Oh. Do you hear that music garden? I do. Oh, that could only mean 1 thing. It's time for another lovely episode of time and attention. Which is the podcast dedicated to helping you become a better more intentional human being I'm the c host of the S Bailey You are, wife. Just likely. Yeah. That is. Yeah I sound a little off. I realized I didn't mention that. Sorry if everybody. I'm am not an impostor. We're we're we're recording these together. Yes. Ar has not been sick for... Have not
2 sick 2 weeks a weeks. Feel like I have been, but no. Not between these 2. You sound a bit like scarlet Jo Johansson to me. If I close my eyes. And I don't know about that. That's a high compliment if that's true. But only if I'm sick toes so I don't know if it is that much of a compliment. But, yes. Mh just a little under weather and finally coming out of it, but fun time. So Good. You're on the up. You're on the But I I'm not an impostor. Alright. So last episode, we talked. Quite a
lot about the role meetings have. And Quite a lot. You said it as if we drone on and off. No. No. No. I... We had a whole episode though on the role of meetings, like, what meetings... What role meetings people or have in people's world. And so in case you didn't listen to that, just a minute ago, and you will listen to it 2 weeks ago. Yeah. As a
refresher, we some... We talked about some of these the literature out there that's kind of summarized these 4 main purposes that come out of of of the research on meetings that in general, meetings tend to be a focused on our or purpose of meetings tend to be about sharing information, solving problems, developing and implementing some kind of strategy and then deep briefing after some kind of event or episode or something like that. And so...
And I mean, that's probably not Rocket science If you think about your own meetings, like, you can probably think about where these fall. But also, maybe you have meetings that don't serve any of these purposes and you might wanna to think about whether or not they actually have a purpose. Are you? No. Because I'm, like super serious about not having meetings I don't need. Yeah. Including recurring meetings.
Nothing gets me upset about as as quickly as having like a stupid, needless recurring meeting. I am with you. Yeah. I am so with you. There there have been so many recurring meetings that have just kinda crept onto my calendar. You know, somebody... It starts off pretty inn. You know. Why why don't we just, you know, schedule a thing every couple weeks so you know, to check in and and and, you know, do do this. Do that. Mh. But then, You look at your calendar.
They they flood they they flood your calendar. Yeah. And so I've started so this is 10. I tell you. Un antenna Understandable. This... And I think this nicely bridges us into talking about tactics because I find I have a lot of projects where people say, let's just have a meeting every other week. To, like, check in on our progress.
And I think that's actually fine. We can spend 2 weeks and it not only gives you, like, if forces a deadline, which nothing will motivate people to get stuff down like a deadline. Because you don't wanna show up to that meeting unprepared or having shown no. Right? So Yes. Having that calendar event is helpful. But I feel like I used to just allow this to be, like, a 1 meeting block 1 hour block and then it would end up being, like, not very useful, and it
was totally unstructured. Yeah. And so now I push for those to be, like, 15 minutes, maybe half an hour. And so you have to really be thoughtful about, like, why do we have this recurring meeting? It's yes to kind of impose a deadline for some kind of progress update and then check in if there are any, like, technical issues. Right? If you've run into you... Oh I ran into this problem when we updated the results with this thing, Like, can we talk that through.
And so 15 minutes is usually enough time, maybe it we'll extend it to half an hour, but you being really intentional about who these recurring... Why these recurring meetings exist, just like pausing before you hit that drop down menu to say make it weekly every time today. May... Just just think about it before you commit. But this was the first tactic on my last question recurring meeting. Yes. You probably have some that crept onto to your account. I I think I have 1 recurring meeting.
