Nick Mott: This series was supported by Nick Mott: the Pulitzer Center. Lisa Murkowski: Mr. President, Lisa Murkowski: I don't know if you've Lisa Murkowski: recognize. This is a very Lisa Murkowski: historic day, of course, but Lisa Murkowski: it's also the beginning Lisa Murkowski: of winter solstice. Amy Martin: Welcome to Threshold, I'm Amy Amy Martin: Martin, and this is the final Amy Martin: episode in our series about Amy Martin: the Arctic National Wildlife Amy Martin: Refuge.
Amy Martin: And to kick us off here, I want Amy Martin: to return to where we started Amy Martin: with Alaska Senator Lisa Amy Martin: Murkowski on December Amy Martin: 20th, 2017. Lisa Murkowski: This has been a Lisa Murkowski: multi-generational Lisa Murkowski: fight. Amy Martin: Senator Murkowski was Amy Martin: celebrating the signing of the Amy Martin: Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, Amy Martin: which included a provision Amy Martin: mandating an oil and gas Amy Martin: lease sale in the refuge.
Lisa Murkowski: This is a bright today Lisa Murkowski: for Alaska. Lisa Murkowski: This is a bright day for Lisa Murkowski: America.So Lisa Murkowski: we thank you for that. Amy Martin: Despite the celebratory tone, Amy Martin: when you watch this video from Amy Martin: CNN, the moment actually Amy Martin: seems loaded with awkwardness. Amy Martin: Senator Murkowski is speaking Amy Martin: while President Trump looks on Amy Martin: from the side smiling.
Amy Martin: But just five months earlier, Amy Martin: she had made him very angry Amy Martin: by breaking with her party to Amy Martin: vote against his attempt to Amy Martin: repeal the Affordable Care Act. Amy Martin: And nine months after the tax Amy Martin: bill was signed, Murkowski Amy Martin: would become the only Amy Martin: Republican senator to openly Amy Martin: oppose Trump's Supreme Court Amy Martin: nominee, Brett Kavanaugh. Amy Martin: And then there's climate Amy Martin: change.
Amy Martin: Senator Murkowski talks about Amy Martin: it as a reality and a threat, Amy Martin: while the president denies that Amy Martin: it's happening. Amy Martin: So it's hard to imagine Amy Martin: that these two are exactly Amy Martin: pals. Amy Martin: But on this issue, opening Amy Martin: the largest wildlife refuge in Amy Martin: the country to oil and gas Amy Martin: drilling, they found common Amy Martin: ground.
Lisa Murkowski: This, Mr. President, is Lisa Murkowski: what energy dominance Lisa Murkowski: is all about. Amy Martin: So my question is: why? Amy Martin: Why is a moderate Republican, Amy Martin: one who's concerned about Amy Martin: climate change leading the Amy Martin: charge for fossil fuel Amy Martin: development in a pristine Amy Martin: wildlife refuge? Amy Martin: How did this become the issue Amy Martin: that brought Senator Murkowski Amy Martin: and President Trump together?
Victoria Herrmann: Historically, we have looked Victoria Herrmann: in the north of Victoria Herrmann: oil as an economic Victoria Herrmann: asset, and we have Victoria Herrmann: squared it separately Victoria Herrmann: from climate change. Amy Martin: Victoria Herrmann is the Amy Martin: managing director of the Arctic Amy Martin: Institute, a think tank based Amy Martin: in Washington, DC. Victoria Herrmann: Alaska is an oil Victoria Herrmann: state, right?
Victoria Herrmann: It provides revenue Victoria Herrmann: to run the state budget, to Victoria Herrmann: run its schools, its health Victoria Herrmann: care system, and it provides Victoria Herrmann: thousands of jobs across the Victoria Herrmann: state. Victoria Herrmann: Oil equates to Victoria Herrmann: the economy. Victoria Herrmann: It does not factor in Victoria Herrmann: into climate change Victoria Herrmann: conversations because that Victoria Herrmann: is in a separate silo.
Amy Martin: As we've mentioned earlier, Amy Martin: more than 80% of the Amy Martin: money in Alaska state budget Amy Martin: comes from taxes and royalties Amy Martin: that oil companies pay to the Amy Martin: state. Amy Martin: Historically, it's been closer Amy Martin: to 90%.
Amy Martin: And Victoria says that history, Amy Martin: that commitment to oil Amy Martin: as the lifeblood of the state Amy Martin: of Alaska, that was Amy Martin: also a commitment to a certain Amy Martin: way of thinking.
Victoria Herrmann: I think currently Victoria Herrmann: there is a path dependance Victoria Herrmann: on how we think about Victoria Herrmann: energy and the Arctic Victoria Herrmann: National Wildlife Refuge and Victoria Herrmann: how we think about climate Victoria Herrmann: change. Amy Martin: Path dependence? Victoria Herrmann: A path dependance. Victoria Herrmann: When Senator Murkowski talks Victoria Herrmann: about ANWR, she does not Victoria Herrmann: talk about climate change,
Victoria Herrmann: right? She has divided these Victoria Herrmann: into two completely separate Victoria Herrmann: conversations. Victoria Herrmann: You will not see them overlap Victoria Herrmann: because if they do, then Victoria Herrmann: you have a conflict. Victoria Herrmann: You have a tension between Victoria Herrmann: drilling, but also wanting Victoria Herrmann: to mitigate your greenhouse gas Victoria Herrmann: emissions. Victoria Herrmann: So they have to stay separate.
Amy Martin: The fight over drilling in the Amy Martin: refuge predates our battles Amy Martin: over climate change, but not Amy Martin: by much. Amy Martin: Both questions emerged in the Amy Martin: 1980s, even though at Amy Martin: that time the two issues were Amy Martin: not connected in people's Amy Martin: minds.
Amy Martin: Looking back, it's like Amy Martin: watching two trains leaving Amy Martin: the station side by side, Amy Martin: and as they head out, they look Amy Martin: like they're on parallel Amy Martin: tracks. Amy Martin: As the decades roll by, though, Amy Martin: you can start to see that those Amy Martin: tracks are actually slowly Amy Martin: moving closer and closer Amy Martin: together.
Amy Martin: And now, no matter how much Amy Martin: some people might want to keep Amy Martin: them apart, the ten-tonne Amy Martin: locomotive of climate change Amy Martin: is crashing into the debate Amy Martin: over the future of the refuge. Speaker 5: What is the value of Speaker 5: these animals and their Speaker 5: ecosystems? Speaker 6: It's a big opportunity Speaker 6: that we be able to Speaker 6: profit off of. Speaker 7: Our permafrost is melting.
Speaker 7: Our snow doesn't stick Speaker 7: like it used to. Speaker 8: I think that it would open up a Speaker 8: lot of jobs. Speaker 8: I think that it could be a Speaker 8: really good thing. Speaker 9: This is where we have to live. Speaker 9: This is where we have to leave Speaker 9: our children when we die. Speaker 9: You have to think about that. Speaker 10: Climate change is happening. Speaker 10: We need to do something about Speaker 10: it.
Amy Martin: Between June of 1988 Amy Martin: and March of 1989, Amy Martin: four different events happened, Amy Martin: which have kind of a spooky Amy Martin: level of interconnectedness.
Amy Martin: At least that's how it seems Amy Martin: to me looking back at them now, Amy Martin: at the time, they probably Amy Martin: didn't seem very related to Amy Martin: most of the people involved Amy Martin: because like Victoria Herrmann Amy Martin: just described, these events Amy Martin: were unfolding on different Amy Martin: paths, parallel tracks.
Amy Martin: But as I researched the Amy Martin: controversy over drilling in Amy Martin: the refuge, I got fascinated Amy Martin: by this nine months and how Amy Martin: these four events, two Amy Martin: in Alaska, two in Washington, Amy Martin: D.C., foreshadow Amy Martin: the moment we're in now, Amy Martin: when the debate about drilling Amy Martin: in the refuge and the debate Amy Martin: about how to respond to the Amy Martin: climate crisis are slamming
Amy Martin: into each other full force. Amy Martin: The first event started June Amy Martin: 5th, 1988. Amy Martin: This is what we talked about in Amy Martin: our last episode, the Gwich'in Amy Martin: gathering members Amy Martin: of the Gwich'in Nation on both Amy Martin: sides of the U.S. Amy Martin: Canada border came together Amy Martin: in Arctic Village, Alaska Amy Martin: to discuss how to respond Amy Martin: to the threat of oil Amy Martin: development on the coastal Amy Martin: plain.
Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: This doesn't make sense to Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: destroy such and Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: this piece of land. Amy Martin: This is from a video of the Amy Martin: gathering made by Northern Amy Martin: Native Broadcasting. Amy Martin: The man speaking is young. Amy Martin: He's outside. Amy Martin: He's carrying a gun on his Amy Martin: shoulder.
Amy Martin: It looks like he was asked to Amy Martin: do an interview on his way out Amy Martin: to go hunting. Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: I don't see why we should mess Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: with it. Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: It doesn't belong to nobody. Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: It's just like Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: our parents. Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: We survive on it.
Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: It's hard to see Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: the people trying to Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: destroy the property, Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: especially the caribou. Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: I mean, raiding. Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: They're carrying guns. Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: They're going to dig around in their calving grounds.
