Ep. 189: Finding Strength, Courage & Love Through Psychedelics & Sound Healing (feat. Shelley DeMarco)

On to this one time on psychedelics In the current psychedelic renaissance , many people who otherwise had never been interested in psychedelic medicines are now finding interest in working with them , whether it's through the mainstream , the self-development or spiritual industries or otherwise .

It's clear that , with this many people with little to no prior experience now entering this realm , that the necessity for proper training and education are more important than ever . This being said , we're also seeing a lot of individuals with little to no training now positioning themselves as guides , shamans , etc .

And while I'd like to believe they all have the best of intentions at heart , this is something that we all must be cautious around , as the truth is that , without the proper guidance , these medicines can do more harm than good within the human experience .

Today's guest on the show is a dear friend and a client of mine who has extensive education in the realms of psychedelic therapy , integrated family systems , or PARTS work , as it is commonly referred to , various therapeutic modalities , such as sound healing and much , much more , and in this episode I brought her on to discuss her own background in these medicines ,

some of the most powerful modalities and offerings she currently brings her clients through , what some of the results she supports her clients in receiving look like and what to look for when finding a psychedelic guide for yourself .

This episode is near and dear to my heart , as it is so important that we are able to understand how to use discernment in who we work with , and our intention with today's episode is that you can each walk away with confidence in your ability to navigate the psychedelic space moving forward .

So please help me and welcome my amazing friend , shelly DeMarco to the show . Shelly DeMarco , my dear friend , I am super excited that you are here with me today .

You know , as I said in the intro to all you guys tuning in , shelly and I met each other a few years back now probably a couple of years anyway and you went through Connect with Cannabis and right off the bat I realized like you are an absolute unit .

You know , I get a lot of people in the programs that are newer to this kind of work , you know , and it's not every day I get someone with so much experience and we become dear friends and , you know , work together in other ways as well , so I'm so excited to have you here . How's your day going ?

Before we dive into all the juiciness we're going to dive into oh gosh , it's a beautiful day here and I'm so excited .

So I'm glad to hear that you're getting to have one of those nice cool off periods . You know , up here it's warming up , Down there it's cooling off that you look forward to .

End of a beach body for so long , which we connected on because I did P90X for years . And then , of course , you made your transition into psychedelic therapy and being a psychedelic therapist and everything you're doing now . So how did you first get interested in the idea of psychedelics ? You know , was that something you were always open to ?

Did you experiment back in the day , or was this something that kind of birthed out of you later on in life ?

But back then , you know , it was really more of like connection time with your friends or just having a good time . There was no knowledge at that time , in my circles anyway , of you know , using these compounds for growth and for spiritual development and all the things that we're learning and doing now .

Back in the day it was just one of my favorite things to connect with friends and have a good time . But then , you know , I grew up , got the job , you know , had four children , was just kind of living my life and , you know , just just getting by , doing , doing , doing .

Okay , you know , but I'd had some serious losses in my in my life and I , um , my father had taken his own life in 2007 .

And I , it was like I had just had my youngest child and I had no time to mourn , I had no time to even think , cause I just had to get up and go to work every day and I remember you know just kind of life was just like that for a while .

It just would , you know , do my best , of course , getting into health coaching and exercise and the P90Xs and all that . That was really good and it helped .

But I remember one day I was listening to , I think , the Tim Ferriss podcast and I heard James Fadiman talking about microdosing and I was like , oh , this is interesting and I had never thought that these were compounds that could be used for healing and for help with depression and anxiety and you know just so many things PTSD .

And so immediately I was like perked up and thought about it for myself and so I started doing research and I got my own coach and I started using just microdosing was okay , right , microdosing was like I'm not really doing drugs . You know , and so so that seems very plausible to me .

And I and I did notice that my life was starting to turn around in really interesting ways , like I had been a solid you know wine drinker , like solid , every night five o'clock , the bottle was open . That was what you did , you know Italian household . We were cooking , it was what you're supposed to do , right and so .

But I didn't notice how much wine was creeping into my life , how much alcohol in general , and just kind of the behavior that would come from that , you know , in general , and just kind of the behavior that would come from that . You know , just the sadness and the rumination that would come after that .

And I realized , after you know a few weeks of microdosing , that I had gone a whole week without even thinking about drinking and I was like , oh , you know what I mean . It was like I didn't even realize I hadn't been drinking , and so that was when I really started to see , oh , this is powerful , this is powerful medicine .

And so then I dove deeper , started searching for myself , for a macro journey , and then , once I , you know , I went to Mexico and I had a beautiful experience with an indigenous family , I was like , this is it ? This is what you know I can use to help me heal .

And then I started realizing oh , all these clients that I'm helping in their health journey , that this was also part of that . And so I started learning facilitation , got into sound healing , breath work , all the different things that kind of accentuate the medicine and help with the path of integration .

And now I've been , you know , doing this full time with with hundreds and hundreds of people , and so it's just been a miracle in my life to be able to serve and help people .

Right , like , maybe you took a certain path in life like you and I both did , right , all right , I guess we got to get with the times and grow up and become an adult and all these things and get the corporate job , just to realize that we weren't really happy there , things , and get the corporate job just to realize that we weren't really happy there .

But when we looked around , you know , everyone was kind of just seemingly happy . You know , again , you don't really notice it until you notice how much people drink or how much they're abusing XYZ thing bad food , pornography , cannabis , drugs , whatever it is , you know . But again , I think that a lot of people are going through that like slow death of sorts .

