Why Male Loneliness Is Everyone’s Problem (So Many Men Feel This—But Can’t Say It)

My loneliness is killing. Me. So you think the male loneliness epidemic is due to capitalism? Yes, there's an economy for this. This is probably the first generation of men forced to navigate the type of self hate and body dysmorphia that we've previously only ever demanded of women. That's not good for men, it's not good for women, it's not good for anyone. It's not good for children. It's not. Good for dogs, it's not good for cats. Instead of gaming, how about pottery? Instead of.

Pornography. How about? Gardening. Let us know in the comments if you want to see us go undercover. As a lonely man, you can't progress on a problem and try to move towards a solution unless you name the problem and then you discuss it and then you put it out there in the world. There are no silver bullets, but there are Silver Linings. And what I mean by that is that there are no quick fixes. So like, I'm proud of us for tackling what is actually like a

pretty complex topic. I must confess I still believe, Still believe. I'm Cherie, I'm Jean, and we're the Tiger Sisters. We are your Wall Street and Silicon Valley Big Sisters. And we're a top ten business podcast bringing late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. Hey guys, we really need to talk

about the male loneliness epidemic. Is it actually an epidemic? I mean, I'm pretty sure it is, this is the first of a series that we're doing where we're doing kind of this like cultural investigation episode where we talk about this cultural touch point and we really get into it with lots of facts and figures, but also a real life male correspondent coming your way. Yes. And so today in this episode, we're going to be doing three

things. Number one, we're going to examine the rise in loneliness across the board #2 we're going to hone in specifically on cultural touch points that explore male loneliness in the most recent years. And #3 the thing that I'm most excited for, we're going to sit down with a real life man. My friend Ron Busby is going to share some of his experiences and thoughts on this topic.

By the end, to wrap it all up, we're going to have some key takeaways that are things that people can do, both men and women, to address male loneliness so that we can all live in a happier and more connected world together. Today's episode is presented by Sofi, the All in No one really knows me. That actually kind of breaks my heart. It's like low key, so sad. It's really sad. Not a single person. OK, well this next stat is even sadder.

The research in the Survey Center on American Life found that 15% of men claim that they have no close friends. Should we actually be worried about this? Yeah, I mean, I understand why people are calling it an epidemic. So can you please help us define what an epidemic actually means? Yes, OK, so according to Oxford, an epidemic is a rapid spread of a disease affecting a large number of people in a community or region, far exceeding what's

normally expected. So it's basically somewhere between an outbreak and a pandemic. I think this is actually the main thesis of this entire episode, which is how something that's called the male loneliness epidemic is something that has become everyone's problem in society. I'm excited to leave this episode on a very positive note because like throughout, you're going to notice there are some, like, pretty bleak statistics. Yeah, but there are like, really good outcomes if we work

together on this. And I'm not saying we're going to solve male loneliness in the next like 30 minutes to an hour. But I think as long as like, we're having more of a discussion on it, we're able to break it down for people so that it's more understandable. It's not something that we should be afraid of, but it's something that we should just continue to have more conversation around.

Exactly. And the first way you can address a problem or first way to solve a problem is to name it and address it, which is what we're going to do today. I think first let's break down the concept of loneliness and even the idea of male loneliness.

Like, why is that such a term in culture today? And do men experience loneliness in a way that's different than the way women experience it? Yeah, it's really interesting that it's like marketed this way because isn't everyone lonely? There's just like a loneliness epidemic in general, because before it was reported by the CDC coming out of the pandemic, that in 2023, there was just like rising levels of loneliness across the board. Yeah, I mean, I am, I

experienced that. I must say, I think a lot of people were really lonely during the pandemic. Yeah. And that's why people were, like, drinking so much wine. I think another thing that happened during the pandemic is that everyone got used to being so like online and remember like the online happy hours that you would have after work. Like a Zoom call at like 4:00 PM on a Friday and you're like, please let me leave. I don't want. To leave because I cannot show.

I can't show my face on the screen anymore. Well, I don't even want to look at a screen anymore. So, yeah, but so there a lot of studies on that now. So there's this 2024 study from Harvard that showed that 73% of people say loneliness is because of technology. Yeah, I think there's also this concept of, like, social snacking where, like, you are on your phone all the time.

You're scrolling through things. You might feel like you're watching people's stories and you're like, oh, I kind of know them, but like, you're not actually interacting with them in real life. But I'm like, oh, I know everything about what they're doing day-to-day. It's this like weird parasocial thing that happens now on social media. Right.

