6. At First Glance

Hey guys, welcome to the sixth edition of this is your wake up call. I'm your host, Jerry Bisbee. And this is an open invitation to all who are pursuing recovery, or maybe like me, love someone who is or desperately needs to be. Maybe you too have had a wake-up call or two along the way. What I most want to share through this podcast is a message of hope and help and healing. Given my own story with this insidious disease, I'm looking to shift legacies.

which is why I'm so excited to be interviewing a variety of guests along the way, both professionals and regular people like you and me, as well as sharing some helpful resources along the way. Today, I've got the privilege of introducing you to a wonderful woman of God, dear friend, and colleague in the world of integrous leadership. CAT is highly accomplished, as you'll hear shortly, and has a heart of gold, tried by fire to be clear. You can learn more about CAT

her beautiful family, her books, and more at katarmstrong.com. With that, let's get started. Kat Armstrong, I am so excited and delighted to have you here today. There's so much to share on the front end about who is this person and why is she on the show today? So I want to give just a brief little intro, if I may. I had just a hoot of a time spending some time on your website earlier. And so my favorite line, guys, for those of you listening, Kat is a Mexi German.

Christ follower who loves to teach the Bible. That's like the favorite line of the day so far. So, you know, there's so many things I look at just. The wow factor, I go, wow, Kat, you started a nonprofit. You were a co-founder of Polished in the Dallas metro area, executive director there. You are an author of a couple of books. You speak frequently, and you are also on the board, I don't think I knew this, of Pillar Seminary.

Oh, and by the way, gang, she's pursuing her own doctorate because she doesn't have enough going on as it is. She serves as the wife of a pastor of an incredible church in the Dallas metro area. She's mom to an incredible nine-year-old son, Caleb. And your beautiful, adorable mom is helping to support all the balls that you have in the air, I think. Is that right?

We could not do it without her. We tell her often that she's indispensable and she came, you know, she, we lived together and she came at a time when I needed her and I'll be 42. It's interesting to say that, that I needed my mom in this season. so desperately and she moved in and it has just been such a support. And if you asked Aaron, Jerry, he would tell you the same thing that we can't do life without her. Wow. What a gift. That's so incredible.

Well, props to her, props to you. And I'm saying again, at first glance, Kat, you look like you've got it all together. And what difficult parts of life could you possibly have encountered? And so as I've been sharing over the course of these conversations, what's become absolutely evident is that we all have a story. I would love if you wouldn't mind just kicking us off and sharing a bit of yours, maybe just a high level overview of, you know, from your, your.

family of origin until now some of the you know highs and lows or bumps and bruises whatever along the way that you would care to share I think a high and a constant of my life, Jerry, is that I have been loved. I've been loved very well by my mom and my dad and my family of origin. So there's no lack of love there. And that is such a privilege. that I know so many, you know, they can't say that. And so I don't want to take that for granted. I think what's important to know is.

My mom and my dad were together until his passing a couple of years ago. And tragically, my dad struggled with a lifetime of substance abuse and mental illness, and both of those struggles untreated. led to a vicious cycle of depression and dependence. And ultimately it took his life. And so he... got to a desperate place and made some really terrible choices and left all of us reeling when he passed away. His death by suicide.

still is something that I grieve on a day-to-day basis. It just depends on when you catch me and what has reminded me of how much I miss him. But I know... in part, what it's like to love and to live with someone who's dependent upon a substance or multiple and to really not have the language to explain that.

to my friends or my family or myself. So Jerry, it wasn't until I got to college at Texas A&M in about 1999 that I started to figure out for my Christian friends that. There were some strange things going on in my house and that my father's addiction, I wasn't aware of my father's addiction. So he had a dear lease and he would go there and be inebriated. on the weekends and then come back and live a relatively normal life during the week and so high functioning

And I missed it. I didn't have any language for what an alcoholic is or a substance abuser. I just knew that he had a lot of struggles and they definitely impacted us. So by the time I got to college, Jerry. I realized that there had been some lows in my life that I thought were just kind of normal. But again, I was very loved. My dad loved me. My parents loved me. They loved each other. They were doing the best that they could.

