Jason: Hello, everybody, and welcome to a little show we are calling the Thunder Cast. I am Jason Evangelho. I do marketing and a lot of the content that you see on the Thunderbird website and newsletters and social media. And I am joined by my awesome colleagues on this and hopefully every episode. Ryan Lee Sipes. Hello, and Alex Castellani. Hello. Hello. Let's talk about why we're here. I know that this is this is a show that we've been wanting to to produce for months, maybe almost a year.
And I think one of the first conversations I ever had with Ryan, I don't remember exactly what he said, but he had the name Thunder cast, like ready to go. And I said, I heard the name Thunder Cast and I wanted to create a show just based on the name. Yeah, it was too cool of a name and we had to do it the way that we're kind of framing. This is an inside look at the making of Thunder Bird, but also community driven conversations with all of our friends in the open source software space.
So in this first episode, we kind of want to set the stage and and talk a little bit about Thunderbird's history and the milestones that we had in 2022 and what's coming in the future. But then after episode one, we're going to have guests and guests from Matrix and guests from the Document Foundation and and it'll be a little bit less, you know, Thunderbird promotion and a little bit more kind of general discussion.
So why don't we go around and talk a little bit about ourselves, starting with Mister Ryan? Ryan: Sipes Yeah, so just in general, uh, probably most people who listen to this will have heard of me, even if they don't realize it. I've been in the open source Linux space for a long time. Um, I have been contributing to projects from my first projects, which were I was in the Ubuntu community and really early on and, and a few others that don't exist anymore like Mandrake and Mandriva.
And uh, I've just been around never early on was I was a teenager, so this was like 2004, 2003, 2004, 2005. So wasn't really contributing that much other than just lurking in forums and stuff, answering questions, things like that. It wasn't until, um, I was actually out of. College and starting on my career that I started actually contributing in any meaningful way. And then most people know me, or at least originally heard about me when I started. Mycroft The open source Amazon Echo.
But that was before Echo was actually out, so the world was still wide open for this type of voice assistant.
I went on from there to System 76, where I was the community manager and de facto PR person, and then crazy enough, kind of on a lark, took a job at Thunderbird as a part time community manager and ended up working My way up to my title is Product and Business Development Manager, which in our little organization means that I make all the product and final say on product and business decisions for Thunderbird, which is
a lot. But I'm really glad because when I came on, Thunderbird was super small. We had two people when I came on working on it and I was part time and the other person I think was full time. Yeah. Jason: I have to interrupt you. So what year was that? Ryan: It was now five plus a little over five years ago. Yeah. We and we had donations, but at that time it was so much different. We couldn't even get Thunderbird to build every day. That was coming off of a couple of years outside of Mozilla.
And the and while the community was working really hard, it was just very hard to keep Thunderbird going. I'm I'm going to try to make this super brief. Jason: It's a it's a podcast though so we can make this like 3.5 hours if we want to. Yeah. People it can be like the podcast that people fall asleep to and that's kind of a badge of honor. Ryan: Yeah, hopefully they're not falling asleep if it's just the middle of the day right now. And I'm sure we'll talk about this more in a little bit.
But long story short, got to take a lot of previous experience and you know, my startup background and and and open source just all the projects I've been in apply that to help us raise more money so that we could hire people to work on Thunderbird. And now we're in a very healthy place. We've got 20 some people working on the project and the future looks bright. So this is the longest I've been anywhere in my professional life.
Jason: People who read or listen to the conversation that I had with Alex in the first Meet the team post, which you can find at the Thunderbird blog blog, dot thunderbird.net. They already know the answer to this, but Ryan, I'm really curious, especially since you seem to have such a long history with Open source. What initially attracted you to the open source movement and why did you why did you continue to stick with it? Ryan: You're going to laugh at my answer and you should.
Um, I saw Beryl Compiz for the Linux desktop. So the the. Jason: Is that like the cube, the. Ryan: Cube and. Jason: Like the. Ryan: Burning down windows and things like that and the wobbly windows. Yeah. And I was definitely a hacker.
I was making video games at the time, you know, in high school like that was what I spent my free time doing and I saw that and something clicked to me like before that, the desktop experience, the experience you had on a desktop computer, which was pretty much the only computing experience you had at the time, was immutable. You couldn't change some things like that.
You couldn't make it behave in a different way than what was then what, you know, Microsoft and in my case at the time, you know, wanted the desktop experience to be I mean, there were some things you could do, but you you didn't really have the freedom to arbitrarily change things. And something about seeing that and then getting it loaded on my machine and messing around with values and, and changing how it behaved.
It, it hit something in a special part of my brain where I was like, Oh, this now my computer, I can make it do anything that I want. I was so enraptured by this Linux that I went to the computer lab at school after hours. My mom was a teacher so I could run around the school after hours and I thought, I'm just going to install Linux on all these, like, you know, like no one, no one's gonna, no one's gonna notice. They're not going to notice. Oh, no, I made it look like windows.
I used like a theme to make it look like, you know, and tried to arrange things so that because I just. I just had. I was convinced and I was old enough to know better, but I was convinced that this was happening. Like everybody's going to be using Linux. I'm going to I'm going to use this as like a test. Case to see if anybody even notices. And then I was in class the next day and immediately, like everyone noticed. Jason: And hey, sometimes we don't outgrow those kind of behaviors.
Just last year I made Linux mint look exactly like Windows XP. It was impossible to tell the difference until you actually started really digging into the OS. But I still love doing stuff like that. It's so much fun. Ryan: I never took credit for it, you know? They were like, Who did this? Alex: Like, Oh, really? They didn't. They didn't catch. Ryan: You? No, no. I just kept my mouth shut, you know, It was I mean, now they know if if anybody if any of the school staff listen to this.
But they're all retired now, so it doesn't matter. Jason: Well, Alex, tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do with Thunderbird. It's my. Alex: Turn now. How do I follow up that? Uh, well, similar to Ryan, maybe people are sick of hearing my story of who I am, especially if they follow Thunderbird. I've been talking about this for many, many, many times in the blog post and YouTube and so on. But yes, um, I'm Italian.
Uh, I lived, I was born in Italy and I lived in Italy until I was 27. And then one day I got super frustrated with my country and the people around me. So I said, I'm going to move to North America and have a better life. Uh, was not the easy dream and the easy win that I was expecting to be, but things turned out pretty well. Um, challenging, but extremely rewarding. I'm currently the product design manager at Thunderbird. I started as a designer slash developer. If I remember correctly.
