Ep. 186: Rejoining The Polarities Of The Savage & The Saint Within Men (feat. Michael Holt)

For us men , one of the challenges we face is how to find balance between the polarities of the savage and the saint within us . In order to express as a truly healthy man , we require both of these polarities to be expressed within our experience of life .

That being said , in the modern day world , masculine energy is looked at by many to be quote-unquote toxic , when , in reality , what the world calls toxic is not true masculinity whatsoever , but is rather an immature version of it touted as the quote-unquote real deal . So , with all that said , where does that leave us men ?

In my opinion , it leaves us in a confused place in which we require true masculine leaders to emerge and remind the men and the world at large what true , healthy masculine expression looks and feels like . And this is exactly why I am so excited for this week's podcast guest .

He is the founder of the Savage and Saint Collective , whereby he mentors men on how to tap into the wholeness of these two polarities in order to add more vitality , more excellence and more freedom to their lives .

This episode is sure to open up some new perspectives for you and allow you to walk away with some real-world , actionable steps we can each take , regardless of our gender , to actualize the goal of bringing back true masculinity to the world in a powerful way . So please help me in welcoming my brother , michael Holt , to the show .

Michael Holt , my man dude , it has been a blast getting to network and get to know you over the last couple of weeks .

You know it was funny connecting with you , like I said in the intro , because I heard you years ago on Paul Cech's podcast and I remember like really enjoying the podcast you did and also thinking like man dude , this guy is like Buddha reincarnated , like the amount of calm you have in you , bro , is amazing . What's your sign right off the bat ?

What's your astrological sign ? I'm a Libra . Ah Libra Almost a .

So now I'll have to go back and figure out what else in your chart is leading to that man .

But regardless , man , I'm super excited to have you on , brother , and you know where I like to start every episode , and I know that we're going to get into some really juicy stuff here about integration and how to access psychedelic states even without accessing through psychedelic medicines .

But before we get into that , I want to ask you , like how you first got interested in the realm of psychedelics and I don't just mean the medicines here , I mean living a life that is different than most people , because to me , life is the psychedelic , and the people that are kind of doing things differently are typically the people that I would call more

psychedelic lovers , even if they're not connecting with psychedelics necessarily . So how did you first get interested in living this different type of life ? You know being open to psychedelic medicines from time to time in your life . How did that all transpire ?

And , you know , really like deep existential questions of what is reality , what am I , what is the self , what is the world , what am I , what is the self , what is the world ? Are we different ?

Like the big questions , like what is really going on here , and so , yeah , a combination of those two , you know , emotional pain and an inability to manage myself skillfully , coupled with , you know , a real , real , authentic desire to know the truth , motivated me to roll the dice with you know , my consciousness and explore Dude , I love that man , and not on

purpose but by accident .

Right , like growing up and being in the modern day world whether you want to call it the matrix or whatever you want to call it and just watching everyone go to nine , to fives and do the safe bet in school , and it never resonated with me .

But the challenge with me was that I didn't have a lot of people around me that were doing anything different , so I didn't have any context that there was differentiality in life .

And when I found cannabis first and then psychedelics later on , that was the first time where I was like Yep , I knew there was always more to this and I think for a lot of us it's very validating , because I don't know if your situation was similar .

But let me just ask you like did you have a lot of people growing up around you that were doing things differently , or were you more like me , had a lot of examples of people kind of just taking the normal paved path , not really questioning things ? Like which one of those do you fall more onto ?

So , no , I didn't really have a lot of models of individuals who were like really living their own life . It was everybody was kind of , I mean and I'm not talking down or badly about where I come from but everyone just seemed to be content to maintain , you know , the normal sea of modern culture . Yeah , and I was like you . I was like you .

Not only did I , it's kind of like there's a rebellious nature in me that was much more pronounced when I was a younger man . It got me in a lot of trouble , so it made it hard for me to cram myself into like a square peg , into a round hole .

But on top of that , it was difficult for me to consistently show up to anything because my emotional ups and downs were very hard to . You know , it was hard for me to find stability .

But you know , I had to do a lot of uh planning to get away with a lot of stuff that I was doing back then and you know , I find that to be very common , especially in men , right , like , I think a lot of us have rebellious spirits and , you know , kind of get drawn away from people that are just walking the normal path .

Again , no judgment , but just , you know , not my flavor of ice cream type thing , right , we want something different for ourselves and you know , I find that you know people that have an upbringing like that , where they're starting to realize that rebellious , they're trying different things , they're doing these types of things that are very different from the norm ,

they end up living some really cool lives , as long as they can balance each other out and things like that . And you know , my question for you is , you know , to kind of jump forward a little bit . How did psychedelics or did they continue to shape who you were becoming in your later years ?

Right , I know we talked on our networking call about how these days very similar to me you're not hitting these buttons very often because you don't need to anymore .

But how did that kind of transition go from you know doing a lot when you were younger into now being much more balanced , much more reverent , much more respectful and everything with yourself , and also with the medicine as well ?

I've had the good fortune to really sit at the feet of some real deal teachers who frame the practice as the cultivation of specific skills that are meant to bring about a direct experience of liberation from the self experience , to start to really be able to abide in a state of uninterrupted awareness that becomes very psychedelic .

I mean , reality is the real psychedelic , it's just you have to develop a very concentrated mind to begin to settle in to the present moment , because the present moment is , it's a miracle , it's beautiful , it defies , it's it's God and it's a complete trip .

