welcome to tickets to Travel, the Business of Travel Experiences. I'm your host, Mario Bwin, and today. We have my good friend Faisel, Faisal Sharif, welcome to the pod. Thank you. Great to be here. , We worked together at this place called Pollen, a few years back. Can you tell me a little bit about your experience at Pollen and , what you did and what brought you to the place that the things that you're doing now?
Yeah, absolutely. , So yeah, Poland was a really interesting experience. I think it was very bittersweet for many of us because it was probably the role that brought out my passions in a career like no other role has ever done before. And what I mean by that is my background is in very like corporate consulting.
So I started off at the big four, was working on, , growth strategy work, transactional work for a bunch of different clients. And then in the midst of COVID, I had this travel and events company contact me on LinkedIn. And honestly, initially I thought it was like a, a fraud message. I, I did not believe it for, for one second.
But then I looked into the company and it seemed relatively legit. Went through the interview process, met some really, really interesting people. And, you know, this business was all about travel and events and, , offering experiences, um, in a field that, for me, from a personal perspective, I really, really love.
Um, I love sports. I love music, I love travel. And it was kind of the combination of all, probably with a bit more of a focus on music and I got headhunted to join the strategy team. Um, so essentially what that meant was, like in all of my other roles, just mapping out growth strategies for the business.
So new revenue opportunities for the future, whether that was new product development, new markets to look into, or doing a review on commercials, like pricing strategy for example. And then the other element of it was really more of a, you know, supporting a GM type role. So I was working with the GM of the college business out in the us.
And again, this was a completely new world to me, but one that was extremely exciting. I'm just chuckling because it, it's like your first, you guys don't really do spring break in, in the UK at all.
Not at all. I, I had no idea what any of this stuff was. Like a Greek system. I was like, what in the world is this? That, that's why I'm laughing. And then of all people you get introduced to, like Zach and Bo and all these different guys who've been, who are literally the kings of Spring break. Yeah. It's, it's absolutely insane. I think, um, the thing with that market is if you get a foothold with the, the Greek system, with the fraternities and the sororities, then you are basically in for years to come.
As long as you're providing good, a good like product, a good service, then, then you're good. I went through this whole, learning process of how that business worked because it's not a traditional, , travel, type of business because of the way they, one, they contract the groups with the hotels, but they also contract the event space because what I say to a lot of people is any kid in college could go to Cancun.
Right. Like there's nothing stopping them from doing a Expedia package and going down to, to Cancun for sure. The differentiator here is that you have literal influencers on these campuses who are creating the cool thing to do in Cancun, and that's where the entertainment piece that you were talking about comes in, is that not only are you contracting the group to come down to a hotel or a beach, but you're also throwing a party.
So it's a like a VIP party with amazing DJs. I think even when I first started, it was like Migos and they were talk, all these different rap groups were coming down and that was the premise, right? Was to create these destination festivals at Pollen for people who had graduated past the spring break.
I was headhunted as well and , I worked for Expedia and TripAdvisor and so I think, , that the brothers said, look at these logos, man, let's grab this guy. People are gonna give us more money. But the real, the reality f is that I hadn't worked in group travel before.
Yep. It wasn't hard, but it, what I found was that having my experience and then being able to see how that sort of traditionally worked Yep. And putting in the right processes, in the right reporting to scale. It was very helpful. And the other thing is that no one else was doing it. They, no one did it at that level of, uh, insanity.
Because, we must have done, at any given time, there were probably 20 or 30 parties or festivals or trips that were being planned. Right. Was that your experience too? Yeah, absolutely. I, I think what you alluded to there is really interesting, like the whole concept of like the group travel. So, funny enough, this division was actually called like the large group division, which initially I was like, what in the world does this mean?
And then. If someone finally explained it to me was that this college segment, they travel in very large groups, so you target the ambassadors on the campus. So you know, the, the cool kids on campus who are in the know about everything and can gather, , all their friends together for a great trip.
And then when it came to the actual, you know, putting these events together, I think that's where we obviously worked quite closely together. Yep. Um, but you know, from, from a very kind of surface level, it seems quite simple, but then you get into the detail of it, which is these groups travel very differently.
E even within the same universities, right? So some may travel with groups of 30 or 40, for example. Some may be more aligned to their sports associations that they are a part of. Some may wish to, have quad rooms, for example. Or then you have like the VIP offering. So there's so many nuances within the segment.
And then you also have the add-on side of things. The focus is obviously on the actual logistics of the event. So getting them there. Getting the hotel sorted out, putting on the actual experience itself, which is the entertainment factor, right? So as you mentioned, the DJs, the talent, whatever it might be.
But then the really exciting bit that I came in to help drive a lot was the additional revenue opportunities. So we're talking add-ons here. This could be anything from , boat trips to, I think it was Elam Mo Harris off the coast of Cancun, for example. Again, I'm an expert on this field now in all these random areas in Mexico, which to be honest with you, I don't think anyone in London knows about, but it is quite great to be a part of.
Very specialized knowledge, but you're right, it was, 'cause that was the first time I was, experiencing like the quad rooms, right? Because you have to have a quad, but you also have to be able to, for the hotel's perspective, provide names. Yep. And so that was always a challenge that we would try to figure out, because you know, in college you don't know who you're actually going to be bunking with because you're booking these out, what, you know, six to nine months in advance.
And so. You could be with your girlfriend or your boyfriend or whoever it is. Yep. But then you don't know if they're gonna be together. So like there was always, that's a lot of time fial. Right? Well, absolutely. Especially in college. Especially in college. So you would, we would have to go back and forth with the team to try to like figure out what the rooming list would look like.
Yeah. And then on top of that, they would jam more people in there. They would try to jam more people in there. And because of the reputation of these type of groups, we would take all the shrapnel, right? Like, we know you guys are jamming in more kids and this and that. And it's like, well, you know, and so that became the thing.
But one thing I always respected about working with you, Faisal, is that. Because it was blocking and tackling, like the way that they traditionally did these type of groups. You brought in this level of, analysis and data and detail. And so what were some of the, the metrics that you used to sort of formulate the strategy of how we were gonna approach one, contracting the hotels, but also just running the p and ls for each one of these anyway?