Ryan reached out to me on my private private Slack channel. He joined. At that time I was doing like open source application. I was building things like Scholar and started creating Akira, a UX design application written in Vala for Elementary. And Ryan told me, Hey, do you want to work for Thunderbird? Ryan: Alex My my watching. You went back quite, quite a ways. I had asked him Cassidy a number of times about you and I was always like, Well, what's Alex doing? Because I was following a cure.
I was following Seckler and I thought I thought these are just beautiful applications. And and so I kept asking and eventually I was just like, I was just like, well, do you know what he's doing for work? And he's like, I think he's working, you know, at some kind of agency. And I was like, I was like, I'm I'm just gonna hop on a chat with him and just tell him he should come work for Thunderbird. Alex: So that was, oh, thank you for doing that.
And that was an awesome, an awesome moment in my life as you, um, I've been exposed to like open source in general throughout all my life. I started when I was in university because I, I talked a little bit in the blog post that was released but I couldn't afford, like especially all the software to do architecture. They're very expensive, like AutoCAD or Archicad. They were like hundreds of euros at the time. I couldn't afford them, so I found Blender for the first time.
I was like, Whoa, what is this? And then it's completely free and open source. And then I saw some videos online on YouTube about like blender developers, and I couldn't understand what type of operating systems they were using. And it turns out to be Ubuntu. I was like, What? And as you like, I was running Windows Vista at the time and then I saw a video comparing the performance of Windows Vista. The fancy aerial graphic interface with Ubuntu jaunty jackalope was at the time I
think. Uh 1404 maybe with the compiz cube and all these things. And yeah, that blew my mind. But yeah, Thunderbird even before working always on windows. That was the name before Outlook, before Gmail, before anything else. Thunderbird was the email client that you had to use because it was the only one that worked properly and allowed you to do things. So when you reached out, it was a sort of like a dream come true. I always wanted to.
I always dreamt about I wish I could actually work on a cool open source project. Like at the end of the day, of course, everybody wants to make money. Everybody wants to have a job that pays well. But especially in the tech industry, you feel a little bit detached from reality every time. Like you work on a startup that wants to disrupt something specific, or you work for clients that don't care about anything other than I just want 20,000 websites per minute and things like that.
But finding someone that is ethical and makes you feel good when you work on it because you know that it helps. It enables people to do their work. Yeah, it's extremely rewarding. So I've been a Thunderbird for now almost five years and when I joined we were five people I think. And it was funny because I joined and I was like, okay, cool, we're part of Mozilla, so let's let me see our design system. Oh no, we don't have a design system. Okay. What type of icons? Oh no, we don't have icons.
Uh, what is the visual direction of Thunderbird? No, no, it's fine. It's just let's code it. Let's maintain it. So it was interesting coming from agency work where you have the creative director and you do like meetings to define prototypes and then you do MVP's and then you go back and it's very well structured coming into this. It was kind of shocking.
Ryan: It's taken a while for us to get to a place where we actually have processes for doing this and everything, but it would only work with someone like Alex. And I say this for folks who are listening, who are maybe running open source projects, it hopefully there are many folks can get into a situation like Thunderbird is where they have a reliable donor base or some kind of business model that allows them to actually put time beyond just their own time into the app to their apps.
But it only works with folks like Alex who get it and who have the passion to take an open source project, apply a certain level of love to it. Jason: It almost becomes a reflection of who you are, right? In some ways. I mean, it's it's very much, you know, there's that phrase garbage in, garbage out. Well, the opposite also applies.
And, you know, especially when you're when you're building communities, if you project a certain type of mindset and attitude and positivity, that is the kind of community that you're going to build and see that reflected back at you. So it's yeah, it's the same way with with Thunderbird. It really does feel that way.
Yeah. Ryan: I think that having people on the team and we have a lot of passionate people who bring that passion into Thunderbird and don't just accept, Oh, there's Outlook, oh there's all these alternatives, you know, but, but actually like no, we, we are different. What we're making is different. What we're making matters. I think that goes a long way and what we're making does matter. It's the free and open source email client and personal information management client.
And that's there's nothing like it. Alex: What shocked me first when I came in was the the invigorating passion of the users using Thunderbird coming from startup worlds and agencies always the next thing, right? Like you build a website for a client, you know, in a couple of years they will need to redo it because it's outdated now.
Or you build a product in a startup because you want to disrupt a specific section of the market so you can blow it out and you have your exit strategy and make a quick buck. And then the next project again and your VCs, they change ideas every 20 minutes.
It's insane. Instead, you come into Thunderbird and there's a passionate community that have been using the same product and they they love it for all its flaws and all the things that are not properly working, it doesn't matter is like a solid user base that is always around. And there is these underlying understanding that this will not go away and it will only get better and improve. And there's the purpose to this product is not just a product. Now we kind of sound like a cult.
Jason: But yeah, the same thing happened with me because my my past experience was, you know, doing marketing for AMD, which is a huge company. And besides just I was a fan of certain AMD and Radeon products, but it wasn't, you know, I didn't have I was a small little drop of I was a small little speck of sand even inside just the marketing team and. You're like, it's it's it's really amazing to be able to feel like I can have my own
voice. One of the highlights of my day is engaging with everybody on Mastodon. There is something extremely and I'm not it's not my point to disparage anyone who follows us on Facebook or Twitter or anywhere else. But there is something special about the collective group of people on Mastodon because they they just get it, you know? I don't know. They just get it and they're so supportive and you feel like.
You feel like you're actually having one on one conversations there with people, whereas on Twitter and Facebook, you're sort of broadcasting out a message and that's that's kind of it. But it feels it feels really personal there and really, really uplifting. So yeah, that's my little we've got our mushy little stories and feel good feelings and. Alex: We love what we do and we love the people that use our product so well. Jason: I'll briefly, I'll briefly introduce myself.
My name's Jason Evangelho, and in a former life, I was a tech journalist at Forbes who discovered Linux in 2018 and then pivoted 180 degrees and started covering open source and Linux at Forbes. And in a more recent past life, I had a podcast and YouTube channel called Linux for Everyone. And Alex, I decided I got tired of North America and I moved to Croatia. So I'm like the opposite of a switch. I'm an American in Croatia. Yeah, I moved.
I moved here about five years ago, so and I've been with Thunderbird, I think for about nine months. And it's a it's a dream job. Like I know we're not maybe we're drinking the Kool-Aid here, but it's a dream job for me because it takes my love of open source and it takes my experience, you know, creating content and my experience building communities and puts it all together with an awesome team and it's great. Ryan: So yeah, maybe a good Segway Thunderbird is hiring.