You know where , they're not sick necessarily , but they're just kind of kicking the can along . You know they're not really thriving in life , they're merely surviving , and the amount of courage it takes to actually admit to yourself that you are just merely surviving and that there's another level coming for you .

You may not know what that level is yet and it doesn't really matter , but to have the courage and the faith and the tenacity to actually go forward into that , it takes a lot of courage , you know , and part of the reason I do this show is to show everyone like , if we can do it , so can you .

You know , like we didn't have any certain skill set beforehand that made us able to see these things . It's just that when the fear of staying the same outweighs the fear of change , that's when change can happen , and in a really big way .

We can actually thank those things like in your life , right that alcohol consumption , the job you were working at you didn't love , you know . Even your father , you know taking his own life right .

Those are obviously things that are very challenging to experience in one's life , but looking back in hindsight , we can see how those things were triggers for you , and they could have easily been triggers to fall deeper into the hole , but you allowed those triggers to actually allow you to rise out of that , and I think that's such a good hero's journey , because

our mess really does come from our mission . You know , our mission comes from our mess , rather , you know , and that's exactly what happened to me as well , you know . I mean , I was addicted to cannabis , my dad had passed away from cancer and all these things , and that's where all my mission showed up , and that's one of the main things that I know .

You know , we know we talk about all the time with different people and whatnot and the groups and everything like that is like how can you take this metaphorical mess that you feel you're in right now and turn it into a mission in disguise ? And so it's really cool that you were able to do that , you know , and it's really inspiring as well .

He was declining , he I knew he was drinking too much , I knew he was feeling down and he had ended up in the hospital for allegedly a stroke and in retrospect it looks like he was originally trying to take his life then .

But I remember talking to my friend and saying , yeah , you know , the doctors put him on this antidepressant it was a very well-known antidepressant and you know to try to help him . And she said , yeah , that's good . She says , only thing is that if they're at all suicidal , it will help them execute . And I remember saying , oh well , no way , like no way .

My dad would never do that , like no , he's not that kind of person . And two weeks later he was dead . He's not that kind of person . And two weeks later he was dead .

And so for me , if there's a way to help just one person get better and find a way out of their depression or anxiety or despair , then I feel like my father's death isn't in vain then , because these are important medicines to help people heal .

And so I really feel , driven from that experience , that if I had just known then what I know now , maybe he'd still be here 100% .

You know he put a lot of his self worth into his business and into his external life and so when that started failing and he couldn't really find a way out , he didn't really see a purpose for himself anymore .

And so when he started getting lung pain and things like that no-transcript feeling right now , if that's the price to pay for being able to continue going on my mission , that is a price I'll pay every time , because it's just the same way as if I go to the gym and maybe I'm tired that day and you day and every voice in my head is saying don't do that ,

I don't want to go to the gym . But if you listen to that voice long enough , you'll end up overweight , diseased , unhealthy , whatever , right In the gym analogy anyway .

And so I think those voices come up a lot and I think that having things that can allow us to quote , unquote , beat that inner critic is so valuable in our life and when we think about , you know , my dad , your dad , etc .

You know we could say that maybe they came to a point in their life where they didn't have that deep enough why they would allow them to dig themselves out of that hole . And that's why for me , like I'm so bullish you know to use a crypto term on . You know helping people find their why and connecting with people who have found their why , like yourself .

You know , and you know to talk about these medicines for a second and their utility . You know it's pretty funny how the world today is getting a very clinical type approach to psilocybin , mdma , etc . But , like you were saying , you know , even when I first got into these medicines back in , you know what was that ? 2015 , 2014 , right around there .

You know cannabis I got into , obviously before that . But any other medicine , you know I had never , you know , tried or gotten into . I'd heard a lot about him , I was curious about him , but I was too scared to try him .

But when I first tried mdma , you know , even back then it was only got 10 years ago but it really wasn't getting the accolades it was today . It was kind of like oh , you're doing ecstasy , you're going to , you know , like there's not really any like utility here other than you're going to feel awesome for a few hours .

And these days it's pretty funny how they're clinicalizing a lot of it and I'm not fully against that .

I think it will make them available to certain people who maybe are older and wouldn't trust someone like a me , for instance , coming up with them and saying , for instance , coming up with them and saying hey , you should , you know , maybe look into psychedelics , see if that , you know , resonates , they might look at me and be like I just don't vibe with your

vibe . But if they see a guy or girl in a white lab coat as a doctor who's telling them like , yeah , these actually have utility , you know , maybe that helps them , so I'm not against it fully .

But what we also know is that these medicines not San Pedro , you know , these have been done traditionally in the jungle or in nature or in a maloca or something of that nature for thousands upon thousands of years .

And I think that there is a potential challenge Like I can't imagine doing a mushroom dose in a hospital setting , like that feels like I might as well just do acid and go to a funeral you know what I mean Like that's like the most depressing place to do it .

But you know , at the end of the day , if it gets some people to , you know , try them out , that otherwise wouldn't all the better . But I'm curious for you , like you know , as you've gotten into this journey for yourself and you've kind of seen the mainstream hit psychedelics and everything , what are your thoughts on ?

You know kind of where the mainstream is taking psychedelics these days . Are you , let's say , in support of it ? Are you partially in support of it ? What would you like to see happen that maybe is not happening ? What are your thoughts that come to heart or mind when I ask ?

The feeling is just totally different . You know , when you're having the live singing and the drumming and the rattles and that you know the people , the guardians holding space , it has a different feel than if you're like sitting in a dentist chair somewhere with a drip . You know , it's just , it just feels differently .

