Winter Book Club: Octavia Butler’s Visionary Fiction

This message comes from Warpy Parker. Prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Glasses designed in-house from premium materials starting at just$95, including prescription lenses.

Stop by a Warby Parker store near you. Welcome back to Through Line Book Club. Today we're talking about one of our favorite authors, Octavia Butler. Does it ever seem to you that there are people among us who hold up the sky and make the rivers flow? People who are just like other people, just like the rest of us, only different.

They're the structural beams in the house we all share, the house that has a sky for a roof. And usually they don't want to call attention to themselves. They just want to be who they are, do what they do with as little interference as possible. Octavia comes to my mind as first among that group of people. In her books she showed us the horrors and the great good that humans can create and the choices that she made in her books and in her life always gave us new ways of seeing.

She was a beacon of hope. Even when she wasn't trying. These novels are not prophetic. These novels are cautionary tales. These novels are if we are not careful you know, if we carry on as we have been, this is what we w might wind up with. You have to think about what kind of world you want to live in. And I don't think there is a person alive who would want to live in the world that I've written about. But we can arrange it.

The problems that I write about are problems that we can do something about. That's that's why I write about them. All that you talk about. You're listening to Through Line from NPR. changes you. Will we go back in time? The only lasting truth is change. To understand the present. God is change. Today. Octavia Butler's World. All that you touched. All that you change changes you. The only last thing. God is change. I found myself over the years returning to the

To this quote over and over. It helps me so much when change comes and is unexpected, and especially when change comes and is undesired. My name is Adrian Marie Brown. And an Octavia Butler scholar. Adrian Marie Brown is one of a growing group of Octavia's quote unquote children, writers. thinkers, scholars, activists who see themselves as her spiritual descendants in a way, and who look to Octavia Butler as a leader, a guide.

In that vein, Adrian Marie Brown co-edited a book called Octavia's Brood, and she co-hosts a podcast called Octavia's Parables. I am actually so enthralled with Butler's thinking that I have a tattoo. That runs down my left arm, starts up on my shoulder. And it's just my own handwriting. I wrote out this quote. That quote: all that you touch, you change. The Is change. God is change. These lines appear in Octavia Butler's

And some would say prophetic novel, parable of the sewer. They also appear on Adrian's arm. How do I affect change in ways that allow for change to time? And help me to improve, help me to become a little bit more than a little bit.

Amen. Much of Adrian's work, ink and worldview is inspired by Octavian's who wrote what Adrian calls visionary fiction. Visionary fiction writing is a practice we can use to imagine and prepare for the future together. generate the ideas that we want to see more of in the world. She gives us the practice and then she gives us case study after case study. Our imaginary futures and how

Her case studies being her many novels. Novels like Kindred, a story about a young black woman living in California in the 1970s, who's pulled back in time to Antebella, Maryland, and forced to be a little bit of a little bit of Reckon with a life of slavery. Or Wildseed, a story about two African immortals.

Who can shapeshift and travel across centuries and continents? And then there's Parable of the Sower, the story of a young woman trying to survive in a post-apocalyptic world set in the near future, which happens to now be. Well, our present. The approach that she used of looking at the world around her and projecting into the future. What happens if What happens if we don't turn our attention to the climate crisis? What happens if we don't Really, really content with the first time.

Comfort with inequality. What happens? Octavia Butler stays with you. Once you've experienced one of her written worlds, she's always showing up in your own, hiding out in your periphery, saying, See, I told you. And she did. She saw things, turned them into stories, and in doing so, built new worlds from the old. As her former editor Dan Simon said at the very top, Octavia held up the sky and made the rivers flow. And forged new paths.

Octavia was among a small group of black science fiction writers to get published. Causing some to call her the mother of Afro-Futurism, an open-ended genre combining science fiction, fantasy, and history to imagine a liberated future through a black lens. She wrote more than a dozen books, essays, and short stories. She was the first black woman to receive both the Nebula and Hugo Awards, the highest honors in the science fiction and fantasy genres.

And she was the first science fiction writer to win a MacArthur Genius grant. She was prolific from the nineteen seventies up until her untimely death in two thousand six. This star power is rooted in her ability to weave in and out of the past, present, and future, to reveal striking and often devastating parallels.

to the world we live in today. There's nothing terrifying that Octavia writes about that we're not experiencing right now, at least when she's writing about things happening on Earth. Well, I think of the sixties as the decade of of attempting to come together. Nineties is the decade of disintegration, I'm sad to say. And the twenty twenties is the decade of of I call it the burn. This does not mean that it's the end of the world or even the end of the US. Things are just a lot worse.

But Octavia Butler's work wasn't all doom and gloom. For every society that perished in her books came a story of survival, of repair. And with each dire warning came a signal of hope, a reason to keep going. And something to believe in so strongly, you might as well tattoo it on your arm. In turn, she gave us a new kind of science fiction, not only for being one of the first writers to use history to talk about the future.

And not only for being one of the first black women to do it, but for writing herself in. I made up my own stories to um put myself in them. Today on the show, we dive into the mind of Octavia Butler, how she used the past to predict the future, and why her insights might be more relevant than ever. Producer Lane Kaplan Levinson takes it from here after the break. I'm Deedra White. I'm calling from Lexington, Kentucky, and you're listening to Through Line at MPR.