So if you want to join our team, you can go to the Mozilla Careers page and you'll see Thunderbird stuff listed there. It'll say Thunderbird. If you just type in Mozilla.org slash careers, it'll it'll end up there and yeah, we're, we're looking for a senior software engineer and a full stack developer at the moment. So if you want to be passionate about what you're working on, please join our team.
Jason: Ryan you mentioned how there were, I think 2 or 3 full time people at Thunderbird and probably not too many more. Alex When you joined up, right, Yeah. Alex: Were 5 or 6 maybe. Jason: And now how many are we. Ryan: I think we're 24, 23 or 24. We're going to talk about something else here in a moment. But we're just so grateful to our community and our and our users and specifically of those users, the people who donate to support Thunderbird.
That is where all pretty much all of our income comes from. And and that is what we are completely community supported. And, and if you want to help support Thunderbird and make it better than any other email and personal information management client out there like go over and and donate. Jason: Keep in mind for for everyone listening, just keep in kind of the back of your of your thoughts as we as we continue through the through the show and we talk about last year and what's coming up.
Bear in mind that all of these milestones and all of these accomplishments and all of this growth is directly because of our supporters, our, you know, the people who donate, the people who give to Thunderbird, whether that is a one time donation or whether it's a recurring donation, it literally does make a huge difference. It really, really is amazing. Let's take a detour. And we're all geeks. It's no secret. I want to talk briefly about what got us excited over the last few weeks.
That isn't that doesn't have any thing to do with work. Like if I don't know, it's a hike or a trip or a song or a movie or a meal that you cooked or whatever. Ryan: Um, there's a, there's a couple things. Although I'm a new father of twins, and so I don't have near as much time to actually, like, do the fun stuff that I discover. So lately, the thing that I've been geeking out over is it's twofold.
One, I figured out you can really cheaply print boards that, that you can then turn into keyboards, you know, like the the PCBs, the main boards that that constitute keyboards and then actually attaching the components and everything is a lot simpler than I would have realized.
So you can build your own keyboard for relatively easy and there's enough there are enough designs out there of boards that you can kind of if even if you don't have a back I'm not an electrical engineer, but I can read through these and see them and understand kind of their differences and then kind of make my own decisions. And also, you know, if you're having a board printed, you can like get a transparent, you know, like in case for it and then have them etch in like art on it.
So I'm definitely going to make a Thunderbird keyboard and I'm going to have it be one of those split ones, you know, that like Butterfly or whatever they call it. Jason: Thunderbird logo will be the super key. The window. Ryan: Yeah, exactly. Jason: The meta. Ryan: Key. So that actually is the first project in a while that I saw that I'm like, I'm going to do that. Jason: That's neat. Keep us posted. Yeah, keep us posted on that.
Ryan: The other one that I've been working on that I'll eventually share out is I've always wanted to build an arcade cabinet and just have it be an emulator that has like all of the arcade games you could ever want legally acquired, you know, Super Nintendo and all the ones for the lawyers out there, all the games that I already have, you know, load them, load them on there. Um, two projects that I've been building my kind of pocket library with articles on, on how to do the different pieces.
Those that's what's been capturing my imagination. Jason: You know, we got to we got to stop letting this guy go first because I can't even come close to topping that. Alex: We to feed on your new passion on that I don't know if you ever heard about the late night Linux show is a podcast. Um. Joe Redington. Yeah there's. Jason: Shout out to Joe.
Alex: I don't remember who, but one of them already built something like that with a, um, a Raspberry Pi put it in a cabinet and there's an emulator that actually he talked about this in one previous episode that simulates the distortion on of the actual screen on the sides and is like, so realistic. Do you want. Ryan: To know what I was looking at? I was looking at Crt's and then a HDMI two to whatever the analog little screw thing and they exist. So I'm debating actually having it be a CRT.
But yeah, yeah, but I'm also a little disgusted by that. So I'm going to, I'm going to have to think about that. Alex: Just do it and then we're going to come to your place and just play video games like Arcade. Yeah. Yes, we. Jason: Are. That sounds so much. Oh, yeah, that's. That's been a dream of mine. Not not something that I ever I really have the resources or patience to accomplish but always a dream to have an actual arcade cabinet or I would settle for the Ms. Pac-Man cocktail table.
Hahaha. Ryan: Yeah, that's. Jason: That's, that's the one arcade machine that I want to own that are Super Street Fighter two. So mine is not really geeking out, so I don't know if we'll actually title this segment geeking out, but I was most excited about a my vacation. My wife and I went to the Canary Islands and specifically Tenerife, which is one of the largest islands, and they were having carnival up in the north part of the island and you guys. For an entire week in February.
Okay. It was spring weather. It didn't deviate. It didn't change. It was like 68 to 72 degrees, 1718 Celsius, something like that. 20 Celsius some days. Just absolutely gorgeous. Incredible food, incredible scenery, incredible culture. There we we one night we we went out to eat some dinner and on one of the main roads, we counted eight live bands on just like two blocks And that that just absolutely delighted me because I'm a huge music freak.
So the the really amazing thing about this area is the second to last day, we we decided to visit the volcano. Now, that's that's a very harrowing story because I decided foolishly to rent a moped to go up the mountain and did not realize that within 30 minutes it was going to go from that beautiful springtime weather to like zero to absolutely freezing. Literally freezing. But that's a that's a separate story.
I won't go into that. But it was the the beauty and the and the contrast of of within an hour going from, you know, wearing having like Eggs Benedict on the beach in sandals and shorts to driving a moped up to up a mountain road and seeing the volcano that formed the island and being in this completely different like what's the word biosphere or um. Alex: Ecosystem or something. Jason: Ecosystem, right. Completely different. Snow everywhere.
Wow. And, man, like, just that little island has everything. I actually entertained briefly moving there because it was so just stunning. I mean, every everything there is just absolutely stunning. And it's surprisingly affordable for what kind of feels like a tourist trap type of place. Right. But so that's that's what I was excited about. And I was reading this this new book by Rick Rubin called The Creative Act the whole time.
And that like, all that scenery and that relaxation and that book, like kind of supercharged my creative juices. And so now I'm making music again, and it's just all good. So what about you, Alex? Alex: I miss the vacation so much. So I'm, uh, dreaming about the weather. Like here in Vancouver. It's been, like, raining nonstop for six months, which is not giving you a mild depression at all, but it's fine. So geeking out. I'm a huge music geek. I've been playing guitar my whole life.
Um, back in Italy, I used to have multiple bands. The the week before I moved to Canada, we won a contest and we won it. We were booked to play in Paris and I had to tell my band, I'm sorry, I'm moving to Canada. No. Yes. My band, they were extremely, extremely upset. So after moving to Canada, I every time I was going back to Italy once every two years to visit my family, I was bringing back one guitar every time.