And so , whereas that might be a great start , like if you somebody that I've had so many people that are like , well , that seems like doing drugs , you know , whereas if I'm in a medical office , I feel safe , I feel . And then you know , a lot of people start with ketamine , right , and they , that helps them , it interrupts the patterns .

It's great for just kind of that first level and for some people that's enough right and they're good . But if someone has a lot of PTSD , you know , a deep depression . There can be magic in the ceremony .

I really and truly believe in that , so I think there's a place for all of it , but I also really truly believe in the power of just being deep in ceremony with people that are caring about you .

Like you know , it's pretty funny Nature is extremely intelligent , right . So we think about everything that goes into a clinical setting . First of all , you have to have someone there trained or that has certain accolades to be able to hold the container . We'll use ceremonial terms for it , but you know , essentially , watch out for them .

You have to then get the medicine .

You have to then usually have really expensive machines and all these things , right , it's a lot that goes into that versus the fact that , for anyone who's taken a five gram mushroom dose and laid in the grass , or taken a couple tabs of acid and gone on an adventure in the woods , you realize that nature is incredibly intelligent and it has everything you need

baked into it to experience these medicines in a powerful way . And why wouldn't it be that way , right ? Like you know , I think it's naive to think that we can try to outsmart nature or make it better . You know , I think that the only argument I have for clinical setting is just the fact of what we already talked about .

Maybe some people are still deep in programming around like , well , if it's just on the street and I do with my friends it's drugs , but if I do it here , it's a medicine , right , and that's something that a lot of people are still going through . You know , and I think you know , as you know , my generation , generation after me , gets older .

I think we'll start to see less and less of you know people that have that certain type of programming around quote unquote , drugs . You know , because technically , everything is a drug . You know , mcdonald's talk about , talk about drugs that are bad and not even fun . You know , you know , it's really funny . I had a .

I had a guy that I was talking to down in Austin when we did breathe with cannabis , live down there , and we were talking about food and we know we're all eating some healthy food and we were talking about how it's just easy at this point to eat healthy food and he was like , yeah , you know it's , it's pretty funny .

You know , anyone who's addicted to food just hasn't done enough drugs . You know and it was a joke obviously , but you know it is funny . It's like if you're going to , you know want to have fun , there are much better ways than you know getting your drugs through food and God knows what else . Right , but you know , I'm curious for you .

You know a lot of the questions I get from listeners on the show are you know , which medicine should I take ? Right , like what's the best medicine for XYZ type scenario . And knowing is how you have experience , you know , with a few different medicines . I mean quite a few actually . You know why don't we start with , let's say , psilocybin , mdma and ketamine ?

I think those are probably the top three that most people are aware of . We're going to get into 5-MeO after that , because I know you have a lot of experience with that .

But from psilocybin to MDMA , to ketamine , in your experience and you can gladly talk about clients if you'd like to , but in your experience where does each of those medicines really come in handy for your own evolution and where have you maybe seen it help your clients , like what would be a situation in which you'd go oh , right now , I think this would really

be a good psilocybin experience versus an MDMA experience versus a ketamine experience .

So what happens is a lot of people come to me after ketamine so they've had kind of that first layer . Not everybody , but I have a good portion of people that you know their anxiety is so deep , they just need relief , they need something , and so they'll seek something out and they'll be like oh well , ketamine , I can go to this .

I don't have to , you know , figure out who's underground , who's , you know above ground , who's , whatever they can just they can just get help , and so that's a great first course . And I know a lot of people keep revisiting . They have a relationship with ketamine and that's wonderful . For a lot of other people they're more of the .

I want to stick with nature . It feels better to me if it's natural , you know . If it's not a synthetic , I feel like I'm communing with something greater than myself , with something greater than myself , and so psilocybin is my number one first round option because it is such a beautiful experience . You can go a little lighter , you can go deeper .

You know , if someone's first time low and slow , right , we don't want to blast someone off to the universe , you know , we just kind of want them to ease into a relationship with the medicine and feel into what it feels like to take time for themselves , to be in nature , right , where , where we do our ceremonies , it's deep in nature and we're encouraging people

to just quiet . You know they're not surrounded by screens , they're not with their phones , they're . You know they're in a quiet , beautiful space with singing , with , you know , all the sound healing instruments , and there's so much healing that comes just from that , with the breathing , you know , just connecting with the breath , which you do so beautifully .

You know it's . These are the powerful things that are so simple , right ? We overthink like we don't have to do all the things . We don't necessarily have to go to the jungle right To get deep healing . We can start with these wonderful medicines that have always been there and are readily available for us . We can grow our own at any point .

You know , that's really cool .

You know , ally , that always works out for me and I don't mean to say always works out to be read as always positive , always easy , always fun . You know that medicine will check me so hard .

You know , cannabis is almost like a fun coach for me that can show me things , but it does it with a soft hand , you know , and sometimes it can be a little bit more heavy of a hand , you know , say , if I get in an argument with Rachel and I think I'm totally right , and then I can echo cannabis and I'm like , ah , shit , you know , again it just

showed me like , look over here , you still think you're right , you know , and again it might do it with a light hand , but it might be hard for me to actually have the courage to be like , okay , yep , I was wrong there , I didn't see the full picture of what was going on .

But with psilocybin , on the other hand , what's great about it , you know , as opposed to like LSD , for instance , because those two are compared a lot . They're not really similar at all , but they are compared a lot . The thing with acid is you don't really know what you're going to get .

Like you're going to have a little white tab of paper or a vial of liquid and good luck . You know , like it could be one dose , it could be 10 . You really have no idea , you know . And again , like if you have a trusted source , you know you should be able to kind of depend on it .