I went to school knowing that I was loved and being supported by my family and also being really impacted by the hardships they were facing. So that kind of launched a journey of me trying to figure out. Who do I want to be? Am I going to carry carry on in this pattern? Because my father's backstory is that he has he had several kids and it isn't just me and my biological brother. And.

all of his kids have struggled with substance abuse or depression or a combination of both. And by God's grace, that isn't a part of my story. And I think part of it was that Jesus intercepted my life when I was 16. And then I got in a group of Christian women who discipled me all through college. And yeah.

That's a little bit about my family of origin. And I would say my favorite memory of my dad and of growing up was them cheering for me in tennis. So I played tennis and Jerry, it turns out I wasn't that great. I thought it was great. I thought it was great because I went to a really small high school. I mean, there were 43 people in my graduating class or maybe 39.

And so I thought it was really good at tennis until I started playing other schools. And I just remember my parents being so supportive and showing up for those games and cheering so loudly. So that's probably my favorite, favorite memory.

I don't think I knew the tennis part of your story. That's hysterical. I thank you for sharing it. And I think one of the things that you said that just really hit my heart, and I think it's true, not for just those in addiction. and those of us who love them but every human being i think is trying their best at the end of the day you know and i have to wonder and maybe you've had these conversations maybe you haven't with your mom to know um

I'm sure she sheltered you in a lot of ways from the reality of what was a part of her story. I know that my boys and I have had that conversation and you don't want them to know that pain or to know, nor should they. Is that true in your story too? Yes, definitely. I mean, my mother, if you haven't met Noemi yet, you need to. Everyone who's listening, you need to know my mom. is the strongest person I know. She's brilliant. And what I love about her, she's always learning.

So in the middle of COVID, she was the kind of person that would say, you know what, I signed up for an accounting class because I just want to improve my skills or whatever it may be. She's really applying herself to grow as a person, as a leader, as a Christ follower. And so that's really important to her. And I've really benefited from that. But yes, Jerry, you're right. My mom really protected us. And that's what every good mom is.

going to do. And she and I were probably learning language and insights about what my dad's struggles were together in a different way, but at the same time. And so she very much. protected myself and my brother and did an amazing job loving us and loving my dad through it and being such a faithful person in his life. So if I can ask how long were they married? Oh.

Oh, goodness. I mean, almost 40 years. I'm terrible at math, Jerry. I was on scholastic probation because of math, so I'm better with words. That's awesome. Yeah. you know, my experience and I'm guessing for those of us and, and please, please accept my condolences. I know that we share in that space and it's the hardest, it's the hardest loss of any kind.

that loss by suicide is devastating. So, you know, I saw the progression and the escalation, to your point, in not only the substance abuse, but unbeknownst to me, a large part, the... the mental struggles. I know that my former spouse, Tim, had PTSD to a level that I didn't even know. I was not aware. And so things were pretty much spinning.

You know, again, progressively, we were together the better part of 30, 31 years. And so, so recognizing that, like, I'm thinking, wow, you were in college when this started becoming evident to you. Were there changes in his behavior or what were some of the indicators, I guess, for you? Yeah. I mean, I think once I went off to college, I would come home and I think being outside of the house and experiencing a different day-to-day reality and then coming home, it made you hyper aware.

You know, when you go on vacation and you come home and you smell your house for the first time and you think. Oh, because I live in it every day. I forget that my house has a unique smell, but when you come home from vacation, you're aware of it for the first time.

And that's how I felt. I felt like I was aware of my surroundings in a new way and could see things more clearly because I wasn't inside of it. I was kind of living outside of it. And then my father had several... several threats for suicide for many years and so i think that that kind of escalated and i was more aware that that was happening so i knew that um his mental health was deteriorating And I also think, Jerry, there were so many factors at play, but I think my dad's generation.

And maybe it was just my dad, but I would say generally speaking for my dad's generation, talking about our feelings, processing trauma, understanding, having more self-awareness, you know, all of those things. are more acceptable now than I think for my father growing up. And so he was very private about the struggles that he was having. And even this podcast, this would be unimaginable to talk.

This deeply about things that we struggle with. Well, and you bring up several incredible key points. I think that not only generationally, because I definitely grew up with that. My folks, we didn't talk about anything, you know, and. to admit that there was a problem of any sort was like blasphemy against the family member, you know? And so praise God that we are talking about it. Praise God that we can be, I think that we're just cracking.

the surface of starting to get into that place of making it okay. But I think both for the addict as well as those who love them, the stigma and the shame that is attached to an addiction. That was absolutely more prevalent to your point. Thankfully, I don't know. What do you see, I guess, in terms of how that's opening? This podcast is an example.