This message comes from BetterHelp. The new year isn't about doing more, it's about carrying less. Therapy can help you unpack what's been heavy and bring more clarity, calm, and perspective into twenty twenty six. It's a small act that can lead to big relief and real perspective for the year ahead. You can't step into a lighter version of yourself without leaving behind what's been weighing you down. Visit betterhelp.com slash NPR for ten percent off.

This message comes from NetSuite. Every business is asking, how can they make AI work for them? No more waiting. With NetSuite by Oracle, you can put AI to work today. Trusted by over forty three thousand businesses. It's the unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM into a single source of truth. That connected data is what makes your AI smarter, helping you make fast decisions.

Right now, get the business guide, Demystifying AI, free at netsuite.com slash storage. This message comes from Carvana, who makes car selling easy. Enter your license plate or VIN, get a real offer in minutes, and have your car picked up from your door. Sell your car the easy way with Carvana. Pickup fee may apply.

Part one Time Traveler. I felt sweat on my face mingling with silent tears of frustration and anger. My back had already begun to ache dully, and I felt dully ashamed. Slavery was a long, slow process of dulling kindred. I'm an only child and I had no idea how to get along with other children. And also, I was a strange kid who'd learned to um stay by herself and make things up. Do you get along better with people now? I can fake it. Octavia E. Butler was a loner.

She had a really interesting solitary existence as an only child. She spent a lot of time alone. She was super, super shy, very introverted. She was tall, she was awkward, she was quiet. And she was very, very poor. Her mom would have to decide like what kind of shoes she would buy her child. Like she one time I think bought her church shoes and she would have to wear her church shoes all the time. So she was, I think, kind of traumatized by that poverty.

My name is Ayana Jameson. I'm the founder and director of the Octavia E. Butler Legacy Network. I teach ethnic studies at Cal Poly Pomona and I live in Southern California and I am an expert in Octavia E. Butler's life and I work to try to highlight those who are upholding her legacy. Octavia Butler was also from Southern California. She was born in Pasadena in nineteen forty seven.

Her own family migrated from Louisiana to California in nineteen thirty. These were people who survived the depression. Who went hungry because of the depression? Who left Louisiana and came to California and lived on very little because of the depression. Her father passed away when she was a toddler. Her mother was

Sh like she saw her mother going into back doors, or people talking about her as if she weren't there, and that it really made an impression on her. She cleaned houses most of her life and she said, Unless you want to be what I am, you'd better get that education. And um I would take a look at her life and and uh dive back in. Ayana and Octavia were born a generation apart, but have similar backgrounds. My mom's the same age as Ruby Bridges.

And there was segregated schools in California much later than Brown versus Board of Education. And that's the California that my grandparents came to. And this is the California that Octavia grew up in. And so when Ayana discovered Octavia while in grad school, she had the experience of reading things she'd never read before, things that had to do with her. Octavia's books felt way more relevant than what she was being assigned in school. Freud, young, or as Ayana puts it, old dead white men.

It was like putting those authors to be the epitome of what's universal and I really chafed at that. And I really felt that it didn't reflect my experience and it was a really false dichotomy. I was like, okay, I need to read something by someone who includes me in their understanding of universal. I need to read something that helps to soothe all of the trauma that I'm experiencing.

Some of that trauma was coming from Ayana's day job she had at the same time she was getting her degree, working in a middle school. Like, I was just a long-term substitute teacher, but like students were bringing weapons to my class. students, brothers were gunned down by police and then they came to school the next day. And so I was dealing with things that were like way above my pay grade. So where did she go to decompress? Borders.

This is how old I am. I'm borders years old. Like I used to go on dates and borders and there was the bargain section. I know. You're laughing, but you know that It is a thing. Yes. I mean, I weep when I pass by the one in Old Town Passadine. So in any case I picked up Book and I ended up reading one of her short stories. And I was like, Wow, this woman is really.

Brilliant, that story really stayed with me. And led her down the Octavia rabbit hole. The more of Octavia's fiction she read, the more she could apply to her life. Her reality. I used her books like even more than I was using the things I learned in psychology in order to just help my students get by. And I grew up in the same neighborhood as them and I walked the same streets, I was, you know, street harassed in the same ways. So a lot of my own trauma got ignited, right?

I was like time traveling, like this is the definition of Afrofuturism, I feel like. I was a teacher with teachers I had been taught by, but I was a an adult. And so I was like myself as a twelve year old, myself as a twenty something And myself like gr like d reliving my trauma and realizing that I was there on that campus, trying to go back and save myself.

And I feel like when I started learning more about Octavia's life, her books are also about saving herself and transforming herself and healing herself. Healing herself and the world at the same time. And that's like what really snatched me into this work. And it's taken over my entire life in the best possible way. Octavia became Ayana's positive obsession, a term Octavia coined herself. She says that a positive obsession is like a compulsion that you cannot stop.

It's something that you you keep doing that you're driven to do, even though you know it's not reasonable for you to continue to do it, and that an obsession could be positive. And Octavia's positive obsession was writing. It's it's pretty much my religion, I think. I didn't really know how to get along with other kids, but I knew how to make little worlds of my own. And that's what I did for my amusement.