I have... 3. 3. Yeah. What what are your 3? Like, with collaborators. 2 with research projects, then 1 is... Well, actually, All 3 are with what research projects again. Yeah yeah. Mine's with my creators killed. Mh and that is all. Oh, actually, I guess I have more than that because I also have all of my students. I have them set recurring meetings with me if face. If they want that? That you're
supervising. All my students said I'm supervising, But I block those into, like, 1, afternoon every month or every, like, 3 weeks depending what timeline they're on because I'd like to have them at the same time. So it'll all happen at once. Love it. Yes. How should we do this? Should we do, like rapid fire? Or. Do you do you think... Like, you were looking at the? So text with the research. So you mentioned there's these 4 kind of jobs that we can hire. Yeah. Meetings to do. There's
Sharing information. They're solving problems. There's is developing and implement strategy, and there's debrief after a project. Do do the tactics kind of nest inside of those or do they support them in general? No. They support them in general. And I think there's there was this just amazing paper by Alan and Le Warren book. Yes. Yes. Which is just a... It was like exactly what I was looking for Yeah. Beside everything. Yeah. It does have everything where it was...
It's a 20 23 meta analysis from the journal course the organizational psychology review. So post Covid. Post Covid, and it reviewed, I think, like, 500 pages or some papers 200 to 53. Sorry I was getting that 5. In the wrong place. 253 papers in this literature. To summarize what we know about how to make meetings as if as possible. Love it. And that's... This tells you like there's a lot of literature in this field. And I will say there are other meta analyses that
corroborate this. So we'll include, 2 of elective a couple of them in the in the show notes. But, so it's not just this 1 meta analysis that summarized it this way. But in general, so there are, like, a a couple of things. A and a couple of features that make meetings more effective. And that includes things so, like, how we lead meetings, how we interact during meetings, how we manage time. How we engage and how we relate to 1 another. And so there are
a lot... There... My take is that there's a lot of overlap between this and it really boils down to, like, managing time well, but also thinking about the interpersonal dynamics more than maybe I at least think of in general. Right? Like, So because a meeting is all about collaborating. Right. By definition involves more than 1 person. And
so this interpersonal piece, really actually matters. And maybe I've just been very fortunate, and I have really lovely colleagues and our meetings are always very c and positive and not there's not like this negative kind of behavior. But, I mean, a lot of the, the core features of what make meetings effective according to the literature are things like not engaging counterproductive meeting behaviors and encouraging positive humor with shared laughter in meetings, for example. And
so limited aggressive humor as well. Oh, jeez. Yeah. And I I mean, I deals are just things that I had not registered but or a big part of the literature. Yeah. And I I remember, you know, you mentioned group dynamics, and we'll we'll get more into this. But I I remember for this crater guild that I meet with every week. It it was a really big decision to go from 5 people, meeting every week to 6 people.
Because with... Each new person that you add, you raise the number of connections between the participants in the meeting exponentially. Right? Because you add 1 more to the kinda of network and everybody has a connection with that new participant. And so we were going from 5 to 6. And so when we did so, I I actually called up, a friend of mine Linda Sc, who, studies virtual meetings. Mh. Who kinda debrief me on this idea. And she mentioned, like, like,
she talked about those things too. Like, it's it's very much like what is the personal dynamic that somebody will bring. And what are the individual dynamics between that person and the other people that are... Will be in the meeting. And, you know, if it's like a once off and there's somebody who's kind of a gotta bleep it. Gotta leaf. It's just like last up, episode maybe it's worth, you know,
including them for... But, like, if it's a recurring thing or a regular thing, it's really, I think critical to look at the inter relationships between the different people. The more involved these meetings will be. Mh. So conducting yourself in a way that is just friendly and and kind is a huge part of the literature and just seems to be like a really big finding. Yeah. Across many different steps. It's wild. Like, so we need so much research just to tell us
to be nice. Well, not just be nice, but also, like, don't, like, so actually, a little bit of humor and a little bit of friendliness actually goes a long way. So not just being robotic and very like formulaic, but also encouraging, like, positivity and nice interactions is is actually constructive. 1 of the interesting things that was, like, engaging in those kinds of, like, chi chat before the meeting. So, like, arriving a little early so you can get those things out
of the away. Yeah. So that you actually start on time because that's another huge find... Like, a huge takeaway from all this literature is managing time in a respectful way. So you start on time, any end on time. And that ending thing is really really important because we've all been in meetings where it just kind of drags on and on and on and the end time isn't respected at all.