And so , as I went deeper and deeper into the path of meditation and I started to actually feel motivated enough to go on a formal , long , silent retreats and I started to kind of contact the psychedelic nature of reality without the use of any substances at all , and I actually heard some of my teachers talk about their exploration of psychedelics and I thought ,

ok , maybe there's something here .

So I approached substances now with a whole new mindset and a whole new appreciation for what's possible and a reverence , and I approached them to kind of help me contact what is possible with meditation , to see , to maybe glimpse reality as it is , to use the substances that I came to realize were naturally occurring , placed here by creator , to evolve human

consciousness so that we can more accurate , more accurately see what we really are and what this really is . And so that became my motivation to deepen my meditative skills by intentionally destabilizing my perception of ordinary reality so that I could contact deeper layers of myself and deeper layers of God man , I love that and you know perfectly .

A lot of people are finding out about psychedelics and my , my worry about that I don't know if I'd call it a worry , but you know my , my challenge with this is that psychedelics are kind of like jet fuel or let's call it nitrous . Actually they're kind of like nitrous .

And if you've got a built-out car , like someone yourself who's been meditating , spiritual practice , disciplined , etc .

And also has intention , understands what the nature of reality is , at least to a basic level , right , some kind of awareness on what's going on here , and you choose to connect with a psychedelic , like you said to , you know , allow you to reach even farther and see what's possible , so then you can stabilize and integrate that into your day-to-day reality , well

then , yes , psychedelics could definitely be beneficial .

But you know , when we think about the average human being , especially in america , who's eating fast food , drinking tap water , all of these things , right , which again , not again , not judgment , not judging here , but you know , if you're driving like a 1988 Honda Civic and you put NOS in that thing , you know , worst case it's just not going to work , you know .

Or best case it's not going to work , worst case going to blow the entire engine up . So I'm curious for you , man , like what you found , especially in being a men's coach as well . I'm working so intimately with men , you know , and this can also be for women as well , but I'll ask you more on the men's side , since I know you specialize in that .

What have you found the value to be in your own life and also the men that you serve , in having a solid , foundational spiritual practice , whether that be breath , work , meditation , a combination of the two affirmations , whatever it is , but some type of non negotiable , every single day in that kind of realm , like a spiritual practice with regards to how

psychedelics can actually support someone in their life , like , do those things lead to someone ? Have you noticed them leading to something that allows psychedelics to work more efficiently and effectively in those people that have that foundation ?

And if you have done the mundane work of opening your perception to that experience without substances , through breathing , through just eating well , through meditation , then you're kind of primed for that experience .

So , although it will be , you know there's no way to prepare for something like that it'll be destabilizing , but at least there's some degree of openness to it .

I always say , like , if you're like a fucking tax accountant in des moines , iowa , and you go to a ayahuasca ceremony and the door gets kicked right off the hinges , it's going to be pretty hard to show up for work on Monday and find the ground . You know it could be a while before you can put the pieces back together and function . So yeah to your point .

I look at a daily life and the analogy that I always give is supplements and weight training . I know you're in the weight room so you know there are supplements on the market that you can leverage to amplify the hard work that you're doing in the weight room . But supplements on their own are not going to get you very far and arguably could be harmful .

So the daily practices , the daily rituals that you do in your sober , mundane life are , it's like tilling the soil that is going to allow for the seeds that are planted through the psych dog experience , that actually have somewhere to germinate and develop and flower into improved conduct , improved insight , you know , greater meaning in your life , greater capacity to

love and to connect . But if you're not tilling the soil , then the psychedelic experience just becomes a trippy dream that you once had . Best case scenario yeah , comes , you know , a break in the fabric of your mind that can cause , you know , psychotic states . Ethan . So we have to respect these substances and prepare for them .

You know that's how we pay our respects by showing up ready , and the way we do that is how do you live your daily life , and the more you live your daily life in a way that is conducive to having a beneficial psychedelic experience , the less you actually ever need to go have a psychedelic experience being an Aries or whatever it is .

You know I would do cold plunges and things like that . But I never really understood when people said breathwork could be a psychedelic . And you know I understood the science behind it of like , okay , we release endogenous DMT when we breathe , etc . Etc . But I was never really getting the experiences that people were talking about .

And then I remember there was a time this is like a perfect example of how you're doing the work you connect with a psychedelic , it expands you and then you integrate into your sober reality and that's why I wanted to lay this out . So I went to a retreat that a buddy of mine hosted in December of 2021 . And we went there and we had an LSD day .

There was like four days before this where we were doing combo and also just completely sober days , fasting and whatnot . But the last day there we did an LSD ceremony and a gentlemen at the retreat and I had been breaking off on our own to just go do breath work whenever there was like stuff going on or whatever .

So we have been doing this style that you know I call DMT breathing I'm sure someone else has come up with that name before , but I just call it DMT breathing . It's very quick . It's not like Wim Hof or even holotropic where you're going to be doing these long rounds .

This is like you got five minutes , cool , you can blast a couple rounds , have some fun and get some , you know , cold exposure in if you want to do that after or whatever . So we have been doing that and you know , just getting cool results , nothing to write home about . And so now we're on LSD and I lead a cannabis ceremony .