Uh I wrote I told myself stories. I've been telling myself stories since I was four years old. When I was ten, I began writing them down. Well, the famous story is that she was watching television and she saw a Devil Girl from Mars. A British sci-fi film from the 50s. A frightening, strange shape descending from outer space with relentless purpose. Where did it come from? And what did it want of us? And then she turned off the television and thought like that. And then she started trying.

Octavia published her first novel, Pattern Master, in nineteen seventy six, shortly before her thirtieth birthday. It takes place in the distant future and involves telepaths, human mutation, and an alien pandemic. She sold the first book pretty quickly, and it got good press. Albeit some of it condescending. Well you're a hell of a writer, kiddo.

Uh there are there are not many people but that foolery didn't stop her. Pattern Master was the first book in her five part patternist series, and she quickly pumped out the second and third volumes. But then, in nineteen seventy-nine, she broke from the series to write something incredibly different.

So different that publishers didn't know what to do with it. When I tried to sell Kindred, that really gave me trouble because um nobody wanted to buy it. Um I had about fifteen rejections. She calls kindred a grim fantasy. It's not even really science fiction. It takes place in the present, uh in what was the present at the time, and it's going between nineteen seventy six Antebelle, Maryland. A slight turn from a world ravaged by an alien virus.

Kindred centers around a young woman named Dana. And Dana's is snatched back in time in order to save the white ancestor who would rape her many times removed great grandmother in order for her to exist and so was based on the lives of her mother and grandmother and the lives that they lived in Louisiana, like on a sugar plantation, I think as sharecroppers, and it was based on knowing what they suffered and the things that they had to go through in order for her to even exist in the present.

It's uh something that I got an idea for when I was in college. A friend who he was kind of our historian because he knew so much about black history. um said something that I thought indicated that he didn't know as much as I had believed. He said, I wish I could kill all these old people.

who have uh old black people who've held us back for so long, but I can't because I'd have to start with my own parents. Oh my goodness. And um I thought, well gee, he knows a lot of Facts and figures, but he doesn't really understand or feel the realities of history. She knew that there were things that you'd had to do to compromise, but as long as you survive, That there was something to be gained. from surviving for future generations.

And so she, you know, I don't know how much she argued with him, but she wrote out that anger and that humiliation and frustration and ignorance of what he said in an entire book. I wrote kindred to make people I hope feel history as opposed merely to knowing facts of history. Um, it seemed important to me to get that kind of of emotion, the extra feeling, the awareness of what it might have been like to be a slave, to feel it on your own skin, so to speak.

And and to you know, to to understand the lack of control of of your own fate that a slave suffers. I closed my eyes and saw the children playing their game again. The ease seems so frightening, I said. Now I see why. What? The ease, us, the children. I never realized how easily people could be trained to accept. She's talking about like how but it's much worse than anything she read about in history books.

That was one of the things that she was trying to demonstrate to that classmate of hers. It's like, you don't know what you're saying by saying you kill your parents. I was really going not so much for factual understanding but for emotional understanding. I went down the hall and Wondering why I hadn't tried to defend myself. At least tried. Was I getting so used to being submissive?

She used to feel ashamed of her mother being a maid, but then she also realized that her mother suffered those humiliations in order for her to eat. their existence and their the things that they did in order to survive. were very much present and who she was, who she was becoming. I read something about how that

this history that was so directly connected to her own family. Oh, absolutely. And I think Octavia felt that Her mother and her grandmother were really the archetypal heroines or heroes that were not being written about, that they had real heroics and real survival because they were still here. She's saying, I think, that the past is not past, that it's present, and everything happening in the present is simultaneously rooted in the past. It's not like you can erase one.

She knew that she needed to write it, and there was something really pressing on her soul. Yeah. She's writing things that haven't been written before. Just three years into her career, Octavia made it clear that she didn't fit into any one genre, that she wasn't interested in playing by the rules, and that she had a lot more to say. Her next book would only break more boundaries, challenging the limits of who and what we can become.

Hi, this is Tony in Montreux, Switzerland. Thanks for helping me understand the present by opening my eyes to the past. Support for this podcast and the following message come from strawberry.me Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Are you stuck in a job you've outgrown or never wanted in the first place? Are your reasons for staying really just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from strawberry.me help you get unstuck.

Discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your corner and get fifty percent off your first coaching session at strawberry.me slash NPR. This message comes from Lisa. From night one, you'll feel the difference. Premium materials that deliver serious comfort and full body support. Go to Lisa.com for 25% off mattresses, plus get an extra$50 off with promo code NPR.

Hey, it's Rund. In this month's Through Line Plus episode, our producers take us behind the scenes of making our episode on the first transatlantic cable. To listen to these insider bonus episodes every month, sign up for ThruLinePlus at plus.npr.org slash throughline.

Part two Shapeshifter Ears and eyes were far sharper than those of other people. She had increased their sensitivity deliberately after the first time men came stalking her, their machetes ready, their intentions clear. She had had to kill seven times on that terrible day, seven frightened men who had Could have been spared, and she had nearly died herself, all because she let people come upon her unnoticed. Never again. Wildseed.