And now I have five guitars back here, but I always try to play again, but I couldn't find any people. It was kind of tough. And then last year after COVID, uh, I formed another band and I had my first concert a couple of weeks ago and it was incredible. I loved it so much. And alongside that I bought a new guitar because of course you cannot have enough guitars ever. And I bought my first Gibson Les Paul, which was always been a dream of mine. I was never able to afford it.
I got it. And it's the heaviest thing I've ever held. But it the sound, it comes from angels and demons altogether is so soothing and powerful and smooth. Jason: And two obvious questions What's the name of the band? Alex: We don't have a name yet. Jason: That's the hardest part of having a band is giving it the name. It is like bands will break up over just naming the band.
Alex: But related to that, because we wanted to find a band name after every rehearsal that we end up like finishing at 11 p.m., we hang out to a pub that eats in front of the music room and this pub is in a basement and there's the Miss Pacman cocktail table. Jason: Oh, man, I'm moving. I'm moving to Canada. That's so cool. Well, I can't wait till we can because I heard a brief snippet that you shared in our matrix room, and it was pretty cool.
And I'm looking forward to hearing some music from you. Ryan: It's funny that actually I think the three of us all have. Musical background. I know Jason is a musician, and I've told you before, I think that that I was in a band that toured for a little while. What did you play? I was a vocalist, but I. But I. You can't see him because I'm not up on the wall yet, but I play guitar, banjo and a little bit of violin, but it sounds like.
It sounds. It can definitely go into like, creepy violin, you know, easily, like. Jason: Like horror movies. Ryan: Yeah, exactly. I think. Alex: That works. For metalcore. That's perfect. Come on. Yeah. Jason: Why? So why aren't we making music? Alex: Thundercast can turn into a music band. It's fine. Jason: I mean, okay, I'm ready.
All right. So let's talk a little bit about the history of Thunderbird being kind of on the front lines of all the chatter on social media and and seeing how the outside world perceives Thunderbird. There is a probably the main confusion point is, is like, are we a Mozilla product or are we not a Mozilla product? And I know that's a very tricky thing to navigate. So Ryan, give us some clarity to.
Ryan: Understand Mozilla and Thunderbird, you have to understand a little bit about Mozilla as a company and I say that with air quotes, people can't see it. So Mozilla Foundation is a non-profit that if I say Mozilla and if anyone really says Mozilla, what you're talking about has its roots in the Mozilla Foundation, which is a nonprofit with the charter to just make a better Internet for everybody. The foundation owns the Mozilla Corporation, which houses Firefox.
Um, there's a number of reasons for that. The main reason is that just US law makes it very hard to create software as a nonprofit and actually hire all the people that you need to, especially if you have a very popular piece of software. And I do think this has changed a little bit over the years.
But I know that that in the past, you know, the the IRS has kind of been like you're hiring developers to make software that doesn't seem like a charitable activity, like you're supposed to use money that you collect for charitable activities. So so for the and I think like I said, I think that is changing. But it hasn't always been that way.
And it's been very difficult for, you know, a government tax agency to grok that you could be making software that's for the public good that, you know, is not built around some kind of traditional like business model or whatever. But but I say all that to say that Thunderbird existed for quite some time in the corporation. The problem with Thunderbird was there wasn't really a good funding way to fund its development, so people loved it.
It was a popular application, still is, but no one really figured out how to fund it. So Mozilla put it into Mozilla messaging, which was its own little house, and their intention was to find a way to fund fund its development and they weren't able to either. It's not trivial to to make an application as robust as Thunderbird. It does a lot and it's expected to do a lot and it's expected to do it well.
And I'm sure there are open source enthusiasts who are listening who are like, You don't need a company, you just need a dedicated volunteers, you know, to make things work. And and that's true to an extent. But but there's always the there's always a problem of something is in a seriously broken state. It's going to take months to sort it out.
You know, like who's going to do that work and who's going to show up every day to make sure that the software is is fixed and and those pile up over time. Eventually, you have hundreds of projects that no one really has the volunteer time to take on. And so projects suffer a lot of bitrot eventually they just die out. So when I came on, it was a couple of years after Mozilla had said Thunderbird is still a part of Mozilla, but we're turning it over to the community to maintain.
And the community formed a council, elected individuals from the community to kind of guide and steer the project. And they hired folks like me with the donations that they did have, which were compared to what we have now, were somewhat meager. But they it was enough to hire a few people and to maintain the application of course, my role was to be community manager. So to try and orchestrate, you know, how as a community we would continue to support the
application. So our success, we were in the Mozilla Foundation, so we were in the nonprofit and that was great. But due to a few changes, one of which was just asking our users, finding good ways to ask our users to support us. We ended up getting a bunch of donations and growing and we grew to be, just as we talked about earlier, too big to fit maybe in the foundation it was.
We were already facing all sorts of operational problems because of how quickly we were growing and it looked like we would continue growing. And so an entity called Msla was created to house us. And so that's where we sit Now. I say all that because even though it's a bunch of business maneuvering and stuff, I have two really distinct thoughts on that. One is oftentimes open source projects, kind of push that into the background and say like, let's not talk about that.
Which I think is a mistake because sustainability for open source is a big question. And it's one of the things I've always had a big issue with with open source projects is people think a lot, a lot about how am I going to build the cool thing, but not about how am I going to make sure that this cool thing continues to be built and continues to be maintained? And we see that all the time.
We see projects that enormous companies like Amazon and Google rely on, and it'll have like one guy who doesn't get paid to do it, like working on it. And this is for folks who aren't in open source world. This is getting into the weeds a bit, but there's a conversation that needs to be had when you're starting an open source project or you're or if you're like me, you end up running an open source project. You have to ask yourself like, okay, like I love this project, it's beautiful.
How is it going to be maintained? How is it going to continue to be supported? Jason: The big hurdle is, is that when you're starting an open source project, you're probably not thinking about that. You're thinking about creating the thing, right? If you're if you're the one creating the thing, you know, there are exceptions, but there's a pretty, pretty strong chance that you have the creative skill set to make that project awesome. But you don't. Maybe not.
Maybe you don't have the skill set to market that project and to, you know, work with other there's so many, so many layers that go into actually building and then sustaining a project. It's staggering. Ryan: Yeah. And this is where I give Mozilla credit. Mozilla among especially the most hardcore open source folks, they want Mozilla to be perfect and to to always make the right decisions.