Bunch of people that you would probably know were there too I won't mention their names just for safety sake , but we're all there hanging out and we had this beautiful cannabis ceremony with probably 25 , 30 people that joined in for the ceremony and at the end I just decided . I was like , oh , this was such a beautiful ceremony , let's close it out with some .

Paul Cech , raise your hand and ohm , right on the way down , and let's just do one round of breath work to kind of close this thing out . And I really thought I was just going to close out this container with the breath work . It was going to be normal , whatever .

Well , we did a round of just 10 breaths , right , just 10 fast breaths , breathe in , hold , squeeze right . Little DMT hit and all of us went to like planet Neptune man , I mean it was crazy . I mean it felt like a slingshot . I mean it felt like a slingshot . And so when we came back , everyone was like , did you know that was going to happen ?

I was like I had no idea . Guys , I wish I could say I knew , but I did not know it was going to go that deep . So we did a bunch of more rounds and they were really wild experiences happening . People were tapping out every single round from some kind of stuff going on , and after that I realized , wow , this goes way deeper than I thought .

And ever since then , when I do breath work like when I do breathe with cannabis I always do it in a sober state , because I just guide better in a sober state than an altered state , and so I'm doing the breath , work , completely sober , right .

Even the caffeine is out of my system by that time of night and I'll have some of the most psychedelic experiences of my life . I mean full on visions , forgetting where I am , forgetting my name , the whole thing . There's like half the time where Chris will be talking on the microphone and all of a sudden I'll be like what's that ?

I'll just have a little peak of awareness , like what's that sound , and then I'm like , oh , I'm in a workshop , oh , it's my workshop . Oh , my God , my name is Ryan . Oh , I got to get there in a completely sober state . Have you found those kind of similar things to be true ?

Your perception is that the self-experience is arising within the larger space of awareness that you are the self-experience is arising within the larger space of awareness that you are and yes , that's available as an abiding state really through the practice of meditation . Well , that's 24-7 . That's the masters , that's the bar they call us toward is to live there .

You can live there and you can function very highly there . But yes , I've been a pulmonaut for years and I've explored my breath daily vigorously and I have breathed myself into some transcendent states and I'm , you know , my gift and my curse is that when I'm into something I go for it .

And so with breath practice , you know there was many times where you know I've fallen over from my meditation cushion and you know , demir passed out . That's happened a lot .

But now I think , through consistent practice , the minimal , effective dose of breaths , of breathing required to shift , alter your state gets lower and lower and lower and to the point where you can really intentionally govern the musculature of the deeper abdominals and generate just the right amount of tension and just the right amount of realization , you can have a

completely transcendent experience in the space of one breath at will . You can really use your breath like a spear to break apart ordinary reality and to kind of just take a warm bath into this infinite , spacious freedom of awareness and then back into Ryan , back into Michael , back into the conversation , back into fucking paying for your food at Whole Foods .

It's always available , always right here , and that's you know . You make a great point . Lsd can show you the way it can become the leading edge . And your breath practice without substance can eventually catch up to the psychedelic experience . And your meditation practice can eventually catch up to the breath practice .

And as time goes on and you're advancing in these three categories , you find that your everyday kind of state , when you're not trying to do anything at all , is leaning more toward the transcendent , the mystical . Really , it's a mystical experience of life which is the spiritual path .

Yeah , one of my really good buddies , aaron Abkey , is a huge teacher of A Course in Miracles and I work with his business partner too , mark Anthony Lord , who was recently on the show , and he's also a really amazing teacher of the course , and so I've been hearing about A Course in Miracles through a lot of different avenues for a long time .

Because I was never raised religious . I don't have any dogmatic views around Jesus or God or using those terminologies . I don't mind using creator , but God has no charge behind it . For me , it doesn't mean Christian God or anything like that . Same with the Holy Spirit . I think of the Holy Spirit like the higher self .

You can change these words in and out , but the way I've looked at it is in this book they talk about how really the only medicine there is is forgiveness . In this book they talk about how really the only medicine there is is forgiveness .

And you know , in terms of how you do that , yeah , you can meditate , you can do breath work , you can do all these things , but as you forgive what they actually say , which I love and I'm curious if you resonate with this , is they're saying because I know you'll get this they're not saying forgive what was done .

They're saying forgive what never actually happened , because this is all a dream . Right , this is all an illusion . It doesn't actually exist , like michael actually doesn't exist , ryan doesn't actually exist . We're essentially what the book would say the son of god experiencing itself , and daughter as well . Right , androgynous , but you know , like experiencing itself .

And so when I let's say that you kick my foot or something , right , the old way of forgiving that we were taught through religion and whatnot would be like well , I forgive Michael , because I know I should forgive him , but fuck that guy . You know , like , I hope he gets his foot kicked too , but I'll forgive him , right .

It's kind of like this , like weird version of forgiveness , whereas this is , like you know , let's say you kick my foot , I get triggered . Well , in that moment I get to forgive myself . Oh my goodness , I just believed the dream again .

And oh my goodness , michael never did that , because this is just a dream and I know that can sound kind of like out there to anyone who hasn't meditated a lot or done breathwork or done psychedelics or anything we're talking about . But I'm curious if you resonate with that , because this book really changed a lot for me , man .

I'm reading a second book now called your Immortal Reality , and it's just so simple because what I found is that the closer you get to oneness , god creator , whatever you want to call it , the simpler things get . Like you were talking about , right , like it's a very small shift from like regular consciousness to what you call enlightenment .