So I think if you look at the commercials that we put together, so we had these p and l templates that we leveraged from day one, but I think if you speak to anyone on the team, like they were very basics. You'd have to nuance it for each event quite heavily. And those p and Ls, the, the major cost of these experiences was the hotel, right?
Because this is, , if you're looking at a thousand dollars package for example, anything between 40 to 50% of that from a cost perspective is probably gonna be the hotel. So those commercials really made a difference. , When you take into account all the different dynamics, so the number of people per room, and then you look at the additional charges, so you have additional taxes for certain states, for example.
And then there's all these like different nuances to take into account and you are like working off this Excel spreadsheet on like a continuous basis, trying to be like, we're trying to hit these margins, but if this hotel is charging us 5% extra, we're gonna have to try and cut back in this area. Or this might mean that the discount strategy that we have for this when we go on sale might have to change from this to that, whatever it may be.
So really interesting kind of to kind of look at those commercials and those dynamics. Um, but of course, aside from the hotel, you also have the entertainment side of things as well. And I think this is where it got really interesting, right? So I think the beauty of what we had for the college market was that we had a relatively good like kind of analysis on the type of numbers that we were expecting, which meant that we could probably pre-contract certain venues for a, for a certain size.
And potentially even, , potential artists as well, relatively well in advance. And a lot of these kids would be putting down deposits, nine, 10 months in advance of the trip, which gave us enough time to be able to plan some of that stuff. I think where it gets tricky is where things move.
So if a large group then decides they want to go to a different destination, for example, or maybe their school dates change slightly, then it's really being able to deal with that in a very dynamic way that, you know, obviously from a commercial perspective, you're still hitting your margins and not losing out on any one area, but still providing an experience that the rest of the kids are still gonna thorough, enjoy as well.
So all these different dynamics at play. Yeah, no, the dynamics. 'cause also what people don't understand, like you're traveling, let's call it 30,000 kids in the month of March, but they're different schools with different weeks. And so each week, 1, 2, 3, 4, and then there's multiple properties that we're contracting as well.
So it's like a giant game of Tetris, um, and, you know, suntan o Oil and parties and god knows what else is happening at each one of this, at one of these venues. But, rest assured, I, I respected the process of modernizing, group, , spring break travel in the way that all of us sort of worked on at, at Pollen, which then, , obviously the company, imploded a bit.
But I do provide a lot of credit to the brothers and the teams there because. Look at this man we're talking right now. And it really expanded my network as a travel professional into the entertainment side, but also from a consulting side. , And a, , applying the same sort of OTA metrics to what a traditional travel or tour operator would do.
And then layering in this entertainment bit a live ev events bit is very, very unique. And I think we were all building the plane while it was flying, as , people say. Absolutely. And so definitely a unique time that I think you and I shared and, , we'll probably continue to, to chat more about it, , as years come because we know the same people.
But for sure you've now for all intents and purposes, graduated into your own consultancy and you help brands and, , I think, , events and o other teams and leagues as such to. Build out strategies around sponsorship and other things. Can you tell me a little bit about what you do now?
. So I also had the pleasure of working on some brand sponsorships whilst I was at Pollen as well. Ah, so it was a slightly like smaller part of my role, but one that kind of introduced me to the whole world of brands and partnerships and the commercial side of things. So essentially what I've done is I've leveraged that information and that kind of knowledge and experience to really try to help brands mostly in Europe, across the Middle East as well.
We are trying to unlock the value from a commercial perspective of this whole world of brand sponsorships when it comes to events. And I've had quite a strong focus on sports more specifically. So I've worked with a couple of different clients across, sports data within sporting teams, sporting leagues as well.
We actually did an event for the, , guitar World Cup as well. It was like, like a curated event for ex athletes where, , fans or super fans would essentially attend. And I basically did the commercial and strategy work for that as well. , But yeah, it's been a really interesting ride.
And I think one thing that I've definitely noticed is what you alluded to, the whole concept of trying to professionalize things and trying to leverage data and strategic thinking. There are so many opportunities on the back of that, right? So I think traditionally you'll have had brand sponsorships that will literally be like, okay, we want to be involved in this event because it seems like a cool event.
We'll put X amount of money towards it. And yeah, we'll probably see like an increase in sales, but it probably wasn't more sophisticated that than that by too much of a degree. . Whereas now it's more of a throw, throw the leaf in the air and see where the wind blows and correct. We're gonna put all this money into it and it sounds like it's gonna work, but there's probably no real way to measure the ROI Correct.
On set event. Absolutely. , Whereas now obviously I think with a combination of different factors, the rise of digitization, the importance of. , Data more, more generally. And I think the macroeconomic environment as well, like brands are really trying to understand what the ROI is on some of these sponsorships.
Right. And I think a really, really interesting example is with Spotify. So Spotify have a brand partnership with FFC Barcelona and essentially through that they have a, an agreement to have renamed the stadium. So it's now called Spotify Camp New. They have the branding on the jersey as well, and a few other assets too.
And you probably saw this recently with like the Travis Scott, um, kind of collaboration with the, with the jersey, which went absolutely insane. Right. Absolutely insane. And my son wants one, like I can't pay $5,000 for a limited edition. I mean, I can, I can probably get you on, but it'll probably be like three and a half thousand.
Okay. Well, I mean, but then he'll never know about it. 'cause I'll just resell that, um, eBay, but Oh, so you, you were involved in this whole structure of the sponsorship. So, so I, I did some initial work, , to help outline some of the thinking and the strategic analysis behind, , some of these type of deals.
. Okay. And, , the interesting thing with this one was that Spotify came into this thinking that they'd really be able to leverage the Barcelona fan base or the Barcelona FC fan base. I think they have 350 or 400 million fans across the globe, , official or whatever it may be. Yeah.
And essentially that they had this massive database, which they thought, okay, we can send out, , our kind of Spotify playlist or branding or leverage that kind of broadcast list to really enhance our commercials through this sponsorship deal, essentially. But what they found out was that actually only about 1% of this fan base had actually registered their personal information with FC Barcelona.