Why science fiction? Because there are no closed doors, no walls. You can look at, examine, play with, anything. Absolutely anything. That is, if you could get in the door in the first place. Octavia was trying to break onto the scene in the nineteen seventies, when most sci-fi writers were cold, white, and male, to put it bluntly. This is Netty O'Corophore. I am a science fiction and fantasy writer of the African futurists and African Jujuist strain.

African futurism is a subcategory of sci-fi. It's similar to Afro futurism, but it's more deeply rooted in African culture, history, and perspective. It's concerned with Yeah. It's interested in technology and it's centered on and predominantly written by people of African descent, um, black people. It is about future visions and imaginings of Africa, but it's very connected to the past, the culture, the history, all of that. And African Jujuism is a subcategory of fantasy.

That respectfully acknowledges the seamless blend of true existing African spiritualities and cosmologies with the imaginative. So it it understands that. Some of these things may be real. Some of these things are believed by people. They are part of people's worldviews. And those things, and and the reason why I wanted to come up with this word was because of this idea. Um African spiritualities and cosmologies. Less than I mean you look at colonialism and what I'm gonna do.

to African spiritualities and cosmologies and it and it's highly problematic. So you invented that term? Yes. That's amazing. These strains of sci-fi and fantasy that Nettie created are a far cry from the quote-unquote classic science fiction strains she grew up with. Authors like Arthur C. Clarke, Ben Bova, Isaac Oscar, doesn't want a space odyssey, I robot. Star Trek.

All that. It wasn't just about like being white and male, but like there was it like an element of colonialism and imperialism that would just run like that thread would run through the themes of the story. And I found it a I I found it very difficult to relate to that.

When you're reading about worlds that are set in the future, you can see it. where you feel like you wouldn't even exist. You know, like you couldn't exist in that world. That's a different feeling. Are there things that bothered you about the science fiction books that you read when you were F first starting to read them. Yes. I wasn't in them. Yeah, right. Right.

That's what Octavia read growing up and that's what for the most part her contemporaries were still writing. But there was also Samuel Delaney. Samuel Delaney, a black science fiction writer who published his first novel, The Jewels of Apdor, in nineteen sixty two, a time when it came to black sci-fi writers. There was only Samuel Delaney. It's really only Samuel Delaney. And that was what Octavio was coming into.

Why do you suppose there aren't more black female science fiction writers? Uh probably because there aren't more. Uh people do what they say other people doing. And if you look around and you don't see very many people who look like you doing something, you worry that maybe there's a good reason for that and you go and do something else. I don't have any sense. I didn't do that.

I looked around and and saw that there weren't very many people doing what I wanted to do and it didn't matter. I still wanted to do it. Netty could relate. through some kind of trauma and for me that's what it was. Nettie was a star athlete, tennis and track and field. She had 22 medals, she had a state championship, and she also had scoliosis. And it got progressively worse, and I had to have the surgery, and there was a small percent chance of paralysis.

And I was in that small percent. So when they did the surgery, I woke up paralyzed. So I was a paralyzed. It was 1993. She spent the whole summer after her freshman year of college literally relearning how to walk. So it was like night and day. A few years later, still on the long recovery path, her parents took her on a trip to their homeland, Nigeria. We'd spent part of our time in Lagos. Fast. And then we'd spend the other half in the southeast, which was more rural.

I started seeing them showing up. very rural places where you would see very traditional images like you know women carrying water, all those things. With cell phones present. Of tapping the sap to make palm wine, they'd be in the tree, you know, sticking the straw in there and then leaning back on the

Answer their cell phone. And I was like, this is nuts. You know, this is this is like the past and the present and the all together and i and it wasn't like conflicting it was like it was in harmony So it's like These things, you know, wh I was going through all of that, we still traveled to Nigeria. And I still had those experiences. So it all in my mind. Yeah. And just it sounds like that you were an athlete. And then you lose that part of your Yeah, it's a lot of identity shifting.

And the way that I kept myself sane was to start And from that point on I haven't stopped writing since. And that feeling that she was simultaneously time traveling throughout her own body and her own culture. Got her interested in sci-fi and Afrofuturism and her own strains of African futurism and Jujuism. So she started writing it, even though she had never read anything like it by anyone else.

Then in 2001 she got into a well-known sci-fi workshop, the Clarion Writers Workshop. In fact, the same workshop Octavia Butler had once attended and even taught at. But Nettie didn't know that. She had never heard of Octavia Butler until one day when the workshop took a field trip to a local bookstore.

Spoiler alert, it may or may not have been borders. Of course, we all went to science fiction and fantasy section. And as we're going through that section, I stopped because I saw something that I And on the cover was a black woman. And that's what stopped me, because up until that day I had never gone through the science fiction and fantasy section and seen a cover with a black person on the cover. It caught my eye immediately. Where I'm like, what is

And I immediately just picked it up and bought it. As I didn't even look at what it was about or anything. I just picked it up and bought it. I'm like, I just want this book. And that book turned out to be Wildseed by Octavia Butler. You exist and you are different. That was enough to attract me. Now tell me who you are. You must be the only man in this country who has not heard of me. I am Anyanmu.