This would be a God thing and a brave thing and not my thing, to be clear. But yeah, there's just seemingly more openness about it in a lot of levels. What's your experience to that end? I would say that there's a lot more being published and about the topics. I think there are a lot more people mainstream talking about this in a really accessible way.

I think you could Google some podcasts and books that may not have been there 10, 20, 30 years for all of us to benefit from. So I think we have more access. I think we're all using more common vernacular. words now that we understand. And for a while it was just because we didn't talk about it. We didn't know more about it. We didn't have any of the clinical terms, right? So we're all just the blind leading the blind. And now I think we have a little bit more awareness.

Well, I think that's true, and my mind just leapt to the younger people that are listening. The whole social media aspect, the good, the bad, and the ugly that are available there, but just to be able to... support. I was just doing some work for a nonprofit and thinking about how can we get this messaging out, you know, in a more accessible way.

The other thing I think I want to touch on that I know, because again, I know you're such a strong woman of faith and I'm so blessed by all the things that you do to contribute to that end. But I think for a long time, and I don't know. Like, I'd really love to get your input as to the gauge of where are we within the church at large, because I know for a lot of years in my own faith journey, you put the smile on when you walked in that door and everything's fine, fine, fine.

just like the very dysfunctional home I grew up in, you know. But we have to be able to take those masks off. We have to be able to be in a safe place and to embrace those who are hurting within the body of Christ. I want you to touch on that for just a minute. Tell me a little bit about how you came to faith.

What was your evolution in that process in terms of your journey? Sure. I came to faith in high school and it was my cheerleading coach and it was my choir teacher. We were at a Christian private high school. So of course they had the freedom to talk about their faith, but they noticed in me that I was a very performance driven student, cheerleader, and choir member.

I really was showing up doing whatever they told me to do and performing at a high level. And I enjoyed it. And both of them made comments to me about, you know, at some point in life. Performance won't get you where you need to go. You're going to experience failure.

And you're going to need something called grace. And that's really, Jerry, what they explained to me. I'm not sure if they use the Romans road or quoted scripture. I can't remember if they prayed for me, but in tandem, those two working women changed my life by one. their story with me, sharing their testimony, and then saying, Kat, there's a different way to live. And what they described is there could be a life.

Where your performance doesn't indicate whether people like you or you're popular, you make good grades. There's something called grace, getting what you don't deserve. They talked a lot about Jesus. I heard a lot about him at school and through chapel, but their lives, Jerry. exhibited a relationship with Jesus and it was new to me. So I came to Saving Faith. I went to the youth pastor at the time at Houston's First Baptist Church.

And said, I'm no fun. I don't like camp. I'm not a real youth groupie person, but I know I want to know Jesus and I want to learn the Bible. I don't know anything about the Bible. I don't know the difference between Abraham and Moses. I just know they're in there somewhere. And I remember John, the pastor at the time said, you should go to a Sunday school class.

That's for adults. And he said, I know you're only 16, but I bet you could sneak into the back and no one would notice. And he said, cause it's huge Sunday school class here. And he said, a very Southern lady with very Southern hair teaches this Bible study. And it was Beth Moore.

Sherry, I had no idea who this person was, that she was in publishing, that she was a Christian, that she was producing content that people were consuming. I didn't know. She was just a Southern lady, Southern hair. She taught a Sunday school class. I started sneaking into the back.

about 600 people every Sunday morning coming to that class. And she had front and back notes about whatever passage she was studying in the Bible with fill in the blanks and notes at the bottom from all these scholarly resources she was quoting. And she just blew my mind and you can't be in that woman's orbit.

without a contagious passion to discover whatever it is she's discovered. She presents it in a way that you're like, I've never seen that before. I think I might want to open my Bible and read what she's reading because how is she getting that? And so Jerry, that really shaped so much of my faith life, seeing a strong Christian woman talk about her faith eloquently. I wanted to emulate.

that part of Beth's life. I didn't want to be like Beth. I wanted that passion she had for the scriptures. And I wanted the kind of relationship she had with her savior. And so that kind of launched me into. learning more about the Bible. I remember sitting down with Beth and

telling her I was going on to college. I was so scared to leave home and worried that I wouldn't keep studying the Bible the way she did and learning from her. And she said, well, you should go to seminary, which is grad school for the Bible. That's really what set me on my path. It was because she was my Sunday school teacher and she loved me and she suggested I should go to grad school.