Amy Martin: The gathering ended on June Amy Martin: 10th and the Gwich'in began Amy Martin: to distribute their message Amy Martin: that they were united in Amy Martin: opposition to drilling in the Amy Martin: refuge. Amy Martin: So that's number one of four Amy Martin: here. The second thing Amy Martin: happened just 13 days later Amy Martin: on the other side of the Amy Martin: continent.
Amy Martin: It's June 23rd, 1988, Amy Martin: and the Senate Energy and Amy Martin: Natural Resources Committee is Amy Martin: holding a hearing. Amy Martin: It's a sweltering day in Amy Martin: Washington, D.C., and Amy Martin: senators are gathered to listen Amy Martin: to scientist James Hansen. Amy Martin: Hansen was working for NASA at Amy Martin: the time, and he was invited Amy Martin: to speak at this hearing to Amy Martin: deliver some startling news.
Amy Martin: Humans were warming up the Amy Martin: planet by burning fossil fuels. Amy Martin: The chairman of that Senate Amy Martin: committee was J. Amy Martin: Bennett Johnston, a Democrat Amy Martin: from Louisiana. Senator Johnston: This was very much an Senator Johnston: introduction to the Senator Johnston: issue for the public. Amy Martin: Senator Johnston is 86 Amy Martin: years old now. Amy Martin: I spoke to him over the phone.
Senator Johnston: It was clear to me that Senator Johnston: global warming was a coming Senator Johnston: issue and that we needed to pay Senator Johnston: attention to it. Amy Martin: The idea that humans could be Amy Martin: heating up the planet wasn't Amy Martin: new.
Amy Martin: Scientists have been talking Amy Martin: about the possibility for a Amy Martin: long time, but James Amy Martin: Hansen was presenting evidence Amy Martin: that it was more than a Amy Martin: possibility it was actually Amy Martin: happening. Amy Martin: This was big news. Amy Martin: The hearing made the front page Amy Martin: of the New York Times the next Amy Martin: day under the headline, "Global Amy Martin: Warming has Begun, Expert Amy Martin: tells Senate.
Amy Martin: Senator Johnston says he took Amy Martin: climate change seriously Amy Martin: from the beginning. Senator Johnston: Yeah, I mean, we've got to cut Senator Johnston: down on the amount of carbon Senator Johnston: that we produce worldwide. Senator Johnston: It's a worldwide issue. Senator Johnston: The United States needs to lead Senator Johnston: the world. Senator Johnston: It was a great mistake to Senator Johnston: withdraw from the Senator Johnston: Paris Accords.
Senator Johnston: That's what we need to do Senator Johnston: is do this on a worldwide Senator Johnston: basis. Amy Martin: So the Gwich'in gathering and Amy Martin: the James Hansen testimony Amy Martin: happened within two weeks of Amy Martin: each other in June 1988. Amy Martin: Now, fast forward to March Amy Martin: of 1989. Amy Martin: We're still in Washington. Amy Martin: In fact, we're still in that Amy Martin: same committee.
Amy Martin: It's March 16th and Amy Martin: the Senate Energy and Natural Amy Martin: Resources Committee votes yes Amy Martin: on a bill to drill in the Amy Martin: Arctic National Wildlife Amy Martin: Refuge. Amy Martin: The sponsor of that bill, Amy Martin: Senator J. Amy Martin: Bennett Johnston.
Senator Johnston: I was absolutely convinced, Senator Johnston: having been there many times Senator Johnston: and having extensive Senator Johnston: hearings, that Senator Johnston: the ecological damage Senator Johnston: would be minimal. Senator Johnston: The potential Senator Johnston: for oil and gas for Senator Johnston: the United States was great. Amy Martin: And he still feels that way Amy Martin: today.
Amy Martin: The senator who presided over Amy Martin: the committee which held the Amy Martin: nation's first congressional Amy Martin: climate change hearings, is Amy Martin: the same senator who's been Amy Martin: pushing to drill for oil in the Amy Martin: refuge since Ronald Reagan was Amy Martin: president. Amy Martin: Yes, I have questions, too. Amy Martin: We're coming back to that. Amy Martin: But first, you need to know Amy Martin: about event number four.
Amy Martin: On March 24th, just Amy Martin: eight days after that pro Amy Martin: drilling bill advanced out of Amy Martin: committee, this happens. CNN: The tanker Exxon Valdez, CNN: gouged by a reef. CNN: It's already the largest oil CNN: spill in U.S. CNN: history. Amy Martin: This is from a CNN report Amy Martin: recorded the day of the Exxon Amy Martin: Valdez oil spill. CNN: More than 8.5 million gallons CNN: poured into Prince William CNN: Sound, a prime fishing and CNN: recreation area.
CNN: A five mile long oil slick CNN: is moving out to sea. Amy Martin: Prince William Sound is a Amy Martin: southern Alaska inlet dotted Amy Martin: with islands and ringed with Amy Martin: gorgeous forested mountains. Amy Martin: Tucked into one of the many Amy Martin: fjords there, is Valdez, Amy Martin: a port town and the southern Amy Martin: end of the Trans-Alaska Amy Martin: Pipeline.
CNN: The supertanker bound for Long CNN: Beach, California, ran aground CNN: about 22 miles south of Valdez CNN: early Friday morning after CNN: loading a cargo of 1.25 CNN: million barrels from the Alaska CNN: pipeline. CNN: Oil poured into the sound at CNN: the rate of 20,000 gallons an CNN: hour for 12 hours. CNN: Alyeska was supposed to have an CNN: emergency response team at CNN: its terminal in Valdez, CNN: but eight years ago, the team CNN: was disbanded.
CNN: Equipment to fight the spill CNN: has to be flown in from as far CNN: away as Texas and England. CNN: The spill closed the port of CNN: Valdez, which pumps 2 CNN: million barrels a day, one CNN: fourth of America's domestic CNN: crude output. CNN: Exxon says it's using all CNN: available resources, but CNN: it argues the spill is simply CNN: too big to surround with CNN: booms and skim it up.
Amy Martin: The tanker ended up bleeding 11 Amy Martin: million gallons of oil into Amy Martin: the sound. Amy Martin: The oil rapidly spread through Amy Martin: the water, eventually dirtying Amy Martin: more than 1300 miles Amy Martin: of shoreline. Amy Martin: Hundreds of thousands of Amy Martin: seabirds died, along with Amy Martin: thousands of otters, hundreds Amy Martin: of seals, dozens of species Amy Martin: were impacted, including Amy Martin: our own.
Amy Martin: Commercial fishing and Amy Martin: recreation industries in the Amy Martin: sound took a massive hit Amy Martin: and families who depended on Amy Martin: the animals in those waters for Amy Martin: their food had to look Amy Martin: elsewhere. Amy Martin: In the wake of the spill, rates Amy Martin: of anxiety, depression, Amy Martin: substance abuse and domestic Amy Martin: violence went up across the Amy Martin: region. Amy Martin: It was a collective trauma.
Amy Martin: Today, 30 years later, Amy Martin: you can still find oil on some Amy Martin: of those beaches. Amy Martin: And many people say life there Amy Martin: has never been the same. CNN: The accident is providing a CNN: rallying point for conservation CNN: groups in the lower 48 CNN: opposed to oil drilling CNN: in the Arctic National Wildlife CNN: Refuge.
Amy Martin: Remember, all of this was just Amy Martin: eight days after Senator Amy Martin: Johnston's bill opening up ANWR Amy Martin: for drilling had passed out Amy Martin: of committee. Senator Johnston: Yes. So I remember that the Senator Johnston: timing was very bad. Amy Martin: Did it give you pause at all? Amy Martin: Did it make you think like, Amy Martin: maybe this is something we Amy Martin: should be a little bit more Amy Martin: hesitant about?
Senator Johnston: No, they're unrelated. Senator Johnston: I mean, the Senator Johnston: use of a tanker Senator Johnston: is just not related to the Senator Johnston: danger of drilling in ANWR. Amy Martin: Drilling in the refuge would Amy Martin: happen on land, Senator Amy Martin: Johnston says. Amy Martin: The Valdez spill happened in Amy Martin: the water. Amy Martin: His ANWR bill was about oil Amy Martin: production. Amy Martin: This disaster was about oil Amy Martin: transport.
Amy Martin: From his perspective, it's Amy Martin: apples and oranges. Amy Martin: But where Senator Johnston saw Amy Martin: distinct, unrelated processes, Amy Martin: many others saw an Amy Martin: interconnected web. Amy Martin: The oil that was leaving otters Amy Martin: gasping for breath and seabirds Amy Martin: unable to lift their wings Amy Martin: came from Arctic Alaska.
Amy Martin: It was heartbreaking to watch, Amy Martin: and it left few people in the Amy Martin: mood to open up more wells Amy Martin: in the same region. Amy Martin: The bill died. CNN: Alaska is assessing what CNN: environmental impact the spill CNN: could have on Prince William CNN: Sound. CNN: Ask what the accident will cost CNN: the company. CNN: One executive said it CNN: won't be cheap. CNN: Dan Lennox, CNN reporting.
Amy Martin: The Exxon Valdez disaster Amy Martin: obviously didn't help the cause Amy Martin: of the people trying to get Amy Martin: drilling approved in the Amy Martin: refuge. Amy Martin: But as Senator Johnston Amy Martin: indicated, it definitely didn't Amy Martin: stop them either. Amy Martin: He helped to lead another Amy Martin: attempt at getting Amy Martin: congressional approval to drill Amy Martin: in 1991.
