Swinging on the Garden Gate with Sandy Hope and Elizabeth Jarrett Andrew

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J.P. Der Boghossian

Hey everyone, big episode today.

When you were growing up, or even as an adult, did anyone ever tell you that you are divine?

The idea of being beloved by a creator, a diety, or God, of being considered divine by them is reserved for straight people and cisgender people only. At least according to the straights. And, on the whole, they do a pretty good job of making everyone else feel like they’re not divine.

But today, we’re reclaiming our sexualities and our gender identities as the gifts they are. We’re reclaiming the divine.

My name is J.P. Der Boghossian and your listening to This Queer Book Saved My Life a GLAAD Media Award nominee for Outstanding Podcast!

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Sandy Hope
I'm Sandy Hope and my pronouns are she, her. I identify as bisexual and I am a licensed mental health counselor. I've been doing that for over years. I work with people around sexuality, spirituality. I work with individuals, couples, people who struggle with eating disorders.

J.P. Der Boghossian
In her practice, Sandy uses a model called Internal Family Systems. And bear with me, I’m not a therapist, so I’m going to try and explain this as I understood the research. So, in this approach to therapy, we have a core self, but we can also have additional additional parts of our selves, who can get frozen in time due to any number of endured hardships. Say, for example, that at -years old we went through a period of severe anxiety about our sexuality. We grew up, but we never had the opportunity to heal from that. Well, in Internal Family Systems, the work is around engaging with that -year old self within us who’s frozen in time and stuck there and helping them to process and heal.

For Sandy, it is has been a powerful approach to the patients she’s worked with.

Sandy Hope
I think there's a lot of grief in life. So everybody's grieving something that we've lost, you know, and I also have experienced a lot of grief and feel like I'm able to be with people with that. I love being able to come alongside people and just witness their stories and love them and just be with them.

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Elizabeth Jarrett Andrew
I'm Elizabeth Jarrett Andrew and I use she her pronouns. I have written five books. I teach creative writing, particularly as a spiritual practice. So I'm really interested in how the writing process helps us come alive, heals us, as well as the literary craft. And...

I am trained as a spiritual director, but mostly I use those skills in coaching writers and book development. So using revision as transformational practice.

J.P. Der Boghosisan
Elizabeth’s books include the novel Hannah, Delivered, her memoir Swinging on the Garden Gate, and Writing the Sacred Journey. She will be leading two writers retreats this year, and she offers workshops based on her book Writing the Sacred Journey which focus on writing stories to transform self and the world.

Elizabeth Jarrett Andrew
And my latest big endeavor is a new collective called the Eye of the Heart Center, which is a collective of artists and seekers who are dedicated to using artistic practices as on ramps into spiritual practices.

J.P. Der Boghossian
Eye of the Heart Center is based in Bloomington, Minnesota. They offering contemplative writing circles, and practice groups, and really focus on building a writing community around as they describe, “orienting our hearts toward the gifts of writing–insight, healing, growth, and meaningful presence. Each of us is a gift to the whole, and our best gifts to others are hearts widened by creativity.”

We have so much to explore and contemplate today. Here is my conversation with Sandy and Elizabeth.

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J.P. Der Boghossian
Sandy, what is the book that saved your life?

Sandy Hope
Well, it is Swinging on the Garden Gate by Elizabeth.

God, and I don't always say that, but I feel like there was a, it wasn't a coincidence that Elizabeth and I were brought together somewhat through her book, but she came to Rochester to speak on sexuality and spirituality and my friend said, Sandy, you might want to go to that. So I went and

Oh my, it was wonderful to hear her speak about those two topics that are dear to my heart.

And at that meeting, Elizabeth was selling her book. And of course I wanted to buy that. So I bought it and I was telling Elizabeth before that I had have her copy with her little blessing written in her handwriting. And that means a lot to me.

And then I began reading that, which was really a pivotal time for me to read that book.

J.P. Der Boghossian
Absolutely. Elizabeth, for our listeners who haven't read your book yet, would you give us a little description of it and what they can expect when they open to that first page?