Wow. So the 99%, they had no way of actually contacting them because there were no emails, there were no phone numbers. It was essentially just a name, which is obviously no use whatsoever. And it massively, massively changed the commercials of the deal. , I think it got reduced to about 250 million euros or so.
But I mean, the numbers were way, way higher than that initially. In terms of the initial talks. That's fascinating. That, but that's an important thing to note, right? For anybody who's listening, , the data is really king for sure. And having the, the email address sim as simple as that's very hard to do, but to really provide value in that sponsorship or, or how you're going to activate a partnership of that means you really have to have all these different pieces, of the equation so that you, a person like yourself, ICE, again, can create the formula,
To make sure that this is a repeatable, scalable type of partnership. You know, you, you mentioned something and you kind of glossed over it, but we gotta go back to Qatar man because sure. We, um, I, uh, you know, we, we do a piece about super fans Okay. In general, and, 'cause I was always fascinated that no one ever covered how someone would journey.
And , you or yourself are a super fan. You're like, Mario, I'll see you at the World Cup next year. But, , no. , Like a Taylor Swift fan, we had Taylor Swift fans who much cheaper to go to Scotland than to go to Miami Right. Or to New York. And so they make it a travel experience. They go and they experience Taylor Swift.
They go to see the show, they go see the destination. And , it's , these live events or these artists or entities drive this travel demand. And the benefit is the destination, , the restaurants, the hotels, the airfare around it. And so. You mentioned Qatar, which obviously first of all, people thought it was a little odd it was gonna be, they had to change the dates 'cause in the middle of the desert, which know we could get into all the FIFA stuff, but we, , but from a super fan perspective, how did you guys approach this and what was the event like?
What did you guys create? Yeah, absolutely. So I guess, , to give you a bit of background to the whole super fan label for myself, , yeah. I've actually been to , the last three World Cups. So we, Brazil, Russia, and Qatar and obviously the US Mexico, Canada's on kind of on the plans for next year as well.
Alright, we're, so we're gonna have a separate podcast you just talking about that after we do this, but Okay, I got it. So I had a bit of experience in terms of the planning side of things, and I think,, with my friends, , with my group of friends, I'm always known as like the planner. So of course leveraging my strategic, , expertise.
But for me it's like a passion. I love to do this, to be able to find like really good deals at really good hotels. Or whatever it may be. So it is actually quite funny. I, we got quite lucky with this one because , I had a buddy of mine whose sister lives out in, in Doha, in Qatar. Ah, so I think probably about a year and a half in advance.
I was literally like, look, we are coming during the knockout stage, you are reserving your spare rooms for us and there is no one else do let me tell you how this is gonna happen. Correct, exactly. But probably more dramatically than that. Yeah, absolutely. Sure. Maybe, , bribing her with a few Joe Malone gifts from London.
There you go. There you go. So yeah, I got it. We had the accommodation sorted, which was, , for this well cut really, really like lucky for us because the accommodation for, for Qatar was extremely difficult. It's a really small country. I think you can literally drive from one end to the other within like an hour, hour and a half, which is insane.
. So a lot of people were actually staying in nearby places like Dubai for example, or, or other kind of areas in the GCC and then flying in for the games because the accommodation was extremely difficult. Cool. So yeah, so we had that out the way we did the flights and then it was really trying to figure out the ticketing.
. And this one was an interesting one because , the previous two World Cups, I actually was, I had no issue getting tickets whatsoever, which is quite surprising because you would expect for Brazil, like that was obviously an incredible World Cup. Brazil's like the home of football, the demand is the charts.
But we got really lucky. We got some incredible seats, some incredible tickets really far in advance. I was able to plan that like probably a year in advance. Wow. So with this one, we had everything lined up in terms of the accommodation. We kind of knew the flights that we were gonna take. So, you know, we were close to booking them, but we were like, look, let's just sort out the tickets first and then we'll book them and the initial round of the, the ballot.
So another thing about me, I don't like to pay above face value, and if I do, it won't be too much more beyond it is just a thing that I have. Yeah. Unless it's like an event that I'm like absolutely dying to go to and if there's no way to get tickets whatsoever, then okay. Then I may consider it.
So yeah, the initial ballot, nothing, we, I got seven or eight different people to apply, got absolutely zero tickets and I was like shocked. I was like, this is crazy. Like this has never happened to me before. . Did the same for the second round of the ballot again, no tickets. And I was like, at this point, whoa, is this World Cup even gonna happen for us?
, I'm a little bit confused here. And then an interesting thing happened because I think there was some confusion with kind of FIFA , and the demand for tickets versus what they had sold. And I think it was like March time, and I think the World Cup was in November, December, if I'm not mistaken.
That's right. And I suddenly get an email saying, oh, we have , a first come first round that we're putting on , for fans to be able to purchase tickets. And I just remember being in the middle of my workday thinking, okay, this is interesting. , When is this gonna be? And it was for like two days time.
I was like, okay, that doesn't give much time to plan, but Sure. Let me log on and see if I can get anything. And I managed to be able to get three different games. And , we got one of the last 16 games, we got the quarterfinals, two of them, one of which was the England France game, which was great.
Well, great for French fans, maybe not great for, for US England. And then probably one of the games of the tournament, which was the Argentina, Netherlands game, which was absolutely insane. So yeah, we got really lucky with the tickets. , They were, , increasingly obviously as the years progress, the prices go up and I hear that for the US won next year, it's gonna be absolutely insane pricing.
So that's something obviously to take into account, but I guess for me, like the World Cup is something that I really try and prioritize out of any events to attend. It's, , every four years. So I'll try my , best for, for next time, for next year to make it as well. Oh, I have a feeling , you'd be here, you might be staying in this office right here.
I, Mario, we've not had, nah, I know a couple hotels. We, we, we could, we could sort something out, man. No, that's, that's amazing. I appreciate you qualifying it. So, couple questions, you know Sure. Obviously you had the accommodation set up. So give the audience just a little bit of idea of what the ticket pricing looked like in Qatar.