He repeated her name and glanced upward, understanding. Sun her name meant, An Yan Ru, the sun And so that night I opened it up and read it. I started reading and my mind was even blown even further because it was like suddenly I'm reading this book and I see the name Anyawoo and I know what anyawo means. I know how to pronounce anyawoo. It's an e-

Igbo name, it means the eye of the sun, and I and I'm Igbo. One of Nigeria's indigenous groups. And so this was about an Igbo woman in pre-colonial Nigeria, before it was Nigeria, who doesn't die, who is immortal. Through the transatlantic slave trade like middle passage. While she's alive. You know, and she c and this is a character who carries cross the timeline. And I'm like This was a book that I picked up in the science fiction and fantasy section with an Ebo woman's name.

Since beginning of the bo I was like, oh my god. Like that feeling, I just never I had never experienced it before. I've been waiting to read something like that for how It was just it was cathartic to me. It was just being in the in that at that moment. Where I'm just trying to figure out, it's not even trying to figure out. I knew what I was, you know, I knew what it is that I was writing, I knew it. I just,

I just needed something. You know, I needed something. And and discovering Octavia in that moment was was exactly what I needed. Nettie was excited. So what did she do with all that excitement after finding her new favorite author? She called her. The first thing I thought was, Oh, if she taught here then I could talk to her. I could talk to her. So I went to the organizers of Clary and it was like, Can you put can I talk to Octavia?

And next thing you know, I was on the phone with Octavia. And she basically blacked out. I don't even remember what we talked about. I just remember thinking, What am I doing? Like I'm talking to Octavi I don't remember anything I said. I remember though the impact. Like like hearing her voice, I'm like, oh, this is a powerful person. That was it. Her voice was low and like commanding, but she's not commanding. You know, like it's like

You know people who have like this this you know, they're they're a commanding presence but they don't try to be. They just are. Like she's talking and she doesn't need to raise her voice, but you're listening. Exactly. Exactly. I think I had more fun writing.

wild seed than I had writing anything else. And I think it was partly because I was so relieved to have written Kindred. Wildseed was the next book Octavia wrote after Kindred, as a return to her Paterness series, and in some ways as a gift to herself. Is about these immortal Africans who end up coming to the new world, and they have these different qualities and abilities. that are really out of this world. The two immortals are named Anyanwu and Doro. Anyanwu is a scientist

Who can control her own body and heal herself and heal other people. She controls her fertility. She creates medicines in her body to inject into other people and who can literally change shape into any other living thing. It's so hot. Female animal, being pursued by persistent males, but only in her true woman sheep could she remember being seriously hurt by males, men. Swimming with the dolphins was like being with another. A friendly people, no slavers with brands.

She can transform into a bird and fly or into a dolphin and swim or into another person. She can transform her body into the body of a male person and she can experience desire and and love and sex. in whatever kind of gender as whatever race, but still always defaults back to her black woman self. Her African woman self on Yanru. And then there's Doro. Doro is a mad scientist. He's breeding certain kinds of people together.

Because he wants to basically generate children who won't die. And this is something Anyanwoo wants and they end up sort of being a couple, but they're adversaries. She's always trying to create family and home and community and nurture the people around her and he's always trying to control them and manipulate them and push them and threaten them. Um and she will not stand for that.

Octavia has split these very distinct parts of a whole Oh no no no no no. I don't write about good and evil with this this enormous dichotomy. I write about people. I write about people doing the kinds of things that people do. And I mean, I I think even the worst of us doesn't just set out to be evil. So when you're reading it, you're like

Oh, but it's so appealing to be able to have the ultimate control over people and intimidate them into doing what you want. It's so complicated. It's not like Um good guys and bad guys, she really rejects binaries in so many ways. People set out to get something, they set out to defend themselves from something. They are frightened, perhaps.

Um they set out because they believe their way is is is the best way the uh t to perhaps the enforce their way on other people. But no, I I don't write about good and evil. She was definitely talking about gender. I think she was definitely talking about structures. structures of sex and gender and complicating them and asking what is it to be male? What is it to be female? Are some of those definitions a little rigid?

My characters who are often black and female behave as though they have no limitations. She rejected racial inferiority or gender norms that would have restricted her, that didn't fit whatever the so-called universal or like what the dominant culture was doing. The whole story kind of Question. about gender, about identity. About sex, about hierarchy. Remember, Wildseed was written in nineteen eighty.

So ideas around gender fluidity and queer sex were far from mainstream. This was bold stuff. And if you read it and you dug it, you probably started thinking about the world in new ways. Thinking about yourself in new ways. You end up being in the mind and the bodies of those characters and you experience change, transformation, and healing from the inside, because that's what Anyanwu is doing. And so she got to explore that in her writing. It wasn't just wild seasons like almost all

Works had that this ability to leave you changed. You know, you read it and you're like, okay, I don't think the same way. I thought before. And like for me, I need I needed that process, especially in my late twenties. There were just issues that I that I would was interested in, but I didn't have the um I didn't have the tools to unpack them and properly interrogate them. I did not have the tools.