But if you're if you're in charge of keeping these big projects that serve tens or in in Firefox's case hundreds of millions of users, you have a ton of decisions to make constantly all the way up and down the stack, all with with every piece of it. How do you from how do you fund it to how do you actually maintain the the software and
everything? Even when Thunderbird was at its worst state, the people I consider to be the key stakeholders at Mozilla didn't ever treat it like it was a zombie project, didn't ever treat it like it was a dead project. Now it was a zombie project in a lot of ways for a little bit, but but they tried to find ways to make sure that we could continue to do what we needed to do in order to make the application available for our users to kind of bring it full circle.
We are Mozilla, we are a part of Mozilla. We don't intend to leave Mozilla. A lot of people say like Thunderbird should strike out on its own. We get a ton of value from Mozilla. The people inside each part of the organization, whether it's a nonprofit, the the Firefox team and of course you know, our own team. People across each of these areas contribute to our success. And and we have a lot of people who help us.
And so we have gone on a circuitous kind of journey to find how we are sustainable, how we can continue to create a great product and a great piece of software. But it took a while, but we couldn't have done it outside of Mozilla. I firmly believe that. I think it it had to be here. So we still are Mozilla and Mozilla is a big tent with a lot of parts.
Alex: Yeah. To add to that, from a purely technical point of view, we rely on a lot of resources in Mozilla, like being able to deploy on their servers and release daily or beta on all the platforms and like all these infrastructure that if we would be completely independent we would have to pay and the cost is very large, it would affect us, it would affect our ability to hire, it would affect our ability to actually focus on the product and instead, like we would need, yeah.
To spend a lot of time, money and resources into the just the infrastructure that right now we kind of get for free. Ryan: Alex, do you want to talk a little bit about 102 and what kind of what groundwork we we laid? Maybe it will set the stage for Supernova. For some people, they saw some changes, but maybe not as much as they were expecting last year. And we can talk a little bit about all the invisible work.
Alex: So yes, the past year, 2022, but even before that, um, a lot of things under the hood started changing, especially like version 61, 78. There were kind of like always similar. And every time I speak about Thunderbird because my main area of expertise and my main effort is on the front end, I mostly reference the front end, but also all the things that we've been doing affect also the back end.
What happens in the past couple of years with Thunderbird is that we were trying, we were growing, we were adding more developers and more expertise in different areas. So we had the chance and the possibility to actually make some decisions rather than what we've been doing before, which was literally trying to maintain what we currently have as a product and make sure that it releases any builds.
Now we have the time, the capacity and the resources to let's change things, let's decide what new things we can implement and how to fix and and rework it.
That wasn't easy and it's still not easy because we found a lot of issues and difficulties other than the code base being not ancient per se, but in software development, something that was built ten years ago right now is ancient because with the progress on web technologies and all the things that change every year, things that you write ten years ago are nowhere comparable to what you can write today. So the first hurdle was we need to start cleaning up the code.
We need to make it more modern from just coding standards and technology standards, and we need to do that so it's easier to update, it's easier to change things because right now, every time we get in, it just takes a lot of time to change every little thing. And as soon as you change something, other things in a completely different section, they collapse because they were tangled together 15 years ago and no one remembers or there's no documentation about it. So it's a bit messy.
Jason: I just I should I should point out at this point that I'm not a developer. And so I will always be kind of, you know, asking the questions that maybe the audience is thinking about.
And it seems like it seems to me that once the code gets modernized and gets more refined and cleaned up, that the existing team that we have now could actually be so much more productive when it comes to like, yes, fixing bugs and addressing maybe, you know, adding accessibility features and adding other things. Is that is that generally correct? Alex: That's exactly the goal. And the purpose of the rework and the rewriting that we're doing.
One of like a lot of examples that I can make like one of the most glaring examples is just of course like the user interface. We weren't able to change anything because in the past we didn't have the designers or the front end developers to tackle those things. So we were just tagging along to what Firefox was releasing. Firefox uses toolbar buttons or uses XUL menu pop ups uses all these toolkit widgets, so it's easier for Thunderbird to just repurpose those toolkit toolkit widgets.
But unfortunately Firefox, they have hundreds of developers and they push hundreds of changes per day and they change those toolkit items to service them, not to service Thunderbird. So every time they were making a change, that change was affecting us and the way that we use those interface and those toolkit UI elements is completely foreign for what they were originally designed for.
If you think about Firefox, it's just Firefox is a toolbar and then you have your website and then the interface is just the settings page, which is also another like web page basically. So there's not much UI and Thunderbird has a lot of UI. So trying to use what Firefox offers to our benefit every time something changes in the source, then we get affected and we always add that rushing of once a week.
We need to pour things from Firefox, we need to follow along, we need to fix it and we could never have the time to let's create something new. Let's dedicate our time on these extra project because things were breaking constantly and this is not I don't want to throw shade to the Firefox developers. There have been like extremely useful and they always collaborate with us. But it's the reality of the fact there are like 200, 300 developers. We were five.
It was very difficult for us to tag along and continue. Three years ago, 178 came out. That was the first step towards let's try to decouple ourselves from the tool kit of Firefox. Easier said than done. Of course. It's been three years now and we're still doing it. And finally, after three years with the next version 115 users will be able to see the first actual wins and changes that we're doing there and we're achieving.
Jason: Before the development of supernova, at least, let's say the UX and UI development started. What were both of you most wanting to introduce into Thunderbird? 115 Like what was the the feature that you really wanted to get in there. Alex: Vertically outwas from me? Ryan: I mean, I was going to say the same thing. It's actually since the moment I came on and why I reached out to Alex Alessandro, it was my intention to fix the layout.
We have many users who love the single line message list, but for me it's always been a challenge because it just looks like it just looks so dense and and almost cluttered. It just it's just too much at a glance. And and so for me, it was always every release I thought we would get here. And so to see it actually come to fruition is, is really amazing. Alex: It took us three years to reach this point because of the. Underlying architecture that we were using.
Our three the message list and the folder panes were generated at the time, still today in some parts, but at the time from like a C plus plus interface that spit out a three and that was not accessible. It wasn't you cannot you couldn't inspect it. It didn't accept any variation of the layout other than the table list.
And the complexity was the fact that that's a marvelous piece of engineering because it allows you to print and view millions of emails without affecting your performance because it just fakes the height and recycles. When you scroll down, it generates on the fly. So it doesn't matter how long is your inbox, it doesn't affect your performance, but that comes from Firefox and Firefox created that.