That's why the old quote says what do you do before enlightenment ? Chop wood , carry water . What do you do after ? Chop wood , carry water . It's a very small shift but very significant shift . But at the end of the day , I'm just curious if that resonates with you , because that's been something that's , you know , really been like . You know , eyeing me up here .

It's really interesting .

You know you have a lot of highly realized teachers who are founts of wisdom because of their perceptual abilities , but they act like assholes and that's not cool . So my teacher always says conduct as fine as barley flower inside , as vast as the sky .

I mean , it's a quote from from an ancient tibetan mystic , I forgot who , but that's the the line we have to hold .

But yeah , there's like , um , there is relative reality , it's not , there is me , there is you , but we can kind of travel between different states of consciousness that offer different vantage points and we can see what we can access , a vantage point that we could call non-duality , which I think is akin to the way you describe forgiveness .

Yeah , forgiveness is relaxing the perceptual experience of an internal self and an out there world . That are two separate things . And forgiveness is this relaxation , not just relaxing your muscles but relaxing your perceptual system that fixates things into self and other to learn , and you can learn it's .

It's a combination of skills anyone can learn , takes a bit of practice but it's available to anyone . You can relax that reactive othering and forgive your perceptual experience . And that is to have the direct experience , not as a spiritual platitude that all is one , but to experience it directly .

And then to allow that direct experience , not as a spiritual platitude that all is one , but to experience it directly . And then to allow that direct experience to change the very fabric of who you are and how you show up in the world .

Like defend yourself if you have to , if someone's coming after you , like all of that is all good , you know , because , like you said , it is paradoxical , like , yes , this is all real , right , in the 3d plane , or however you want to call it , just like a dream is real while you're in it .

You know , and the way they talk about it in the book , that I really enjoyed , it was a great analogy that I imagine you'll resonate with too .

Is , you know , I think , for at least me , I won't project it on you or anyone else , but when you start getting tastes of this right , this idea we're talking about , of non duality or getting closer to God , or enlightenment whatever term you want to put on it you know this feeling of being more at home within what you truly are .

You know , as you start to get closer to that point , it's very interesting that not only do things get simpler , like I've mentioned before , but also , what starts happening is , you know , in a lot of ways you start realizing like , oh , wait a minute , I want to be able to tell everyone about this .

You know , I want to go tell my parents , I want to go tell my friends , I want to be able to tell everyone about this . You know , I want to go tell my parents , I want to go tell my friends , I want to tell everyone to wake up within the dream and all these things , right , and I think a lot of the time that comes from a place of good intention .

But you know , we never know what karmic cycle we're interfering with , and that's been something I've had to , you know , really get a hold of the last like , say , five years , because you know , as you start experiencing more love , you want everyone you love to experience it too .

But the funny thing that the book says about it is that they give us analogy of like . Let's picture that you're a parent and you go in to your child's room and you see that they're having a nightmare , right , they're kind of like rustling around and whatnot . Are you going to run up to them and shake them awake ? No , you're not going to shake them awake .

That would freak them out , right . So what you're going to do is you're going to sit on the edge of the bed . Maybe you're going to rub their leg and tell them hey , it's okay , it's not real , it's just a dream , it's okay .

And because you're being calm and soft with it and you're just gently touching them , eventually they open their eyes and they realize all is good . You know that analogy is kind of like what we're all doing for each other .

If we're coming from a very high level point of view , we're not trying to rush anyone else's quote unquote waking up , because for all we know , if we are infinite beings and we are go through reincarnation , if you choose to believe that , you know like we have infinite times to figure this out , and at the end of the day , it might not be someone else's time

to figure that out . And it's very easy , as a human that you know is in this experience , to think , oh , they're missing out , like they're not getting the experience they should be getting , like I'm getting . But at the end of the day , that might actually be exactly what their soul requires for the next lifetime to wake up a little more .

And so I'm curious for you to like . You know , when you started getting into this stuff you know meditating , psychedelics , all the things we're talking about did you also have that urge to want to go , like , share it with everyone , even though certain people maybe were standoffish about it , maybe didn't really want to hear it ?

And if so , how did you handle that ?

Because I have a lot of listeners that reach out that are having family members that you know are stuck in doom and gloom thinking or victim mentality and they're like Ryan , I just want to wake them up and I'm like listen , I get , that comes from a place of good intention , but if someone isn't making the invitation , not only is it falling on deaf ears , but

it's actually , like , you know , kind of interfering with their free will . So I'm curious if you've dealt with that challenge before .

But , to your point , if you're offering advice or a path to somebody who hasn't asked for your advice or a path , both parties lose , because the experience of getting that information is like well , I'm not good enough , so I have to make these changes . And the experience of giving the information is the person's not necessarily ready .

They're not interested , they didn't ask . Think of all the things that you had to go through . I don't mean you personally , but anyone who's listening to get you to a place where you were interested in the things that you came to be interested in , where you had the courage to take a leap and do something you know risky , that ended up growing you .

You have to come to that in your own time . So the I'll even say the same thing on the men's retreats that I teach which , by the way , we don't use any substances . but we all experience altered states and I'll tell everybody on the first day and the last day do yourself a favor and don't go back out in the world and be like oh . I just did .