But you're not actually getting any real life synchronous connection with people where you're like exchanging energy and atoms and like, you know, resolving the loneliness, quality time. Yeah, yeah, there is no quality time on social media with another person, I feel like. Yeah. So I think that's why it's called like social snacking. It's like you're just getting these little nibbles or like niblets of social interaction throughout the day, but it doesn't actually add up to a

full meal. Like you're never actually going to be full from it. Yikes. And to top it all off, The Economist had an article come out in 2025 that highlighted declining marriage rates due to a gap in higher education and economic independence, especially among women, and digital life replacing physical

life. Yeah, this is a great sort of like precursor to our next episode, where we're going to talk about this whole entire concept of how women are now choosing to be single because they don't want to marry down. Yeah, so check out our Galantine's Day episode coming next week. Not too much away, Not where we talk more about this. So I think like all these stats are helpful to sort of set the stage, but also I want people to know that like, you don't have to feel depressed about it,

right? Like, I think we're doing the right thing here. We're. Doing the work. Yeah, we're doing the work in actually naming it. And once we name it and we talk about it, then we can actually, you know, work to solve it. So I think like another person who's done a really good job of bringing it to light is actually Scott Galloway.

Yeah, he recently had a conversation, I think it was in December of last year with Oprah, and it was super eye opening because they talk about the rising levels of loneliness, disconnection and emotional suppression.

The reality is men need relationships much more than women. The statistics are pretty stark. If you walk into a morgue and there's five people who've died by suicide, four men. I'm in marketing. We used to think that it was sex that sells. Then the algorithms found something that sells even more in terms of gluing you to a screen, and that is rage.

I mean, I don't necessarily agree with everything Scott Galloway says, but I think it's important to have a man, especially a man that like other men are looking up to, that's not part of the manosphere. And we'll get into that. But like, they see another man being vulnerable and talking about this, and I think that's also making a step in the right

direction. I think a really important thing that Scott Galloway called out in his episode was the fact that for men in society, especially Western society, the most socially acceptable form of expressing dissatisfaction or unhappiness is anger. Yeah, that kind of perpetuates

in a lot of different ways. Well, I think it's just like men can feel complex emotions, but the way that it's outwardly expressed is through anger, sadness, loneliness, like these other emotions, you know, there's many more of them, but they all kind of like funnel into like, oh, like Hulk smash. And that's exactly why male loneliness is a public problem. It's like, that's why it's actually a public health

problem. That's why it's everyone's problem. Because the way that men sort of like metabolize loneliness, metabolize dissatisfaction, metabolize depression is outward anger. As opposed to, I think the way that women are socialized, the way that we've grown up our entire lives is to sort of like push it down, not make other people uncomfortable when we're uncomfortable, right? Like we're always reading the room. We're always being like, is

everyone else OK? Like we are trained to like, sit on our emotions. And it's like a more of a private issue. Yes, it's a private issue. I think that is the main difference is private versus public expressions. Yeah, it's interesting because like this problem, it's like very circular because I think like men are taught not to show a multitude of emotions by this, by society, you know, they're like, look, it's looked down

upon. And because of that, they're like bottling everything up and then it explodes into anger. It's just like this reinforcing loop that's not good for men, it's not good for women, it's not good for anyone. It's not good for children, it's not good for dogs, it's not good for. Cats, it's bad for everyone.

It's bad for all around. It's like a reinforced thing in society too, because I think a lot of men are facing their emotions by bottling it up. Whereas like women in society have other women to lean on. It's like the male loneliness. They're lonely because they can't talk to anyone about their feelings because then once they do, they become vulnerable and they open up and that's not accepted.

So it's like women have, I mean cry alone when they're sad or depressed in. Private commiserate in bathrooms Together bathrooms. Or like they have a stronger friend group that they can rely on and, you know, vent with in like a healthy way. There's this 2025 article in the American Institute for Boys and Men, founded by Richard Reeves, where they found that many men are withdrawing instead of trying harder and trying to actually engage in society.

So what they're doing is they're going on less dates, they're having less sex, they are spending more time on solitary activities. So that's gaming, that's streaming, that's watching pornography, that's creating online communities that are. Harmful. Harmful and like, not so savory. I mean, instead of gaming, how about pottery? Instead of. Pornography. How about gardening? What about being one with the earth? You know, sowing some seeds? Oh my God, in the actual

physical garden. She wants you to go and touch grass, like or touch clay. Yes, basically, sure. He's like touch one of two things, grass or clay. The one with the earth and she gets.

Some solved male loneliness like by the way, did I think she solved? It did I go on a hike, get a dog. I think these are these are like. Legitimate suggestions. These are just all things that Cherie enjoys doing. Just like go for a swim in the morning. Go for a morning swim in like a cold pool. Seek therapy. Your vagus nerve. Yeah, I I think all these things are really good. Get a massage. What if we do the opposite? What if, in in service of investigative journalism, we do

all these things true? What if we? Yeah, yeah. And then I recommend them to all the men out there who are. No, I'm saying what if we stream, we game, we watch pornography. No, I think I'd be sad if I did all those things, like exclusively, you know what I mean? Well, yeah, I mean, that's what this study found. Yeah. So it's not good. But you could prove it by trying it. No, thank you. Pass Let us know in the comments if you want to see us go undercover as a lonely man.