That piece of engineering for the bookmarks and the bookmarks list is just a column with a link and that's it. We took that and we extended it to have the full message with the columns for the attachments and the read and the spam and the favorite and the dates and the locations and the tags, and then the message that you can expand it to have like the threads. So we, we took that initial simple implementation that works perfectly for
Firefox. We extended it to the point that is now it's a nightmare to manage because it wasn't intended to be that complex every time something changed. It takes years because of the technical complexity, historical, technical debt and making sure that what we release is on par, if not better, to what it was before. So yeah, all the releases 61, 78, 102 were the testing ground of slowly changing things and slowly implementing something that is not immediately visible.
It happens in the background and and we're sure, okay, it didn't implode. It's not broken. Still usable. Okay let's do something extra. Something more. And now, yeah, we're approaching 115, which is going to be like a big change. Jason: Now, let's not let's not freak people out when we say big change.
Because one of the one of the things that that we recently highlighted is that while there are some modernizations happening with the the user interface, we we very strongly believe in in retaining the type of workflow and the type of visual layout that you're used to that you've been used to for the last 20 years.
And so when we say change, think of it as additional options, not not as something that you're going to be forced into getting used to and having to change all your muscle memory and and all that. Yeah. Alex: When I specifically talk about like big changes, I was referencing architectural changes that will allow us to maintain what the users love and are used to, but also expose extra features for new users or users that are tired of the current interface or
the current flows. And they want something that is different or works differently. It works more on par with modern applications or like competitors. Ryan: It's making new ways of using Thunderbird available, which we think and we don't just think we we use a lot of heuristics and user what we know about user habits and data to try to improve the experience. There are a lot of things that we've done that should make Thunderbird more contextually helpful.
In the past, the approach of Thunderbird has been give a giant list of options at any point for someone to interact with a thing. And what we're trying to do is let's give people the most likely stuff that they're going to need at the moment that they need it. And then if they want, they can interact with it in all these other crazy ways. But let's not give them just like everything all at once, let's give them like the most likely things they're going to do.
And then if they want, they can do the other things as well, which I think will make people's productivity a lot higher. I am a tag user, so I tag my emails to do. I tag my emails important. We're exposing tags so that you can quickly sort email by tags, you know, from the folder
pane. And I think that it's all these little things like that that will help unlock people's productivity so they don't have to hunt and peck around for the things that they're trying to do, but actually have those what I consider kind of no brainers available when they need it. Sometimes we have all this stuff available, but it's it gets lost because there's just so much that you're hit with.
If you right click on a message on Thunderbird 102, most of our users listening to this are on Thunderbird 102. Right click on a message. You can do everything with a message. But all of that stuff gets equal billing there. So what you probably have 42 menu items available to you there. We can do a lot better. We know a lot of how how you guys are using Thunderbird and we want to make it easier to use Thunderbird. Jason: Well, it sort of reduces the, the it reduces the cognitive burden.
Right. And and you know, this is, this is software that a lot of people are in all day long and we want to make that as pleasant and non stressful as possible for them. Ryan: You talked about cognitive burden, which I think about quite a lot. Let's let the content of the emails, let's let the activity that the user is trying to do be as painless as possible and let them actually engage with like what the thing is. So, oh, you know, like this report. Okay, I want to read the report.
I want to respond to it and do that in a way that's in my response is understandable contextual to my recipient, maybe even beautiful. You know, doing that and focusing on that will enable people who are using the application to do more, to be more productive, to be the email hero, you know, in their organization.
And and I'm sorry if I'm going way out there, but I feel like that's a job that we as Thunderbird for a long time let slip we were like we need to make sure that it does X, Y, Z, you know, all these different things. But we didn't actually spend a lot of time thinking, how do we make the person more productive? How do we make them have more clarity around what they're doing?
How do we make them, Yeah, reduce that cognitive load so that they're not looking at their email inbox and just stressed out. Alex: And I know we have a lot of users that they love the super compact, all the information all at once. I want to see all together and that's perfect. We will always maintain that. We will never remove that.
But unfortunately there's been a lot of researches in terms of UX, in terms of what's your focal point, even the simplest thing that your eye, even if you have the illusion that I see 20,000 emails altogether, so I can see everything, your eye will only have a two millimeters of focal point in the middle. So it doesn't matter if you see 20 messages or two. If you're reading one thing, you can only read one thing.
And for many users, having all that information around in their areas that are blurred, it's too much is just distracting. You cannot focus on one thing at a time. So why one type of user is right and the other type of user is wrong. Like all users are right or wrong, like it doesn't matter. There's always a flow that is perfect for one person and it's horrible for another and
vice versa. So we need to be able to support all these things because of all the things that we've been releasing on social media and all the great work that you've been doing. Jason And just sharing all the updates we do. There's been a lot of talk about all the changes that we're doing at Thunderbird, in other media, in other podcasts, and there's a recurring thing that I hear from users that have been using emails for many, many years and it's email is not broken. Don't try to fix it.
Why are you changing things? And if anyone has any experience in software development, first of all, we're not trying to change email the email protocol. The email concept is not what we're trying to change. We're talking about our application, talking about Thunderbird and an application is never finished. If you don't constantly maintain it, if you don't constantly update it and refactor it, it will get stale. As Ryan said, it will bit rot and it will turn into a zombie.
We'll turn into Abandonware because things change in the background, architecture change and the release toolkits change and the ability to run that application on an updated operating system, which we cannot ask the user, Hey, stay on Windows 7 because otherwise Windows 11 is not supported because we haven't updated, we haven't changed anything because Thunderbird is not broken, so we shouldn't change it.
Updating the architecture of Thunderbird to make sure that it is sustainable, maintainable and can be upgraded and coded for the next 20 years. It's also like one of the most important things the fact that by doing so we gain the ability to do all the extra cool things on top. It's mostly gravy and it's what the user will experience. But in the background, what we're trying to do is trying to make Thunderbird sustainable and fast and light for the next 20 years.
Ryan: This is the last thing I'll say on the on the front end stuff is this work is amazing and. If you go and you pull down daily. Bear in mind it's alpha. So some things do act funky.
But if you if you load up the vertical layout, which has the multi-line message list, which if people don't know what I'm talking about, it means that instead of just a single line, that in your message list that has all the information we actually now can display over two or more lines, some of the email content, the author, the subject, you know, is it starred, is it? Tags aren't supported at the moment, but is it tagged? You can immediately see and feel the difference of the application.
And to go back to your original question, Jason, and I know we spent a long time on this, I think that this is the largest change since Thunderbird was made, and I think it will also have the greatest positive impact on our users productivity and experience of using Thunderbird than anything that we've done or will do for the next few years.