And Octavia Butler gave me those tools in so many ways to to interrogate those things and in in a in a comfortable way because it was through through literature. And so I didn't have to like talk to anybody. It was like the book and I talking together and then me just having my crisis by myself. And and yeah, her her work did that. I would walk away from almost every single one of her novels and short stories just changed.

And there's another reason. It comes from another conversation Nettie had with Octavia years after that first time that she called her up all starry-eyed. In this conversation, she wanted to know what it was like for Octavia to write about the Igbo people in Nigeria. She said that she didn't want to spend too much time there because she had never been to Nigeria and she didn't feel like she knew the culture well enough. And so now flash forward years later where I'm adapting it.

I can remember that conversation and and how she said she'd wish she could have delved deeper into all of that, but she just didn't feel like she could. And so now w while we're adapting it, I'm just like, okay, well Let's do that. That's incredible. It's it was like this moment of giving you her blessing essentially to to expand upon something where she knew her own limitations. Yeah, it's that's a good feeling. That's a good feeling. Wild Sea doesn't pigeonhole itself by making absolute

Instead, it gets you to question things that society pigeonholes and puts as binaries, man and woman, good and evil, darkness and light. But the darkness is really dark and and it it goes, it goes there. where it needs to go, but that there's joy and there's Which is I think which is that balance is really important. A balance Octavia wrestled with in her own work.

In in her own life. I don't know how we're going to end up. Well, the odd thing about my books is even though there is a lot There is always hope in the world. When we come back, Octavia writes the Parables series and Resilience to the ultimate. Hi, my name is Matt Pope from Brighton in England and you're listening to Thru Line on MPR. This message comes from homes.com. When you're home shopping as a parent, you have lots of questions about local schools.

That's why each listing on homes dot com includes extensive reports on local schools, including photos, parent reviews, student-teacher ratio, school rankings, and more. The information is from multiple trusted sources and curated by a dedicated in-house research team. It's also you can make the right decision for your family. Homes.com, we've done your homework. This message comes from NPR sponsor Charles Schwab with its original podcast on investing.

Each week, you'll get thoughtful, in-depth analysis of both the stock and the bond markets. Listen today and subscribe at Schwab.com slash on investing or wherever you get your podcasts. It is hard to get a house. Getting that down payment is not a good one. Brutal!

You shipped off to Djibouti to afford a down payment for a house? Yes, sir. Hundred percent. On Planet Money, the high price of housing. What the Trump administration is trying to do about it, and will it work? Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcast.

Part three Power Seeker All struggles are essentially power struggles. Who will rule? Who will lead? Who will define and Refine, confine, design, who will dominate? All struggles are essentially power struggles, and most are no more intellectual than two ramps knocking their heads I don't recall ever having wanted desperately to be a black woman science fiction writer. I wanted to be a writer. And my attitude was I am a black woman.

And if it doesn't come out in the stories, I can't imagine why. It's there. So it's it's not something I'm focusing on. It's it's just there. It's part of it's me. By the early 1990s, Octavia Butler had cemented a place for herself in the white straight dude-dominated genre. She had received both Hugo and Nebula awards, the highest honors in the sci-fi and fantasy world. But she was resistant to the labels that were starting to stick. Labels bore the heck out of me.

I realized that if I wrote a biography of my mother, somebody would put the word science fiction on it. Or at least put it in that section of the store. And she wasn't just called a science fiction writer. She was being called a black science fiction writer. Are you cr trying to create a new black mythology? No. You're not w what then is central to what you want to say about race? Do I want to say something central about race, aside from, hey, we're here.

But while she was dodging these titles, black, feminist, and queer audiences were embracing her edgy explorations of race, sex, and gender. She was complicating traditional power structures and centering marginalized voices. So the labels persisted. She was Octavia the Feminist, Octavia the Afrofuturist, Octavia the Radical. And then her newest book brought her a whole new reputation on a whole nother level. Octavia the Prophet.

All that you touch, you change. All that you change changes you. The only lasting truth is change. God is change. Earth Seed, the Book of the Living, Verse one, Parable of the Sower. So Parable of the Sower is actually a book that was written where the protagonist Lauren Oya Olomina is this girl who lives in this place called Robledo, which is uh stands in for Pasadena. And she is about fifteen years old, turning sixteen in this book, so it's a coming of age novel.

But this isn't your catcher in the rye or to kill a mockingbird type of coming-of-age story. Parable of the Sower is your the apocalypse is right now coming-of-age story. And this time, there were no aliens, there was no time travel, there were no women turning into dolphins. There was merely a teenage girl in the year 2024 watching society crumble before her very eyes and desperate to find a way to survive. And what was Octavia's inspiration for the story?

The news. Welfare is another of our major problems. We Humane and a general lived in California for most of her life and had watched the state's political course lean more and more conservative. In the seventies, when she was starting her career, Ronald Reagan was governor. We accept without reservation our obligation to help the disabled, the agent. A man who, even before he was president, was pretty open about being against the idea of people funding the government, aka taxes.

And government funding the people. But we are not going to perpetuate poverty by substituting a permanent dole for a paycheck. Reagan would go on to become president in 1981 and repeated his yes his famous campaign slogan when he accepted the nomination as the Republican candidate. For those who've abandoned hope. Thank you. We'll restore hope and we'll welcome them into a great national crusade to make America great again.