We did this and we did that , we did this . Let this experience just kind of matriculate through your system and wait until you have an accurate kind of view on what you just went through , really , before you start telling everybody else that they should do it .

Because if you share an experience , be it psychedelic or otherwise , with somebody who wasn't there in sharing that experience , you might be met with a quizzical look or a wait . You did what or you felt what , and now you start to second guess something that you went through that felt good .

So I think , with regard to a psychedelic experience or any kind of spiritual discipline or any kind of transcendent state that you reach , let your motivation , your authentic heart's motivation to save the world and to help people , let your actions be the way that you do that . Don't proselytize , don't preach . Let your actions be the way that you do that .

Don't proselytize , don't preach , don't tell other people what they should do .

Just allow your conduct to be skillful and love people where they are and meet people where they are , and the people who are interested in what you're into will come to you and then tell them everything you learned and everything you think and everything that they could do if they were so interested .

But wait until they ask , because if they don't ask , unsolicited self-improvement advice is fucking mean .

But how people feel when they're hearing you basically like push this stuff on them is exactly like you said , like oh , why do you think I need this ? Am I not good enough ? Etc . Versus like if you just become the embodiment of what you would otherwise state to someone , the right people will notice and go hey , man , you look really happy .

What have you been up to ? Or hey , I see you crushing it in your relationship and business , etc . Like what's your secret ? And that's their soul , saying hey , I'm ready for what you have to share with me , that's it .

I forgot the name of the author , but it was a book about the Greek philosopher Plotinus , and Plotinus has a quote in the book I I don't remember it verbatim , but it's something like a real philosopher doesn't have to say what their philosophy is . They're living it moment by moment , to the point where , if you just observe them , you know what it is .

So if your philosophy is to want to help people and be a light of love and help people find their greatest self , then do that through action , not through what you say .

What was the name of that ? One more time ? Return to the one , return to the one . I'm going to write that down .

I'm always looking for I think it's brian hines and it's his examination of some of the writings of fatinus , oh , that is amazing man , and you know , one thing you brought up there that I'd love to um expand on a little bit is you know you do men's work and you know you do it very well as well . I mean , like what you're doing ?

with men is yeah it's incredible , man I mean with the savage and the saint and everything you're doing with men is . Yeah , it's incredible man I mean with the savage and the sane and everything you're doing for any man listening to the show right now , or any woman that knows a man that is in need of some support , some guidance , et cetera .

I just want to give Michael a shout out for that , because he's literally world-class at what he does .

But one of the things that yeah , of course , man , and one of the things that I'm curious for you on is I I find a lot of men , especially with the lack of rites of passage happening in society today , kind of use psychedelics as a stand in for rites of passage . What are your thoughts on that ?

You know , have you seen that trend or I don't think it's an actual trend of men saying it , but have you noticed that uptick and , if so , like you know being is how you work in that realm . What are your thoughts on it ? You know , do you have any certain you know ideas on what we could do with that ?

If that's playing Russian roulette , does it have a place ? I'm curious your thoughts on that .

I mean , I went to Peru when I was like late 20s , I think , and yeah , maybe if there was some ritual , like I had to build my own rite of passage with what was available to me . So , yeah , what do we do as a culture to shift that ? I don't know .

You know countries and things like that . Albeit , you're kind of like bypassing a lot of the other stuff that goes along with it just for , like that grandiose experience . But it does kind of give people a quick ROI , you know .

It's kind of like , for instance , like if you're a fitness instructor and you want a man to realize that you know you're a good fitness instructor , and you want a man to realize that you know you're a good fitness instructor , you make him get big biceps right or whatever he thinks matters , and he's like oh , my god , you got me bigger arms .

Now I'm in right . So , like I understand it from like a quick roi type thing , like hey , there's more than meets the eye here and I will show you an experience that allows you to see that . And then , okay , now that we've had the experience , let's figure out how to stabilize that through sober work , through integration and things like that .

But it is interesting to think about . You know , like you know , what role psychedelics play in a rites of passage type ritual . Do they play a role there ? I think they do as well . But I think that you know one of the things I'm going to ask you about right after . I think the number one thing missing in a lot of these is integration .

You know , and I think that's why people go from ceremony to ceremony and I'm like I say all the time . I'm not here to judge anyone . I've done a lot of psychedelics , but what I've learned over the time is that the goal is to be high all the time on your own supply . Like , I think , anyone listening would .

You want to be high all the time , more than likely . But you know that you can't use an exogenous substance to be able to get that every single day right . Either they fall into addiction , they stop working , et cetera .

So I'm curious for you , man , just to open up a big conversation here what does integration look like for you and what does it mean to you as an individual ? And also maybe you can extrapolate it into how you view it when it comes to your clients , the men you work with , et cetera . I'm just curious to see what you'd say on that .

Are you cultivating energy or are you living in a depleted cycle ? Basically , it occurs to me now what I teach and I don't bring psychedelics into my work at all , but I teach integration .

That's what I teach , and the more integrated you live in your daily life , like I said before , the less that the psychedelic experience really calls to you , because you're , you're living . Integration is tilling the soil so that it's fertile , so that the seeds of insight can sprout .

And , like I said before , in the absence of a ritualized daily life that pays attention to the six foundation principles state of your mind , depth of your breath , breath , quality of your sleep , nutrition , hydration and movement . If you check those six boxes , you'll be amazed at the creative insights that come through you .