Elizabeth Jarrett Andrew
Sure. So Swinging on the Garden Gate is a spiritual memoir and I wrote it in my late twenties. And it was motivated by the, so you know, I had was coming out to myself in my s and exploring sexual identity and really alone and confused and, and of course, being the reader that I am scouring library and bookstore shelves for other people's experience that might help inform my own and really not finding very much. So I ended up kind of writing my way writing, kind of creating the map as I was living it. So swinging tells the story of just my increasing inner conflict until kind of the, the irony with my story is the light bulb went off that I was bisexual at church.

[J.P. and Sandy laugh]
Ha ha.

Elizabeth Jarrett Andrew
That was just this pretty amazing and I think unique experience to have had the church teach me who I am. But really, even given that I had a lot of support in my coming out process, it still was a really lonely and difficult process. And I think the essential question underneath swinging on the Garden Gate is what does it mean to be embodied spirit, and particularly in this body that is attracted to all genders and that gives me information in ways that other people don't receive it. And so that kind of theological conundrum of how do I come to love this body if the culture that I'm steeped in doesn't? How do I learn to see it as a gift, as blessed, as something that...

that is a beautiful source of life. And then also kind of the step beyond that to how do I kind of see the divine within me, within myself. Something I didn't say when I introduced myself is I've been a lifelong contemplative and am really steeped in Christian mystical tradition more than traditional Christian practices, like church practices. And that question of being embodied spirit is really critical to the contemplative tradition.

So in many ways being bisexual and the journey of learning about my sexuality and moving into it with ease and then learning to see the divine in it has really set the trajectory of my spiritual path.

J.P. Der Boghossian
I love that. Thank you for sharing. Sandy, had you read Swinging prior to this author speaking event?

Sandy Hope
No.

J.P. Der Boghossian
No, okay. So I'm curious then if you could unpack a little bit more, why do you think your friend recommended the event for you to go to?

Sandy Hope
Oh, my dear friend. She has been on my journey with me for maybe years, I don't know, and has just seen me struggle, you know, up and down with these very, very things, my sexuality and my spirituality, and that they just never seemed to fit together, that they couldn't possibly be in the same body, in the same person, in my life together. And so she was just thinking, maybe this will help you. Maybe, maybe it will give you some freedom. And Elizabeth, just listening to you talk about your book, it's just like, and that is why your book and you have been such an important part in saving my life and helping me to To do exactly what you just described but that never had been presented to me that possibly My sexuality could be a gift.

That I could be divine that God could be pleased with me. I mean there was just none of that. It was always you know, I didn't start going to church until I was , but at that point I really needed the structure and the community, because my home life was, there was neglect there and...So when I went at , I just went in hook, line and sinker said, Oh, good. Here's finally I've got this. And, and it became foundational. But as I discovered my diverse sexuality at , it was like, Oh no, that I'm not doing what they're telling me I'm supposed to do. I'm, I'm now the sinful one. And, um, because sex was always sinful, you know, they didn't talk too much about it being anything other than that. And that was just really damaging in so many different ways, but especially around my, my bisexuality. And, um, yeah, so.

J.P. Der Boghossian
May I ask? May I ask which denomination or tradition were you brought up in at years old to ?

Sandy Hope
The Protestant Church of the Nazarene. Yeah, so they're very fundamentalist, very conservative.

Yeah, as I said, even though that was really helpful for me at that time, I've been in recovery from that for many years trying to accept all of who I am.

Yeah, and then, you know, I married my husband. And because partly because that's what I was supposed to do, right? I was supposed to marry a man It's hard for me to even say that online because I know that my husband will listen to this But he you know, we've we have an open conversation about my sexuality But but yeah, I just felt like okay, this is just what you do You know, if you're going to be a good christian a good maybe even a good American, you know Um That's what you do and I told my husband before we got married that I would always love women. And neither of us knew exactly what that would look like moving forward. Um.

So around the time that I met Elizabeth and read her book. I was exploring my love of women more and that was causing conflict within myself and eventually with my husband and I and just the way, Elizabeth, the way that you talk about your journey, just so honestly and so transparently, noticing that dynamic in your body and being curious about it in a loving way as opposed to, oh my gosh, I got to cover this up and then having such a loving experience in your church. But you're just ongoing. As you go through the book, you're just still continuing to come back to that. How do I put all the parts of my life together to integrate that? Be loving towards myself.