Yep. And, , and if you were to, from what you've heard, , what do you think the percentage increase would be here four years later? , What was the, , the budget you were working with? Yeah, absolutely. So I guess promoted prior World Cups, , maybe the first step is to think about the way that I strategically view the pricing.
Yeah. So usually like the group stage is. It's a bit hit and miss. You're not too sure what games you're gonna get. They might be a little bit boring. It might be the games that really don't matter too much. So I try and avoid the group stages and I try and go for the initial knockouts, which are usually the last 16 and the quarter finals.
Right? I believe for this World Cup there's gonna be an additional round of 32 as well. And I do that in terms of excitement for the football, but also from a pricing perspective as well. You'll notice that beyond the quarter finals, if you're looking at semi-finals, I mean the price literally doubles for, for each game, and it's like impossible to get decent seats as well.
So I think for the Qatar World Cup, if I'm not mistaken, I think on average the price was around 250 pounds per ticket. Okay. Um, and that was, that wasn't for the lowest or the highest. It's probably like a mid category type ticket as well. And then , where was that seated in the stadium? So, so the, the last 16 game that we had, I think we, we essentially paid the same price, but we had much better seats for that game.
And then for the, so I think that was like literally row 10 lower tier seats, like really, really good seats. Oh wow. Okay. For sure. But then the course of finals, it was more about availability. We just weren't able to get better seats. So we got like upper tier, probably like mid row or so and, and paid the same kind of price as well.
So it was a little bit high, but Oh, I see. But to be at those games, like that's what you'd expect, right. But I think the way that it was working for that World Cup was each stage that went on, the prices were basically doubling per stage. So the last 16 was pretty much half the price for the same category than it would've been for like the quarter finals, for example.
So essentially you start off, call it $300 as a USD. Yep. , Very good seats, but then as the rounds went on, 600 for the same seat, 900 for the next seat, that kind of thing. Something like that. Yeah. So they just keep Got it. Absolutely. And I guess for the World Cup next year, it's an interesting one because you have the, the FIFA Club World Cup happening.
In the next week or, right. Yeah. No one knows about it, but it's happening. I think only my listeners know about it because I've been talking about it. But yeah, it's, they haven't done a whole lot of marketing around it. It's, they haven't. Right. And it's an interesting one because obviously, you know, the actual International World Cup next year is, you know, world renowned.
That's something people know about, , everyone knows about that one. Yeah. Whereas the FIFA Club one is a relatively new format of the tournament. , And funny enough, I was actually in Saudi Arabia. I, I went to watch the final of one of the FIFA Club World Cups. I think it was back in 2024, if I'm not mistaken.
No, 2023, sorry. December, 2023. And it was in the final, it was the final, correct. It was Manchester sissy versus I think it was ary, the Brazilian team. Oh, wow. And, and talking about pricing. By the way, I don't think I've ever got tickets for a game so cheap in my life. . So I happened to be in Saudi with my parents at the time.
And I was like, to my dad, oh, by the way, the last night that went there, there's actually this game happening. And he's , he's always down for football. But my mom was like, you know what, I'll just chill in the hotel. Like I'll have a bath. I'll take it. I'll take it easy. That evening. It was cool. Yeah.
But the tickets, I think we had like literally like halfway line lower tier. We were like row five or row six, so like incredible Cs. And I remember paying like 40 pounds and I was like, this is insane. , Like I can't believe I'm paying 40 pounds for this. Like, I mean, just, just to go see man City alone for sure.
That's like, right. Like that, that's an amazing deal. That's crazy. Definitely. It's like super, super cheap. , But yeah, so, so that format was, um, one that's been kind of reinvigorated through this whole, you know, wider tournament. And the first time they're having it is in the US in the next couple of weeks essentially.
, And I've been told that , the ticket sales have not really been that great. I think the pricing was, I actually had a look into this, so I wasn't really planning to come for the FIFA Club World Cup because. First of all, my team arsenal's not in it first and foremost, but, but I guess beyond that, it's like I'm probably gonna come for the World Cup next year anyway.
So do I really wanna come to an event that's probably gonna be a bit inferior? Like I don't know if, if I had got really good seats and they were a decent price and I had the time to do it, I probably would, but it just didn't work out. . But yeah, I've been told that the tickets, like even my dad sent me an article this morning actually saying that I think they've slashed the prices to 16% of the original face value, because I remember seeing tickets and it was like into Miami versus like L Athlete and Egyptian team, for example.
And the tickets were like $350. And I'm like, what? Yeah, this is crazy. There's like one star on the pitch, which is Lionel messy, but like apart from that, like the quality of the football's probably not gonna be that great. Yeah, it's gonna be like ten one, right? Like yeah. I mean, look, I think the latter stage is cool.
It could get really exciting. And there are some great teams that absolutely, , you have like PSG, real Madrid, a few others as well. But the pricing just seemed like really off to me and I think. Here in Europe. And it is funny actually, I feel like we're going through a phase right now with concert tickets.
So traditionally it's always been a lot cheaper in Europe to attend concerts. And I remember talking to a lot of the guys at Pollen, , Alex and I, who were both massive Drake fans and we would always compare like how much we'd be paying to go see a Drake concert. For him it was like $400 and for me it was like maybe 80 pounds, for example.
. Which is in Incre incredible. , But this year for some reason, like the constant tickets have become so much more expensive in Europe. And I'll give a few examples. So it's actually very timely. I literally just picked up Drake tickets yesterday. He's just announced, um, a UK tour to supplement his dates at the wireless festival as well.
Okay. And people are going crazy over this whole ticket ma, master surge pricing and like how extremely extortion, it's become that dynamic pricing. Right? Dynamic pricing. Exactly. Like I got super lucky, I think I picked up tickets for about 150 pounds each, which is still a little bit pricey, but it's not, it's nothing too crazy.
Right. Yeah. But I, I had, I saw someone on TikTok, they posted for like, seats that were further back than where I am, and they were being quoted like 350 pounds a ticket for the same night, the same venue. And I was like, this is, this is insane. Yeah. It's, it's interesting. I speak to a lot of, ticket resellers or ticket brokers, and you have this constant sort of back and forth with Ticketmaster Yep.