If you were a real journalist, you would do it if you were a real investigative journalist. That's true. I am not a real investigative I. Challenge you? Okay, well one more thing I think is very interesting is that obviously we've brought a ton of stats and studies and research into it, but even the concept of loneliness itself is very internal and it's all very like self reported.

So we're still relying on men even recognizing that they're lonely, which I suspect it's still heavily under reported. Yeah, because that's not something you want to admit to yourself. Yeah, like even I'm not a man, I'm a woman. But I in times when I've been lonely, like you don't want to admit it. It's sad. It like makes you even more lonely to to admit that you're lonely. It's like, right. I'm so lonely. Wait. That's like the saddest thing

ever to be like I'm lonely. Well, I actually a couple months ago, like in 2025, remember, I had like a lonely face. Yeah. And then I had like, this was a real thing. Where? Like and then I felt bad because like she was living with me. I'm like, why you lonely? Like we're, we're hanging out like all the time. Well, it wasn't. It's not like you're, it's your fault. It was something I was feeling internally. I know, but I felt bad. Too. You're such an empath and. You don't.

Need to. Be I have problems. But I think the thing that that I was dealing with was that like, there's a difference between feeling lonely and just being alone. Like you can be alone without being for sure, which is something that like towards the end of last year, I felt like I was hanging out with my sister for work, my like one really good friend in LA. And then my boyfriend and I was just like, where are my other

friend? Like I was just so concentrated on like, those three relationships that I felt I felt lonely because like, I think I'm used to like, just being around a lot of people all the time. Yeah. But I was like hyper focused on just like work stuff. So that consumed a lot of my life. Yeah. And so it's balancing loneliness versus alone with a heart around it. Yeah. I mean, I think actually you are really, really good at being alone in a healthy way.

So like, you're one of the first people that I knew that was going to see movies by yourself because you thought it was fun. Yeah, you. This was like groundbreaking. It was like groundbreaking to me. Wait guys, I did it for the first time ever this year in 2026. She went to the movie theater by herself. By myself and it was so fun. Can we do a breaking news banner and some like news music breaking news woman goes to the movies alone by herself for the first. Time, yeah.

I mean, you were out of town, you were skiing. So I was like, I guess I'll go by myself. I actually. Feel like this is like a pretty new phenomenon, just like in culture, like taking yourself out because I see it on TikTok like a girl's like, Oh my God, like this is a huge milestone. And it is. I've just been doing it for a couple. Years. She's writing so low, Writing so low. Jason Derülo, like you said, solo dinner and the song was playing in my head.

Really, it's fun. You can like bring a book, bring your Kindle and then just enjoy you time, get whatever you want. You don't have to compromise like we're not sharing apps. All these apps are for me. So get whatever you want. It's like really refreshing. Solo dolo? Solo dolo. So I guess you're not lonely anymore. Anymore. But back to this idea of lonely men. So have you ever been affected by a lonely man?

Yeah. So in my early 20s, I dated this guy and very early on I realized that he didn't have many close guy friends or girlfriends for that matter. Also, I guess he didn't really have that many friends, period. But very interestingly, I introduced him to my group of guy friends, my group of friends and the guys that he met. And it was uncomfortable and my guy friends later told me that like it was just really weird because there's the guy I was

dating had like an alpha energy. He like couldn't really connect with my guy friends. He was trying to like one up them or kind of put them down. It like just wasn't like a fit for personality, which is weird because like I like the guy I was dating and I also like my guy friends. So I thought they would be able to get along. So it was very odd that there was this like macho energy. Machismo. Machismo energy, yeah.

So I don't know. I've like seen it up close that like he didn't really have that many friends and wasn't able to form that connection. And like, did you see some of these other symptoms? Like, you felt like you had to be the 1:00 to, I don't know, like initiate conversations about, like, how are you feeling? Like, you seem like, yeah, he was kind of repressed. You had a bad day like. He was definitely avoidant, OK, and I was definitely anxious in my early 20s.

So anxious plus avoidant is not a good combo for two people to be dating in your early 20s when we're still developing our prefrontal cortex. But also he was like very repressed. Like I think he he went inward a lot. There was a lot of gaming and a lot of streaming. Interesting.

That's why I was gonna ask. Interestingly, OK, I didn't actually put that together until like, we're kind of talking about it. Yeah, but he did game a bit and like have I think a lot of his internal stuff going on. Well, thank you for sharing. I think that's really interesting to have like your account of your experience of it and I also think it is the perfect time to bring on our

male correspondent. A real life man, a real life man, my friend Ron Busby. And we'll get into the conversation with Ron right after this break. So you know how every year I have a New Year's resolution around finances? Oh, I have one too for 2026. New year, new opportunity to get our money right. And part of that is having a bank that isn't just a place to park our cash, but something that actually works for us.