J.P. Der Boghossian
How are you doing that then as you're reading, Swinging on the Garden Gate for the first time? What was opening up for you to be able to begin to bring those parts of yourself together?

Sandy Hope
Well, I hit, I need to say that I hit, and I was talking with Elizabeth about the timing of this, and I'm not quite sure exactly how it all meshed, but I had this crisis when I was actually having a relationship with a woman that I was telling my husband about. I was just had so much struggle inside myself, polarized, you know, and got very depressed and ended up in the psychiatric emergency room because I was, I couldn't handle all of that inside of me and ended up doing psychiatric day treatment. And while I was in there, I had gone to church at one point and they talked about something about homosexuality and being a sin and and I just went home and was very suicidal. You know, I just thought there is no way that God will ever accept me. And so it's hopeless. You know, I might as well just end this. And so going back to Elizabeth's book and how she was saying just the opposite, you know, that in fact, God really loves, loves you Sandy and created you this way. And then I actually, at that same time when I first met Elizabeth, I said, oh my gosh, I've got to have spiritual direction from her. So I was also seeing her as a spiritual director. And that was one of my confusions about talking today was that, yes, Swinging on the Garden Gate is an amazing book.

And Elizabeth is an amazing woman, you know, and she has really, both the book and Elizabeth were key in helping me stay alive during that time. Just coming alongside me and um and being able to share from her own personal experience made it even more important and impactful as she, yeah, just brought a different truth, a different way, a different God, really. A more loving God to my life.

J.P. Der Boghossian
I think a lot of folks, particularly those who have grown up in the church, and I'll include myself in that two traditions, Wesleyan and Armenian Protestant, get to a point where the messages are so negative and so cosmically damning in a sense, right? That you've been rejected by your creator and rejected by the divine. I've seen a lot of folks then choose to deny and walk away from the church and their faith tradition. And that causes harm, right, in and of itself. I'm curious how then for you, you still had this connection that you wanted to have and wanted to keep. Why do you think you stayed and continued and wanting to have that faith tradition? As for other folks who said, no, I'm not gonna do that anymore. This is harmful to me. And the reason why I'm asking the question is that I know that there are a lot of folks because they write into the show or in the work that I've done around queer health equity, where they are trying to put these two things together. And I think it's important for us to share those stories around that. So if you don't mind sharing a little bit about why you wanted to stay in and stay connected to your faith tradition.

Sandy Hope
Yeah, it's a great question. And I have asked that question over the years. Why are you doing this? Why do you keep walking back into that same church, right? And it really does. And this is why I wanted to mention this in the beginning. It really goes back to that year olds part of me that even now and Elizabeth, I've shared some of my writing with her around this that

And I call that part, this is the internal family systems counseling theory that we all have different parts. And the name of this part is Faith. She's and she can be very, well, mostly fearful, right? She just says, we have to stay, this is our foundation. This is where we came into ourselves, where we got this learning and we can't go against it because God won't love us.

And yet I have this other part of me that holds my bisexuality, and I call her Aglenda, which actually means mirror. And so Faith and Aglenda have gone back and forth. You know, Aglenda will say, well, I just want to explore this, or I want to honor the my sexuality. And Faith will say, no, you're going to take us straight to hell. Right? And that might sound kind of funny, but faith can, she can just cry about that. I'm so scared. And so it was really faith that kept saying we have to stay, we have to stay. And then finally now I'm in a church that is welcoming and affirming. It's just like, oh my God. It's a breath of fresh air. It's a drink of.

It's so life-giving to sit in a church and to have all of me loved and accepted. It's just like the first time I sat in a support group there, I just thought I can't believe that I could talk about my sexuality in church and not be condemned or tried to be healed or something.

Yeah, so I think faith kind of just kept me going. And then now we're in this place where we're just really grateful that we have this community that does come around and does say the things that Elizabeth had been telling me for years. Right, so I'm grateful.

J.P. Der Boghossian
Is there a particular chapter, section, or passage in the book that either when you were first reading it or looking back on it now was kind of fundamental towards making that happen?