And these brokers, because Ticketmaster is saying, Hey, we're fan first. We're artists first, but they're also trying to make sure they're the only ones who sell the tickets. . And so there's some legislation in New York and other places where they're proposing a cap on what resale tickets could look like.
Which of course doesn't really provide, , a lot of flexibility to, to the brokers themselves. Sure. And so the brokers, their argument about dynamic pricing is that it would be really cool if you knew, and as a consultant and an an analyst like yourself, keisel you, you'll understand this, is that you don't really know.
What the available inventory is in the stadium. Yeah. That would then deplete, . If sales were all happening Yep. Then the, that inventory shrinks the price goes up. Yep. Right. That makes complete sense. Sure. But in this case, you don't know how many available tickets are one being held back by the Artisan Promoter, I'm sure.
So you don't know what the pool is currently for Sure. And then once the sale comes on, you don't know how many people are buying at any given time. And so maybe that's a product change that Ticket Master take a look at. It's , hey, here's the available tickets and here's how it is and here's how you know things are going up.
Yeah. That would be more transparent. But then you still have the original sort of broker argument in that artists and promoters and the venue will hold back a set of tickets for their own clients or for their own, let's say pre-sale for Amex, customers and such. Yeah. And . That fluctuation in the actual sort of emotional moment of being a fan and trying to access those tickets Yeah.
Is not very transparent. So on either side of it, whether you're a Ticketmaster Live Nation person, or if you're a broker, no one can get any clarity as to what the right thing to do. Absolutely. And the fans really only get swayed by, if Taylor Swift says, you know what, I'm a Ticketmaster person, which she's not really.
Yeah. , Or if it's, , another kind of broker site or something saying, Hey, we have exclusivity. So they're constantly going back and forth. , At the end of the day, the fans, whether they know it or not, they're the ones who are being taken advantage of because the pricing is just gonna continuously go up.
So it's interesting that you say that in the UK for Drake, because, you were only paying, , $80 or 80 pounds previously. Yeah. And so you've seen this pronounced difference. Same area, same stadium, same, , same venue. And it's now changed so much. So one of, one of the things I say, and Alex, Alex and I have talk, he'll definitely listen to this so we'll talk, is that I think that there's just a shortage of supply coming through the pipeline.
Meaning there aren't that many tours coming up. Yeah. And so what, what happens is that there are only so many tailors, Beyonces and Drakes. Yeah. Yeah. And so until they ramp up the other artists who can get to the Kendrick and CSA who are in that realm right now. Yep. , You have to plan hedge your bets that you gotta charge this amount because whether they're gonna tour again is something else.
Another thing we talk about is like a lot of those arts will go to Las Vegas and have residencies. Sure. And that changes the game as well for them from a touring perspective. But then you don't really have as many, , new artists up and coming who can hold a stadium tour and then at the top of the funnel.
Billy Joel's not doing very well. The Rolling Stones aren't gonna be able to do it , at the Eagles. , There's all these big names who are essentially aging out. Yeah. So the pipeline of content is getting lighter, at least in this transition to, to your point, like there's a transition period where they're like, a couple years ago we could get 80 bucks for, but now we have to get, , 150 and.
Hopefully the content that Drake has put out. I'm not a Drake fan, which I tell Alex all the time. You are not. What? Well, I'm old dude. I thought you were. Oh, see, here we go. Here we go. No, I'm a cool guy. I'm just not a huge Drake fan. He's got a couple hits. I get it. Okay. Okay. But we'll take that. I'm also 50 years old fi, so, you know, I'm a, I'm a Ray.
I actually didn't realize that. Wow. Yeah, yeah, man. So Mario, when they say incredibly well your age, that's all I can say. I appreciate that. See, I am a cool guy. I'm telling you. But when you start to look at the hip, you look at hiphop, 50 years of hip hop. I was right. I answered, I answered this question for my son last night. He's , dad, when did you start listening to hip hop? I'm like, 1985, bro.
And he's , he was like, whoa. So what was the first album? I was like, I, I think it was, I'm bad. LL Cool JI was rocking and. Licensed to Ill, Beastie Boys. Nice. And, and he was like, his mind was blown. So you actually have seen the, I'm like, yeah, I have. So forgive me guys if I'm not a huge Drake fan, because he's just not my style.
I'm a boom bab, straight ahead hip hop guy, but either way we digress. Yeah, I feel like , that's might be one of the things that are happening is that they have to charge more. And also, , everyone likes money and so that, that whole messaging of, , the artists are gonna reinvest that extra money into the next experience.
Yeah. Little questionable. That's another argument. Absolutely. , And it's funny, I think there's probably , a few different themes that are happening, right? So I think , like I've been coming to the US , for decades. I have family out there, I have friends out there, and it's always interesting to see for events.
Like I remember even for sports, for the NBA, for example. Every row that you want to go forward for a game, you're paying extra. Which for us in the UK and London, or in Europe more generally is like an unheard of concept. If you're going to a football match and you're paying face value, whether you are the first row or like the last row, the differential really isn't that high and it's based mostly on like blocks or areas or tier or whatever it may be.
And I think some of that kind of American commercialization, which from a commercial perspective makes sense, right? Like if you have a, sure, if you have an artist like Drake, why would you not charge that? Because from a ticket master perspective, StubHub, you're gonna have crazy prices on there. I think it's just a cultural thing where if a, a fan sees that a face value from Ticketmaster is super high, they're gonna be really, really upset at the moment.
But they'll be, they'll happily go on StubHub and probably pay like 10 times and be like, yeah, yeah, it's StubHub. That's what I expect. So I think some of that is probably a bit of a cultural shift that may take a little bit of time, and I. As I mentioned, from a strategic commercial perspective, you can understand the rationale for it, right?
Yeah. No, , and also, culturally, , there, there are different rules for resale 'cause of what you've said in the uk, France, and I believe Germany as well. Like, you have to package it because you still have to, you could only sell it for the face value to, to your point. Yeah. So there has to be, if you're gonna be a reseller of it, you have to put in a t-shirt Yeah.