You'll be amazed at how you can reframe problems . You'll be amazed at how you can access deeper states of tranquility , peace . So integration is allowing the seeds to sprout . Well , yeah , integration is daily life , and I agree with you 100% , because I've seen the same thing Individuals who go from ceremony to sermon do more medicine .

I want to do more medicine . Wait a minute . Do you have even a shred of discipline to stop eating junk food and to sit still for 10 minutes a day ? Or are you kind of in a lazy way , passing the buck to some cactus juice to try to get you to behave better ? You know , at a certain point it just comes down to .

It's a matter of discipline , and so these substances will help you , but only if you're helping yourself .

If you're not helping yourself and you continue to show up to ceremony and to medicine , it doesn't occur to the individual , but the people around them can kind of see and feel they're just spiraling further and further off the ground and kind of losing contact with reality .

You don't really know what it is , maybe you're not smart on computers or whatever so you just know that your computer is going slower . So you find , through a series of different you know events , that you can start the computer on safe mode . And if you start it on safe mode you can kind of use it , right .

But since you don't know how to fix it in its normal operating system , you just stick on safe mode forever . What ends up happening is you miss out on a lot of the other aspects that you could utilize through the normal operating system because you don't have the context of what a virus is . You don't know that .

You then have one and you don't know that it can be fixed , and you also don't know that to fix it you have to go into the normal operating system at some point . You can't just stay in safe mode forever , right , you have to go , like you know , fix things maybe in safe mode , and then go back to your normal operating system .

And I think this is where a lot of people get confused . And you know , what I always say is I don't know if it's any of our fault that we're this confused because white bread is on the food pyramid . So if that's true , let's just think about how backwards everything is .

But it now gets to be our responsibility and opportunity to do something different about it . And that's one of the great things about , you know , the modern day world , with podcasts and all these things , is we get a lot more information now that you know we didn't get even 10 years ago , let alone 30 , 50 , 100 years ago .

And so , at the same time , you know , integration is where we actually stabilize and literally reintegrate . I mean , what psychedelics do is they disintegrate us , which can be great to start to see like oh wow , there actually is beauty in life . Oh , my goodness , I had no context , I forgot . I just thought I was living and suffering constantly .

Now I know there's something to work towards , but if you don't ever learn the path of what to practice from there after that , then you're going to mistakenly think that the only way to get there is by taking more medicine . And what I always tell people is what's different from that and the way that the pharmaceutical industry operates ?

There's not really much difference . Yes , they may be less dangerous to a certain degree , you know . I mean again , psychedelics can be very mind shattering .

So there is a lot of risk involved when it comes to that kind of stuff , especially , like you were saying earlier , if someone doesn't have any context of the other world that exists all around us , that is our real home , and then someone experiences that it could completely shatter their least some reality .

But at the same time , like we want to understand that we are drugs , like like we are , like we have all this inside of us , right . Like we are drugs like like we are , like we have all this inside of us , right . Like you know , a perfect example is with mdma . Mdma is not actually giving us an effect .

It's essentially providing a code for our body to dump its own chemicals and hormones which allow us to feel how we feel . So the idea is , what if we can teach the mind how to do that at will ? You know , maybe not the exact same way mdma , for instance but , like you were saying , through breathwork .

If we understand that through the breath we can release DMT , we understand what DMT can do and we understand what to utilize in that state and how to do it and how to go through it , well then we can have a psychedelic experience that rivals any straight up DMT experience .

But the great thing is , we did it on our own supply and we can come back within five minutes and be completely back to normal .

But you know that that integration phases is essential , because if you look at even , like , you know fitness right , we'll use that as an example If you go to the gym five days in a row to do chest , that's just irresponsible and dangerous , bro , right , you're gonna like pull muscles . You're not going to be able to give your muscles time to heal .

There has to be integration time and during that integration time , you're not just going to sit in a chair and watch Netflix and eat Cheetos . You're going to like be stretching , you're going to be mobilizing , you're going to be paying attention to your posture . Those are kind of like synonymous with what we're talking about in the psychedelic space .

Right , like , you want to be able to have this grandiose experience if you want to have one , and then come back and understand how to meditate , how to do breath work , how to make sure your food is clean , your water is clean , how to make sure you're having hard conversations with your romantic partner , with friendships , with business partners whatever those things

are , to make sure that you are showing up for yourself at the end of the day . And all of that works to integrate what you've learned in these experiences . And then , before you know it , like we've been talking about , you don't even need the medicine anymore . You have become the medicine . And now you are the psychedelic .

When you walk into a room and people feel the energy of it , the right people that are right for you at that time will start asking dude , what are you doing ? And so , in a big way , you are the pattern interrupt for these people . Now you are like the mushroom to them , know , and so it's really interesting .

I would say the barrier to entry is concentration , establishing concentration .

And , like I said , I've had the good fortune of studying with teachers , real deal meditation teachers , who frame the practice as this cultivation of specific skills , skills , and it becomes abundantly clear to me that the foundational skill that must be developed for meditation practice to bear fruit is concentration .

It's not sexy to cultivate concentration , it's not fun , it's not relaxing , it's difficult actually , and it requires intensity and effort and consistency . I'm on a soul mission to disabuse men particularly of the notion that meditation is kumbaya kind of passive , pleasant experience . It might be pleasant experience but it's work .