Amy Martin: That bill failed, but another Amy Martin: in 1995 made Amy Martin: it all the way to President Amy Martin: Clinton's desk. Amy Martin: He vetoed it. Amy Martin: And it goes on and on Amy Martin: like this through the years Amy Martin: with lawmakers on both sides Amy Martin: trying to resolve the Amy Martin: uncertainty hanging over the Amy Martin: 1002 area, some Amy Martin: trying to make drilling legal.
Amy Martin: Others trying to permanently Amy Martin: protect the coastal plain, Amy Martin: until the Tax Cuts Amy Martin: and Jobs Act passed in December Amy Martin: 2017. Amy Martin: So you can probably see Amy Martin: why this piece of history Amy Martin: caught my attention.
Amy Martin: We've got the Gwich'in Amy Martin: gathering, the first Amy Martin: congressional hearings on Amy Martin: climate change, a yes vote Amy Martin: on a bill to drill in the Amy Martin: refuge and the Exxon Amy Martin: Valdez oil spill all Amy Martin: happening within one nine month Amy Martin: period. Amy Martin: You can mix and match these Amy Martin: events in dozens of ways, and Amy Martin: they always have something to Amy Martin: say to each other.
Amy Martin: And to me, one of the most Amy Martin: interesting tensions here is Amy Martin: Senator Johnston's role as Amy Martin: both an advocate for climate Amy Martin: change mitigation and Amy Martin: drilling in the refuge. Amy Martin: For 40 years, he's remained Amy Martin: steadfast in support for Amy Martin: drilling, even as he's Amy Martin: also supported policies Amy Martin: to limit carbon emissions.
Senator Johnston: In my view, the Senator Johnston: carbon tax is the best way Senator Johnston: to do it, and Senator Johnston: we need to promote renewables Senator Johnston: as fast as we reasonably Senator Johnston: can. Amy Martin: If you're concerned about Amy Martin: global warming, Amy Martin: what makes it okay to drill Amy Martin: for more oil? Amy Martin: How do you square those two Amy Martin: positions?
Senator Johnston: Well, first of all, people Senator Johnston: confuse production Senator Johnston: with consumption. Senator Johnston: I mean, if you shut down Senator Johnston: all drilling in the United Senator Johnston: States, which Senator Johnston: nobody thinks you could, but if Senator Johnston: you cut it back, Senator Johnston: you would simply import the Senator Johnston: oil from Senator Johnston: Saudi Arabia and from Russia.
Senator Johnston: And surely people Senator Johnston: cannot think it is in the Senator Johnston: interest of the United States Senator Johnston: to import Senator Johnston: from those countries as Senator Johnston: opposed to producing Senator Johnston: it with the 10 million jobs Senator Johnston: that oil and gas produces Senator Johnston: in the United States. Amy Martin: To get inside Senator Amy Martin: Johnston's head here, think Amy Martin: about it like this.
Amy Martin: The oil we burn is going to Amy Martin: warm the planet, whether it was Amy Martin: drilled in Alaska or Siberia. Amy Martin: So why not drill it in the U.S. Amy Martin: where we have stronger Amy Martin: environmental protections Amy Martin: and we get to make some money Amy Martin: off of it? Senator Johnston: The amount you burn is Senator Johnston: dependent on demand. Senator Johnston: So it's demand that determines Senator Johnston: the amount that is consumed.
Amy Martin: This argument sounds good at Amy Martin: first blush. Amy Martin: If you're worried about carbon Amy Martin: emissions, reduce demand for Amy Martin: oil. And until you do that, Amy Martin: drill at home and make some Amy Martin: money. Amy Martin: But the thing is, the demand Amy Martin: and supply of oil Amy Martin: can't be separated from each Amy Martin: other as neatly as Senator Amy Martin: Johnston makes it sound.
Amy Martin: Oil isn't like ice cream, Amy Martin: people can't simply decide not Amy Martin: to use it anymore, just out of Amy Martin: choice. Amy Martin: If we could, solving global Amy Martin: warming would be easy. Amy Martin: But it's not because in Amy Martin: the real world path that we're Amy Martin: on. Fossil fuels are Amy Martin: embedded into everything we do. Amy Martin: We use them in the production Amy Martin: and transport of our food.
Amy Martin: Our hospitals run on oil, and Amy Martin: so do our militaries and banks Amy Martin: and schools. Amy Martin: If enough individuals make Amy Martin: choices to reduce demand, it Amy Martin: can certainly make an impact. Amy Martin: But no one person or group Amy Martin: or even one country has the Amy Martin: power all by itself to Amy Martin: completely eliminate demand for Amy Martin: oil.
Amy Martin: That's a huge group effort Amy Martin: which requires changes in laws Amy Martin: and policy. Amy Martin: And as the climate crisis Amy Martin: worsens, that's exactly Amy Martin: what many people are pushing Amy Martin: for. Amy Martin: But when citizens take that Amy Martin: route and fight for the policy Amy Martin: changes that would reduce the Amy Martin: demand for fossil fuels, Amy Martin: oil companies fight back.
Amy Martin: Hard, and they have massive Amy Martin: resources at their disposal in Amy Martin: that fight. Amy Martin: The biggest oil companies have Amy Martin: annual revenues far greater Amy Martin: than the revenues of most Amy Martin: countries. Amy Martin: In 2017, for instance, Amy Martin: Exxon brought in more money Amy Martin: than the government of Amy Martin: Switzerland or Saudi Arabia. Amy Martin: BP and Shell made even Amy Martin: more. Amy Martin: And that money means power.
Amy Martin: It means access to politicians Amy Martin: at the highest levels and Amy Martin: influence over the laws that Amy Martin: have kept our societies Amy Martin: addicted to oil. Amy Martin: Senator Johnston has to know Amy Martin: about the money and lobbying Amy Martin: muscle that oil companies apply Amy Martin: towards stopping citizen Amy Martin: efforts to get off of oil.
Amy Martin: Because in addition to being a Amy Martin: U.S. senator, he served Amy Martin: on the board of directors of a Amy Martin: major oil company from 1997 Amy Martin: to 2004. Senator Johnston: Yes, I was on the board of Senator Johnston: Chevron. Amy Martin: And do you think Amy Martin: that that has influenced you to Amy Martin: make you more open to drilling?
Senator Johnston: I, I've always Senator Johnston: been open to the concept Senator Johnston: of drilling, so it Senator Johnston: did not really have any effect Senator Johnston: on it. I support Senator Johnston: production in the United Senator Johnston: States, clean production, Senator Johnston: and done in Senator Johnston: an environmentally responsible Senator Johnston: way.
Amy Martin: No matter how many ways I try Amy Martin: to get inside this Amy Martin: contradiction between Senator Amy Martin: Johnston's pro-drilling, Amy Martin: pro-climate action stance. Amy Martin: His answer was the same. Senator Johnston: I mean, look, it's Senator Johnston: is very plain.
Senator Johnston: The amount of oil that is Senator Johnston: produced in the United States Senator Johnston: does not determine how much Senator Johnston: is consumed Senator Johnston: in the United States. Amy Martin: That is a true statement. Amy Martin: But given the whole context Amy Martin: here, it's a pretty specious Amy Martin: argument. Amy Martin: Does solving the climate crisis Amy Martin: require humans to radically Amy Martin: reduce our demand for oil?
Amy Martin: Absolutely. Amy Martin: Are oil companies simply Amy Martin: neutral actors responding Amy Martin: to that demand? Amy Martin: Absolutely not. Amy Martin: They're very involved in Amy Martin: shaping that market. Amy Martin: It comes down to this. Amy Martin: You can't spend billions Amy Martin: of dollars for decades Amy Martin: blocking attempts to reduce Amy Martin: demand and then simply Amy Martin: shrug your shoulders and say, Amy Martin: "hey, don't blame us.
Amy Martin: We're just giving the people Amy Martin: what they want." Amy Martin: Senator Johnston is definitely Amy Martin: not alone in making this Amy Martin: argument, though. Amy Martin: And as we've already discussed, Amy Martin: he's also not alone in holding Amy Martin: his concerns about climate Amy Martin: change in one hand and his Amy Martin: desire to drill in the refuge Amy Martin: in the other.
Lisa Murkowski: And I have suggested that Lisa Murkowski: climate change is absolutely, Lisa Murkowski: absolutely Lisa Murkowski: one one lens Lisa Murkowski: that we must look at. Amy Martin: This is Senator Lisa Murkowski Amy Martin: speaking from the stage of the Amy Martin: Arctic Frontiers Conference in Amy Martin: Norway in 2019.
Lisa Murkowski: But we must never forget the Lisa Murkowski: other aspects Lisa Murkowski: of the Arctic, the people who Lisa Murkowski: live and work and raise their Lisa Murkowski: families there, Lisa Murkowski: the economic opportunities, Lisa Murkowski: the environmental opportunities Lisa Murkowski: and challenges. Lisa Murkowski: It is, it is bigger than Lisa Murkowski: just one issue.