And that is something That is really important because you're not only showing that you don't really respect the time of your or of your peers, but it also can, like, really inhibit all all of those other things we talked about last week where the reasons or 2 weeks ago, the reasons that meetings don't work well or can become a drain on your well being and your your your... Extensive of well being within your organization is because they can take away
from other things. Right? Yeah. And so there are a whole bunch of reasons why you don't wanna leave meetings like to go over time, but managing time on both the front end end is really really important. My tactic for, getting out of those. The the ones that are running over is, I I say, it, you know, usually, you can see, like, if it's a 1 hour meeting, and there's 10 minutes left in the hour and you're halfway through the agenda or something.
I always just say, you know, I have a heart out at the top of the hour, sorry guys, And nobody really questions. Nobody's ever asked me what where are you gonna go? Where are you gonna meet with it? It's more important no. Just You have a heart out. Yeah. Your time is worth it. And I mean, III also tend to do the same thing. But is that what you say. Yeah. I have a. I had a hard stop. Now people will hear this So mean they'll know we do this. Even if I don't have another meeting,
I can still have a hard stop. Right. Like, if you're doing your own work. That is still something you have a commitment to. So we talked about time blocking like very recently on this podcast. And I take my time block seriously. So if I've committed to myself, working on my code for 3 hours at the end of this meeting. I still have a hard stop just because I'm meeting with myself does not mean that it's not
important. So Yeah. I I don't think I think it's being totally genuine when you say I have a hard stop because, yes, you have other things to do. That's not a shotgun. And so I I find it actually really frustrating when people just assume you can continue to talk after the end of a meeting. That's so. But that is 1 of the things that comes out of the literature, Like, Be a good steward of others time in the meeting is 1 of the things that the authors of this meta analysis highlight is 1 of the
key findings. In the literature. They say that 1 person should run the meeting? Yeah. So I will say 1 of the things that kind of surprised me is that there should be a leader for meetings. Right? And so and that just... It's... It... It's... That just means there's somebody responsible for we're defining, and this is come somewhere some of the other findings of, like, what are the key features of a good meeting or improving meetings in practice are things like providing clear goals. Right?
There should be a goal. For a meeting. If there isn't, you probably don't need that meeting. Mh. It shouldn't be to just, like, get together and see if we need to meet. No The meat there should be a purpose. Right? So Oh, I'm rolling my ass so hard at that. You know. But I mean, that is something that just happens, especially when it's a bigger group and you don't wanna say, hey. Do we still need this meeting, and if you've had it forever, while maybe there just hasn't been somebody to
asked that question. So making sure every meeting has a clear purpose and it has to some structure. Right? So there's some kind of process that your leader can make sure you follow through. So making sure there's... Some kind of organization to your meeting even if it's still friendly. Right? You can still be friendly and very collaborative and very kind and, like, chi chat. Mh. And there can be a sense of positive humor is the word they used here. There can still be positive humor when they're
still structure. Because if there's no structure, it can just end until, like, gossip or being con complaining, and that's another thing that comes out is, like, how you interact, avoiding complaints and, like, criticism and un civil behavior can really really drain on, the well being and the productivity of that meeting. I feel that's something I kinda for granted with the work that I do because, you know, there there are some people. Like, I I have these hard rules
for myself. Like when it comes to meetings when it comes to work in general, where I will do pretty much everything that I can to not work with somebody who's not kind, Mh. If somebody's rude if they're a negative presence, my opinion is life is too short. And I would rather lose money, I would rather lose work. I would rather take the day off, then have to work with somebody who who's like that. And and I know not,
Everybody has that luxury. Yeah. That's a very privileged thing to be able to to choose. Well, it's a self employed thing. It's an autonomy thing. Yeah Yeah. I I think like that's kind of a hard line. I I feel like I I'd kinda take that for granted a little bit. Yeah. Because you can't. You can't just decide you don't wanna work with people who are aren't kind if you don't have that kind of autonomy. But yeah, I think you can still choose to be kind. In meetings no matter who you're meeting.