But if you develop that foundational muscle of concentration , you develop a capacity called metacognition , which is the ability to kind of reflect upon your own mind moment by moment , and then it becomes clear to you all of the discursive thoughts , the thousands of thoughts that you're having every day , that are bumming you out .

Your mind is like it can be a laser beam if you learn how to concentrate . But the untrained mind is like this just weak , diffuse light that shines everywhere but nowhere in particular . And the untrained mind , we generate all kinds of emotional experience through our imagination . That is afflictive .

Concentration begins this newfound capacity to intentionally direct the mind to the object of concentration , whatever it is . It could be your breath , it could be the suns of your body , it could be the external visual field , it could be the intentional cultivation of positive states .

And when you bring that savage capacity to concentrate , to direct your mind , to eviscerate thinking at the root and direct your mind intentionally , you can direct that power to the cultivation of the beneficial , positive qualities and you can become quite a saint .

You feel like a saint , you're so happy and everyone thinks , oh wow , he's so zen , he's so peaceful . What they don't know is that underneath the exterior of an authentically joyful yogi is a fucking psycho who learned how to concentrate to the point where they can reliably access feeling states . They don't need substances , they don't need MDMA .

They can really bliss out .

That's why I love your brand name , the savage and the same , because when we were connecting and you shared with me like how you came up with that name and what it represents , it's true , man , like I'm a very joyous individual and you know my , my good friends , that I hang out all the time , understand that I'm . You know everything right .

Like I have my challenging days and things like that . But one of the things that came easy for me , for whatever reason , was discipline .

But what didn't come easy for me was making sure that I was picking the right things to be disciplined with , because there's also like I don't want to call it downside necessarily , but a challenge that can happen with them being disciplined .

Like , for instance , like when it came to the gym , even if I woke up , my body was screaming at me like don't work out . Today I was like I'm just gonna no pain , no gain , go through it right . And so at the end of the day , like that needed shaping as well , you know .

So , whether or not you know , for anyone listening , you're on the side of like oh , I need more discipline , or you're on my side where it was like almost you had too much discipline but it wasn't being put in the right areas .

Both sides require balance and finding a middle ground and making sure that you are sustainable and consistent in being able to be that savage and the saint , as you put it , really well , really well . And one of the things that I found is that you know when you can do that . I mean , think about , like you know , I meant to say this too .

You're saying concentration is the number one thing , right , and I agree with that . Think about how challenging that is in the world today , right , or put it this way , it's actually not any more challenging than it was . But think about how many more excuses people have that it's going to be challenging . And I get it , guys , right .

Like I turn on my phone in the morning , I turn it off airplane mode to go start my meditation timer , and there's a bunch of notifications going off . And every single morning , without fail , my mind tells me dude , you don't need to meditate , just hop right into it , don't worry about it , just go start writing emails , make a coffee , do these things .

I have to show myself over time like , hey , it's fine , I have those thoughts . I'm not even going to try to fight them , because to fight them would make them more real . I'm just going to go forth and do exactly what I know . Every single day I'm doing the non-negotiable which every single day for me , I start out with a 30 minute meditation .

I was doing 20 for a while , but what I was finding is that and I usually do like a TM style , I just like you know , silent Buddhist style , uh mantra or breath one or the other , and what I was finding was that at about minute 18 was when I really started getting into that bliss state and then my timer would go off .

So , for whatever reason , you know , I'm sure other people might be able to get there a lot quicker than me , but it took me a little bit longer . So , for someone listening , if you're like me and you're finding like a minute 18 , you're just starting to get into like the real giblets of what meditating can do . Try increasing it .

You know like I went to a mystery school one time that basically said if any , if everyone could meditate for two hours every day , we'd reach enlightenment a lot quicker . And and being is how I meditated at least 30 minutes a day for a long time . I could totally see that .

I mean God , when I meditate just for an hour in the day , like 30 in the morning , maybe 30 in mid afternoon or nighttime dude , it is incredible how much you can shift and I'm curious for you , like you know , for someone listening who's maybe like oh man , I'm really resonating with this , but where do I start ?

What would you say in terms of a good place to start ? Are do I start ? What would you say in terms of a good place to start ? Are there any certain meditation styles that you really enjoy ? Is there a certain time allotment that you would have someone start with ? Like , what would be your advice on on for someone like that ?

the meditation object . Formal period of practice I would say minimum is 10 minutes . But as practice deepens through time , there's a the distinction between formal meditation practice and life really blurs .

And you have you develop this capacity to just really pour the fullness of your attention on the thing that you're doing , so that emails becomes just as meditative as sitting on your meditation cushion . You know that's the high bar , the masters in this practice . They they'll sit because why not ? But they don't have to meditate .

My teacher , shenzhen , used to say early stages of the practice , meditation is something that you do during your day as you remain consistent . There's a figure ground reversal , so that your day is something that unfolds within the container of your unbroken meditation . But you know you mentioned about bliss at 18 minutes .

I think if an individual's expectation is bliss , they're setting themselves up for failure . Don't expect bliss , develop concentration . It's , you know , it really actually bothers me and I'm not saying that you're doing this . But when I hear people frame the practice as like a warm bath , it's just so nice and it and so mellow .

Well , when people inevitably don't have that experience , they come to the conclusion that I'm not good at this or this isn't for me . But , like I said earlier , I'm trying to call men into this practice by reframing it as the real warrior work . You're learning to exercise mastery over your own mind . Your mind is a wild elephant . It needs to be tamed .