Sandy Hope
You know, it's interesting because one of the things that I did highlight as I was thinking about it, and I have lots of different quotes and I don't think I can come up with one quickly. So, but it really is exactly what Elizabeth talked about. That in her church, they were talking about bisexuality and how we want to accept those who identify that way.

And that they're just as welcome and just as loving or lovable and acceptable as we are. And yeah, and just how Elizabeth embraced that part of her. It's just this like, as I said, it's through the book, and I'm sorry, I don't have another example at the tip of my tongue, but just coming back to that, coming back, you know, like she in the story when her all of her belongings burnt, you know, just having to reassess this God, right? In a broader sense. Yeah, so lots of different places.

Elizabeth Jarrett Andrew
I wonder if I can jump in and respond to your question about leaving church or sticking around? Because I think all of us have an inner life. We all have souls. We all have our being. And so many of us, for so many of us, the only place that shines the light on that inner being is our faith of upbringing. You know, it's our religious practice. And when that religious practice is toxic, you do need to protect it. Like, absolutely, that's the sacred part of each of us. And we absolutely need to keep it safe. So I

completely respect and honor those who need to leave their faith of origin. And at the same time, in our culture, there are very few spaces where that inner life is nurtured. And so,

Sandy Hope
Absolutely.

Elizabeth Jarrett Andrew
And for many of us, our culture is bound up with our faith tradition, our family is bound up with our faith tradition. And so there's this deep hunger that happens that I think is also really, so, I mean, I feel like my story has been unique because I grew up in this multicultural, small, liberal United Methodist church that, you know...it was dying and so every, you know, all the older people just love the younger people to death, you know, and like I could do no wrong, including coming out bisexual, like they were all kind of shocked and like, oh my gosh, what are we gonna do with this? And then they kind of got over it because they were like, they didn't have anyone else to love, right? So, so I mean, I'm very, very fortunate that way. And then when I came out to Minnesota and found a church here, I think I gravitated to an inclusive place. So I've been very, very fortunate that way. But in the bigger scheme of things, United Methodist Church still doesn't condone same-sex marriage. And my partner and I got married outside the church. And ordaining queer pastors is still an issue. And actually, the whole church is dividing over it.

J.P. Der Boghossian
Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Jarrett Andrew
So, and honestly, so much of the culture of Sunday morning church is, is not just detrimental to people inhabiting their bodies joyfully. But just...stale and dying. And so where my path has really gone is into the mystical dimension of Christianity. And so like, how can I stay true to my faith of origin in a way that nurtures my soul and dismiss the rest? And I know there are Christians out there who would say that I'm probably not Christian because...because I don't use the doctrine and the creeds. But each of our faith traditions have such wealth and such gifts. And so to be able to anchor myself in that depth is really important to me.

J.P. Der Boghossian
I'm curious, well, so writing a book is not easy. Getting it out to the world is less easy. So what was driving you to write Swinging on the Garden Gate?

Elizabeth Jarrett Andrew
Well, writers write to find out what we think, and I wrote to come out. So, you know, initially it was just my coming out to myself. And, you know, everyone who's come out knows that once you've come into awareness of your identity, you kind of have to go back in your past and rewrite it. And it's like, okay, the version that my parents told me about who I am is no longer working and the version, you know, that the culture is telling me is no longer accurate. And so who do I say that I am? Which is actually the question that Jesus asks as follows. Who do you say that I am? So I had to say, who do I say that I am? Who am I? Who is my life experience writing me to be? And so that was the main reason I wrote it. The kind of a secondary reason was that I wanted to write the book that my younger self needed.

I think a lot of people write memoirs for that reason. It's like, oh, I needed this company. And then at some point in the writing process, I realized that I was in a really privileged position of being a white woman who has so many supportive family and friends around me and I have the capacity to be really out in the world about my story and so I wanted to be. I think, you know, it's kind of a weird thing because liberal Protestants aren't evangelical, but I do feel kind of evangelical about this in the sense that I really, well here's a good example. So the book came out in and went out of print after six years or so. It was published with the Unitarian Press and had a small print run, and it did really well for that sphere. But I had all these boxes of books in my garage, and so I sold them online, and I was still selling them at my book events and the like, and people were still reading it. And so, gosh, maybe years after it went out of print, and I was going around to some two-year colleges, speaking at their GLBTQA groups.