Jason: What do you guys recommend if people really want to check out some of the changes that are already implemented, kind of a supernova preview, Do you recommend that they check out daily or should they stick to beta? Ryan: Probably beta right now. Beta will, I think is is in a state where we've never we've always had beta be very sacred and not very experimental. Right now it's for the first time ever since I've been around in an experimental state.
But I think here in the next couple of weeks if folks pull down the beta and they start using it in the next couple of weeks, they'll see beta, not next couple of weeks, the next beta release, which will be, I don't know when the next beta release is. Yes, two weeks. So the next couple weeks. Yeah. I think it will start to. Really take form even more.
And by the time we get into April May, it should be much it should be much closer to in a state that I think everybody would expect that they could look at that and probably say this is really close to what we'll get. Jason: Because for for people who aren't following the roadmap or kind of the, you know, the inside baseball type stuff, the feature freeze has already happened.
So the the takeaway there from from me as a as a non developer, as a user is that Thunderbird team is spending a lot of time on Polish and on stability and on performance and not, you know, we got to get this feature in at the last minute and it might be broken but that's that's on the roadmap and we have to do it.
So that's I really respect that because not only is it going to be such a really like a breath of fresh air visually, but it's nice to see the team allowing several months just to just to add the polish. Alex: That, yeah, we broke the cycle a little bit because as Ryan said, beta is always been extremely stable. Yeah, almost as stable as 1 or 2, but with the ability to get once a month and four updates every beta with like new releases or new features.
A little bit earlier this time we decided let's actually use beta to get some meaningful feedback because our beta population is very small compared to our ESR population. So when we release a final stable release, then we get a bunch of bug reports that we never consider we'd never seen because we're a beta population. Wasn't that extensive, testing wasn't that extensive on beta. So this time we ramped up our social media presence.
We started talking about supernova, we started exposing when things will happen, and then we decided, let's release all these things that we built in the past four months, five months from September to January, on February beta. We know that it's not super stable. We know that it's unpolished and unfinished. But since we're on Feature Freeze, we're not building any extra news. Like all the things that are in the codebase right now are the things that we're shipping
in 115. So we're going to take the next five months to just polish them. And in order to highlight or find out all the issues we need to expose to our beta users and we apologize if some beta users get upset because we they relied on beta for many years thinking that it was extremely stable, but it needed to be done in order to have as much feedback as possible and expose these new things to the users as early as possible.
Jason: And we're going to have, I'm sure, at the wherever this is published, it'll be published on the Thunderbird blog and in other places. But in our show notes we'll have a place where you can leave feedback if you're a beta user, maybe you haven't joined the mailing list. I'll we'll show you where that is and we'll of course have links to links to Thunderbird on the Fediverse and on YouTube and on Peertube and all the other social network places that you can talk to us and leave us feedback.
Alex: And a couple of things. A lovely things happen for how many users get upset. And they were some like vocal discontent, like very, very strong discontent on, on the things that we did. We got an equal if not higher number of users that actually joined the beta willingly and started participating in bug reports and bug triaging and the participation of our
community. A lot of users just joined, signed up into Bugzilla and started learning how to use bugzilla and bug triage things for us is incredible. It's a heartwarming. Jason: I just want to say like if you're listening to this show and you are someone who is active on Bugzilla, you're filing bug reports. Props to you and thank you because let's not beat around the bush.
It's difficult using bugzilla, actually, not just bugzilla, but the majority of bug reporting platforms that are out there are not easy to use. You know, it can be time consuming. There's a lot of detail that goes into it and I wish it was easier, but just know that you're making a huge difference. Alex: The learning curve is pretty steep. So we would have never expected something like that. We were expecting we're going to release this beta.
Our community is going to be very upset because things are not finished and polished and stable, but at least we are going to get some bug reports on things that are broken. And instead it was completely opposite like a lot of excited people. Yes, we got some complaints, but a lot of excited people. Very detailed bug reports, people that are every day in our matrix room. And on Bugzilla helping us to identify things. It's incredible. It's really like mind blowing.
Jason: Now something that definitely deserves mention here and probably in fact, I think we will be giving it its own episode is K-9 mail. You know, we it's it's a much lower profile right now than than Thunderbird. But for people who are not keeping pace, you know, because it's it's a fairly recent development. K-9 mail is an open source email application for Android. And it recently joined the Thunderbird family. And we hired the developer full time.
And in fact, we recently hired another developer full time to work on K-9 mail. And long story short, K-9 mail will eventually transform into Thunderbird for Android. So let's talk a little bit about that before we close out the show. Ryan: Yeah, for a long time, especially, my pet project was getting Thunderbird onto mobile.
It was definitely something that for ever since the day I came on, in fact, when I interviewed, I said one of my goals will be getting Thunderbird onto mobile and it took me years, but I finally got it. If if I'm being honest about my own email habits, I, I definitely read a lot more email on mobile. It might be equal to how much I reply to stuff on mobile or desktop.
It's really important when we have these supercomputers in our pockets that Thunderbirds values are our thoughts on how an email experience should be. I thought it was important that we be where our users are at, and that's increasingly more and more in the mobile context. And so I spoke with Katie, who is the maintainer of K9. He has been for a long, long time. K9 itself is a fork of the original Android email application that came out with Android, you know, when Android came out.
Now, I don't even think you get an open source email client out of the box. I'm pretty sure on most phones you don't you get Samsung, Gmail or Gmail. So talking with Katie, we are the values of the two projects were aligned. K9 has been chronically underfunded. That's not that's not a knock on the community.
They have been funding the application, but it's just I don't know, it's a matter of scale of of just Katie being the only person trying to both develop the application and raise money for it. And so the project and its key contributors agreed that it should be a part of the Thunderbird family. And so it joined the Thunderbird family.
And this year, either slightly before or slightly after 115 Thunderbird for Android, which will be K9 AS But with all the features we've identified that have to be there in order for it to be Thunderbird to be called Thunderbird will be ready to go. Jason: And what are those features? That's the burning question, right?
Because I know, I know when people hear this, they're going to think or they're going to maybe hope that a lot of the like, power user type of features move from desktop to to mobile. Ryan: And that's that's really where, you know, K9 fortunately had quite a few power user features and settings that I think that most of our users appreciate. And I think that a lot of our users who went out to find the Thunderbird experience on mobile found K9.
So, so the main things we focused on is a few different things. One is making sure that no matter what account you bring to K9 to Thunderbird on Android, it'll work and it'll be set up and you won't have to hand jam a lot of settings or whatever. Nice. And so OAuth support for major providers that, that, that was a big thing that we did.