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Sofi Plus is a great way to get more for your money and you can get started for just $10 a month. Go to sofi.com/tiger plusthatssofi.com/tigerplus. And now back to our show. We're really excited because this is our male correspondence section of the podcast, our

first ever, first ever. And we'd like to welcome Ron Busby, who is my friend from college and also the Co founder and head of product of Buy Black, which is a company that helps and empowers black-owned businesses and business owners. Thank you all so much for having me, I really appreciate it. Yay welcome to the Tiger Sisters podcast. Happy. To be here was how do you say a long time listener, first time caller. Oh yeah, there you go. You ready to dive into the male

loneliness epidemic? Yes, you know, I'm looking forward to unpacking this and I think entering the inner recesses of the male mind. What could possibly be going on there? Yeah. So, Ron, are you lonely? Starting off like that, yeah. The real question is, when you hear the phrase like male loneliness, as we've been talking about in this episode, what parts resonate with your own lived experience and what parts feel overstated or misunderstood?

Yeah. I mean, I think that in many ways, yes, I I think we all naturally feel some degree of loneliness. And I think it's really important to own that and not pathologize it as something so unique and only exclusive to men. To your question around, you know, what does it mean and what do I think about that? For me at least, when we talk about male loneliness, what I'm more interested in is the idea

of like male alienation. And when we talk about it from that idea, I think we're able to better point to who and what are actually creating and facilitating that kind of reality. That to me is way more dangerous and pernicious, but it's actually more emblematic of what is at the stakes for men today. Yeah, what? You mean like self alienation? Male self alienation. Funny enough, I I think it's more about what society and our

economy and what are. Our educational system are doing to men and ultimately how that sort of creates these ripple effects. And if we are able to have a modicum a bit of like earnest empathy, then we actually may be able to step outside of this idea of like, oh, it's it's a male problem or it's a men's problem. Rather than actually like we have a social media infrastructure that is actually benefiting from us being on our phones rather outside with each other.

And that actually then sort of double S down into all these other realities that we're experiencing. Yeah, I think it's a pretty bold take for you to say that society is kind of causing this sort of male alienation crisis when we live in a patriarchy. I And so I think the reality is that, right, patriarchy impacts men as well. And so the idea that men aren't victims is exactly what allows us to create this binary, right? This conversation is inherently

very heteronormative. But like the idea that men are also at risk of some sort of violence by the systems that they've also created, it robs them of the agency and robs them of the capacity to be empathetic individuals in this. And so I think that's also what's really important. Yeah, that's an interesting nuance, but I find it quite

frustrating. Slash, like, I don't know, like my head is on fire in the sense that like women have been, I don't know, like I don't even want to say victims, but like the patriarchy has been inflicted onto them. And like, for the first time in society, like in social times, I feel like men are feeling like the patriarchy being inflicted onto them and being like much more vocal about it because of

the male loneliness epidemic. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's no doubt about it. Men are particularly lonely. But, you know, I think there was this Pew study that came out of 2025 that said that 15% of women feel lonely all or some of the time, but 16% of men feel all lonely all or, or most of the time. And I think what's important is actually realizing that we are all experiencing loneliness.

And the reality is it just happens to be, at least in my perspective, is that it's just more dangerous when men are lonely. OK, so Ron, what I'm hearing is that there is a rising loneliness epidemic across the field for both men and women, and perhaps it is more visible for men, but let's dive into the definitions here. I know one thing that we've seen is that the UN actually put together a glossary of terms that are sort of in the male loneliness slash manosphere world.

So we don't have to go by the, you know, UN definition. But I would love to hear from you what are some sort of like key terms that are in this sort of ecosystem and like how do you

define them? Yeah, I think one of them is probably like manosphere, right? I think it's already kind of come up. And I think Manosphere is this conglomeration of media, websites, places that men, most often digitally are talking about. All these things are as relates to their own views and their own skews around the economy, around diversity, around politics and around dating. And so those things end up having, I think often times a very like productized element,

right? So a podcast in between the ad break is going to sell you the carnivore diet, or is going to sell you the blue shoes and the pills for erectile dysfunction, or is going to tell you that what you really need to do is take more testosterone. And so the idea that actually there is an infrastructure that both pirates and profiteers can participate in, that push this kind of element, is really what fuels an economy of the manosphere.

I'm like so terrified of that because it becomes this like really scary echo chamber where it's like, it's the manosphere and like the ads that you're seeing, the guests, the voices. When you say diversity, I'm like thinking in my head. I'm like, diversity of what? Like of what guests are they having? Like literally height or like beard or no beard. I think that's about right. I mean, and the, I think recognizing that there is a language that we are maybe not a part of as much.

And when I say we, I probably am more adjacent to it than most just by virtue of gender. But like knowing that there are worlds that you just can't access and because of that you actually may not understand or appreciate how insular it is. It does sort of create a a spiral effect downwards sometimes. Well, I think nowadays too, like the manosphere and outside of the manosphere, like everyone

has their own algorithm. So when you are a part of the manosphere, you just go deeper and deeper into that hole or like, you know, whatever you're into, you just are in that vertical and like what you're watching is not what other people are watching. I mean what I'll even add to that is you know, I was having a conversation with my 10 year old cousin and we were joking about what chads were and what giga chads were and what looks maxing was. Let's. Go into this.