But you know , with LSD I mean , I've had probably no joke and I'm part Virgo . So , like you know , I'm very structured and I always make sure I'm testing what I get and everything .

But I probably had 10 experiences with LSD where I thought it was one dose , it was over at least five doses and it just , you know , became an ordeal , know , and I got through it , you know right , maybe with a little bruises , but I got through it .

But with psilocybin it's really cool because you know , except for strains like pe and strains of that nature , you know if you eat 0.5 it's not going to feel like 85 grams , you know . So it's pretty dependable over time , especially if you're working with strains like golden teachers or b plus or any of those types of varieties .

So it's really cool in that way . And you know , for me , about once a year I know I need a cleanse of sorts . Right , I can just feel like I'm getting muddy . You know , I keep my life going very fast and that's by design . Like I fucking love what I do . So like , yeah , I'll rip three podcasts in a day , yeah , I'll work weekends .

Like , yeah , I'll do these things because it doesn't feel like work to me , but also , I know doing that does speed me up quite a bit , you know . And we live in a very fast world too .

So sometimes I just get this intuitive hit of like I feel like I'm forgetting some things right now , but I can't really put my finger on what I'm forgetting because I'm on the hamster wheel , you know . And so every once in a while , usually around February every year , we usually do it for Valentine's day , Rach and I .

We usually do it for Valentine's Day , rach and I , we'll do a 10 gram mushroom tea , and I'll just remember I'll completely slow down because for anyone who hasn't done that before , for me anyway , what five grams does is it makes you a wiggly worm for a while on the bed just like , oh my God , this feels so crazy .

And then eventually you just get to this still point which is like looking at a crystal , still pond , and you just exist there for like three hours . And from that place I can then make a plan of like , okay , do I still like where I'm going ? Do I like you know the speed I'm going at ? Do I need to make any adjustments here ?

You know , are the things that I'm connecting with , say , coffee or anything like that ? Is that in balance right now ? And that then sets up the stage for the next year's goals . You know of how I usually do it . So I've really found psilocybin to be amazing .

In that way I'm curious , like for your own personal , you know journey and you know medicine use and whatnot . Do you find psilocybin works in a similar ?

We know we're going to unplug and we're going to do our own thing .

And it's so funny you mentioned this you mentioned like having a fight with Rachel because what , the last time we journeyed it was right before our anniversary and I was , I was just like I had a part that was building resentment and it was just kind of like I can't wait to have this journey because he's going to be so sorry Once he sees what he's been

doing , he's going to say sorry to me and he's going to do all this stuff and we drop in and we're , you know , I'm like just kind of cruising along , you know , expecting the bliss , expecting , you know , all the good vibes , and all of a sudden the teacher came in and was like oh honey , it's not him .

And I was like I'm so sorry , I'm so sorry and I just like , was , you know , seeing my part in all of the miscommunication and that , you know , just kind of missing each other because things had gotten sped up too fast , you know . And so taking that time to slow down and allowing the lessons to come is , I mean , where would we be without that ?

You know , I would still be in my little talk with myself about how right I am , you know , and it's like so beautiful to be humble , it's so beautiful to to really see , you know , my part in things and to be able to then change .

So , uh , yeah , I definitely love , um , at least twice a year we do the combo psilocybin with MDMA , which I just love with a partner , if you have a partner .

I feel like I can think a little more , like you know , just create and and problem solve and and even if I can't like my last , my last experience was more of a lesson as well , but it kind of opened the door . So afterwards I was like on fire , like ideas , idea , idea , you know , and so it definitely helps me be a better provider .

It helps me be just more heart centered with my family , with my kids , you know , and so with the people that I get to work with , people like you , you know , it's like how I show up in the world really matters to me , so taking that time is crucial .

But , like you know , if you look at whatever you want to call it , the world that we live in , whether or not you believe it's the way it should be , you know or not , whatever you know , we live in a very unnatural type setting based on what human beings have been living in for potentially hundreds of 1000s of years , depending on what you know , history and

what science you kind of look at in terms of , like human origins . But you know , again , it hasn't been that long , probably about 100 years or so , not even that we've been existing in this like workforce having to go to a place . Right , maybe the Industrial Revolution , you know , is probably when that started , right around then , so right around 100 years now .

But you know , this kind of idea of having to go , go , go is not the way that things have always been and I think a lot of us , deep down , you know , I knew as a kid that wasn't how I wanted to live my life .

But what are you supposed to do as one person entering an entire fucking world of people that are convinced that's the way the world's supposed to be ? What ends up happening , or at least to me anyways ?

You just kind of fall into it in your own way , and I'd always try to find ways to get out of it a little bit , find side hustles and things that I could get some more of my time back . But I think for a lot of us that find psychedelics , you know , it's almost like you know when a plane lands right , it doesn't just slow down right away .

There's like levels to it right , when you'll you'll get the immediate hit down and then it will like have another level of slow and then another level of slow Right , and you might not even notice it .

Like , when you land and you feel the brakes go on , you might think , oh , that amount of brakes is going to slow us down all the way , and so you don't know there's another level to slow down . Then all of a sudden you're like , whoa , there's another level .

Whoa , there's another level right , and so I feel like a lot of us are going through that right now where , for me , my goal is to not have to be go go going my entire life . Luckily , I'm very fortunate . I love what I do , so the go go go really doesn't matter that much . It is fun for me , it's a good dopamine hit .