Right now the new account setup is going into K9, so that's going to allow K9 to use Thunderbird's auto discovery stack, which will allow if you type in a Yahoo account, it'll know it's a Yahoo account, it'll do all the right settings. This is something that K9 didn't have. So usually it would make the right guess. But if you had a custom domain or something, it it wouldn't always. That has been a problem for new users of K9. That's that's going to be resolved.
I imagine, this month or early next month. There's a lot of UX UI improvements that have gone into it. You can actually see pretty much all of those I think, that are going to get in maybe minus a few little nits right now. Jason: In the beta, right In version 6.5500. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And by the time you hear this, that probably won't be beta anymore. I agree. But version 6.5 is what you want to look for.
And if you, if you just want to see some visuals, we have several screenshots on the Thunderbird blog. Ryan: And what those for for folks who don't end up checking that out, that looks like we have a new message view. So when you're viewing a message, all the header information and everything is now arranged in a better way. If you at a glance you can get, I feel like a lot better sense of the the message. Like who is the message from what is what is happening here.
But if you want to dig into the nitty gritty of the message or if it's just a message with a ton of recipients in the past, that would just take up half of your screen and now you can click on the message header and you can see all these different all this recipients, other additional information about the message, which is really nice because then that's actionable. So if you see someone on the list, you can just click on them and send a message directly to them.
You can save them to your contacts. Et cetera. Et cetera. So that's a really great improvement. The message list now has more options. It's it's better laid out. Much like with Thunderbird on desktop, it's it's a little less just dense by default. But that allows you to kind of better understand your inbox at a glance. Jason: But but like with Thunderbird, you can make it. Compact, you can make it more relaxed or you can just go with the default out of the box.
Ryan: And the canine is really granular. You can change it a ton. So if you want if you want something that is just hyper dense, it's very easy to set that up. But you know, for those of you who might have issues with text size and things like that, there's options for making it even larger and the content larger. So that I know I have some users in my family who they need it big, they need it relaxed so that they can they can see what they're actually interacting with.
Jason: Will there be any kind of communication between your Thunderbird desktop client and Thunderbird for Android in terms of like account settings or any other features that both applications have, Will they be able to talk to each other? Ryan: Well, here's the deal. Some of these things like tags and filters, are they don't exist in canine right now. Like that concept doesn't exist that is landing this year. So folks will be able to set up filters, set tags, tags is a it's an IMAP feature.
So it's not a something special. You know, if you tag stuff, you know, on one machine that that will automatically show up as long as the client supports it. So canine will support tags. Syncing is something that we are going to get done. It will be done. I can I'm pretty confident it will be done this year. I'm not sure it will be ready at the release of Thunderbird on Android.
I'm not sure it will be ready with the 115 release, but I think that before the end of the year I would expect users to be able to sync their accounts between desktop and mobile. That's something that we really hope to have in time for the release, but I can't make that promise at the moment. Other improvements is folders on canine. Right now it's you're not working with the same space you have on desktop, so a big folder list can be a lot. So we've played around with some with some ideas.
I know Kenny has has done a lot of thinking on on how can we make folder management work in canine and and we're getting there and so so better folder management and better ability to view and manage your folders will be coming to canine and and that's something that even Gmail for instance doesn't do that well and so I'm excited to be able to bring a better experience there. But that's I think most of what we're working on And then going into the future, we've already started exploring.
You know, you're on mobile, you go for the weekend to the cabin. And one thing we're discussing is profiles. So I have my work email, maybe my small business that I also like run on the side, my side hustle and my personal email in there. We're going to be trying to we're going to try to sneak in things like profiles so that you can say on the weekend, no work, no side hustle, things like that. So and I think that would be a good feature for Thunderbird desktop too.
But there are some mobile specific features that we think will be good quality of life, that stuff to look forward to after the release. But still things we want to tackle sometime this year. Jason: It's a lot going on and that's not even everything. That's just what we've talked about in this episode. There's a lot more going on. Oh man, that's going to be a good year.
Ryan: We do get questions just to top off the mobile discussion about iOS, we are hiring an iOS developer to begin to lay the groundwork for Thunderbird on iOS. It's not as easy as with K9. There's there's not any pre-existing clients that are still maintained and still have authors who are active in those. I've looked and I have found some open source iOS email applications, but they're they're in worse. They're in really bad state as far as I've found.
So we're going to have to lay the groundwork and I'm not sure if anything will be available this year, but I'm hoping at some point next year we have we'll be able to share something, even if it's a very early build. So if you're an iOS developer and you love open source and you love email, just keep your eyes peeled. Jason: Well, guys, we have covered a lot of ground tonight. Thank you so much for joining me and for, I don't know, talking about.
Alex: Thunderbird and open source and all the awesome. Things. Thanks Alex. That will come in the future. Speaker4: Yeah. Jason: My my, my show host legs are a little a little rusty and it's fine. Alex: We are also we are developers. We are not showmen. So if this is a bit rusty, it's okay. We'll get better with time. But yeah. Jason: Yes, yes indeed. If you want to get the thunder cast, it should be by the time you're listening to this, it should be available in your favorite podcast app.
You know all the major ones, All the small ones. It will always be on blog thunderbird.net and we'll be sharing it, of course, across all of our social media accounts. And you can't miss it. If you follow us anywhere, we'll make sure that you know, there's a new episode. Our plan right now is to do one episode per month just so that we, you know, you want to take a few days to listen to it in chunks.
You can do that. And that ensures that we have the time to also sit together and record a quality episode and get, you know, a great guest as well, because the next the next episodes after this, we'll have some some friends in the open source community to talk to. And if you have any direct feedback for the show, you can email us that makes sense at [email protected]. Any, any, any last words, last words, any parting, parting words or little. Ryan: Highlights of the future.
You know, we've talked about bringing on friends in the open source space. So if you're so so tune in again to talk We'll talk to folks from other projects that we think are interesting. But also we're going to bring in some folks who work on different parts of Thunderbird. And so at some point, we'll probably talk to Katie over at K9.
And I'm excited to talk to some of the other core developers in the project who have their own unique insights about all the the work that goes into creating such a robust application of Thunderbird. Jason: We really appreciate everyone who who uses Thunderbird, who shares that they use it, who contributes in any way, whether that's, you know, getting it set up for a friend or an in-law contributing translations, which is a is a big deal.
There's, you know, Thunderbird is available in dozens of different languages doing testing. There are so many ways that that our Thunderbird community makes a huge positive impact and we think just thank everybody immensely for, for doing that. And yeah, anyway, thanks for being on the Thunderbird journey with us and we'll see you around for we'll see you for episode two in about a month.