You know, the idea that he gets it almost in an ambient way, he understands what this is. He may not necessarily buy into this. He's not necessarily looking to neg women, but like he understands that some level what the language is. And so knowing that that actually means that he is more primed to be able to both negotiate and navigate what other men are talking about is

concerning. And I know we we kind of have pointed at this, but the idea that in cell culture has just sort of really become a layer on top of the way that we talk about all of this. I want to say it's even like 4B is the language when you talk about like, you know, women in terms of this, but the idea that.

I'm not familiar with 4B. It's this like Korean movement where women are saying that they are not going to have children anymore because they want to opt out of basically the patriarchy and like the expectations put on them.

But so I think the idea that in cell culture as it particularly is relevant to men, but like the fact that me and a 10 year old 20 years apart can be connected to some degree in our conversations about mewing and, you know, mogging is really, it almost feels like a foreign language when I'm right next to his mother and she's trying to understand like, what part of

the world is he on? And it's like, oh, like, maybe we need to get off of video games or maybe we need to not be, I don't know, streaming on Twitch. And I think the reality is that there are a lot of people who are actually doing a great job of meeting people where they are, meeting them in the mediums that there are in and to actually demand maybe a different perspective to some

degree. Letting those men and letting those faces only operate and exist for a certain type of politic and idea can only allow it to fester as well. OK, so I agree with your concept, but when you said it, I definitely bristled because I was like, OK, like, why do we have to do this? Just because that men are having these sort of like dangerous conversations in these spaces? Like, why do we have to go into these spaces and insert ourselves? Because it's never happened for

women, right? Like in society, it's not like when women are sad and depressed or lonely. There's no, there hasn't been an effort to do the same thing, to like enter women's spaces and like help women that way. Not that you know. I know you don't represent all men, but you are a male correspondent and you did propose that as a solution. And so I would say this, I don't think that this is the responsibility of and I put this like air quotes of women to solve exclusively or even in any

majority way, right? I'm not necessarily looking and pointing a finger and saying, you know what the problem is? You're not on Twitch right now live, you know, talking to the boys. That's not I'm not demanding that. I think what I'm also saying is that it's going to any real progress is going to really require a deeply inclusive strategy on how we actually push

this agenda forward. And I think that there it's much easier to be austere and say, hey, you know, we don't want to practice a politic of purity. Hey, this is the way that it gets done. Anything that's not in that is actually not worthy of my time. And the reality is that these conversations are happening. And so whether it's me or my friends or whatnot, we owe it to ourselves to actually extend an olive branch and bring those men in because we know that, you

know, male loneliness, right? Men are 3 * 3 or 4 times more likely to commit suicide, right? So the reality is the mass violence, the, the shootings, the, the people who are most at risk of the downstream impacts of loneliness can't afford for me to be like, oh, like, it's not my problem. It's, it's, it's not where I personally want to be. I think that's really important in that regard.

And then just to put a point on it, would you say that the prevailing cultural force like is the manosphere, is that the majority? And we're just like, so stuck in our ivory towers that we have no concept of it. I absolutely don't think that the manosphere is some sort of dark horse in all of our politics that somehow is operating at some cabal level. That is, you know, the, the, the new Illuminati of like the way that we exist.

What I do think is that we probably are not doing enough to really own and accept how important it is to bring men into progressive agendas. Well, so Ron, before you mentioned some vocab words and I kind of want to get into some definitions, you said Chad giga, Chad mewing, mogging. Like what is the overall definition for a Chad? A Chad is this Internet term for a generic alpha male or a print

or a dominant man. And they are often times, I guess, like an effortlessly formidable guy. And they're, I think, put as this archetype, an archetype of what often times insell men are trying to compete against. And so they kind of have this almost seemingly easy way of existing through life. And it almost robs these guys that they're calling chads of the ability to be, you know, broken or upset or, you know, insecure.

And because they are not allowed empathy, because they should be easily able to kind of operate and move through life, it creates these dynamic of this man versus this man. Yeah. And so for Chad, like can we talk a little bit more about like some of the repercussions, like the when we talk about the physicality and how now there's like a level of expectation that like men have to look a certain way, like what is what is that all about?

I think what's super interesting is thinking about how meme

cultures also helped sort of articulate what we visually assume these men are supposed to be. Super jacked, nose stripped. Like the the jaw is extremely chiseled. Like it. It's funny to think how easy we've kind of created these visual markers of a certain type of man as like what we all aspire to. I think that's the reason why all the boys are going to Turkey to get the hairlines.

You know, I think that's the reason why there is literally gum that you can buy that will help you build your jawline to have it more defined. Like the amount of men who are now doing something called pinning. Pinning is the increase or just the use of steroids. Anabolic steroid usage is up among men because they want to look more yoked, they want to look more brolic, they want to look more aki like this. OK. The last one I've never heard. Aki.