But at the same time , I am also continually working and integrating a slower lifestyle into my frame of being , and last year my mushroom trip that I did last year really just like set it in stone for me . It was like I don't like the life that I'm creating right now in terms of business and whatever .

And I realized another level of that pattern in me that wasn't even really mine . It's ancestral or whatever , that believed that you know work had to be hard , you know I had to go fast and furious , it had to be warrior mode constantly and that wasn't something that you know again , anyone told me or whatever . It was something that I believed .

So , naturally , when I was looking at business mentors and people like that , I would seek out people who would be like , yeah , you got to get on a lot of podcasts , you got to make content constantly and all these things , because that met me where I was at . But once I saw behind that veil I was like , okay , no more , I'm going to start a new pattern .

And now I'm about 10 months into it , coming up on 11 . It was last December that I had this kind of idea and my life looks a lot different . And I know there's a whole other level waiting , you know , and , that being said , there's always more levels . You know , the more you dig , the more you'll find , you know .

But at the end of the day , you know , I think that having those times , you know those rituals throughout the year , just like we've had for potentially hundreds of thousands of years , as human beings right , we have these certain rituals every year , and I think a lot of us have lost that ritual aspect of life , you know .

I think that's why a lot of us humans are also seeking out things that can make up for the lack of rituals that we're feeling in our day to day life . You know it's like , yeah , we might have Christmas and whatever , but it's like you got to go buy a bunch of gifts and hang out with people you don't really like , like it's not really rituals that .

Do you feel that way too ? I'm curious .

And what was so unique about my , my last experience was this particular indigenous group incorporate singing and dancing in the ceremony , which was like beyond comprehension to me . Like how on earth can you possibly get up when you're deep in this medicine ? Like it just seemed unfathomable . And it was a sitting ceremony as well .

So , like you know , in my world you're masked up , you're on a , you're on a mat , you're down for the count . You know it's like you're internal , and this was all just blended .

It's internal , it's external , it's a celebration , it's the sorrow , and even that was such it's the sorrow and even that was such an eye-opener for me to realize that really that's also what we did was we celebrated together , we suffered together . No one was on an island suffering alone , and to me I had this epiphany of how beautiful that is .

It's not great to hear tons of people throwing up at one time , but , you know , when you're in this together , you're like we're all going through this , like I'm not alone . I'm not the only person here that has problems , and that person's problems sound a lot worse . You know what I mean .

It's like I'm doing okay , and then just being walked home with the music and the drums and it . It was one of those moments that really brought home how beautiful it is to be in a group setting in medicine , because it can be just as profound .

It has its place , as a quiet journey does too , and so I feel like all of these lessons are exactly what we need when we need them . When we're going too hard , the medicine comes in and goes hey , slow down , it's okay . And when we're not pulling our weight , it also does the same thing Maybe you should step it up .

And so it's all exactly what we need at the time , and I really appreciate that .

And you know like that's what I've always found with any different type of medicine that I've tried , the only exception where it's not that I didn't get what I needed necessarily , but it was just so big of an experience that I came out of it being like well , how do I make sense of that which was 5MEO DMT , and I know that you work with 5 quite often .

So you know I also get hit up by a lot of people who listen to the show that are curious about DMT , and you know I always say to them like hey , just be aware , you know it's a lot stronger than if you're used to mushrooms or something like that .

You know , the thing with me that you know doesn't freak me out , I would say , but kind of gives me a little bit of uneasiness about 5 . And NN is a little bit different . I mean , I've done that a couple of times on my own , but I've only had a true like full-on melt , like you turn into a puddle of goo type experience from 5MEO .

So basically the quickness of that experience is the part that gets me every time , because usually with mushrooms or whatever , even if you eat a lot of them , there's like levels like you'll start feeling it . Then you kind of stabilize and you feel stabilized .

It's kind of like a slow ladder , whereas five of me I was like the fastest rocket ship you could ever go on . You know you start hitting it and before you know you're vibrating and you're just like a puddle of goo . So I'm curious for you .

You know and I'd love to hear about you know some of the things you mix in with these modalities , because for everyone listening , shelly isn't just a medicine worker . She also involves integrated family systems , sound healing and other components to these journeys and I've been fascinated .

I'm really excited to sit with you and do the five and and parts work on , but I know for that you're not usually blasting people off . But in your experience what have you found the utility to be for 5-MeO ?

Have there been any big lessons 5-MeO has taught you and what have you seen working with clients and maybe a more microdosing type aspect , because I think a lot of people aren't aware that you can microdose things like 5-MeO and then , as a third part of this question , like what would kind of be the interplay between things like five and then IFS and parts work

and things like that .

I know a lot of veteran groups will use it , you know , for someone that's in deep agony and suicidal it'll interrupt the pattern because it's just jolting you out . I think for someone that's not in that state it's better to kind of be more experienced than some of the other compounds before seeking that out , and it can be a really beautiful experience .

For many people have this blissful , you know , unity with creator and you know , feel it removes a fear of death and it kind of gets you really to that non dual state very quickly , but it's not really necessary all the time , you know .

So , I think , a fear of death and it kind of gets you really to that non-dual state very quickly , but it's not really necessary all the time , you know . So I think a lot of people are kind of chasing it sometimes where it's like , you know , let's slow it down , kind of .

What we were just saying is also slow it down in the medicine , you know , and so what I have found to be really really therapeutic is coupling a very low dose of five with IFS internal family systems and helping people get in touch with the parts that are actually causing some of their need for healing .

Right , we have different protector parts that are just have good motives . Right , they want to keep us safe , they want to keep us in a place where we're not going to get hurt anymore .