Amy Martin: After two years of reporting on Amy Martin: this region, I couldn't agree Amy Martin: more that the Arctic is bigger Amy Martin: than just one issue. Amy Martin: But what confused me as I Amy Martin: listened to this speech is that Amy Martin: climate change is not Amy Martin: just one issue. Amy Martin: It directly affects all the Amy Martin: things Senator Murkowski listed Amy Martin: human welfare, economics, Amy Martin: security and so much more.
Amy Martin: I had the opportunity to Amy Martin: interview Senator Murkowski Amy Martin: very briefly at that Amy Martin: conference, and I asked her Amy Martin: this. Amy Martin: Can you make the best possible Amy Martin: case for why we should drill Amy Martin: in the Arctic National Wildlife Amy Martin: Refuge, given that you Amy Martin: are such a leader among Amy Martin: Republicans in saying climate Amy Martin: change is real and it's Amy Martin: important and it's now?
Lisa Murkowski: Well, I think if you if you Lisa Murkowski: take the perspective that Lisa Murkowski: we should never utilize Lisa Murkowski: our our fossil Lisa Murkowski: fuels, you should buy into Lisa Murkowski: the keep it in the ground Lisa Murkowski: theory. Lisa Murkowski: Help me out, help me
Lisa Murkowski: out here. How, how are you Lisa Murkowski: going to get to Lisa Murkowski: that that that Lisa Murkowski: that place, that idyllic Lisa Murkowski: place where we Lisa Murkowski: will be able to Lisa Murkowski: to power not Lisa Murkowski: only this country, but power Lisa Murkowski: the world off of our renewable Lisa Murkowski: resources. Lisa Murkowski: We cannot get there from Lisa Murkowski: here today without a Lisa Murkowski: transition. Lisa Murkowski: We cannot do it.
Lisa Murkowski: And so I would rather Lisa Murkowski: be a nation Lisa Murkowski: who is providing a resource Lisa Murkowski: in a manner and Lisa Murkowski: in a process Lisa Murkowski: that is more environmentally Lisa Murkowski: regulated Lisa Murkowski: than the other parts Lisa Murkowski: of the world where Lisa Murkowski: they are accessing the same Lisa Murkowski: resource.
Lisa Murkowski: They are doing Lisa Murkowski: so without the same level Lisa Murkowski: of environmental standard and Lisa Murkowski: safeguard and Lisa Murkowski: in a way that Lisa Murkowski: is is doubly Lisa Murkowski: destructive, if you will. Lisa Murkowski: So do we need Lisa Murkowski: to to lead Lisa Murkowski: in in the transition Lisa Murkowski: that takes us Lisa Murkowski: to new fuels, new sources Lisa Murkowski: of energy?
Lisa Murkowski: Absolutely. Lisa Murkowski: But in order to do so, Lisa Murkowski: it requires, Lisa Murkowski: it requires a level of Lisa Murkowski: resource. Lisa Murkowski: You can't make this happen Lisa Murkowski: just by wishing it. Lisa Murkowski: You just can't make it happen Lisa Murkowski: by snapping your fingers. Lisa Murkowski: So we have to have the Lisa Murkowski: resources to Lisa Murkowski: to allow for a transition. Amy Martin: Our short conversation ended
Amy Martin: there. Senator Murkowski got Amy Martin: whisked away to her next Amy Martin: appointment, and I was left Amy Martin: feeling unsatisfied Amy Martin: because she answered a question Amy Martin: I didn't ask. Amy Martin: I didn't promote any theory or Amy Martin: suggest that we could get Amy Martin: through this transition without Amy Martin: oil. Amy Martin: I asked her to explain Amy Martin: why we should drill in the Amy Martin: Arctic National Wildlife Amy Martin: Refuge.
Amy Martin: And those are very different Amy Martin: questions, because Amy Martin: even if we grant that we'll Amy Martin: need oil and gas to power Amy Martin: us through a transition toward Amy Martin: renewables, it's not Amy Martin: at all clear that we need to Amy Martin: drill on the coastal plain. Amy Martin: There's a lot of oil left in Amy Martin: the fields that are already in Amy Martin: production around the world, Amy Martin: and even just in Alaska.
Amy Martin: Almost the entire North Slope Amy Martin: is open for business. Amy Martin: The refuge is one of the only Amy Martin: areas where drilling has been Amy Martin: restricted there. Amy Martin: I followed up multiple times Amy Martin: with Senator Murkowski's Amy Martin: office, hoping to have the Amy Martin: chance to dig in deeper with Amy Martin: her, but I wasn't granted any Amy Martin: additional interviews.
Amy Martin: I was able to pose some Amy Martin: of those questions to a Amy Martin: different Alaskan, though. Kara Moriarty: It's not about getting the oil Kara Moriarty: right now. Kara Moriarty: It is about having Kara Moriarty: the oil for the Kara Moriarty: next generation to come. Amy Martin: This is Kara Moriarty of the Amy Martin: Alaska Oil and Gas Association. Amy Martin: We'll hear more from her after Amy Martin: this short break.
Matt Herlihy: Hi, my name's Matt Herlihy and Matt Herlihy: I've been a Threshold listener Matt Herlihy: and donor since season one came Matt Herlihy: out in 2017. Matt Herlihy: I was also one of the first Matt Herlihy: volunteer board members of the Matt Herlihy: nonprofit organization that Matt Herlihy: makes Threshold. Matt Herlihy: Over the past seven plus Matt Herlihy: years, I've had this unique, Matt Herlihy: firsthand look at just how much Matt Herlihy: work it takes to make this kind
Matt Herlihy: of show. I mean, the time, Matt Herlihy: the dedication, the Matt Herlihy: determination that's required Matt Herlihy: to tell these these in-depth Matt Herlihy: stories that really make people Matt Herlihy: think and feel and give Matt Herlihy: people a sense of what it's Matt Herlihy: like to really go to places Matt Herlihy: where the stories are happening Matt Herlihy: to to talk to the people who Matt Herlihy: are part of them.
Matt Herlihy: It creates this rich, immersive Matt Herlihy: listening experience and I Matt Herlihy: think that kind of reporting, Matt Herlihy: this whole kind of show is not Matt Herlihy: easy to make. Matt Herlihy: It's also not easy to fund, Matt Herlihy: you know, talk about slow, Matt Herlihy: in-depth, thorough. Matt Herlihy: These are not often part of the Matt Herlihy: existing models for making a
Matt Herlihy: podcast. So it's up to people Matt Herlihy: like us to really make sure Matt Herlihy: Threshold can get made. Matt Herlihy: I believe the Threshold is Matt Herlihy: doing really matters and if you Matt Herlihy: do, to help them keep doing Matt Herlihy: it. Threshold's Year end Matt Herlihy: fundraising campaign is Matt Herlihy: happening right now through Matt Herlihy: December 31st and each Matt Herlihy: gift will be doubled through Matt Herlihy: NewsMatch.
Matt Herlihy: So if you give $25, Matt Herlihy: they'll receive 50. Matt Herlihy: You can make your one time or Matt Herlihy: monthly donation online and Matt Herlihy: thresholdpodcast.org. Matt Herlihy: Just click the donate button Matt Herlihy: and give what you can. Matt Herlihy: Thank you. Amy Martin: Hi Threshold listeners.
Amy Martin: Do you ever find yourself Amy Martin: wondering what businesses are Amy Martin: doing and what more they should Amy Martin: do to confront climate Amy Martin: change? Amy Martin: Then you should check out Amy Martin: Climate Rising, the award Amy Martin: winning podcast from Harvard Amy Martin: Business School.
Amy Martin: Climate Rising gives you a Amy Martin: behind the scenes look at how Amy Martin: top business leaders are taking Amy Martin: on the challenge of climate Amy Martin: change. Amy Martin: The show covers cutting edge Amy Martin: solutions from leveraging Amy Martin: A.I. and carbon markets Amy Martin: to sharing stories that inspire Amy Martin: climate action.
Amy Martin: Recent episodes feature Amy Martin: insightful conversations with Amy Martin: leaders like Netflix's first Amy Martin: sustainability officer, Emma Amy Martin: Steward, who discusses how the Amy Martin: global entertainment giant Amy Martin: uses its platform to promote Amy Martin: climate awareness.
Amy Martin: We'll also hear from CNN's Amy Martin: chief climate correspondent Amy Martin: Bill Weir about the importance Amy Martin: of integrating climate change Amy Martin: into news coverage. Amy Martin: Each episode dives deep into Amy Martin: the challenges and Amy Martin: opportunities that climate Amy Martin: change presents to Amy Martin: entrepreneurs and innovators.
Amy Martin: Listen to Climate Rising Amy Martin: every other Wednesday on Apple Amy Martin: Podcasts, Spotify Amy Martin: or wherever you get your Amy Martin: podcasts. Dallas Taylor: I'm Dallas Taylor, host of Dallas Taylor: 20,000Hz, Dallas Taylor: a podcast that reveals the Dallas Taylor: untold stories behind the Dallas Taylor: sounds of our world. Dallas Taylor: We've uncovered the incredible Dallas Taylor: intelligence of talking Dallas Taylor: parrots.