And I was just, you know, it was like a whole generation later of queer people that I was reading to. And I had these young people in the audience raising their hands and saying, wait a minute, is it possible to be both queer and Christian? Or even worse, is it possible to be queer and spiritual? And that just like broke my heart. I was just like, oh my gosh, that here it is, you know years later. And actually, I think it was even longer than that. I think it's more like years. And in some ways, that division is widened.

So that's when I went back to the Unitarians and I said, I'm going to reprint this book. Do you want to go at it before that? And they were like, yes, we want to reprint it. Because in some ways they think that, you know, they agree with me that the rift between religion and the queer community has just gotten so wide that people are really in pain because of it.

J.P. Der Boghossian
I always like to ask questions for writers, particularly of memoir and nonfiction, about point of view and structure and why you made the choices that you did because you are kind of framing your own story and telling that. And there can be other people that are like, wait a minute, you know, like the story I tell, my parents would be like, excuse me, what are you talking about? You know, but it's different point of view, right? And different right structures. And so could you share a little bit about...the structure that you use in the book, the point of view you use in the book and why you made those choices.

Elizabeth Jarrett Andrew
Yeah. So the book follows kind of a front story, back story structure. And the front story is my landing in my late twenties at a retreat center at an intentional community where I was moving for indefinitely. And

And, you know, again, struggling with what does it mean to be in a Christian community? And who am I here? And how did I get here? And then flashing back to the backstory, which is my coming out story, which kind of tells my trajectory. And I guess I should back up and say that. That.

Spiritual direction was kind of critical for me in my coming out because I was motivated by the sense of being stuck. I really felt like I wasn't growing personally, that I was teaching seventh grade, I was kind of in a rut. I was, you know, aware that I had this confusing attraction and didn't know what to do about it. Was attending this church, couldn't make sense of it all. And so I sought out a spiritual director and in the course of working with her, became aware that my stuckness in terms of my spiritual life, in terms of me becoming most fully who I'm meant to be was related to my sexual identity. And I had this image at that point where I really, really wanted to grow. Back then, I would have said grow in my relationship with God. I really wanted to grow in my relationship with God, but I was kind of standing on the edge of a cliff. And in order to keep going, I had to jump off.

I remember my spiritual director saying, and what is that cliff? And I saying, I can't tell you right now. But eventually I did. And so what I think what's kind of interesting for me is that my coming out was really triggered by my longing for God.

And so then the book goes back to the beginning and traces, okay, where did that longing for God come from? And what did I mean by God? And why, you know? And then traces that into the blossoming that understanding myself, both the grief, the terrific grief and pain of understanding myself as bisexual, but then the blossoming that came from fully moving into that sense of identity.

J.P. Der Boghossian
Thank you for that. Speaking of spiritual direction, so Sandy, take me through, well, both Sandy and Elizabeth, take me through when you first reach out to Elizabeth. So you've read this amazing memoir, it's having this, you know, impact on your life saving, and then you decide to reach out. Like what prompted that?

Sandy Hope
Well, I definitely have this part of me that always wants to grow, that always wants to be on the edge, that's always pushing me to learn and then gives me this boldness because actually it was actually switched that because I had I was standing in front of Elizabeth at this talk that she gave and she handed me her book. I then said

I want you to be my spiritual director. At least that's how I remember. I don't know if you remember it that way Elizabeth, but yeah, it just gives me this boldness that if I see something I want, I just move toward it. And then, you know, read her book and yeah, I could just sense hearing her story that there was a lot that I could learn from Elizabeth about my sexuality and my spirituality, even though I'm older than she is. It seems like I've had this really slow growth. In fact, one of the things that you did in another podcast was to ask what book you've read. And the book, She's Not There, was really important to me in seeing her journey in becoming or coming out to the world and to herself. And it was encouraging that she's actually about my age and it took her a long time. So yeah, that was helpful. But yeah, I could see in Elizabeth that

She had a lot of wisdom that I needed. And while I was in those really dark, dark suicidal times questioning whether I should even live or not, at that point, Elizabeth and I were, since we were in two different states, we were just meeting over the phone, because I don't know, Zoom probably wasn't a thing back then. And just coming into to her presence and to God's presence. She would say, let's just take a moment and breathe. She'd encouraged me to light a candle to represent God's presence. And she just modeled for me who God is really, you know, that this loving acceptance and wisdom that's always available for us if we'll come and trust enough that that's true.