So they're acting on our behalf but don't realize that in so doing we're not living our best life , and so we need to go and do some of these light medicine experiences so we can consciously find these parts and work with them and talk to them .

And because a lot of times what I found is IFS is super helpful for many people right out of the gate , and very often I'm only doing IFS in my integration sessions with people , but some people can't get there as deeply without the medicine and so just a little light dose and where you're working with the person , you're talking and interacting , they have full

agency to know if they want to go a little deeper , if they want to back out a little bit , and it becomes this beautiful dance of working with medicine , with parts , and really seeing deeply some of these memories that people might have suppressed since childhood . It also helps kind of dig into those deeper spots that we can't always remember .

So I'm a big fan of low dose . Five , now , that's different for microdosing . I wouldn't recommend five for microdosing as it as it stands , you know , like where it's like a you know one day on , three days off kind of thing , not a protocol .

It's a low dose in a session and that's really where I see beautiful work being done and it's magical to see someone have this and just you know , a couple hour session , have these breakthroughs that didn't come from Ibogaine , didn't come from ayahuasca , didn't come from psilocybin .

It came from this like two hour session of just someone you know holding space , listening , asking the right questions and just being there to witness , you know , their healing . It's so beautiful listening , asking the right questions and just being there to witness you know their healing . It's so beautiful .

I don't know if you've ever heard of I told you about this , but db cooper for everyone listening , have you heard of db cooper ? shelly that like it's like a folk tale , right .

So basically when I was a kid I used to love this movie called without a paddle , and it stars matthew lillard and um seth something or whatever , and it's basically about these four friends who grew up together . They did everything together and they always wanted to find DB Cooper's lost treasure .

Db Cooper was this guy who basically in the early 70s , you know , he got on an airplane and he passed a note to the stewardess letting her know that he had a bomb on board and that he was going to blow up the plane unless he got $250,000 .

So basically she goes to the pilot and she's like uh-oh , we got this guy on board who's making a fuss over here . And basically he allows them to land , let all the passengers off . So only the stewardess and the pilots stayed on the plane and the FBI actually came and delivered the 250 grand in cash .

And then the plane took off again and he jumped out somewhere like open to the hatch and just jumped out somewhere over Oregon like 10,000 feet Some crazy shit , right , never to be heard from again .

They found a couple of hundred dollar bills washed up on a shore that matched the serial numbers , but like literally modern mystery and so he's actually going on Rogan soon to tell the whole story . So I won't get into all the juicy bits here , but that's all I had ever known about with this movie , right ? I watched it hundreds of times .

I loved this movie . I was always fascinated with DB Cooper and his treasure and I remember as a kid being like man I'd love to find that treasure and figure out what happened to him .

Well , imagine my surprise when I'm about to get blasted off on 5MEO DMT and me and this guy are talking and my buddy , mark , is like , hey , did you tell him who your dad was ? And he's like , oh , you ever heard of TV Cooper ? And I'm like , yeah , tv Cooper . I'm like , yeah , oh , my God . Like how do you know about that ?

Not many people know about it . He's like , well , he was my dad . And I'm like all right . So that was like one of those moments , shelley , where my 13 year old self and my 30 year old self , both high fived , you know . It was like all right , you know , this is where I parked my car , you know . But those two experiences were really powerful .

When it happened , he was working with this woman who had this amazing crystal sound bowl and so as soon as I , they had this pen system . It was like six different pens . So they had pen one , two , three , four , five and six . And what you would do is you'd take a five-second pull on pen one .

You'd feel like nothing , and then after like a minute , he'd be like do you want to do another hit ? And you'd say yes , and then you'd do a 10-second pull on pen one , do a five second pull on pen two , then a 10 second pull , then go up to pen three . And that's how you did it . So you could kind of like tiptoe your way in and say at what point ?

Like nah , I'm good . So basically , I went to pen four and did a 10 second hit . That was the only pens he had at that ceremony and it was a full on whiteout experience , you know , like very intense .

And as soon as I started to turn into a puddle of goo , she put the entire sound bowl on my chest and started singing it and I all I remember is coming out of that being like thank god that she had that sound bowl there .

You know it doesn't make any sense to me like logically when I say it , but I just know that that sound was what took me to wherever I was going and also what led me back , and I have no idea I would have got back without that .

But you know it , it was interesting because the first time I had ever met this guy he had brought like a pen number two to a get together we were at and we had heard whispers that this guy , bob , was going to show up . Bob is his mentor . He actually lives out in San Diego . He works with veterans .

And I already been on LSD for about I don't know seven hours at that point . So he was like , do you want to try it ? And I was like I don't know if I'm ready to blast off . He's like no , my goodness , if I had one of these pens , I'd probably do this once a week and just meditate , because it gets you right there .

It's really amazing stuff , you know . But I realized , you know , 5-meo is that thing that a lot of people are wanting to get into and they haven't really done it yet or they're curious about it . So I'd love to have a new one . Because I was like I know what . I'm going to ask you right off the bat about that .

It's just a very , very easy experience to go through in the sense of you know access , you know you're not , you're not gone for days and such you know , you know what are they ?

He was a partner there and he called it the businessman's trip Because he's like dude , I can get home from work , go down to the basement , blast off and be back at dinner in 15 minutes . And I'm like you , my friend , are a different breed of human .

I don't know how you're doing that , but that's apparently why a lot of people like it , you know , and it is practical in that sense . You know , that's what I love about cannabis too . You know , for a lot of people that have a lot of obligations and a fast moving life , they don't need people listen to the show to get tips right of like .