Unknown: Basically, birdbrain Unknown: was a pejorative term. Unknown: And here I had this bird Unknown: that was doing the same types Unknown: of tasks the primates. Dallas Taylor: We've investigated the bonding Dallas Taylor: power of music. Unknown: There's an intimacy there in Unknown: communicating through Unknown: the medium of music Unknown: that can be really a Unknown: powerful force for bringing Unknown: people together.
Dallas Taylor: We've explored the subtle Dallas Taylor: nuances of the human voice. Unknown: We have to remember that humans Unknown: over many hundreds of thousands Unknown: of years of evolution have Unknown: become extremely attuned Unknown: to the sounds of each other's Unknown: voices. Dallas Taylor: And we've revealed why a famous Dallas Taylor: composer wrote a piece made Dallas Taylor: entirely of silence.
Unknown: I think that's a really Unknown: potentially quite useful and Unknown: quite profound experience to Unknown: have. Dallas Taylor: Subscribe to 20,000Hz Dallas Taylor: right here in your podcast Dallas Taylor: player. Dallas Taylor: I'll meet you there. Kara Moriarty: I came to Alaska as a Kara Moriarty: schoolteacher, so I Kara Moriarty: taught school in a small Kara Moriarty: Inupiaq village called Atqasuk, Kara Moriarty: which is 50 miles south of Kara Moriarty: Barrow.
Amy Martin: Welcome back to Threshold, I'm Amy Martin: Amy Martin, and I'm talking Amy Martin: with Kara Moriarty in Amy Martin: Anchorage, Alaska. Amy Martin: Kara grew up on a ranch in Amy Martin: South Dakota, and she came to Amy Martin: Alaska, planning to teach just Amy Martin: for a year. Amy Martin: After that year was up, she Amy Martin: left to go work for South Amy Martin: Dakota's congressman.
Amy Martin: But.. Kara Moriarty: Kept in touch with my Bush Kara Moriarty: pilot that I'd met. Kara Moriarty: And Kara Moriarty: we just celebrated our 20th Kara Moriarty: wedding anniversary last week. Amy Martin: I had a feeling.
Kara Moriarty: Yeah. So, yeah, you know, Kara Moriarty: I was the come for one year Kara Moriarty: and then come back to marry Kara Moriarty: your pilot and yeah, so Kara Moriarty: kind of a little bit of a Kara Moriarty: Alaska romance story, I guess, Kara Moriarty: if you will, for your Kara Moriarty: listeners. Amy Martin: Kara is now the president of Amy Martin: the Alaska Oil and Gas Amy Martin: Association.
Kara Moriarty: And we're the professional Kara Moriarty: trade association for the oil Kara Moriarty: and gas industry in Alaska. Kara Moriarty: So our job Kara Moriarty: is to advocate on behalf Kara Moriarty: of the entire industry to Kara Moriarty: continue the long term Kara Moriarty: viability of the industry for Kara Moriarty: the state. Amy Martin: I met Kara in her office Amy Martin: in August of 2019. Amy Martin: You'll hear some fans flipping Amy Martin: on and off a bit as we talk.
Amy Martin: And she started by helping me Amy Martin: understand all the steps Amy Martin: that happen in between holding Amy Martin: a lease sale and actually Amy Martin: beginning to extract oil on the Amy Martin: coastal plain. Amy Martin: And just a reminder, a lease Amy Martin: sale is an auction in Amy Martin: which oil companies will bid Amy Martin: for the right to drill in the Amy Martin: refuge. Kara Moriarty: You have a lease sale.
Kara Moriarty: Well, first of all, we know the Kara Moriarty: lease will be litigated because Kara Moriarty: as a tool in the environmental Kara Moriarty: activist toolbox that is Kara Moriarty: often used. Kara Moriarty: So we know it will be Kara Moriarty: litigated. So then you get Kara Moriarty: through the litigation 2 to 3 Kara Moriarty: years later and they put Kara Moriarty: together their exploration Kara Moriarty: plans.
Kara Moriarty: Those will probably be Kara Moriarty: litigated, but then it'll take Kara Moriarty: 4 to 5 years most likely Kara Moriarty: to explore because we have Kara Moriarty: a very limited exploration Kara Moriarty: season. Amy Martin: The exploration process Amy Martin: involves things like seismic Amy Martin: testing and other ways of Amy Martin: figuring out where the oil is.
Amy Martin: And on the North Slope, Amy Martin: companies can only explore Amy Martin: when it's cold enough to make Amy Martin: ice roads because those roads Amy Martin: protect the tundra from heavy Amy Martin: equipment. Amy Martin: But as the Arctic is freezing Amy Martin: later in the fall and thawing Amy Martin: sooner in the spring, it's Amy Martin: getting harder to keep ice Amy Martin: roads frozen.
Amy Martin: Companies have found Amy Martin: workarounds like pre-packing Amy Martin: the tundra with snow to keep Amy Martin: the exploration window open Amy Martin: as long as possible. Amy Martin: But in the long run, this is Amy Martin: one of the great ironies of oil Amy Martin: development in the far north.
Amy Martin: The infrastructure for Arctic Amy Martin: drilling is built to work on Amy Martin: snow and ice, but because Amy Martin: of the burning of the very Amy Martin: fossil fuels being pulled out Amy Martin: of the ground, that snow Amy Martin: and ice is melting. Amy Martin: There's a whole lot more to be Amy Martin: said on that topic. Amy Martin: But let's get back to Kara's Amy Martin: timeline here. Kara Moriarty: So exploration will take 4 Kara Moriarty: or 5 years.
Kara Moriarty: And then assuming all that Kara Moriarty: works out, then you've got Kara Moriarty: a 5 to 7 year development Kara Moriarty: plan before you reach Kara Moriarty: production. Kara Moriarty: So when it's all said and done, Kara Moriarty: it's at least, conservative, Kara Moriarty: a dozen years. Amy Martin: The Trump administration has Amy Martin: pledged that the first lease Amy Martin: sale will be held this winter.
Amy Martin: And as Kara predicted, Amy Martin: one lawsuit has already been Amy Martin: filed by a group of Amy Martin: conservation organizations and Amy Martin: the Gwich'in Steering Amy Martin: Committee. Amy Martin: They say the government is Amy Martin: withholding information on the Amy Martin: process of tribal consultation Amy Martin: and environmental review Amy Martin: required by law before Amy Martin: leasing can begin.
Amy Martin: And this will likely be the Amy Martin: first of many lawsuits. Amy Martin: Several organizations have Amy Martin: claimed that the environmental Amy Martin: review process was rushed Amy Martin: and doesn't provide sufficient Amy Martin: analysis of the true costs Amy Martin: of drilling to the land, water, Amy Martin: air and animals on the coastal Amy Martin: plain. Amy Martin: We'll be following all of this Amy Martin: in coming months.
Amy Martin: But if things do go roughly Amy Martin: according to the timeline Kara Amy Martin: laid out, drilling might Amy Martin: begin on the coastal plain in Amy Martin: the early 2030s.
Amy Martin: And as we talk through Amy Martin: different issues surrounding Amy Martin: oil development in the refuge, Amy Martin: Kara brought up the economic Amy Martin: benefits that the oil industry Amy Martin: has brought to the North Slope Amy Martin: and her opinion that the risks Amy Martin: to the Porcupine caribou herd Amy Martin: are overblown.
Amy Martin: But I think the most Amy Martin: interesting part of our Amy Martin: conversation was when I asked Amy Martin: her to make the positive case Amy Martin: for drilling, not why Amy Martin: environmentalists are wrong, Amy Martin: but why oil companies are Amy Martin: right because most Amy Martin: of the refuge is federal land Amy Martin: owned by all U.S. Amy Martin: citizens.
Amy Martin: So it seems like it's incumbent Amy Martin: on the industry to make the Amy Martin: case for why they should be Amy Martin: allowed to use public land Amy Martin: for their private gain. Amy Martin: And the public so far is Amy Martin: not convinced, although a Amy Martin: majority of Alaskans support Amy Martin: drilling in the refuge, Amy Martin: according to one recent poll, Amy Martin: two thirds of registered voters Amy Martin: in the country overall oppose Amy Martin: it.
Amy Martin: So I wanted to hear Kara's best Amy Martin: argument for why those people Amy Martin: should change their minds. Amy Martin: Why should Americans say yes Amy Martin: to oil development in the Amy Martin: refuge? Kara Moriarty: There's going to continue to be Kara Moriarty: a demand for Kara Moriarty: oil and gas.
Kara Moriarty: It's still going to be the Kara Moriarty: majority Kara Moriarty: fuel source that supplies Kara Moriarty: the globe's energy Kara Moriarty: needs for the next Kara Moriarty: 30 to 40 years. Kara Moriarty: So why wouldn't we Kara Moriarty: then, as a country, Kara Moriarty: want to develop Kara Moriarty: in our backyard where Kara Moriarty: we know we have the strictest Kara Moriarty: environmental standards?
Kara Moriarty: If you look at all the world Kara Moriarty: estimates for the next 30 Kara Moriarty: years, the demand for Kara Moriarty: oil does not go away. Amy Martin: So one thing that I think Amy Martin: I know some people would say Amy Martin: hearing you is, Amy Martin: you know, you said why wouldn't Amy Martin: we develop it?
Amy Martin: I think some people would say Amy Martin: because there's lots and lots Amy Martin: of oil available in the world Amy Martin: already in places that are Amy Martin: more developed or, Amy Martin: you know, already have impact. Amy Martin: But this is a place that is Amy Martin: pretty special in the world.