J.P. Der Boghossian
I always love, they've been rare actually on the show where the guest and the author have had the opportunity to meet prior to the episode that we have here on the podcast. And so I just, I'm so thrilled that you were both able to have that connection. It's really special. It doesn't happen a lot, I guess is where I'm going with that. It doesn't happen a lot to have those connections. And so thank you for sharing about that.

There is a personal right dynamic to have spiritual direction. And so I don't want to ask any like personal questions related to that. What I would though like to ask Elizabeth is, what is your approach to that? Like how do you approach, like do you have a queer perspective on spiritual direction that may be different than someone who identifies as like heterosexual or cisgender?

Elizabeth Jarrett Andrew
Oh, I love that question so much. That is such a great question. So for those that don't know, spiritual direction is just a form of companioning someone on their spiritual journey. And it's not like therapy where there's some sort of end results that you're aiming toward. It's just an ongoing witnessing and mirroring and kind of open-hearted, open-ended question asking. And so, actually, I'm going to answer a different question first than I'm going to get to yours. I would say being a memoirist has really impacted my spiritual direction a tremendous amount because our life experiences are, I think, a form of scripture.

And that there are these beautiful messages and beautiful wisdom and insight and unity that is inherent in our lived experience. And as a writing coach, I'm always working with memoirists to get their stories down on the page and then make them beautiful. You make them so that they

And there's just this trust that I bring to the process that coherence is inherent in our life experiences. And that is very much what I bring to spiritual direction that there's this bigger...connection that we all share to the past, to the future, to the Earth, to our ancestors, you know, that there's this meaning and relationship that we are in.

But to get to your wonderful question about queer spiritual direction, I think that I'm on a little bit of a mission around this because I think queer people, anyone, anyone who's gone through the process of discernment, what I call discernment, in listening to their body as opposed to outside messages about their body, or listening to their sense of identity as opposed to outside messages about their sense of identity. Anyone who's gone through that discernment process brings tremendous gift to the world because there's that experience of deep listening to the evidence, you know, and trusting, trusting the, that evidence, trusting the life experience as truthful, as containing truth. And, and when we, so those who have gone through it bring that wisdom into their presence.

And lots of times I think, because it's not a wisdom that most people recognize, we tend to not recognize it ourselves. But I honestly think that those who have come out, the queer community who have come out, have so much to offer the bigger conversation around faith and spirit because we have, we're practiced in that discernment. And I think that there's so much further we can go with it, you know, so we're really good at sexual identity, but what about our sense of identity is humans, like what does it mean to come out as a human, or what does it mean to come out as a being in relationship to the bigger beingness of our planet? So I think that the map that we've traced by coming out, we really can continue to follow as we continue to grow in our sense of identity. And I will also say that coming out is not just the purview of the queer community that all of us have to come out many, many times in our lives. And I love bringing that coming out narrative to my street folks, because they also struggle with coming out. I work with people who, am I really a writer? Is this really, you know? And it's like, okay, well, maybe it's time to come out as a writer. And, but I mean, that's kind of a lighter example.

But there's more critical things like coming out and truth telling in our families, regardless of the content of the truth. So that coming out model, I think, is a really valuable model for coming alive. And to me, that's what the spiritual journey is about, is about coming more alive and coming fully into our aliveness.

Sandy Hope
Elizabeth, did you really accept your sexuality when you realized it? Because I guess in reading your book, it just felt, even though I caught the struggle, it just felt like, yeah, this is just who I am. And that's hard for me to imagine because I've struggled with it for years.

Elizabeth Jarrett Andrew
You know, it's always a shock to realize what you really are. So no, I mean, I can't say that I did accept it right away, especially since, you know, I had all of these horrible associations with bisexuality.

Unfaithful and promiscuous and can't be in a committed relationship. I had all of those associations initially. And then also, there is a bi community, but it's smaller and harder to find, and the queer community is not always welcoming. So it was really hard to find my people.