Which, by the way, is also the slogan of the president in the parable series. Behind her typewriter, Octavia was paying close attention to where the country was headed and what the government was and wasn't willing to pay for. We were getting to that point where we were more we're thinking more about um the building of prisons than of schools and libraries.

This was around the time when Prop 187 passed, a California law that Octavia later called fantastically stupid. That was going through the legislature. To bar undocumented folks from like accessing health care and education. It was an effort to save taxpayer dollars. By denying public services to undocumented іммігрант, десь фол викан а месяч то Вашингтон то стоп ілигал іммігрант би пасси.

Proposition 187, the SOS initiative. SOS, the Save Our State Initiative. She said, oh, you want a bunch of like uneducated sick people who can't go to the emergency room because they're undocumented? And she's like, okay, let's extrapolate from there. What happens when another group in society gets cut off? And then another group and another.

Who survives? What if there was no garbage collection? What if the fire department didn't come when your house started to burn down? What if the police only took bribes to look for your loved ones when they got snatched? What if you couldn't go to the hospital? What if there's no gasoline? What if water became scarce? She showed the way of using the news and current events and meticulous research

and coming up with something that's so-called fictional, but apocalypse has already happened to someone in this timeline. Like she asked what if, and then she showed us how. And that's what Parable of the Sower is.

Things have just carried on. Slowly run down. There's no particular hideous disaster to account for it. A little like the Soviet Union, but since we have farther to fall, it hurts more when we hit bottom. And in Parable of the Sower, we hit bottom. By the year twenty twenty four, Southern California and much of the nation has become a wasteland. Society is pretty much uh broken. People are living in walled communities.

and risking their lives whenever they go out. There are a lot of reasons for this. Drugs of course and deterioration of public education. Their their problems now, they become disasters because they're not they're not attended to. Everyone has guns, no one has jobs, and things like T V, computers, phones, those are luxuries of the past. there is uh an even greater risk poor gap than we've got now, for instance.

And that does seem to be the the gap does seem to be widening and there are more and more poor people and there are the few rich people who are richer than ever. And so in the novel there are people who work as hard as they can, but have to choose between living in a house and eating. And they live on the sidewalk. And to top it all off, global warming is basically a character. She was researching and writing about global warming.

before people were talking about it in public and she was like, It's gonna have consequences and those consequences are demonstrated in this book. I wanna talk about what's gonna happen if we keep doing what we've been doing. if we keep um recklessly endangering the environment, if we keep uh paying no attention to um economic realities, if we keep paying no attention to educational needs, if we keep doing a lot of the things that are hurting us now.

And um that's what I wound up writing about, and everything else just kind of fell into place. People are setting fires to get rid of whomever they dislike, from personal enemies to anyone who looks or sounds foreign or racially different. People are setting fires because they are frustrated. Angry, hopeless. They have no power to improve their lives, but they have the power to make others even more miserable. And the only way to prove to yourself that you have power is to use it.

According to Octavia, all of these issues, all of these ignorances, came from one fundamental human paradox. That human beings are intelligent, but also that they are hierarchical, and that their hierarchical tendencies are a lot older than their intelligence and are the hierarchical tendencies are sometimes in charge. we do seem sometimes much more interested in one upping each other, one upping one country over the other, than in um doing ourselves some long term good.

In other words, it's all about power. One of the reasons I got into writing about power was because I grew up feeling that I didn't have any. And neither did 15-year-old Lauren Olamina, the protagonist in the story. But she quickly realized that no one in power was gonna protect her. If she was gonna survive, she'd have to step into her own. Parable of the sewer was difficult because I didn't much like my character originally, because she had to be a power seeker.

I had gotten the idea from some of the politicians I'd run across that uh people who wanted power should perhaps not have it. Couldn't really be trusted with it. And I I had a character here who wanted power and I had to bring myself to realize that power Like money, like education, like technology, like any number of other things, it's just a tool. And what you do with it.

is what matters. Octavia's character Lauren knew that because she needed power, she needed people. There's power in numbers, power in community. She was a preacher's daughter and saw her father's ability to bring people together through religion. So she began to preach. Not her father's religion, but her own. A new religion she called Urseed.

I am Ursseed. Anyone can be. Someday, I think there will be a lot of us. And I think we'll have to seed ourselves farther and farther from this dying place. Earthseed is based on the idea that to survive in a changing, uncertain world, you need to be able to adapt. You need to be resilient.

Lauren wrote her convictions into verse and realized that in these verses were lessons that people could live by. She realized she had found a leader, herself. When I got through Parable of the Sower, I got to the point where I liked my character far too much. Lauren Olomina became the first power seeker Butler could finally trust.

and others did too. She slowly grew a following of people willing to join her in the pursuit for a new life, a new beginning. Lorna Oya Olamina, this adolescent young adult It's really, I think, Butler's belief system and the things that she lived by, and she's writing them out and she's offering them to us.

Offerings on how to sustain yourself in an unsustainable world, how to survive fascist governments, how to survive wildfires, how to survive drug epidemics, how to survive police brutality, how to survive poverty. How to survive. You know, the world that she's depicting in Parable of the Sower, it feels so much like that's what we're experiencing now. I still can't read Parable of the Sower. I mean, like, Parable, I I can't read it. Like, even just looking at the title.