Amy Martin: Why not, even if we have Amy Martin: to develop it someday, Amy Martin: you know, 50 years down the Amy Martin: road and we're having some kind Amy Martin: of massive crisis, why Amy Martin: not save it for then instead Amy Martin: of, going there Amy Martin: now when it is really Amy Martin: it's a special habitat that has Amy Martin: a lot of wildlife in it? Kara Moriarty: Well, a couple of things to Kara Moriarty: that. Kara Moriarty: We have been saving it.
Kara Moriarty: We've been saving it for 40 Kara Moriarty: years already. Amy Martin: Like Senator Johnston, Kara Amy Martin: says the demand for oil is Amy Martin: the justification for drilling Amy Martin: it. Amy Martin: And she says because oil Amy Martin: production takes a lot of lead Amy Martin: time, you have to stay ahead Amy Martin: of that demand curve by Amy Martin: constantly opening new fields. Kara Moriarty: Oil basins, they peak and they decline.
Kara Moriarty: Is just the nature of the Kara Moriarty: business. Kara Moriarty: And so you have to constantly Kara Moriarty: be replacing that Kara Moriarty: decline and increasing Kara Moriarty: it and the potential. Kara Moriarty: So really, this Kara Moriarty: oil is going to be available Kara Moriarty: in 2032. Kara Moriarty: It's not about getting the oil Kara Moriarty: right now. Kara Moriarty: It is about having Kara Moriarty: the oil for the Kara Moriarty: next generation to come.
Amy Martin: So I think another Amy Martin: big argument you just actually Amy Martin: touched on, it would just be Amy Martin: climate change that a lot of Amy Martin: people would say, why, why Amy Martin: should we invest resources Amy Martin: and basically set up Amy Martin: the momentum toward, getting Amy Martin: more fossil fuels out of the Amy Martin: ground when they're warming the Amy Martin: planet? Amy Martin: And what's your response to Amy Martin: that?
Kara Moriarty: Well, I think it's very Kara Moriarty: unpractical Kara Moriarty: to say that we're going to be Kara Moriarty: without the use of fossil fuels Kara Moriarty: in the next three decades Kara Moriarty: because there's Kara Moriarty: not enough alternative Kara Moriarty: energy available. Kara Moriarty: And it certainly would not be Kara Moriarty: affordable for Kara Moriarty: consumers.
Amy Martin: It's true that there's Amy Martin: currently not enough Amy Martin: alternative energy to meet Amy Martin: demand. Amy Martin: There are a host of reasons for Amy Martin: that, transforming a Amy Martin: fundamental sector of the Amy Martin: economy isn't simple, Amy Martin: but renewables are growing Amy Martin: fast, and one of the major Amy Martin: reasons why they haven't grown Amy Martin: faster is the oil Amy Martin: industry itself.
Amy Martin: There are indirect ways that Amy Martin: the oil industry has Amy Martin: constrained the growth of Amy Martin: alternatives, things like tax Amy Martin: subsidies and crowding out Amy Martin: of competitors.
Amy Martin: But oil companies have also Amy Martin: taken direct actions Amy Martin: that have blocked the growth of Amy Martin: renewables, including Amy Martin: spending millions of dollars Amy Martin: on campaigns to suppress Amy Martin: climate science and confuse Amy Martin: the public about the dangers of Amy Martin: global warming.
Amy Martin: Lately, the big oil companies Amy Martin: have been changing their tune Amy Martin: on that, but what they say Amy Martin: is sometimes very different Amy Martin: from what they do. Amy Martin: As just one example, we Amy Martin: can look at BP, which is a Amy Martin: member of Kara's trade Amy Martin: organization.
Amy Martin: They publicly say they support Amy Martin: putting a price on carbon Amy Martin: to help reduce emissions, but Amy Martin: in 2018, Amy Martin: BP spent more than $10 Amy Martin: million to help defeat Amy Martin: a carbon pricing ballot Amy Martin: initiative in the state of Amy Martin: Washington. Amy Martin: Even so, Kara says, Amy Martin: oil companies are helping to Amy Martin: develop new, greener Amy Martin: technologies.
Kara Moriarty: And the reality is, Kara Moriarty: my very member companies Kara Moriarty: globally are the Kara Moriarty: companies investing Kara Moriarty: in the technology Kara Moriarty: to help with carbon capture, Kara Moriarty: with switching from Kara Moriarty: gas stations to electrical Kara Moriarty: stations for cars.
Kara Moriarty: We're not bad Kara Moriarty: and we're not bad for wanting Kara Moriarty: to continue to meet Kara Moriarty: the global demand Kara Moriarty: for the use of oil and gas. Kara Moriarty: And so, you know, as Kara Moriarty: we continue to develop, we Kara Moriarty: know that we're going to Kara Moriarty: continue to improve.
Amy Martin: In 2018, the world's Amy Martin: biggest oil and gas companies Amy Martin: together spent around 1% Amy Martin: of their budgets on clean Amy Martin: energy. Amy Martin: That's not nothing, Amy Martin: but many citizens say the Amy Martin: oil industry is still doing a Amy Martin: lot more to hurt the climate Amy Martin: than to help it. Amy Martin: So they've been using a new Amy Martin: tool pressuring banks Amy Martin: not to invest in oil Amy Martin: development.
Amy Martin: And that pressure has yielded Amy Martin: some results. Amy Martin: The European Investment Bank Amy Martin: has pledged to end financing Amy Martin: for all fossil fuel projects Amy Martin: after 2021. Amy Martin: And several other international Amy Martin: banks have specifically called Amy Martin: out the Arctic National Amy Martin: Wildlife Refuge as a place Amy Martin: where they will not invest in Amy Martin: oil and gas.
Amy Martin: As we've been putting this Amy Martin: episode together, the first Amy Martin: U.S. bank joined the club: Amy Martin: Goldman Sachs announced they Amy Martin: will not finance any new Amy Martin: drilling or oil exploration Amy Martin: in the Arctic. Amy Martin: It's unclear if or how much Amy Martin: all of this might affect the Amy Martin: outcome of a lease sale.
Amy Martin: But the public opposition, Amy Martin: combined with the relatively Amy Martin: low price of oil right now and Amy Martin: the high cost of extraction in Amy Martin: this remote area make Amy Martin: drilling in the refuge a Amy Martin: riskier proposition than most. Amy Martin: But there could be Amy Martin: a less obvious price some Amy Martin: companies hope to claim.
Kara Moriarty: Honestly, there's probably Kara Moriarty: a lot more gas in the coastal Kara Moriarty: plain than there is oil. Kara Moriarty: I mean, we have hundreds of Kara Moriarty: trillions of cubic feet of Kara Moriarty: natural gas on the North Slope. Amy Martin: If you look globally, natural Amy Martin: gas is the real story Amy Martin: of energy development in the Amy Martin: Arctic.
Amy Martin: The gas industry is booming in Amy Martin: the Russian north, and like Amy Martin: Kara said, the North Slope of Amy Martin: Alaska has enormous natural Amy Martin: gas reserves, too. Amy Martin: The problem in Alaska, though, Amy Martin: is transportation. Amy Martin: Attempts to build a gas Amy Martin: pipeline similar to the oil Amy Martin: pipeline that cuts through the Amy Martin: state have gone nowhere, Amy Martin: so far.
Amy Martin: But oil and gas executives Amy Martin: must be casting their eyes Amy Martin: longingly on all that untapped Amy Martin: gas in the refuge. Amy Martin: And even though both the oil Amy Martin: and gas markets are considered Amy Martin: to be in a state of oversupply Amy Martin: right now, Kara says Amy Martin: we have to keep opening up Amy Martin: new areas for drilling.
Kara Moriarty: What we have today will Kara Moriarty: not be enough to supply Kara Moriarty: the next 30 to 40 years. Kara Moriarty: So we have to Kara Moriarty: add resources Kara Moriarty: as we continue this Kara Moriarty: transition to Kara Moriarty: other sources of energy. Amy Martin: Even with oil at $56 Amy Martin: a barrel? Kara Moriarty: Who knows what oil price is Kara Moriarty: going to be? Kara Moriarty: I mean, the good... Amy Martin: And the discoveries in Texas-
Kara Moriarty: Right. I mean, but but the Kara Moriarty: discoveries in Texas are Kara Moriarty: still not going to help meet Kara Moriarty: the demand 30 to Kara Moriarty: 40 years from now. Kara Moriarty: So in the end, you kind Kara Moriarty: of need it all. Kara Moriarty: You have to be able Kara Moriarty: to to add to Kara Moriarty: the reserves, as I Kara Moriarty: tried to explain.
Amy Martin: I think, though, that the Amy Martin: feeling that, you know, in the Amy Martin: end we are going to need it Amy Martin: all. I mean, that's kind of the Amy Martin: crux of it, is that there are a Amy Martin: lot of people saying like, no, Amy Martin: actually, the truth of it is we Amy Martin: have to stop before we get it Amy Martin: all. Or that's not practical.