You can just to be kind And so you can put that in that kind energy into the world is all we're trying to say it it was nice to hear that bit about the agenda too because, or having a goal because my my golden rule for meetings for myself is I don't... Attend meetings without an agenda. And and if there isn't 1, I'll just ask somebody, hey, like, sounds great. I'm excited to see you. Do you mind sending an agenda so I can prep beforehand. And the weird thing about that question, Harden.
Is whenever I ask it. Maybe a third of the time, somebody says, Actually, this will fit in an email. Like because they realized that by typing out an agenda, they've written an email that they could just send to me, and then that becomes the the email instead of a meeting. Well, that again, goes back to, like, the what the 4 purposes of your meetings. But if you would just, like, if there wasn't really a purpose to have some kind of back and forth and, yeah, It's good you to bet.
But I I think so I don't have a agenda for every meeting. Not be ones. We have a goal. And if I get to a meeting and we don't have a specific goal, I always say, what's the goal of this meeting? Always. Without fail because I also think that help that's helpful to keep things on the rails because I think sometimes meetings especially like I have amazing colleagues in all parts of my work. And I'm so so lucky.
And so sometimes it can definitely veer into the, like, let's just shoot the for an hour, and that's not what I not necessarily a best use of all our time. Sometimes that's in exactly the right use of your time. Right? You. If you are trying to just, like, if you're just trying to establish, like, a good rapport with your colleagues. That's then that's fine. Yeah. And that's honestly, that can be very useful. So that's like a purposefully
unproductive solution. It's great. There's nothing better. Yeah. And so they're, like, I actually just wanted to catch up like, that's fine. I'm that's what our goal is awesome. Yeah. And that again, gets back to your whole definition and productivity words, like, if you want to be like, what is your intention? And, like if your intention is just to catch up and hear what the other person's working on? Awesome. But I do try to... If I if I don't know what the purpose of a
meeting is? I do try to say, like, what's the goal here? Mh. Because that can just help keep us, like, we can come back to it for the whole meeting. And so if I feel like we're getting a little off track and you can say, okay. So what's the, like, next thing that we need to do to get this gold accomplished. Yeah. So, I mean, making sure you have a goal, even if you don't have a written agenda, I think can be helpful. Yeah. Well, some of these purposes of meetings like,
information sharing. Yeah. You know, an agenda it might be difficult if everybody's bringing their own thing. Problem solving. It could be a simple sentence it's like we wanna get to the bottom of why. Mh. Q 2 performance was down 12 percent. I don't know. It's. I'm sure people work on good stuff. Or it could be something, like, very, very simple like that. Yeah. Developing implementing strip. Like, it could be something as simple as. We don't have a strategy. We
need 1. Let's define everybody's next steps for this strategy. Like, it doesn't have to be this this multiple hundred word. A thing. Mh. But, yeah, a a meeting without an agenda or a goal is a meeting without a purpose. And that is it's a waste of everybody's time. And, you know, I'll I'll get off my my soap box in a second here. But nothing I'm okay with people wasting their own time. People can waste their own time as much as they want. They can go on Tiktok
when they work. They can, like, refresh email all day long, whatever. They do them. But when they start wasting my time, that is where I have issues. So, like, just the basic basic things, being respectful, you know, respecting that people are are sharing a chunk of their day with you. Have have an agenda have a goal. I'm sure we're preaching to the choir. Or I'm preaching preaching the choir with the listeners of time and attention, but man. Man art man. I'll I'll get out myself that's.