The sacred texts say the rope and the whip are necessary at a certain point on the path . The rope and the whip are your ferocious determination , your discipline , your intensity . These are the qualities that are actually required for fruitful meditation practice , not passive kumbaya states of bliss .

So there's a lot of apps and stuff that people can use , but I think if you really want to understand in your direct experience what's possible through meditation , you have to be connected to a teacher who knows what's up , and the fact of the matter is most self-proclaimed meditation teachers don't know what's up .

The fact of the matter is most self-proclaimed meditation teachers don't know what's up . I'm not here to sling mud , but I live in venice beach , california , bro . Everybody's a fucking meditation teacher . Nobody knows what the fuck they're talking about .

The real ones are rare , so you gotta , you know , dig a little deeper and see if you can find somebody yeah , dude , it totally makes sense .

They don't want to be known , they don't want it , they're not out there , they're not even saying they're a teacher like you got to really search for . I found two in my day and both have been absolutely profound , like to a level where you just hang out with them and you're getting a lot of downloads and amazing stuff .

And you know , it's funny because the second one I met I knew it was legit because as soon as I found out about him , I hit up the number I was given by a buddy of mine and I get a call right away and I was like , oh , this must be this guy . So I answer it and the girl's like How'd you get this number ?

And I'm like , oh , my buddy , chris , gave it to me . And she's like Okay , cool , what do you want to do with XYZ ? I'm not gonna say his name , I'll tell you privately through so and so . And they're like , okay , cool , well , you can't talk about him on social media , don't ever mention him on a podcast . And you can talk about him with your friends .

But just know you will be judged on who you bring to us . Like , if you bring us someone kind of weird and they say they came through you , you're never going to see this guy again . Like he's not out there , you can't find anything about him . So I wasatted with this guy and very quickly I knew like , oh , you're on a very different level .

There's only one guy I've found that has been on a similar level . This guy , don out from Arizona , mystical dude . Again like he's not as secretive , but he's not putting himself out there either . So it's very interesting . I'm glad you mentioned what you mentioned about you know , meditation , because for me , meditating can be a lot of things .

Like this morning I sat there for 30 minutes and just repeated the mantra and I don't think I got really anything in terms of like profoundness , bliss , whatever . But that's okay , cause that's what I required today . That's what my that's where I was at . Other days I reach bliss .

Some days the entire thing is me working through trauma and just breathing through fucking , very uncomfortable feelings . It can be a lot of things , but the thing it's definitely not that a lot of this is like the number one thing I find people get stuck on .

A meditation is I tried meditating and all I do is think I can't , I suck at this and it's like dude , that's actually why you're meditating to really notice just how fucking crazy your mind is and to start juxtaposing yourself , separate from that thing that is always thinking but is not actually you , and so I think it's really cool that you mentioned that , you

know , because it is like one of those things that I think a lot of people get confused on . You know , oh , meditation , just calm peace , it's like it can be , that's within the realm of possibility , but that is like one every out of every 10 meditations . For me , that is just like a nice easy bliss experience .

The other nine are all sorts of interesting things , from challenging to just weird , to everything in between . It's really cool .

So it's maybe not the best idea to kind of look back on every single individual period of practice and just show up every day , just the same way you do in the gym . You're not going to have one workout where your physique suddenly becomes the dream physique of your life . It's just the accumulation of many , many , many , many periods of practice .

And so just become less concerned with some finish line because there isn't one and just do your best to relax that . The more deeply I understand the practice through the good example of my teachers , the more I understand how simple it is . It's just just chill , just relax , really just try to relax .

That's because when we relax , we open into this view of the way things really are , and things are pretty beautiful . It's just hard to see with all the tension .

But , man , I want to make sure I give you an opportunity to share where people can find you , where they can find out more about Savage and the Saint and everything you got going on , man .

I write out a weekly reflection and then you'll also stay in the loop for the men's retreat and my online program , which is the Masculine Vitality Program , which is actually really good for integration on the other side of experience or preparation for an upcoming experience , or just how to amplify your vitality and how to ritualize your day in a way that you'll

start to fall into this positive feedback loop of cultivating energy . Pouring energy into the things that are meaningful , getting energy from the things that are meaningful , cultivating more energy that's what vitality is .

It's a state of being where you've got more juice pumping through you than the hindrances that are holding you back , and that's a good place to live , man . It's available to anybody who just understands the basics and you can also hit me on instagram savage , insane . But yeah , bro , it's a pleasure .

Man , I'm glad to be connected to you and , uh , definitely be down to run it back on highly optimized one day in the not too distant future yeah , shout out to jason mccard also for connecting us .

What is the one piece of advice you would relay to them to allow them to use the proper discernment in choosing whether or not medicines like psychedelics are right for them in their life at this time ?

But it's very easy to go online and do research and watch a YouTube video of someone else's experience and pollute yourself with all this information . But your belly knows . So get into your belly , take seven deep ones and the answer will come . And respect it , whatever it is , because at a certain level you already know .

So if you guys love the show , I'd love a five-star review . Helps us get the show out to more and more people just like you , which we are so appreciative of , and wherever you guys are in the world . Whatever you're doing , I hope you're having the best day ever and , as always , may the source be with you to infinity and beyond peace .

For now , everybody , thanks for watching .