Kara Moriarty: But, but, but, but, but, Kara Moriarty: but, but but my answer Kara Moriarty: my question back to them is, Kara Moriarty: what are you going to do? Kara Moriarty: I mean, if you stop and Kara Moriarty: you know that the alternative Kara Moriarty: energy isn't going to be there, Kara Moriarty: what do you do in the meantime? Kara Moriarty: Do you go back to, Kara Moriarty: you know, candlesticks? Kara Moriarty: I mean, I don't think so.
Amy Martin: Kara is doing the same thing Amy Martin: Senators Johnston and Murkowski Amy Martin: did when I asked them about Amy Martin: this tension between drilling Amy Martin: in the refuge and mitigating Amy Martin: climate change. Amy Martin: They all responded with some Amy Martin: version of, "well, we can't Amy Martin: just shut down all drilling Amy Martin: immediately." But Amy Martin: that dodges the question.
Amy Martin: Almost everyone recognizes Amy Martin: a transition is necessary Amy Martin: here, that we can't just stop Amy Martin: all use of fossil fuels Amy Martin: tomorrow and go back to Amy Martin: candlesticks, as Kara says. Amy Martin: Where the real debate lies Amy Martin: is over when and how Amy Martin: and how fast we're going Amy Martin: to make the transition.
Amy Martin: That's where the question Amy Martin: emerges about opening up new Amy Martin: fields, especially in pristine Amy Martin: wilderness areas, and Amy Martin: especially in a context in Amy Martin: which there's ample evidence Amy Martin: that the oil industry is Amy Martin: slowing the transition down. Amy Martin: But Kara says oil companies Amy Martin: are being villainized for Amy Martin: providing reliable, affordable Amy Martin: power.
Kara Moriarty: I mean, I think that's the Kara Moriarty: other thing that gets Kara Moriarty: overlooked. Kara Moriarty: The oil and gas industry Kara Moriarty: has unlocked potential Kara Moriarty: and quality of life Kara Moriarty: for people across the globe.
Kara Moriarty: Once people have a reliable Kara Moriarty: source of power, once Kara Moriarty: they have a reliable source of Kara Moriarty: heat, especially one that they Kara Moriarty: can afford, Kara Moriarty: it opens up a whole new Kara Moriarty: opportunities for them. Kara Moriarty: And that and the data is there Kara Moriarty: to back that up.
Amy Martin: I don't think anybody's Amy Martin: questioning that Amy Martin: when you have access Amy Martin: to affordable Amy Martin: power, it benefits Amy Martin: individual humans and benefits Amy Martin: communities. It can even Amy Martin: benefit an entire state or Amy Martin: country. Amy Martin: But at the same time, that Amy Martin: has a collective impact Amy Martin: that is detrimental to all of Amy Martin: us in the long run.
Amy Martin: And so I don't think anybody Amy Martin: has to be a villain to Amy Martin: have it be like, that's a, Amy Martin: that's a problem. Amy Martin: You know, how do we solve that? Amy Martin: That like, yeah, this community Amy Martin: can do well or our country can Amy Martin: do well. Amy Martin: But all of us, as Amy Martin: humans and living things on Amy Martin: this planet are eventually Amy Martin: going to we're getting tanked Amy Martin: by the, the damage to
Amy Martin: the climate. And Amy Martin: I'm just curious, like, how do Amy Martin: you make sense of that? Kara Moriarty: Well, I think that. Kara Moriarty: Yes, we're all concerned about Kara Moriarty: making sure that our planet Kara Moriarty: is here for Kara Moriarty: more than generations to Kara Moriarty: come.
Kara Moriarty: But how do Kara Moriarty: we utilize our Kara Moriarty: knowhow and the Kara Moriarty: technologies that we have Kara Moriarty: and that we continue to improve Kara Moriarty: upon? Kara Moriarty: Because if we're not, Kara Moriarty: we're not operating the same Kara Moriarty: way. I mean, we're learning Kara Moriarty: how to be better. Kara Moriarty: But the only way you be better Kara Moriarty: is by continuing to do it.
Kara Moriarty: You don't just stop because Kara Moriarty: there is a demand for that Kara Moriarty: product. Amy Martin: At the beginning of this Amy Martin: episode, we were talking about Amy Martin: path dependance, Amy Martin: how the choices we've made in Amy Martin: the past shape what we think Amy Martin: is possible today. Amy Martin: But our human pathways Amy Martin: all happen here on Amy Martin: planet Earth.
Amy Martin: They're part of natural systems Amy Martin: that have their own momentum, Amy Martin: their own trajectories that Amy Martin: operate according to their own Amy Martin: rules. Amy Martin: And one of those rules says Amy Martin: if you burn a whole lot of Amy Martin: carbon based material very Amy Martin: quickly, you knock the Amy Martin: systems regulating the climate Amy Martin: out of whack.
Amy Martin: And it can take a very long Amy Martin: time for those systems to find Amy Martin: a new equilibrium. Amy Martin: This is the path we're Amy Martin: co-creating with our planet. Amy Martin: And the longer we stay on it, Amy Martin: the harder it is to change Amy Martin: course. Victoria Herrmann: It's hard to bring Victoria Herrmann: everyone into the same Victoria Herrmann: conversation. Amy Martin: Again, Victoria Herrmann of the Amy Martin: Arctic Institute.
Victoria Herrmann: Well, here we're talking Victoria Herrmann: about ANWR and about drilling Victoria Herrmann: and climate change, it's Victoria Herrmann: important to know that most Victoria Herrmann: conversations that happen about Victoria Herrmann: the Arctic in Washington, Victoria Herrmann: D.C., are focused on national Victoria Herrmann: security and are not about Victoria Herrmann: energy or climate Victoria Herrmann: or human welfare.
Victoria Herrmann: They are about icebreakers Victoria Herrmann: and military spending Victoria Herrmann: and our relationship to Victoria Herrmann: Russia. Victoria Herrmann: I try to continuously Victoria Herrmann: bring up climate change and Victoria Herrmann: energy development, but that Victoria Herrmann: is not the norm for Victoria Herrmann: a D.C. Victoria Herrmann: conversation about the Arctic.
Amy Martin: And in addition to security, a Amy Martin: lot of conversation about the Amy Martin: Arctic these days revolves Amy Martin: around commerce. Amy Martin: Addressing the Arctic Council Amy Martin: last spring, Secretary Amy Martin: of State Mike Pompeo talked Amy Martin: glowingly about the oil, Amy Martin: gas and minerals waiting Amy Martin: to be drilled in mind in the Amy Martin: far north.
Amy Martin: A few years earlier, the former Amy Martin: president of Iceland did the Amy Martin: same and referred to the region Amy Martin: as a new Africa. Amy Martin: This is another one of the Amy Martin: well-worn paths that shape Amy Martin: our thinking about the Arctic Amy Martin: and the refuge.
Amy Martin: For centuries, white people Amy Martin: have been imagining the far Amy Martin: north as an empty space Amy Martin: in which they have brave Amy Martin: adventures while extracting Amy Martin: valuable resources. ARCO Video: The men of Prudhoe Bay ARCO Video: are heirs to a tradition of ARCO Video: Arctic exploration begun ARCO Video: in the last century by Perry ARCO Video: and Frobisher.
ARCO Video: Searching for oil may seem ARCO Video: less romantic than racing to ARCO Video: the pole by dog sled. ARCO Video: But the potential for mankind ARCO Video: is no less impressive. Amy Martin: This is some tape from that old Amy Martin: film I played you back in our Amy Martin: first episode. Amy Martin: It was made in 1975 Amy Martin: by The Atlantic Richfield Amy Martin: Company as they were preparing Amy Martin: to start drilling at the Amy Martin: Prudhoe Bay oil field.
Amy Martin: And I just have to revisit it Amy Martin: for a minute because I find it Amy Martin: to be such a revealing artifact Amy Martin: from that time and place. Amy Martin: Just check this out. ARCO Video: Once this vast land ARCO Video: belonged to the wild animals, ARCO Video: today, there's still room for ARCO Video: the caribou to graze peacefully ARCO Video: in a largely unspoiled ARCO Video: environment.
ARCO Video: Now, the Arctic wilderness ARCO Video: must be shared with a strange ARCO Video: new breed that migrates ARCO Video: in trucks and airplanes. ARCO Video: Protecting the animals' freedom ARCO Video: through strict company ARCO Video: regulation, man ARCO Video: claims part of their land ARCO Video: to help ensure his own ARCO Video: survival. Amy Martin: This short clip contains so Amy Martin: much information about the Amy Martin: mindset at work here.
Amy Martin: We're told this land once Amy Martin: belonged to the animals, not Amy Martin: to the indigenous people of Amy Martin: this region, and now it Amy Martin: must be shared with this Amy Martin: strange new breed, Amy Martin: these men arriving to claim Amy Martin: part of the North for their own Amy Martin: survival.
Amy Martin: Of course, Alaska native people Amy Martin: have been using the land, Amy Martin: water, plants and animals of Amy Martin: this region to ensure their Amy Martin: own survival for millennia. Amy Martin: But with a few lines and a Amy Martin: sentimental soundtrack, all Amy Martin: of that is rendered invisible.
Amy Martin: ARCO gives a passing mention of Amy Martin: providing new jobs for eskimos Amy Martin: and then quickly returns to the Amy Martin: main objective, documenting Amy Martin: their own heroic battle Amy Martin: with the natural world. ARCO Video: As the storm rages, ARCO Video: nature reasserts her power ARCO Video: over man. ARCO Video: But on the land, man ARCO Video: retains control. Amy Martin: Nature is the enemy.