I mean, what you're saying is actually pretty consistent with some of what the literature findings Again, going back to what this this meta analysis is highlighted is that, This idea of, like, these this, like engagement feature of meetings is also really important to manage. Because so far we've been talking about, like, how you engage with, like, we're interact with your your collaborators and people you're meeting with. We've also talked a little bit about, like structuring your
meeting. But how you actually, like, host the meeting? So thinking about what kind of modality works better. Right? Is we're virtual in person more appropriate for what you're trying to achieve. Right? If you're trying to have just like a a really candid and un distracted conversation about strategy or something. You might wanna do it in person rather than online. Right? Although if everybody is virtual or, like, not physically in an area then maybe hybrid is
or a virtual is better. Right? Yeah. So thinking about not only the modality, so, like, what kind of time or what kind of mode you're gonna use, but also thinking about what time you put this meeting in. Right? And this gets back to that, like, makers or or manager schedule where if you are somebody who just does meetings all day, Yeah. You can put a meeting anywhere in your calendar, and
it won't matter. But if you're not 1 of those people, and you end up with, like, 3 awkward meetings in your day that chunks up your day into, like, unusable bits of time, I think there was that you did an interview with someone who call the time confetti. And I think about that all the time. Where. Yeah. And so I'll look that up as you as you... And so I think about this idea time confetti all the time. Where I'm trying not to end up with, like, a calendar that makes my day look
like I only have time confetti. Because so when... And so, for example, right now, I'm not actively teaching the semester. It's the summer. And so I'm focused most on research. And so I I mean, I don't block off the time and say, like, nobody can meet with me outside of these specific hours. Mh. But I do suggest specific windows of time. So I usually look at my calendar for like, the
following week. And if I have a meeting, I usually try to set, like, 1 morning and 1 afternoons where I even take meetings. Every week. And so that'll it'll change day from week to week depending on when I have, like, a student meeting or something, and all just cluster meetings around that. But I am in the very... I'm and in 1 of those maker schedules right now where I don't want meetings all over my calendar, and I want them condensed so that I can end up with big blocks of
time otherwise. And you do have that autonomy to be able to move them... But where big more people real don't Like, you can do this even if you have... Like, you can you can suggest certain times for meetings. Right? You can take that step even if you if even if you... Yeah, If you have lots of people that you report to or don't have as much control over your time. Lots of times, people will say we should do this meeting. You can be the person who says, Awesome. How does this time
work? And you can suggest the time that works for me? Yes. Yes. And so, I mean, I think that's an important thing to remember is you don't have to just say, I'm free anytime on Tuesday. You can say, I'm... How does this time work for you. That doesn't say you're not free other times Right? They might come back and often they do say, oh, actually, I'm not free at that can we find another time on whatever afternoon? And, of course, I'll,
I will, of course, find another time. But if you throw out an option, many people will just go with that as the default. And if I took the initiative to say this time works best for me, you can say no. That's totally option. I'm not thinking away that option for anybody, but I can set the kind of starting point
for what works for me. And other I see other people do that too And if other people say no I like to have my meetings blocked in a certain time, but I a hundred percent wanna respect that because... Mh. If they are choosing to manage their time that way. It's usually for a reason. Yeah. Yeah. Let let them be productive. Yeah. Episode number 42 time and money. Ashley Williams. The the the great author on the interplay between time, money and happiness.
That was the episode. Another tactic for running meetings, and I I have to, like, be mindful that this might be a function of the fact that I say no to pretty much every meeting that I possibly can, so the ones I have are or interesting maybe, but please, please please. Might laugh it. Because your whole tone in this episode is your can you just hate meetings. Well, luca. You have a lot of peeve about me. Yes I'm loving seeing. Yes. I do. Okay. If you're running a meter. Please.
I beg if you. Do all that you possibly can to make it interesting and exciting. Meetings should be an opportunity. Right? For everybody that's there, and they shouldn't feel like an obligation And I think, you know, that that frame for a meeting, it really helps set the tone. And maybe, you know, I've had some exciting meetings lately. May maybe that's coloring this tactic a little bit. I I told you I'm working on this mini course. I think I mentioned it it on the pod.