Aki is definitely a New York term for like, strong. Maybe I want to be Aki. Yeah, Hey, as we all should aspire to, you know, a little little defined is not a bad thing. Look, I mean, I'll even point to the fact that we have something called the enhanced Games, right? The fact that there is now going to be an Olympics where people do steroids in Las Vegas. What? Is that really?

Yes, this is a thing right? And you know you can if you if you break a world record, you can get like something like 250,000 to $1,000,000 in certain, certain events. But I don't love that because doing long, doing steroids has long term like side effects and health effects and that's not good for anyone. I mean. You're speaking to the choir here. I'm. Right, I'm like what?

But the fact that some of our biggest this venture capitalists are absolutely funding this exercise and this part of this to me is exactly why this is not just a feel good cultural exercise. It is deeply economic, it is deeply political and it cannot be disassociated from the fact that there was an absolute agenda around what masculinity

and manhood should look like. I mean, one thing I'll say though, is is masculinity, masculinity and manhood and the expectations of that in society just now, like finally barely beginning to catch up with the expectations of femininity and womanhood because like you're saying like, oh, steroids are bad for you. Well, duh.

But you know what's bad for you? Like getting your nails done and getting gel nails every day of your life from the age of 4th grade, spraying your hair with Hairspray, like using perfume. Like all of those are all of those are poisonous, and women do it every single day. What I will say is I think the, what I'm always cautious of is like pointing a finger,

particularly at women, right? I like, I think that there are specific beauty standards that women don't have the luxury of being able to opt out of. I think what you know, like the thesis I probably have on this is that this is probably the first generation of men forced to navigate the type of self hate and body dysmorphia that we've previously only ever

demanded of women. And so with that, I think you kind of get all of these like sad senses of like what I'm supposed to look like and who I'm supposed to be. And in that you were sold all of these products in between the commercial break about what you should be doing and how it should look ultimately be, you know, a certain type of man. Welcome to my life since I was 8 years old.

I mean, not to say I know it's like, you know, you don't want to invite other people into your like, misery, but I don't know, like you're upset. Am I? I think you should be. I think that's the beauty, right? Like if we are angry, we might do something about it. Okay, right. Like I think that anger is. A She ain't doing shit. What are you doing to help the male loneliness epidemic? I don't know. I'm waiting for Ron to give my. Solution. Yeah, yeah.

But. I think anger is a useful, necessary driving force of change. If we are not angry about them as we should be, I don't think that we feel nearly as motivated to actually go about fixing it. I think it's really sad. I guess I just feel, I feel empathy, like I think it's really sad that like anyone that like women have been going through this for like such a long time. And it's really sad that like men, it's now much, much more public.

And I kind of am glad that it is because then we, I hope we can address it as a whole is like my, my thing. I just have empathy and, like, I don't think women should feel bad about how they look, and I don't think men should feel bad about how they look. And we're kind of at it like a reckoning where it's like, yeah, now, like, men are, I guess, victims of the patriarchy. And it's much more visible. Men have always been victims of it, right? That it's not as though it is. New.

And so if we really own the fact that like this is an ongoing struggle that everyone from, you know, Judith Butler or Nikki Giovanni, I've been talking about like there are books out the wazoo about this. It's just that I think men are having the ability to spread bad ideas a lot faster. And so, you know, it's it's things are moving at the speed

of a click and so or clip. And so I think that, you know, it's really important that the ways and the tools we have to actually combat that meet them in those different mediums.

OK, well this might be a bit of a hot take, but I think that one could argue that this evolution of the expectations that are now placed on men in terms of like looks maxing and improving their looks and being jacked and stuff, maybe that's actually a sign of society progressing because now there's like more equal expectations of men as there are of women historically. I maybe I'd be, I'd be concerned about that to some degree because I don't know that that's necessarily what we want.

I don't know if that's progress. I'll say it that way, OK? I don't know that my dream is that women feel pressured to optimize and aesthetize everything about their lives, nor do I want that for men. Yeah, but I don't think that's ever going to go away like it's been, you know? Maybe, but I think that, you know, if if we do it right, right, if we really are pushing for something, maybe the point is like, how do we actually push towards a kind of acceptance of

like graceful aging, right? How do we accept people who operate without makeup? How do we put a kind of appreciation of like the simplicity and the like quality of who you are as you are in its most physical and honest sense? I agree with you that in an ideal world, nobody has the expectation of wearing makeup. Everyone can show up as they are, feel beautiful, feel confident, contribute to society with their unique gifts, etcetera.

However, I do not think that that is a reality that will happen for women in our lifetime or even in another lifetime beyond this. I don't think that expectation of women having to wear makeup for example, is going to go away. And I only think it's the fact that now that these expectations are placed on men, that is the actual the only possible teeny, teeny tiny hope speck of a hope of, of us being able to move to a society that is like, I guess you could call it like post looks.