Amy Martin: The other, often referred Amy Martin: to with a feminine pronoun. ARCO Video: Pitting himself against nature, ARCO Video: man has beaten the odds. Amy Martin: We might not speak quite as Amy Martin: plainly about it these days, Amy Martin: but this conquering mindset Amy Martin: is still very much at work Amy Martin: in the Arctic and often Amy Martin: conquering places or Amy Martin: people begins with devaluing Amy Martin: them.
Amy Martin: This leads me in to something Amy Martin: that I found over and over Amy Martin: as I dug into the story of the Amy Martin: refuge. Amy Martin: Throughout the history of this Amy Martin: controversy, people have tried Amy Martin: to portray this area as Amy Martin: unworthy of protection Amy Martin: because it's not pretty enough. Senator Johnston: ANWR is Senator Johnston: the most misrepresented place Senator Johnston: I think I've ever seen.
Amy Martin: Again, this is Senator J. Amy Martin: Bennett Johnston. Senator Johnston: People to speak of it as Senator Johnston: if it's a beautiful area. Senator Johnston: They've conjured up this view Senator Johnston: of this beautiful Serengeti, Senator Johnston: which it is really not. Senator Johnston: It is really just Senator Johnston: the coastal plain and just a Senator Johnston: tundra.
Amy Martin: Senator Johnston and many Amy Martin: other pro-oil people I spoke Amy Martin: with claimed that conservation Amy Martin: groups put mountains in Amy Martin: pictures of the drilling area Amy Martin: to make it look more appealing. Amy Martin: Kara Moriarty said this too. Kara Moriarty: You don't even see mountains Kara Moriarty: from the 1002 area. Amy Martin: That's actually not true.
Amy Martin: The mountains are indeed Amy Martin: visible from the coastal plain, Amy Martin: and Senator Johnston is also Amy Martin: wrong when he says the 1002 Amy Martin: area doesn't support many Amy Martin: animals.
Amy Martin: The northern tundra plays an Amy Martin: important role in the life Amy Martin: cycle of dozens of species, Amy Martin: but more than the factual Amy Martin: mistakes, the real question Amy Martin: here is when did the tundra Amy Martin: become inherently less valuable Amy Martin: than a mountain range? Amy Martin: Like, who decided that? Amy Martin: Yes, Tundras tend to be flat Amy Martin: and open. Amy Martin: So do prairies. Amy Martin: Does that mean they're worthless?
Amy Martin: It's very ironic that some Amy Martin: of the politicians claiming to Amy Martin: support Inupiaq people Amy Martin: have no problem describing Amy Martin: their homelands in disparaging Amy Martin: terms. Amy Martin: For instance, former Alaska Amy Martin: Senator Ted Stevens said this Amy Martin: during a 2005 congressional Amy Martin: debate over drilling in the Amy Martin: refuge.
Amy Martin: Quote, "I defy Amy Martin: anyone to say that that is a Amy Martin: beautiful place that has to be Amy Martin: preserved for the future. Amy Martin: It is a barren wasteland. Amy Martin: Frozen wasteland." Amy Martin: End quote. Amy Martin: This tactic of devaluing a Amy Martin: place in an attempt to persuade Amy Martin: others not to protect it Amy Martin: has a long, disturbing history.
Amy Martin: This is how nuclear waste ends Amy Martin: up on Native American Amy Martin: reservations, and the tops of Amy Martin: mountains get chopped off in Amy Martin: Appalachia. Amy Martin: We're told these places are Amy Martin: ugly or unimportant, Amy Martin: so it doesn't matter if we Amy Martin: trash them.
Amy Martin: And one thing these supposed Amy Martin: sacrifice zones almost Amy Martin: always have in common is Amy Martin: that the people who live in and Amy Martin: around them don't have very Amy Martin: much money or power. Amy Martin: How, how Amy Martin: worried are you about oil Amy Martin: development? Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: I don't want to live in an Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: oilfield. Amy Martin: This is
Amy Martin: Vebjorn Aishana Reitan. We met Amy Martin: him in our first episode, he's Amy Martin: from Kaktovik, Alaska. Amy Martin: I'm sitting next to a Vebjorn Amy Martin: in his boat, heading out from Amy Martin: the village to visit the Amy Martin: coastal plain. Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: It's not Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: that important to me Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: to Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: have money, I guess.
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: And I don't think we should, Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: we should sacrifice Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: our land that makes Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: us who we are. Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Just so Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: we can have a stake Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: in an industry that's Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: ultimately going to lose, I Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: think.
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: I don't think we should Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: sacrifice what we are Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: just so they can Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: drill oil. Amy Martin: Vebjorn lands the boat and Amy Martin: we walk around a little bit on Amy Martin: the tundra. Amy Martin: It's wet and green with Amy Martin: little creeks cutting down to Amy Martin: the beach.
Amy Martin: A hawk hovers in the distance, Amy Martin: flapping its wings and staring Amy Martin: into the grass with a hunter's Amy Martin: intense focus. Amy Martin: Ted Stevens said this land Amy Martin: had no beauty at all, Amy Martin: but to Vebjorn and many other Amy Martin: people who live here, people Amy Martin: on both sides of the drilling Amy Martin: debate, this place is Amy Martin: precious.
Amy Martin: And Vebjorn says that if we Amy Martin: can't see that and feel Amy Martin: it, maybe that says Amy Martin: more about us than it does Amy Martin: about this place. Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: I think people should get out Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: more. Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: It's good for people to be out Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: on the land.
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: I think it's important to Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: live outside your house, Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: but just be locked up inside. Amy Martin: Yeah. Amy Martin: Being with Vebjorn on the Amy Martin: coastal plain of the refuge Amy Martin: made me think of a poem by Amy Martin: Wendell Berry. Amy Martin: It's called How to Be a Poet. Amy Martin: And there are these three lines Amy Martin: in the middle. Amy Martin: They go like this.
Amy Martin: "There are no un sacred places. Amy Martin: There are only sacred places Amy Martin: and desecrated places." Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Yeah. Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Everybody. Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Everybody should get out more. Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Enjoy the nature. Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Then this becomes more Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: close.,Close to you. Amy Martin: Yeah. Amy Martin: Yeah. Amy Martin: The conflict over drilling in Amy Martin: the refuge is so binary.
Amy Martin: For or against, pro Amy Martin: oil or anti oil. Amy Martin: If one side wins, the other Amy Martin: loses. Amy Martin: It's been a long, loud, Amy Martin: angry fight. Amy Martin: And it's not over yet. Amy Martin: And it's such a contrast to Amy Martin: how it feels to actually be Amy Martin: on the coastal plain.
Amy Martin: Here at the epicenter of the Amy Martin: battle, it's quiet, Amy Martin: open, calm, Amy Martin: and the enormity of the space Amy Martin: around me gives me something Amy Martin: that's increasingly hard to Amy Martin: find in our world, Amy Martin: a tangible sensation of Amy Martin: how small my own life Amy Martin: with all of its arguments, Amy Martin: really is. Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: It's beautiful Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: in its own way.
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: It's. It's not just, Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: it's not like a beautiful Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: mountain. Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: You could say it's strikingly Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: empty right now. Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: It's, it's beautiful in Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: a different way.
Amy Martin: This series was funded by Amy Martin: the Pulitzer Center, Montana Amy Martin: Public Radio, the Park Amy Martin: Foundation, the High Stakes Amy Martin: Foundation, the William H. Amy Martin: and Mary Wattis Harris Amy Martin: Foundation, and by Amy Martin: you, our listeners. Amy Martin: Thank you to all of you Amy Martin: for helping to make this show Amy Martin: happen. Amy Martin: We're going to be keeping an Amy Martin: eye on how things unfold with Amy Martin: the refuge.
Amy Martin: If you'd like to stay informed Amy Martin: about that, follow us on social Amy Martin: media and join our mailing Amy Martin: list at Thresholdpodcast.org. Amy Martin: You can also find lots of Amy Martin: pictures from our reporting Amy Martin: trips there, as well as Amy Martin: all of the audio from the first Amy Martin: two seasons of our show. Amy Martin: Again, all of that is at Amy Martin: Thresholdpodcast.org.
Amy Martin: Huge thanks to the whole Amy Martin: Threshold team for bringing Amy Martin: this series together. Amy Martin: Nick Mott and I are the Amy Martin: producers, Eva Kalea Amy Martin: is our marketing and operations Amy Martin: director, Lynn Lieu runs Amy Martin: our social media, Caysi Amy Martin: Simpson and Brook Artziniega Amy Martin: are our current interns.
Amy Martin: Meghan Myscofski was our summer Amy Martin: intern, Tej Teddy is Amy Martin: helping us write grants, Amy Martin: Michelle Woods is our graphic Amy Martin: designer and our board Amy Martin: includes Hana Carey, Dan Amy Martin: Carreno, Kara Cromwell, Amy Martin: Katie DeFusco, Matt Herlihy Amy Martin: and Rachel Klein. Amy Martin: Big thanks to them and Amy Martin: to Michael Connor and Frank Amy Martin: Allen.
Amy Martin: Our music is by the Amy Martin: ever fabulous Travis Amy Martin: Yost.