Um, so, so I don't, I hope I didn't diminish the challenge of it because it was quite challenging. On the other hand, I had parents that were, um, incredibly supportive of who I was, you know, all the way through. When, when I came out to my parents, there was just like this...and my dad didn't say anything and my mom said, I don't know what to make of this, but know that I'll love you regardless.

And then like a week later, I flew back to Minnesota and I start getting, this is my dad's form of loving me, like all of the clippings about queer rights from the New York Times, he put them in the mail and mailed them to me. So that was his way of saying, okay, I'm working on this. I'm reading the Times. But, but, you know, so, so just given that kind of baseline, I just started with a really solid, solid foundation of love that that is all gift and many, many people don't start with that. And so I had that to fall back on and I'm just very, you know, appreciative of that.

Sandy Hope
Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful. And I don't think you did diminish it. I was just so painfully aware of how much I had struggled. Yeah. And for reasons that you definitely said that not only was the church saying to be queer at all was a sin, but then the queer community was saying to be bisexual was just that I couldn't decide, you know, or whatever. So it was like wherever I looked, it was like, I guess acceptable.

Elizabeth Jarrett Andrew
Mm-hmm. And you know, Sandy, I think one of the tremendous gifts of your story is like how amazing to have arrived where you are now. And like what a huge courageous journey you've taken.

Sandy Hope
Thank you. And I was feeling like even this podcast is like a huge step for me, right? And I thought, well, it's not, I mean, it's not that big, but it is just another step in my journey is saying, yes, this is who I am. And I don't have to be embarrassed or feel shame about that. I can just show up. And my hope, actually, I was telling a couple of people, which is my hope in all of my life.

That somehow by being on this podcast, somebody would feel like they were lovable and know that there is a being that just accepts them and adores them.

You know, I was thinking about my second spiritual director that I had in the context of all trying to accept this. He said, Sandy, what in God created you exactly the way God wanted to? And he knew that my passion is to help people love and accept themselves. So what if God made you exactly the way God wanted you? And in order to develop that in you gave you that gift of wanting to help people feel loved and accepted. In order to develop that in you, he gave you your bisexuality?

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J.P. Der Boghossian
Sandy continues to create a community around her, which includes reaching out to a researcher and professor at the University of Kansas who is conducting research on older women who identify as bisexual. And Sandy is looking forward to supporting and contributing to that research.

If you would like to connect with Sandy, you can visit her website Sandra Hope Counseling dot com. If you would like to work with her as your therapist you can find more information there. Sessions are held remotely. She also has a number of resources on her website, including movies, books, and articles.

Elizabeth is at work on a middle grade fiction book, which focuses on a character who is exploring their gender identity. She told me she is excited to not only get into questions of self-identity, but also relational identity. Who am I as part of this community or who am I in relationship to the earth.

Elizabeth has two websites. Her author website is elizabeth jarrett andrew dot com. There you can find more information about her books, writing coaching, and workshops. She has also a website called spiritual memoir dot com. It is a resource for folks using personal narrative to explore their spiritual life.

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[theme music starts]

J.P. Der Boghossian
So, what did you like about this episode? If you made it this far into the episode, I bet it was something! Leave us a review on your app and share a few words. You’d be helping listeners who are new to the show and it makes me feel good! That’s motivation, right?
Our podcast is executive produced by Jim Pounds, accounting and creative support provided by Gordy Erickson. Our associate producers are Archie Arnold, K Jason Bryant and David Rephan, Natalie Cruz, Jonathan Fried, Paul Kaefer, Nicole Olilla, Joe Perrazo, Bill Shay, and Sean Smith. Our Patreon subscribers are Steven D, Steven Flam, Ida Gotëberg, Thomas Mckna, and Gary Nygaard.
Our soundtrack and sound effects were provided through royalty free licenses. Please visit thisqueerbook.com/music for track names and artists.
We are on social media. @thisqueerbook and @J.P.derboghossian on Instagram. We have a facebook page and I’m @J.P.derboghossian dot bsky dot social on Blue Sky.
As always, you can connect with us through our website, thisqueerbook.com, and if you want to be on the show, fill out the form on the home page.
And until our next episode, see you queers and allies in the bookstores!
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