Do you know what I mean? Like it's only because men now feel that same pain, like a fraction of a percent, that society can maybe shift. Well, that's kind of what they say. It's like if men had periods, then we would all have pads. Pads and tampons would be free. Yeah. There wouldn't be a pink tax.

But I think what I would say from that, I think is there was this idea maybe that what we really should aspire to is a kind of spectrum of gender performance, one where the boys can wear makeup and paint their nails and that be just as good to show up that way. And you know, my grandma doesn't have to wear or feel she needs to wear heels to come to walk

outside to show up to an event. And that is the thing that I think that if we get there where both sides of that spectrum are both equal and valid and beautiful, I think that that's the world that I believe we can reach in this lifetime. Or at least I think it's one worth fighting for in this lifetime. I don't believe that my kids should be the only people or my grandkids should be the only

people that get to benefit from. That not grandma, OK, Ron, I think you are a very uniquely progressive individual in my mind. Which is why we're friends. Yeah, that's true. I mean, if we had a world full of Ron's. The world would be a better. Place that would be incredible, but I am very curious like what is your take on on kind of this entire conversation but applied to like dating, for example, and do you think like your take is

similar to your guy friends or like you know the the ecosystem of men? I think it is Hard Out Here. I am in the streets and so anybody watch? Let's put his handle up on on the screen. His DMS are open, yes. Always please shoot shots. So I think it is Hard Out Here, right? Like the research would say that for every woman on any of these dating platforms, the hinges, the Tinders, the Bumbles, whatever, there are two men. So it's that 2 for one, right?

So knowing that in that way, I think this is exactly what fits into this kind of logic around red Pilling or black Pilling, IE, is it even worth trying to go out there and date is because I think that you might say that there's an algorithmic approach to this. If a platform, a dating app says the only way that you're really going to get seen is if you just pay like 30 bucks a month and then we'll show you to more people, they have no incentive for you to leave because next

month it's not $30. And so I absolutely feel as though there is one big conspiracy out there that is absolutely benefiting from people being unhappy, unsatisfied, and unconnected or disconnected from intimacy. Because then you don't get to play these really silly games around finding partnership and connection. So you think the male loneliness epidemic is due to capitalism? Yes, there was an economy for this.

And so there is no way to not look at the balance sheets of some of the largest companies on earth that ask, hey, how convenient is it that I'm a little less happy and that you are the ones selling me happiness. OK, so let's let's move into the solution space. Not all, not all like doom and gloom. Well, I think it's interesting because we gave it the context and now we can talk about like, so now what?

Like what can we do? What can women do? What can men do? And what can society do as a whole to move us forward out of the space that we're not happy about? I think that from maybe what men can do most immediately, I will offer some things that feel very hand WAVY, but I do think are actually honest ways to appraise gender, which I think we probably as men need to do a better job of like reading feminist literature, right?

Like, I think that I know that sounds like the most obvious thing, but like reading that doesn't. Sound that obvious? I'm happy about that.

But like reading feminist theory and, and, and just getting some baseline understanding of what the imagination for a world where women are equal and where women are actually not the objects of sex, but simply are people who are building community and building progress with you is probably the best thing that we could just start with is just opening up your, you know, view and your lens on that. Is there like a starter text you might recommend I?

Will recommend some things in the notes cuz I think you know it's like it's. You've got a lot. We'll have a kit for you, a kit for all the men. I love that maybe like we can all we'll take a look. But like books and blogs and like other.

Think about we talked a little like like volunteering and I think that it is a really useful way to think about how you as a man might be able to volunteer in certain ways and participate like how you how can you leverage some of the physiological elements of manhood to to volunteer. I will give some examples for me.

I remember during the pandemic, I, I took all of my PTO and on Fridays at 1:00, I would take off and go work at a food bank because during the pandemic, if you remember, no one was going into these spaces because you were afraid of being near like a homeless person that spent all time outside. And so the idea that I could use my body and lift heavy bags up and down, walking up stairs or breaking down boxes because that's physically something that I had.

But I also, I was alone because when I went home, there wasn't anyone to, you know, have dinner with or there wasn't anyone that was going to be on the other side of that table. But it was a way for me to feel deeply connected to my community and be of service. I think that finding service is a way to find purpose. And I think a lot of men are often lacking is a sense of purpose. And that is a way to actually really connect your sense of man, manliness and manhood to that.

So maybe it's like men who are part of the male loneliness epidemic feel purposeless and they need to find a service or a way to dedicate their time and energy to, but should be very, very intentional and careful about what that service is and if it actually is of service to our community and progressing the good of the world. I agree. I think that these men, in a lot of ways, are ripe for

exploitation. And so if we embrace that, then we will enter into that with a lot more care and a lot more capacity to say, hey, you know what, you can be a victim. And so it's actually important for me to intervene in that potential victimization. I don't think they love hearing that though, like you like, so I'm like, hey, come volunteer with me on Saturdays for reading for kids. Reading to young elementary school kids.