I made up my mind. Okay. That sounds like it's good for me. And thankfully I met a man who was on a similar path and we started dating at the beginning of my college career. We moved to Dallas to go to seminary once we were married. So I can really trace it all back to those two working women who shared their faith with me. And then my Sunday school teacher really showing me how to study the Bible and giving me this, what feels like an insatiable passion to learn more about Jesus.

wow, friend, you just triggered something that I felt like I was getting in my own spirit this morning. And that is, again, this reminder that your voice matters. Like these women were willing to share their stories with you. They were willing to be vulnerable. and open up. And so whether you're a Sunday school, you might not be, you know, a Beth Moore per se. And for those of you who are listening that don't know, she is a relatively renowned Bible study teacher or Bible teacher, I should say.

You know, regardless of your stature or your position or your role, just being willing to share your story. I think that is the heartbeat behind this podcast for sure. Again, is to be a voice of hope. And so, again, whatever side of the story that you find yourself on, whether you are the addict walking in shame within your family, struggling to make it, or, you know, you're the college-age daughter or the high school.

student, seeking answers. You know, find that trusted person. Find that person that you recognize is making an investment in you. They see you. And, you know, ask the questions. Have the conversations. Share your stories. Guys, that would be my takeaway from that list a little bit. That's powerful. Thank you so, so much. You know, and I'm curious to know then, did... Did your family, was there an element of impact that you had perhaps in your parents' journey with the face side of things or no?

Yes, my family, they were attending church and I know they believed in God. And when I came home, you know, on fire for Jesus, I. shared my faith with them. They already had a faith in God, but I think they really committed themselves to follow Jesus and we all got baptized together. And I want to say that was 98, 1998.

somewhere right around there. When I was right before I finished high school, we all got baptized together and it was really neat. I mean, all of our faith grew in that season and I'm certain that that's what comforted my dad. through the rest of his life until his passing. And I know that's what sustains my mom even now is her faith in Jesus. I frequently say I am standing upright and breathing.

based on the stories that we've walked through because of my faith in Christ. You know, there's other elements in people and in...

programs, whatever, that have supported in that process. So that's kind of a great segue, Kat, if I can ask, you know, just in terms of this radical, I call it the roller coaster of emotion when it comes to loss and grief. And, again, just working through those things. And we all do it so very differently. You know, it's also very personal. So what would you say in terms of?

your journey through this process? Do you have anything that you've leaned on outside of Christ or other things, resources, people who have supported you in that journey? What does that look like? Yes, this is such a good question, Jerry. Like you. I am a product of loving Jesus and he has done the heavy lifting. I too am getting choked up thinking about where I would be without my savior's help through the grief process.

A licensed professional counselor has really helped me. Thankfully, I was already in a relationship with a licensed professional counselor and seeing her on a regular basis for all sorts of other hard things in life. But when my father passed, it was crucial that I already had that established relationship.

I recommend it to no end. Although I think a spiritual director, if you're familiar with that genre of help, it can also really help you understand and process how you're connecting with the Lord. A lot about your faith walk. Obviously, Al-Anon has helped so many people in my life move forward. I recommend that all the time. I haven't done it yet. I'm scared to say that on a show, but I know that it's such a huge help. And then for me, Jerry, I really like...

to read. And so I'll read books about unresolved trauma. I'll read how the body keeps the score. I'll read grieving a suicide written by Oh, I'll get his name for you. Christ follower. That book was tremendously helpful. And then I would say finding other people who share your story. So Jerry, when you and I met, it was within moments we connected. on some of these things we're talking about now.

And it's, we joke, my, my, um, I have another friend, I won't use her name. Um, I'll just call her Jill, but she also has a family member who struggled with mental illness and substance abuse. And, uh, death by suicide. And we say this is the worst club to be in, but we're in it together. I don't want to add any new members ever. I want it to be a closed group.

But sadly, you do gravitate towards people. I remember two Sundays after my father passed, we were at church and two different women came up to me and hugged me and said, we have similar stories. And people like that have been so key to me being able to grieve because I can call someone who really understands. I won't freak them out and say, this is what I'm thinking and feeling. And they can affirm you're not crazy.