How they can , you know , have the best experiences possible . You know , in your experience you know working with hundreds of people and also utilizing these medicines in your own journey what are some of the most important things you found to be able to have a safe experience ?

I was going to say positive , but at the same time , experiences can be challenging and still positive . So I guess , whoever was listening , if you want to think about it that way , we'd say positive , but overall a safe experience , one that someone's going to come out being able to see something happening for them rather than to them .

What are some of the first things that come to your mind or heart in terms of things that someone could walk away from this episode with and go okay , I'm going to put those things into practice . If I use discernment and know psychedelics are good for me , I'm going to put these into practice to have higher level experiences .

I mean , everyone knew about psychedelics , right , but he had a friend that you know had really helped with psychedelics but hadn't been trained as a facilitator . But she was like , hey , come on over and we'll , we'll drop some LSD . And he had had a lot of anxiety , a lot of trouble , and so he decided he was , you know , okay , I'll go over there .

He and his wife went over and they , they had this experience and her intention was really good to share some of the healing that she had received from these medicines . But then you know the way she did this for this person's first time experience , you know , with just regular music playing and just sitting there talking .

I mean there was no sense of taking the time away as a ceremony for this person to really dive deep into what he needed to for his , his experience , and it kind of actually dysregulated him and so it kind of gave him a bad taste of like this didn't really help as a matter of fact , I kind of felt really anxious from it , because when there isn't a

guardian in place or a guide you have , you know , talk about IFS practitioners you will have parts that show up that have to stand guard , so you're not actually dropping all the way in because you have parts that are activated like .

This isn't safe , this doesn't feel good , and so what I would say is , for people that are non-experienced , don't just go to a friend's house . If you can avoid it , you know like it can . There are probably wonderful people that know how to hold space as friends and it's great .

But I would say , be careful , because it can actually dysregulate you and make you feel kind of more anxious because it didn't , you couldn't fully sink in . So I would say , really explore , you know , your first few times being in ceremony with an experienced facilitator and experience guide , where you know you can fully drop in .

You'll be safe , you'll be , you know you'll be held , and then you can , you know , weave fully . Drop in , you'll be safe , you'll be , you know you'll be held , and then you can , you know , weave in some of these other experiences which can be really fun and awesome when you're with your friends and and journeying .

But , um , I think for the first time , first few times , it's just good to know you're held in the space and then explore from there .

I remember I did a mushroom trip with three of my friends and two of the friends I didn't know that well . I knew them from the club scene and whatnot . You know we'd go out and party a lot and so we ate you know a few grams of mushrooms together .

And I remember you know this one individual him and his girlfriend started going through something , you know , when we were all hanging out and I could tell they didn't you through something . You know , when we were all hanging out and I could tell they didn't , you know , feel comfortable enough .

Nor did we really feel comfortable enough at that time to be able to support them in that way . I had no idea about this kind of stuff . We were just doing it for quote unquote fun , right .

But I ended up getting an Uber and just going home and I talked to him later on and he was like , yeah , a lot of anxiety popped up and because up until that point , psychedelics were just fun for me , you know , we would take them and put on spongle or some kind of kaleidoscope and we really had no idea what we were messing with you know , like we'd have

these wild experiences where sometimes we would just giggle at movies for hours and then sometimes we would just be out of our body for hours and all come back at the same time , look at each other like we were strangers , and then go back into the experience and then afterwards just be like what the hell was that ? that just happened , right .

So , like you know again , like I imagine , what people can take from this , from what you're saying , what I'm saying is the idea of you know , we've done a lot of trial by fire , right , and you know I think a lot of the reason that we're in the roles we're in now is to make sure that no one has to make the same potential mistakes I'm careful to use

that term , but you know same errors that we made because again , we came out of it Okay , but there are real concerns to have when connecting with these medicines , you know . You know if you're not in a good frame of mind , if you don't have the right setting , you know things like that .

It's not that you know it's it's going to be objectively a bad experience because there is no such thing as a bad experience just overall but the amount of challenge that you might face will go up exponentially depending on what you're going through . And so just be aware of that , you know .

Be aware that you know if you feel really good , great , but you could also have a lot of stuff brought up that doesn't feel that good . And if you feel really damaged , great , but also you could feel really good in that experience . So it's it's ultimately discernment that's going to get you there . But I'm curious for you , shelly .

I love asking this on episodes , like you know , because these experiences , like I think a lot of people , especially people , listen to this show , they're they're tiptoeing in . You know , I mean , I have a lot of seasoned users too , but but you know , like a lot of people are not really sure what is possible within a psychedelic experience .

So I love asking my guests that come on , like is there one story that sticks out to you or one experience that sticks out to you personally that you could share with the listeners with regards to something magical , something synchronistic that doesn't even make logical sense , something that happened that really shifted your whole reality ?

Is there one experience that maybe sticks out to you ?

Um , you know , as I said , my husband and I do an LSD experience every , uh , january 1st and it's kind of meant as a reset . It's meant to be a moment of creativity , of of just joining together and bliss and planning and , and you know , figuring out like what , what's next , you know how can we best help other people .

And so this particular experience I wanted to go a little deeper . So I , I I took higher than a normal dose because I really wanted to be in this experience . And so , as I thought I was going to go into this beautiful , blissful experience , it was life , school , and I was like , oh , here we go .

And what the medicine ended up showing me was it actually felt very much like an ayahuasca experience , because the medicine started showing me all the little ways that I make excuses and how it kind of showed me in this sludge .