Or travel, or something else to, or I think, , the famous one is dinner. Sure. I had a, I had someone come on the show and they're like, they went to a Liverpool game. Yeah. And they picked up their tickets at a pub where it included dinner. , Okay. All right. So that guy owned the tickets, obviously he's been with the club for decades, and so he added a dinner, which is, , whatever his margin is.
Yeah. But essentially it's, , bangers and mash, whatever, right. So, absolutely, absolutely. So I think culturally , it's different. So like when they do go to a StubHub or a reseller. Yeah. , They're accepting the fact Sure. That they were not able to be on the onset. 'cause a lot of times, you have to be on the, on sale.
Yeah. And that's where they get to a lot of problems. So the, after the aftermarket of that, it's really the exchange in time. 'cause most people will take out entire day to get access to those tickets. But you're like, Hey, you know what, I'll just pick 'em up on Steph up and they're doing me a service.
Because from a broker perspective, they also sit there and they're like, you're trying to regulate on the ticket pricing on the ticket master side. But at the end of the day, they bought the ticket. Yep. So if you buy a ticket, vital, and you should be able to do whatever you want with that ticket, essentially.
If you wanna give it away for free to your cousin, or if you wanna, , put it on another resale site , and get a margin mm-hmm. Someone pays it, they pay it. And so I think there's a lot of, back and forth around. , Artist first, fan first versus what the actual service of having a broker or a another site like that to provide it.
Because a lot of those people can't sit there and deal with the dynamic pricing that, that they do on an on sale. But anyway, I think, yeah, see, we could talk about this stuff all day long. This is , this is it. , so how do the most successful sponsorships go beyond logos and signage and actually enhance the fan experience on site?
Because you've had a lot of experience doing this, and so we're taking in for sure one demand and understanding what really speaks to a particular fan, but then what does it. What goes into it from a, , a business perspective to build out the experience? I think, when you view these kind of things, and it's interesting for experiences because I think if you view it like most brands did traditionally, they would only view it from a commercial perspective, which is, what can we get out of this?
Right? Yeah. So they wouldn't really think about the long-term effect on their brand or the long-term relationship with the fan, for example, or really the experience and embedding themselves within the experience. And I think that's really where the magic happens. And it's a concept that we discussed when we were at Pollen as well.
, We would work with a few external brand agencies, for example. Yes. And we were, and I remember , the concept was always, or the brief was always, look, we're not just trying to get money outta this. We're really trying to enhance the experience. What is the value add for the fan, which is gonna make this a truly memorable experience.
And I think there was a framework that we kind of used to work with, and I've kind of adapted it slightly for some of the work that I've done for other clients. But essentially I, I package it up as four different areas. So one is like utility, the second one is like the interac of the event. .
The third aspect is digital and the fourth is emotion. So we can walk through each of these and I'll try and give you some examples to bring it to life a little bit. So from a utility perspective, it's really about offering something that is value add to the fan, that is something that's useful for them.
So an example of this, , I'm a big fan of sports. I try to go to Wimbledon every two or three years or so, and I remember a few years ago I had an offer with Amex, or it was like an exclusive with Amex, where it's if you're an Amex card holder, you get access to this lounge. You get like free strawberries and cream, which everyone at Wimbledon loves.
Of course. Of course. And if you, that's why you go. Absolutely. There we go. A few cold drinks and a few other bits as well. And if you think about it from a utility perspective, you're at Wimbledon for an entire day. You are absolutely exhausted. Sometimes you just want somewhere to just sit and chill and maybe just charge your phone, have a few cold drinks, and just have a bit of downtime.
And they really hit that on its head. Like they hit the nail on its head really well because they realize that that's exactly what a large proportion of people want. So let's just offer that as a space for people to interact with the brand, but also from a utility perspective, have something that is useful and value add to them.
So I think that's like the basic thing that you have to check off utility, whatever that may look like. Yeah. And then the second aspect is really the interactive element. So how do you then, if you get someone to a space, let's say, physical or digital. How do you then get someone to interact with your brand?
How do you create some excitement? How do you really make the experience something that's memorable within the greater sporting or music experience that you're at? For example, and this can be things like, playing games with , VR type of technologies or, , doing like certain polls for example, or votes on certain things, or like having an impact on something and maybe feeling like you are a part of the event in some way or another.
So I remember, I think it was one of the, the World Cups I was at, they had this really cool VR popup and it was like, okay, you can pretend that you're a player in the game. You can interact with the stadium, interact with the pitch, and get a better view of where you are right now. For most people going to a World Cup, it's probably their first time visiting that stadium, for example.
So they're not really too sure on the layout of the stadium or how things may be once the game starts, for example. So that was really, really cool and it really made you interact with the brand a lot more. And I think it was like a drinks brand for example. So, so they also had a popup, well popups within the interactive experience, which showed you where the nearest like drink stands were, whatever it may be.
So from their perspective, obviously extremely value add as well. And this kind of like also goes into the digital side of things as well. And I think in this whole new world, I, I say whole new world, but this has been a concept ever since I've entered the, like my career essentially. So having the digital side of things as core to your strategy and whether that's through, , socials for example, where you are able to share your experience really easily or have something really cool that you can go back and either show your friends or post digitally about it, whatever it may be.
And I'm seeing this a lot with TikTok recently, for example, so even at like B2B conferences, so I was at Web Summit in Doha back in February, which is like a really cool tech conference and they've had it in Doha since last year. And TikTok had a really cool store there where they essentially let you take really cool pictures and videos with
landmarks in Doha and you were able to capture it in real time with a really cool immersive experience. And then you were able to also post it and save it yourself, that you could then share it with your friends later. And just really being able to bring in that digital element, which again, there is value add to the fan or to the customer because they have something that they can talk about, that they can remember, that they can keep as a lasting memory and then secondary to that.
But the underlying theme is, oh, by the way, this is our brand. And I think that's a really cool way to frame it. And I think that's the way that , you strike the balance of not being too imposing whilst also offering something that people remember your brand buy. And that really leads into the last bit, the fourth element, which is emotion, right?