I'm super excited for this mini course. It it'll be out a while from now, so nothing to share yet about it. But these meetings where we're talking about the structure of the course, how to make it helpful, like, to optimize the structure around helpful and and delight people through the videos and the website and stuff, that's exciting. You know, it feels like an opportunity to be in these meetings and and share and collaborate on these ideas. And, you know, maybe if you have... 30 or 40
meetings a week, you might think, okay. This guy doesn't get what my my calendar is like. But for the most important meetings that you have, for the ones that you're running for the ones that you're owning for the ones that you're driving, make them exciting. Make the important ones exciting and interesting in any way that you possibly can. There's always an angle to bring people on board. Do what you can to find it. Interesting. That is not in the meta analysis.
No. But, I mean, cultivating a good climate is definitely in the meta analysis... People hate meetings because it it gets in the way and their focused for. Cultivating a good climate is the broader the broader. Yeah. I didn't know I can... Like, I I think a lot of re... It's it's kinda like psychology research. Probably. This is well, all psychology driven Yeah. Where it... It's like psychology is usually not positive psychology. It's trying to fix problems instead of make things incredible.
Why don't why don't you... Why why don't you make that your goal? Have incredible meetings. Sure. It's a pipe dream, but kudos knows. Okay. I I want your take on a tactic that I that I do. Mh. That I've been doing lately. Well, First of all, 1 1 thing that I like to do is just simply call people instead of trying to, do something just... Kind of in the moment. But but this is kind of tangent central to it.
Because there's times when I want to communicate something to somebody, but I don't wanna, you know, chat synchronous with them. You know, it's a quick idea. It's a quick, like, kind of note, but I wanna share it over voice, I kinda want that richness of communication. So something I've started to do with the people that I work with. And I haven't asked any of them if if it's annoying or not. I'm curious to get your take art of Nordstrom Phd. It is... I simply send, a little voice memo,
to them. You know, there's the voice memo feature on the iphone. I'll send a little voice memo, and they can send 1 back. They can type something out It's a great way of something's kind of on my mind to get that off to them. What what's your honest take? I I can take it. I can take whatever contact. I have lots of friends who send this to me. So you're not the only person who does no. Not. It's a common feature. I I think... My only complaint
with this is, like, the short term. The ones in iphone, for example, like, they expire after something like, Yeah. Seconds or something keep. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's a little annoying. Sometimes, we're like, I wanted to go back. You said, especially if somebody's doing it just because their hands aren't free. Sometimes there actually is, like, really like detailed information you're like wait, What time did you say we were gonna meet and it's like an invoice member or that's
just gone in the world. Yeah... Yeah. I think it's I don't I don't have... I think this is like anything, look, sometimes that's great. Sometimes it's less than great. And I think it's... It can be much faster for you to send a message that way. So I I think it's I think it's fine, but don't say anything that you want permanent in a voice memo that's gonna disappear. They're like quick collaborative idea things. I think that's fine. But. I mean, I think voice messages
are great. Cool. I also call people all the time. So yeah. I'm maybe not the right person. You're an odd millennial in that way. No. You know what I will stand by this lots of people love it. Once you do it, there are so many so many of my friends. I will say some friends never, like, really got on board. This idea. But lots of money. But. I don't know. I think 1 of them does that that I'm thinking of. Sorry you don't being w. You have felt you have to learn this.