This is a A cause worth investing in and finding purpose in. Yeah, I mean, and, and once again, maybe it is in trying to find ways that are particularly quote UN quote manly. I think that group therapy is a great opportunity to escape the loneliness. I mean, the boys are spending time having AI girlfriends where they are talking to the system that is sycophantic by nature, right. And so being able to say, look, let's actually go out and commiserate together for a

moment. And maybe not as a way to pile on women, but to really access this in a way that is really community based. I think what you all are doing is a form of group therapy, right, With between sisters, but hopefully also with an audience. And so I think that there's something that we all have a responsibility to, which is to open up our doors and our and our minds to these ideas of, of where we can do better. Yeah, I love that.

And So what can women or society be doing specifically to help out? Women are perfect. They can. Do the wrong and again his his Instagram handle is yes. Yes, yes. What can women do? I think that women can challenge their partners to have a more diverse emotional portfolio. So I think that where and I think that's something that exists independent of whether or not that relationship survives.

The idea that men often times are really leaning on women to help them actually feel a sense of connection and feel a sense of purpose is both disappointing and also it is a kind of doom loop in its own right. Because if it doesn't work out or if you're not available, I think that that's a really important to go to and say like, hey, like my responsibility is to both challenge you and to let you know that you have the capacity for this thing to be a very interconnected person.

In that way. I think it's also where women can safely it's always the optimal thing is to be able to create friendships with men and to be visible about the fact that there's a lot of utility in non sexual, non performative

relationships. That give men the space and the opportunity to understand what women are thinking and why their lives and why their experiences are just as hard as the guys on the other side, who often times feel as though they're dealing with something completely in silence. I think like bringing it back to the beginning of the episode and kind of why we decided to tackle this topic is that our thesis is that, you know, the male loneliness epidemic is not just

a problem for men, right? It's a problem for women. It's a problem for all of society. It's something that we can all contribute to in a positive way. So I think, like Cherie, what are some of your takeaways from this episode? Yeah. I think Ron in in speaking with you and hearing more about your points, I've gained a new maybe appreciation or empathy for the men who are kind of like brought into who are maybe opting in, but also like kind of victim of this situation.

And I think as we talked about before, like empathy is not a finite resource. I think in order to make progress on this problem, like we have to feel deep empathy. And I think it's actually really sad, Like the stats we read in the beginning of like male loneliness, men feeling disconnected, men feeling like they don't have like a close person in their life. Like that's actually deeply, deeply sad. And it's not like I'm wishing that upon anyone. Like I don't think women should

feel that loneliness. I don't think men should feel that loneliness. So I think it is empathy, learning to have that empathy so we can make progress.

I mean, one thing I'm proud of like us for doing is even just having this conversation, right? It's like that's the idea of you can't progress on a problem and try to move towards the solution unless you name the problem and then you discuss it and then you put it out there in the world. So like I'm proud of us for tackling what is actually like a pretty complex topic to to talk through. And again, we have never done

this before. So we are really in my mind, we're like really putting, putting ourselves out there in a big way. And like I've never done this before. So like we would love to know what you guys think, right? Like the reason we're doing this is because we want to invite this dialogue. We want to hear what you guys are are thinking and your reactions. Do you? Agree. Do you disagree? Yeah, yeah. I mean, there are a lot of thoughts that we put out there, yeah.

And I guess I'll, I'll finish up on saying that like, I loved your suggestion, Ron, about like what we can do about this male loneliness epidemic for me, like building deeper relationships with the men in my life and just talking more about this. Like, are you lonely? Like, how is it going in the dating world? Like I think often times men are not invited to have those conversations and can feel like it's a very like insular problem. They don't have anyone else to tell.

Like, are they going through therapy? Is it stigmatized? Like I'm thinking about the male friendships I have in my life that are platonic. And I want to invite more of those conversations because I think they are open to talking about it and making sure that they feel like there is a place to speak on it. I hope that people maybe after leaving this, feel less shame about these ideas and these moments of loneliness.

That it is both a reality and that it is also something that can be navigated and like moved through. That it is, you know, something that is not a permanent fixture of life, is not immutable. You can absolutely extend and exist beyond that. I think the thing that I would love to also like kind of leave people with is just the idea that that there are no silver bullets, but there are Silver Linings. And what I mean by that is that

there are no quick fixes. There is no singular one thing that can be sold to you today or tomorrow or in between the ad break. And in knowing that you might be willing to invest in more structural solutions, that if we escape the idea of alienation or loneliness and talk about it as alienation, we are more willing to actually think about and own the process of progress and how we all get to play a part in that. Wow. Thank you. I mean, I think we should just leave it at that. Awesome.

Thank you, Ron. Thank you so much. This. Is incredible and thank you guys Tiger fam for tuning in. We'll see you next time bye. Please double check that you're subscribed to Tiger Sisters on YouTube and following Tiger Sisters Podcast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Subscribing and following are completely free and are genuinely so important for the survival of Tiger Sisters. It helps us keep making the show, improving it and growing it so we can reach and help more

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