500 bones a month to max out your Roth every year, and that over 20 years, four years, almost pretty much I won't say almost I mean it pretty much as we've seen it time and time again guarantees that we are millionaire by the
time you're ready to retire.
That's awesome. Now, is that similar a similar concept to the F.I.R.E. movement, that Financial Independence? Early Retirement? I mean, if you get if you get to that point where you can retire on the investments, I suppose it is.
Yeah. 100%? Yeah, I think I think it's similar in the sense of like, when somebody is in debt, they put as much of their things, much of their percentage of their income into their debt, I think F.I.R.E. in my mind is taking a very similar approach to get to a certain number in your mind. And investing for putting that percentage down until that number happens. I think for me, in my mind, my number is 2 million bucks. I think that's, that's my fire
number. Because if you take 4%, and the 4% rule is, you know, has some people have a lot of different opinions on it. But essentially, you could take 4% of your investments each year, and still be able to have your investments grow over time, and you'll never run out of money, essentially. And that would give you like, 80,000 bucks, 60s, around $80,000 every year.
So when you say $2 million, you mean $2 million? Like, in in principle?
Like, yeah, invested in index funds that are gonna continuously grow. And I can just snag a little tiny bit from it.
Right,
Every now and then when I need it.
Yeah, that's cool. And I mean, sounds like you're, you're on your way to doing it. Do you have a like, you have a target age that you're you're going for?
You know, that's, that's a great question. My target age for those finance goals is 30. But as of recently, I feel like I'm, as much as that is still a goal for me. And I will be pursuing that wholeheartedly. I think my mindset mindset is shifted a little bit in the sense of, now my goal is more so about, there's, there's let me say this, there's a guy that I know, and he calls it Impact Billionaires. More of my mindset is switched to serving as many
people as possible. And his his coin of Impact Billionaires is like people who are investing to serving other people. And those people are able to serve more people. And it's just this continuous flood of things that, you know, make the world a much more sustainable and better place overall. But 30 is my number. But I also want to have it paired with the idea that there's so much more than just accruing wealth for accruing wealth's sake.
Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool, I think. And that also, probably makes it easier to accrue wealth when you feel like you have a purpose behind it.
Yeah, and I think that's the biggest problem with since the problem that's the biggest emphasis and paying off debt or investing or anything that we do any goal starts with a why. Right? If your why isn't strong enough, you're not going to be motivated to do it. When your why isn't strong enough. The days where it feels hard, you're not going to
do it. So if there is no purpose, like you're saying, there is no something that gives you that fire in your stomach, fire in your belly to do something.
Yeah.
Then it's not going to go on. So for debt or for any financial reason, or living in a tiny home. That why has to be incredibly strong.
Yeah, yeah. Well, maybe one of the purposes for you is is your podcast, the Nickolas Natali Podcast? Can you tell us about it?
Yeah, absolutely. We have a tagline of entertaining or sorry, interviewing entertainers, experts and entrepreneurs to live a more fulfilling life and level up your business. And it's essentially just asking people who have either gone through something really challenging how they got through it, or talking to people who have successful businesses and saying, "Hey, what are the things that you did right? And what are the things
that you did wrong? And how can we implement that in our own lives to push ourselves forward?"
That's really cool. Because it's a it's like, I feel like if you were trying to just make a podcast about getting out of debt or about investing, you've probably run out of steam sooner than later. But you've been going now for what three years? Two years? Three years?
Yeah, I think I think I started in either, yeah, late 2018. Ish. So we're, we're right around there.
Yeah. Episode One Do you have maybe there are a couple recent episodes that you know, ones that stand out for you that you you'd like to tell our listeners about?
Sure. I think I'll stand out one that first comes to my mind is we just had somebody on named Austin Beals, and he has this story of he had this head fungus? This like dandruff? But like extreme dandruff if it's called like psoraric something or other. What he did was he created the serum in his kitchen, and then found a bunch of other people that struggle with this crazy head fungus. And then he supplied the serum to them. And now he has a profitable
business. And I think it's just such a good example of two things, one, using your own story and the things that you go through to help other people that are on the same road.
Yeah,
And two, as far as business perspective goes, one understanding who the audience you serve is, like, at their core level, like understanding like, what it feels like to have head fungus, or even like what it feels like to build your tiny house out perfectly, like really understand them, and then focus on them completely to serve them well.
Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. That's, that sounds like an awesome story. I'm looking forward to giving that one a listen.
Please let me know what you think.
Yeah, yeah, well, I will do that. So you have an online course? Which, just like the names of these things are awesome. Get Out of Debt Like A Maniac or GOODLUM?
That's right. That's exactly it. Yeah.
Nice. And so that, like, what, you know, if I signed up for that course, what like, what am I in for? What is that gonna help me do? Or is it gonna teach me?
Oh, that's gonna teach you everything from want getting out of debt, like a maniac, of course, but to managing your money in a way that's going to prepare you for the rest of your life. And three, hopefully relieving most of that stress that we feel around it. You know, it's one thing to pay off your debt, but it's another thing to feel stressed the entire time you do it.
Yeah.
I think the course has a has a big emphasis on, you're not going to sacrifice the joy you have in this life in order to pay off your debt. Yeah, we have, I have found a way to pay off my debt really quickly. And I talk exactly how to do it without when I'm talking about being now malnourished or any of those things. But also the fact that you can enjoy so much more life when you kind of flip things on their head and say, you know, I can prioritize my finances and also prioritize my
relationships. Because now suddenly, I'm not relying on having to spend an expensive meal just to see my friends. It's like, hey, there's so many other substitutes. Like we can go on a hike. And now we can enjoy enjoy the outdoors, or, you know, we can do any of these other not high expense activities, and still do things right. Also, there's things about credit in there, get your credit, right Things about how to pay off your debt best.
There's resources for you to use, like, all of the budgeting, spreadsheets, things like that. So anything you would need to get your debt paid off. It has it in there.
Yeah. So like, if you want to do what Nikolas did you want his help doing? It? Sounds like that's the place. That's the place to go.
Exactly. That's perfect. Ethan, I like that.
All right, use that.
I'm gonna pull on Oprah. Everybody look under their seats. There's a course ready for you.
Ooh. So one thing that I like to ask all my guests is what are two or three resources that either inspired you or helped you on your kind of personal journey that you would like to share with our listeners? Resources could be books, YouTube channels, movies, people. Open ended.
Yeah, I love that. I got the first one for you. And then I'll find the second one along the way. The first one is a book we all know and love. The 4-Hour Workweek. Tim Ferriss. A classic.
Yeah.
This one inspired me for a few reasons, I think. And this isn't like the direct emphasis of the book. But I think we all internally have, have some limited beliefs about what we think can be
accomplished. And I think what this book does is kind of say, you know, if you are willing to think differently, and if you're willing to kind of identify what those limiting beliefs are, that you have, you can suddenly open up this entire world of new opportunity, you can take back your time, while being able to still do the things that you can take back your time while still earning enough income to sustain yourself and do the things that
you love to do. So that's the first first one, the second inspiration, man.
It doesn't have to be two, it can just be...
There has to be two. Ethan, there has to be two. I'm gonna say the second inspiration for me is probably my brother Daniel. You know, not everybody has my brother Daniel as an inspiration, but I'm going to tell you about him. He's the one that helped me build out this camper
He's the one that cut the giant hole in the floor.
Yeah, that's why I'm inspired by him. He just saw to anything. Really. He was an example of kind of like the the integrity that I think I probably needed to see at a very
specific time in my life. And through that I've been able to learn and know for myself that integrity is such a valuable part of our lives and crucial to doing anything well, you know, because when it comes down to turning a quick buck for something, or doing it the right way, not cutting corners, it's always going to be the right way not cutting corners, and that's been invaluable.
Awesome. Oh, that's a that's a very touching place to leave it. Nicholas Natali, thank you so much for being a guest on the show today.
Thank you for having me. Ethan. You are a tremendous host. I think everybody should listen and give you five stars on all their all the reviewing platforms, Spotify, Apple. Give him the best reviews. Ethan, you're great.
I agree. Thank you so much to my guest, Nickolas Natali for being a guest on the show today. You can find the show notes, including a complete transcript, links to Nicholas's website and more at thetinyhouse.net/213. Again, that's thetinyhouse.net/213. Well, that's all for this week. I'm your host, Ethan Waldman, and I'll be back next week with another episode of the Tiny House Lifestyle Podcast.