That was like going through my body , like every time you tell a little lie or every time you make an excuse , like more of the sludge builds up until all of a sudden you're just stuck and it was showing me all the ways that I had been doing that and it's like , it's so interesting because you know , especially when you're in this work and you think , oh ,

I'm always working on myself , I'm always evaluating , I'm always trying to be better , and even then it was like , oh my God , it was just being shown the reality of some of the areas where I made excuses .

And it was really beautiful , you know , to be taken to task and to be open to that and to see it was really and truly life-changing for me , because it brought me back to my knees of like you know what ? There's no , like I've got this . You know there's no one walking around . Like I'm enlightened , that's it . I'm good , you know .

It's like we're all just walking each other home , and so it's so wonderful as a provider to realize that you know I'm just here walking next to you . You know I'm in no way ahead of anybody , or better , or enlightened .

You know I'm just here trying to figure it out , like you are , and so that's really one of the most beautiful experiences I had in medicine .

So whenever she says anything , that little voice is like , well , maybe she's just lying or whatever , or just upset , can't even come in . And so , with her and these medicines combined , combined , that has been exponentially amazing for me , and I imagine your husband helps you out in that way too .

You know that's one of the best things about connecting with psychedelics and partnership is that you know when you're both willing to lose your leave , some reality for a while and open up to the grandiose of the entire reality we live in , and also the reality that we don't currently live in but we are part of , aka being closer to god .

You know , I think that kind of starts a psychedelic container , even without the medicine , where , like you know , you're able to see each other more vulnerably . And I think that's the whole point of a relationship anyway , right to be able to like a committed partnership .

And why it's so hard to hold out and to stay in one for so long is because the longer you stay in one , the more courageous you're going to have to be to meet your own you know shortcomings , your own distortions , things like that , because it becomes very easy for the other person to see where you get stuck , you know .

And so , yeah , for anyone listening , I highly recommend , if you use discernment and if these medicines feel proper and right for you in this situation and you have a partner that's down for it you know , of course , if you're new to it , see , you got a facilitator , someone like Shelly , you know , to help you through it .

But at the same time it can be one of those powerful things ever because , you know , I've always heard a statistic too on . You know partners that go through a challenging experience together . You know they kind of like deepen their bond in a way .

You know , like when my dad passed away , the person I was with at that time , like I really got bonded to her because , you know again , she supported me through that . You know evolution of my life and I think psychedelics are a way you can consciously choose to create that experience .

You know , to create an experience where it deepens that bond and shows you more of who you really are , and so it's so beautiful and , shelly , it's been amazing . I can't believe we've already gone an hour . This is incredible . I got to have you back on for a part two .

Hopefully we can do it in person part two , but I know that you're coming out with an amazing psychedelic facilitator training .

So for anyone listening who's been feeling FOMO when Shelly and I have been talking , you can take advantage of all the amazing skills that Shelly has developed over a decade and working with these medicines intimately , and all of her trainings and everything like that .

I'd love if you could share with people where they can find you and then where they can find out more about the psychedelic facilitator training . I know you just came up with an amazing sound healing course as well , so tell the people where I can send them to connect with you and really tap into all the magic that is Shelly DeMarco .

But , yeah , so we have an amazing couples experience that people love . But , yeah , I'm very excited to share what we've done . And what I love about our focus is you're working . I'm not the only teacher .

You have other facilitators , very seasoned , on-the-ground facilitators , that you get to mentor with , and so what I love about it , it's not just textbook learning , you're actually . We have hands-on workshops . You're actually walking with the path with other people that are in this world , and it's really beautiful .

So we love working with people and helping people on their path as well . So thanks so much for letting me come on and share a little bit of what I do .

You know , guys , for anyone listening , one of the challenges I see in the psychedelic space and I imagine this comes from a very good place of intention , but it is definitely a challenge is the people that think they can go to a music festival and now teach other people how to utilize psychedelics .

The reason that I wanted to have Shelly on so bad , along with her just being a dear friend and being someone that I just really vibe with in the space , is that she's someone who is extremely experienced . She's done all the heavy training .

She's done a lot of things other than psychedelics , like integrated family systems , sound healing , all of these things to be able to now put her over a decade of experience into this program and this is not something new for her . She's been doing this through retreats and everything else for a long time .

But the thing is , you know , some people can't , you know , travel out to a retreat . They have other obligations , and so this is her opportunity to now take it virtual right and be able to support people virtually . And you know again , she has so many different things . You know so many different courses , so many different retreats .

She does Definitely check out everything she's doing . She is absolutely amazing and I feel very honored and grateful to have her in my life , you know , to be able to come on the show , share with people and just charge the absolute hell out of my battery . I love you , shelly , you're so amazing . And I got one last question for you .

I got one last question for you that I ask everyone who comes in the show and I'd love to ask you it . You up for it ?

But I would just say you have to have an openness and a willingness to learn , I think , to really get the most out of these medicines . So I would just take a look and just really spend some time internally evaluating that before deciding .

Make sure to check out the show notes for all the links that Shelly mentioned and make sure to just continue following her . She's coming up with more stuff almost every single week . It's amazing just how dedicated she is to being able to provide life-changing experiences for her clients , with or without psychedelics .

So even if you're someone like she was mentioning , who maybe is a little scared right now , maybe a little hesitant , reach out to her . Get some IFS done , get some sound healing done , maybe some breath work , some other things that can open up similar states without having to change your consciousness in the way that psychedelics do .

So , wherever you guys are in the world , I hope you're having the best day ever and , as always , may the source be with you . Peace for now .