No. You you don't... It's okay. You don't like talking the phone. We could text. It's all good. But some people love this, and it also just allows you to cultivate friendships in a way that Otherwise, it's not possible all the time, if they live close. Okay. So I think we're coming up on time, but I did just wanna mention 1 other thing that you actually hinted at, but I didn't get to to mention is a really, really important thing where part of me,
yes. You wanna make meetings engaging and useful. And part of that involves showing up prepared. Yeah. Right? So we've talked now a little bit about, like, making sure their structure, making sure people are kind and positive and and don't engage in counterproductive or, like, complaining active activity... Or activities. And I will say this like idea of making sure meetings aren't complaining fest is like, a big part of you literally changed like
that. No. No. No. Me personally. Which is why I'm like, so surprised such a big pilot that's what I check either, But I do think that I can see that. I see that being a thing. But this... We... So you can have all of those things in place. You can have very kind c colleagues, you can have all the structure in the world. If you don't come prepared, There's... It's not gonna be a productive meeting. And so that's the the last 1 I wanted to mention is just making sure people
come prepared. And and that means also making sure we will have the time to come prepared. Right? So I will hey, like, I have been sent, like thesis proposals, the night before their defense then you're supposed to read it, like, that day. And so I've got 1 once on a Sunday night and the for both the defense was Monday morning, and I was like, this should have been... Not. And so it wasn't my student so was it was fine. Like, it... There's nothing I could have done, but
yeah. Like, the... That's a that's a really hard that you're not giving people the time they need to prepare. Yeah. And so I I do think that's 1 thing just making sure you also give people time to prepare if you're asked for people to come prepared with something. So, preparation will help make everything just run smoother and make sure you can actually get whatever you need out of that meeting, whether it's to share information to to make sure you
can actually talk through a problem. Like, if you haven't talked thought about the problem on your own, you're not gonna be able to solve it together either. Love it. Yeah another 1. 0, bonus line. Okay. Bonus. So you you mentioned kinda giving people back time are respecting their time. If if you're in I know there's a lot of different meeting cultures out there. There there's some workplaces where meetings you know, there's no meeting Mondays. There's... Yeah.
And everybody's... Half the people are out of the office on friday. So we don't even bother to meet them. There's workplaces where every meeting is, like, meeting meeting, meeting meeting, like, a stack of meetings, every single damn day. And if you work in 1 of those places where it's meeting, after meeting, after meeting, after meeting. And you're in a meeting and people leave because they go to the next meeting, and there's just all meetings. Try ending your meeting on the 25 or
the fifth Yeah. Of the hour. Because people are so wiped, you know, or or or starting them on the 5. Or or the 35 or the 40. You know just just these awkward little times, you'll still get that because people's phil think because of the outlook default and the wake clocks work in 30 and 60 minute chunks anyway. So they'll they'll be kind of present, phil for for that 30 or 60 minutes. But the, you know, try ending or starting later
early. And, I mean, you mentioned that outlook defaults, but Google actually has that as a default now. You you can you can set that. So all of your hour long meetings and and, after 50 minutes and every half hour and at 25. Yes. And that that eliminates so much of the the zoom fatigue. Yeah. Yeah that. Just give see I can just stand up and... And stretch your legs. Stretch your legs, quick
bio break. Quick time to think about the next meeting, a little bit of time to plan and you'll probably find that if you work in a place where it's meetings on meetings on meetings. You may even earn that time back in just how much more thoughtful and and prepared people are. Yeah. You will get any complaining that way. Oh, yes. No complain pest. Unlike this episode of pod. I feel like for me was a complaint What was a bit of a complaint. I just have way better meetings.
I don't have a I don't have a lot of complaints I'm also... Yeah. I've also spent a lot of time thinking about how I can make sure your meetings are only when they need to be in my calendar. Yeah. Well, you... You're definitely in a in a culture where there's more meetings. Yeah. In academia versus Yeah. Being a a solar. Especially at certain times. Yeah. Sole, entrepreneur feel like I work with a lot of people, but... Yeah. I don't really know what the difference is. So pick whatever
you want. Yeah. Pick what you want, including with the tactics that we mentioned on this episode of time and attention, question the recurring, ask for agendas, have hard end times, leave those voice memos. If you want, If you want, end on the 25 for the 50, have shorter meetings. Be nice. Be nice. Don't be a dick. And be respectful of other people's time. Be respectful of people's time.
And attention dot f is where you can find all the corresponding show notes for this podcast episode and all the other pods that we've done. They're also in your pocket. Player of choice. Subscribe, tell a friend, post something. I don't know What do you do on take tiktok post? That don't do Tiktok fans. Tiktok. Yeah. I don't know if that's our demographic, but no. If not... I would just tiktok. It should be. Alright. Have a good week. We'll see you in a couple. Bye.