It just makes me nervous. It's nervous. It's set around now. We've got like corporate greed, we've got climate change, we've got, you know, the government falling apart. I mean, do I need to go there? Oh god. It's just so it's too familiar. It's too familiar. Do you think she saw herself as prophetic? Oh absolutely not. She did not predict the future. She observed what was happening around her

And then she extrapolated from what she knew. I hope they're not prophecy because I don't want to live in that world. But I also think that some writers are on to something and they've they've uh tapped into something. And I I believe in mystical aspects. So th I wouldn't call anyone a prophet per se, but I do think that that Octavia was tapping into something. Was tapping into something and she was channeling it. And I think that it's okay to acknowledge that and to hear and to hear that.

At the end of the day, it might not really matter if Octavia was all-knowing or just paying attention. The point is that, as dire as her imagined futures could be, And as much as her work can feel a little too real, especially right now, both Ayana and Netty also see Octavia's work as a beacon of hope. She says she was a pessimist, but I think she was really a pragmatist.

I think she was so pragmatic that people called her pessimistic, but there are always these little kernels of hope in her writing. There are always this open ended possibility that even if things look bleak right where we're standing, it's not magically all going to get better, but we're still going to be together and we can still choose our family and our loved ones.

uh we can still choose to do things that will add to our collective survival instead of just whatever is supposed to be our individual bounty of the things we've acquired and the things we've amassed. That there is another way to be in this world. And that's what I find so healing and so transformational. The world is full of painful stories. Sometimes it seems as though there aren't any other kind. And yet I found myself thinking how beautiful that glint of water was through the trees.

Parable of the Sower made Octavia Butler the first science fiction writer to win a MacArthur Genius grant. A decade later, while working on her third novel for the Parable series, she fell outside her home and died. She was only 58 years old. The moment that she passed, there was so much that was that was lost. And um I know that hurt. What does it mean?

those who who come after her, you know, it means it means so much. It means like it she just her doing what she did just kind of like a alerted to others th of the existence of a d whole you know, plethora of stories, which really shouldn't be the case, but that is what the c that is the case. It's like it it signaled um the existence of all this.

so much you know and she ushered that in and that's how she really upended science fiction she was there she was present and she pretty much opened doors for the rest of us It makes me feel like I'm part of history. I'm part of the future, and I am my ancestors' wildest dream. She dreamed me up in a way. You know, she's allowed me to do work that even my grandparents couldn't have envisioned for one of their relatives.

Octavia E. Buller once wrote, I'm a fifty-three year old writer who can remember being a ten year old writer and who expects someday to be an eighty year old writer. I'm also comfortably asocial, a hermit in the middle of Seattle, a pessimist, if I'm not careful, a feminist, a black, a former Baptist, an oil and water combination of ambition, laziness, insecurity, certainty, And drive. I have to do the thing that it's important for me to do. I'm basically a storyteller.

And I have um things that seem important to me. I mentioned the uh the emotional reality of history, I mentioned the uh the news items that we seem to be um ignoring so completely. These are the things that reach me. And whatever else happens, happens. That's it for this week's show. I'm Ramteen Arav Louis. I'm Randavdirfatah, and you've been listening to Through Line from NPR. This episode was produced by me.

Me and Jamie York. Lawrence Wu. Lane Kaplan Levinson. Julie Kane. Victor Ibez. Heart Shaw. Fact-checking for this episode was done by Kevin Vocal. to Adrian Marie Brown for reading all the passages from Octavia. Facebook that you heard throughout the episode. Adrienne has two podcasts, Octavia's Parables, which she co hosts with Toshi Reagan

and how to survive the end of the world, which she co-hosts with her sister Autumn. Check them out. Thanks to WHYY's Fresh Air with Terry Gross for the use of the interview with Octavia Butler. Thanks also to Nisi Shaw and Steve Barnes, both sci-fi writers and friends of Octavia's, who shared their insights and memories with us that helped shape this episode. And thanks also to

Donovan, Yolanda Sanguini, and Anya Grunman. Our music was composed by Ramtin and his band Drop Electric, which includes Naveed Marvi, Show Fujiwara, Anya Mizani. As always, if you have an idea or like something you heard on the show, email us at thuline at mpr.org. Thanks for listening.

This message comes from Odoo. How many streaming subscriptions do you have? Is it the same for your business? Avoid it by having all of your business on one platform. Try Odoo for free at Odoo.com. That's ODOO.com. This message comes from Betterman. Their automated investing and saving tools give you the quiet confidence of someone who knows where to put their money with tax smart tools that help grow your after-tax returns year-round.

Get started today at betterment.com. That's B-E-T-T. E-R-M-E-N-T.com. Investing involves risk. Performance not guaranteed. Betterment is not a tax advisor, nor should any information herein be considered tax advice. Please consult a qualified tax professional. Support for this podcast and the following message come from the NPR Wine Club, which has generated over$1.75 million to support NPR programming.

Whether buying a few bottles or joining the club, you can learn more at nprwineclub.org/slash podcast. Must be twenty one or older to purchase.