So next time that I remember Amex, I'll be like, oh yeah, I was at Wimbledon with my dad and we had , a seating area where we had free strawberries and cream, for example. And it creates a lasting memory that either consciously or subconsciously you really have a positive attachment to.
Yeah. The emotion piece , is big and there's just so much art and a bit of science to developing these type of activations. Sure. I think one, one thing that's interesting that many people don't understand is how much does this cost?
This is an interesting piece. Absolutely. So it really depends on the brand that you're talking to. . So if you're talking about the established brands that have large budgets, usually you don't need to prove out the ROI as much. Right. Okay. For them it's like, okay, we just wanna be involved with this.
Maybe our competitors doing it, or maybe we just wanna be, you know, sponsoring something that's a cool event. More of like, kind of the traditional element of what you'd have when it comes to brand sponsorships. Okay. And then you have like the new and upcoming brands, or the ones that probably a bit more wary of their wallets.
And for them ROI is absolutely huge. Right? Sure. And I think ROI can be in the form of different things, so. You know, from a financial perspective, obviously it's, you know, how many eyeballs, for example, are we getting on our brand or how many people are interacting with this brand and what would be the cost of each person that we're interacting with?
And it's kind of like using marketing commercials in a way where you'd normally use like a cost of acquisition, for example, if you were to put out like a paid Instagram post or whatever it may be. And you usually start off at kind of the bottoms up, , strategy level. So you will look at one individual and how much you're willing to pay for them to have a look at your brand.
And then you aggregate that up to think about, okay, we're probably gonna get this number for this event. And that's like super high level. And then obviously you get into the detail of, okay, is this the type of person that we want our event? Are we only willing to pay for certain eyeballs? , Oh wow. Okay.
So it gets that, that detailed in terms of how the , price out that, that sponsorship. Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, for, for most brands, you know, for, for them to target their specific demographic. So let's say you're a streetwear brand and you're trying to target the 18 to 25-year-old. , In London for example, that's a very, very specific profile that you're going after.
Like for you to target like a 50-year-old in the suburbs, it's probably not gonna be your target market. So you're probably not willing to even have that as part of the equation when you're talking about the commercials here. Right. So it's really trying to like narrow it down to the specifics of who you're trying to target and who you are willing to pay for as a result as well.
Got it. That makes a whole lot of sense. The more customized the audience that you're going for, the higher the value, the higher the price, in terms of that sponsorship. Yeah. So what are some really, so what are some really clean examples of this that you've seen other than the TikTok one, like maybe that's more of a, on an event activation that you've experienced since you've been to so many events, pat, like you, you're probably like walking into Wimbledon or all these other places.
It's just like, that's good. That's not great. That's, this is, you know, is there one that really sticks out that you're like, man, whoever ran this or could be one that you did? That you worked on? Yeah, so, so it's not one that I've done myself. But one that I have, funny enough, when I was a kid, I always used to like, think about these really random concepts of amalgamating different, I guess different industries together.
So sports, music, fashion, whatever it may be. Yeah. And I think like more what you're seeing in the market more recently is there are a lot of fashion brands that are getting heavily involved, especially , with sports, but especially with football as well. Yeah. And even within like sports, you'll have one that is really interesting to me is like the Jordan brand and how Jordan brand became like , the sponsor of PSG, for example.
Right. And this, this happened I think seven, eight, maybe nine years ago. And honestly when I was younger, when I was a kid, I was like designing kits and like designing different things and I was like, how cool would it be if Jordan sponsored a team? Of course it no way I was referring to as also, yeah,
it happened one way or another. Another, anyway. And I think that the really cool thing with that is, is that PSG, , identified the fact that a lot of their fan base based in Paris, more specifically, are huge fans of street wear and fashion. Yeah. They're sneakerhead, absolutely huge sneakerhead. And actually the following for basketball's quite high in France compared to the rest of Europe.
I mean, it's, it's much higher than the uk, which is why the NBA actually moved from London to Paris a few years back, which I was obviously very upset about because I used to attend the London games. I used to love it, but there's clearly a much higher demand in Paris. Rema, I mean, you Yeah, there you go.
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, there's quite a few, that I, Tony Parker back in the day. Sure. I mean, there really, there really hasn't been a UK based NBA player. Right? There was one guy, he'll be out here. There was one guy in the Chicago Bulls many years ago, but honestly, I can't even remember his name.
And I, I don't remember him being that big at the time either. Yeah, I mean, you got Boza dl, you got Wema, you've got, , there's a, there's couple new guys coming out too, so I can understand the shift and the sort of globalization of the league and, , finding a target market that's gonna align with, future goals, obviously.
So for me that, that was a really interesting sponsorship opportunity, and I think it shows you that it's not something that's been done just for short term commercial value. It's something that's really been done for a long term relationship with the fan.
Sure. What I mean by that is, , Jordan is part of Nike anyway. Nike was sponsored of the PSG traditionally. So it is not like there was anything massively, drastic when it came , to that side of things. But by bringing a basketball brand as the sponsors of a football or soccer team, that was something that had never been done before and Right.
And the Jordan brand is something that's been really synonymous with fashion, with street wear, with music, with a bunch of different things, , for many, many years. And it completely transformed things because people were suddenly seeing football in a completely different light now, which is we don't need to stick to the status quo of just having the traditional brand sponsoring a kit for the purpose of the players or fans wearing it.
This is something about creating a subculture and really being able to enhance that as well through our brand. And you'll have seen over the years, , they'll produce like the third kit for PSG and they'll be wearing all the training kits, , the main jersey, everything will be branded Jordan, but they have so many other cool concepts with it as well.
And again, the example we used previously with the Travis Scott activation recently with FC Barcelona, so that was one that I think took it a slight step further as well because Travis Scott, I think he was there , for El Classico, so the Barcelona Real Madrid game recently, if I'm not mistaken.
And they did a whole activation where they invited all these celebs from all over the world. They had this like pop-up concert. They obviously had , the Travis Scott branding on the jersey for that particular game, which was, , huge hits. And it was really about bringing this audience together to really create lasting memories and like a lasting subculture.