You're not alone. And that has really helped. And I'll just say, Jerry, that the grief is my least favorite emotion and feeling because I think it's so unpredictable. At least with frustration and anger, I know what frustrates me. You know, if you don't take out the trash long enough, it's going to peeve me and I'm going to get angry eventually. I can predict that I can predict when I'm going to get sad in a movie or.

feel excited, you know, but I feel like grief is one of those things that kind of comes out of nowhere. And so you've noticed that all the things I've described that have helped me have been things I just keep in my life as constants. So they're there when I'm blindsided by grief. So I have my licensed professional counselor, right? I have my people I call. I have the books that I go to. And I think we need those things. Such incredible resources. Thank you. Thank you.

And you're spot on. That's the thing about grief. That sneaky peep comes out of absolutely nowhere. And I'll be walking through the grocery store, you know, and be triggered by a soda that was the favorite of four. I mean, all the things and not just lost by suicide, although that's just this massive monster. And I see the impact that it's had long term, you know, as my boys are processing that differently through the loss of their father.

And just knowing, again, that there's someone else out there who, I guess that would be the message. That is always the message I want to land the plane with. Not that we're landing the plane quite yet, but again, to anyone listening to know you are not alone. I've just been so privileged to this point to visit with, you know, members of both sides of the street when it comes to this hideous.

destructive family disease of addiction alcoholism and the grievous loss that can transpire when the mental illness takes hold um which is frequently the case i'm learning so i guess one of the things too i wanted to go to

Um, you're a very public personality, you know, you, you are the wife to this pastor at this awesome church, Erin. Um, what is the name of your church? Dallas Bible. Right. And, um, So you've got your leadership within this prominent ministry organization that we both know and love called Integrous Leadership. You're a speaker, you're an author. all of the various hats that you wear. Now a student, right? Student, mom, daughter, all the things.

What would you want to add? Like if there were some parting words that we were going to close with today or just some additional resources, you've mentioned a number of really great ones. Thank you. But what's on your heart to share beyond that? Well, I practice something every day, almost every day called Lectio Divina, or it's, you know, listening prayer or imaginative prayer. People have different.

ways of categorizing it, but essentially I go to a gospel and I look for the words of Jesus and I spend enough time meditating on one or two phrases from Jesus to really internalize them. Process them as if he were saying them to me and just to me. So I think a lot about how he said it to the person. He said it too, recorded in the scriptures, but also what would it sound like if he said these words just to me and on this day?

And this practice keeps me really connected to Jesus and really invested in the, you know, the gospels, but I'm in Luke. And just yesterday I was reading Luke chapter 12 and Jesus says the words, your father knows what you need. Your father knows what you need. Obviously, there's context to that. It meant a very specific thing to the people he was speaking to.

I could share that story at a different time. But after I processed the beauty of this historical moment and the context in which it was spoken and why Jesus said it to that original audience, I started to ponder and wonder. What if I allowed Jesus to just say those words to me in my context on that day? And that's what I've been passing along to people this week is that your father knows what you need. And some of us have had really great.

Dads, some of us have not. Some of us feel as though our dads have no clue what we're going through or could never understand. But we have a heavenly father who does know our needs already. And there are some. incredible security in that. And part of this disease can create a lot of detachment in our relationships and insecurity.

And yet we see this God who keeps wanting to attach to us and being relationship with us and that he knows our every need. Later in that chapter, Jesus is describing how. If, if God is going to take care of even the birds and the animals, of course, he's going to take care of us. And it's because our father knows what we need. And I think for me, that's what I would leave your listeners with today, Jerry, is that beautiful truth that we can rely on our Heavenly Father.

And that we may not even have to articulate what our needs are. And even better, we may not even understand our own needs. But he does. And that's good news for me. That's incredible news. That's incredible news. And you saw me tearing up on this side. We're recording on Zoom for those of you who are just listening. And I'm so unbelievably grateful for those very words that hit my heart in a massive way.

And I'm trusting that the Lord's going to use it to touch the heart of our listeners. Kat, thank you so much. I could expound on that, but I don't want to touch it because it's so beautiful. I want to let it sit right there. I love that practice. And I want to begin incorporating it with another extraordinary strategy. So, Brent, thank you so much. I really don't have any other words to say than thank you. You are a gift.

not only to the listeners today, but just a gift to humanity. I'm so blessed and privileged to call you a friend. Thank you for your time. Sherry, thanks for having me on the show. You're a treasure to everyone in your life and just a gem to me. Thank you.