And this is something that, , they've done for the last few years. They've had Carol G on the kits, they've had, , Drake's OVO Owl on the kits, but this is the first time they've really unlocked the activation to make it a lot more enticing and a lot more exciting for the fan. And I think you'll see a lot more of this where you'll have brands from, , different sports, from different industries really coming in to really take advantage of the fact that sports has such a huge following, such a huge and loyal customer base, but also a customer base that has so many different interests and passions as well.
And I think that's something that is , really exciting. Yeah, , you're killing it right now, man, because I, it's exactly that. It's the. It's the alignment of, , so give it up to Travis Scott too, right? Like he's prolonged his brand and his sound, , associated , to these particular brands in sports.
, But it also ties into gathering these audiences, right? These people Yep. , To move to travel. And so , that's the other thing that I always try to tie it back to is that, , these are things that travel brands and travel sellers should understand is that you should understand who Travis Scott is.
Yep. And you should understand that , if Barcelona is targeting his fandom. , His audience, that you should be attracting those people within that destination. So if Barcelona's traveling to p Paris, or even here to the us, you should start to not just look at the kind of 50-year-old guy in the suburbs kind of fan, right?
Yeah. Like you wanna find what's gonna appeal to the younger demographics while they're in market. So whether that's you're holding a concert, a mini miniature festival, something that appeals to that sort of demographic, you could tie it all in to the brand, the sponsorship alignment to an artist, , and then of course anything that supports the travel around it within the destination.
I think , it's it, you're right, it's gonna be this movement that we all should start to look for from a business perspective to see how early you can align your brand with these other kind of bigger sponsorship deals that are happening. Because. , Did they make publicly what? That Travis Scott, , sponsorship cost?
Or is it a partnership? Like how did that happen? , I've not actually seen the numbers, but it's obviously all come about through Spotify. . So Spotify being , the major sponsors. And then what they very intelligently did was showcase an artist for like the big games every single season. So as I mentioned, they had Carol G one year, they had Drake.
Yeah. And then Travis Scott most recently. , So I, I haven't seen any, , numbers specifically. Maybe there is something, but it would be great to see that, the output of that for sure. Yeah, no, maybe, , we'll do a sidebar and , try to figure out, it could add it to the intro over the, a outro because it's pretty impressive and I'm glad this conversation has gone that way because it's very relevant.
. For sure. , One of the things, , as we start to wrap things up and we're talking to an audience , of ticketing , and travel people, I. What are some sort of helpful hints from a sponsorship or brand engagement perspective that you would say to them in terms of activating fans,, to work with them?
So I've cracked the system a little bit. So a few of the really big events that I've wanted to attend in the last few years, I've actually been able to unlock through brands and through brand sponsorships.
So what I mean by that is here in London, for example, so Marriott, or Marriott, as you guys say in the us, they like your American accent. That's great. They have this huge box at the O2 here in London. And they have a scheme where you can essentially use your points to get access to that box for certain events.
And I have rinsed that box like crazy the last couple of years, to an extent where they literally know me on a first name basis and they're like, I don't know how you are able to do this, but this is incredible. So I've seen, , Carol G 50 cent, Chris Brown, all there, incredible experience where they have access to an exclusive box that would probably cost you , over a thousand, maybe 1500 per person , in ordinary circumstances.
So first and foremost, they've given me access to something that I would normally have to pay a lot of money for. Yeah. And I'm able to do it using my points, and it's a really cool experience where I can bring a friend, we get access to, , free food, free drinks, whatever it may be. But one brand that really took that a step further was recently I actually went to go see Central Sea.
So he actually just came up to tour in the us which is extremely successful. . Yeah, , he was in London prior to that, obviously, , London is its hometown. So that was like , the trademark. Concert, if you will. . And Qatar Airways a few years back, bought three or four of the boxes at the O2 and knocked them completely down to create one massive Qatar Airways lounge.
And this is like a really interactive space. There's a really cool restaurant there, a couple of bars. And it's like something that I've never experienced before and I was able to leverage my points to get an experience there. And funny enough, I had a really good friend of mine who lives in Italy and he was absolutely dying to come for this concert.
I was like, dude, I have the ticket sorted, just come through. Gotcha. So there we go. So he built this to stay with me for a few days and we went and it was incredible. So you have this suite, they give you like 500 pounds to spend , at the restaurant as well, which is incredible. And they have a suspended walkway before the show, so you are able to walk out into the middle of the oh two at some incredible heights.
So I definitely don't recommend it if you are, if you have a fear of heights, that's for sure. But I'm like, it's just like skywalk over the crowd. Wow. Absolutely. And I have a thing, I get really excited with heights. Like I think I, it's a slight issue that I have, like I've been skydiving in Dubai, which is incredible.
Every city I go to, I try and go to the highest point for the best view. So for me, this was like a great experience, of course. , And it was just something that was so unique and so much fun. And I was like, next time I fly, like even recently, I flew out to Southeast Asia. , I had the opportunity to book a few different airlines and I was like, if I book with Qatar, I'll be able to get the points.
I can do something like this again in the future. And that's what I did. And I was, , I have a really strong affinity to that brand now. So from a brand perspective, it makes complete sense to do this stuff. From a consumer perspective, you are getting great value through these type of events.
So it's a win-win situation. , You're like the target. You're the guy. But , the funny part is that you've analyzed all this stuff. You're like gonna lead a focus group for these guys at some point because you've got so much vast knowledge, man, that's amazing.
I feel like , I, first of all, I gotta consult you on a bunch of different events and I'm sure we're gonna, we're gonna see each other soon, but like Absolutely. Dude, , I appreciate you taking the time, , sure. , To record this piece and, I hope that you come back very soon and do more mic drops and hopefully, arsenal comes to the US and you can follow them too, , see, , look, I'll be there next year for the World Cup for sure.
We will grab a pint and , listen to some Travis Scott and , do some other things, man. But thank you for coming to the podcast. I appreciate it. No, thanks Mario. Thanks for having me. It's been great to reconnect as well. .