4. Courage to Change the Things I Can

Hey guys, welcome to this fourth edition of This Is Your Wake Up Call. I'm your host, Jerry Bisbee, and this is an open invitation to all who are pursuing recovery, or maybe, like me, love someone who is, or desperately needs to be. Maybe you too have had a wake-up call or two along the way. What I'd most want to share through this podcast is a message of hope and help and healing. Given my own story with this insidious disease, I'm looking to shift legacies.

which is why I'm so excited to be interviewing a variety of guests along the way, both professionals and regular people like you and me, as well as sharing some helpful resources along the way. Today, I'm excited to introduce you to a fabulous friend and recovering codependent. This voice needs no introduction if you're a savvy sports fan and listen to sports talk radio in the Denver metro area. Sandy's been a fan favorite for years, and yet his story, not only professionally, but personally.

are shared here with raw vulnerability and emotion. You'll not want to miss today's episode, and I hope you'll share it with others who could benefit from Sandy's message. With that, let's get started. Hey, good day, Sandy. So great to see you today. Thank you so much for agreeing to hop on. This is your wake-up call. I'm just really honored to have you as our guest today.

I'm privileged to know you a bit beyond the scope of our call today. Just again, we've both walked through some pretty harrowing tragedies as a part of our story and in our journey to recovery and healing.

which I guess among those journeys is part of our story. Would you agree? Absolutely. I found in one of the first meetings I went to that Your story had a lot in common with mine. And as time went on, I think I found that there were more things in common. And maybe you found that too. And we've gotten to be good friends. And the thing I like about the meeting we share is that so many people are open and vulnerable.

And I was closed off and very much a perfectionist and kind of an isolationist before I came into the rooms. And people like you have helped me change. in that way uh showing that uh a very old dog can learn new tricks well i think it's safe to say um i was every bit that when i walked into those rooms and i think you nailed a key component too

you know, again, the malady that we share. And for those of you who don't know, Sandy's referencing an Al-Anon group that we're both blessed to be a part of. And I think isolation is really one of those. commonalities. And I would venture to say whichever side of the street you're on, whether you're the addict or you're the codependent, when we get triggered and or we're just as damaged as we are when we walk into those rooms, that's a key piece. So thank you for that.

Well, it's given me the courage to try to experiment with new things, patterns that I've never developed before in my life. Just recently, within the last week, I took a trip to St. George, Utah. It's a bit of a haul if you're driving, but it's a wonderful place. Maybe not as much in late July or early August, but they're about nine, 10 months a year where the temperatures are very mild. And I love to play golf.

Doing things for myself like that were very difficult before. I was tied up, not that it was unpleasant, but with a lot of family outings.

during the course of the summer months, especially around the July 4th holiday. It was kind of a tradition that as many as a dozen of us uh would get together in one place and again i had a good time but it was something that other people arranged And it was something I felt I had to do, even if I wasn't crazy about all the activities that went on while we were there.

planning trips for myself, that's at least half the fun is in the planning and organizing. And again, it's something that I've let other people do before. Now I'm more self-reliant and more confident in doing things that not necessarily have been things that I'm not good at doing, but things I haven't even tried to do. Wow. And through the program, I've met people. I've got a trip planned for the fall that was actually mostly put together by somebody else, but there were three of us.

who kind of got together and said, let's see if we can make things happen. And we're making it happen. And we've got probably about 95% of the trip arranged and the only part of the trip were undecided. on is whether we'll bring our golf clubs to Birmingham, Alabama in early October. Well, I don't know Birmingham, Alabama. I've never been there.

But again, it's a new experience for me. It's going to a place I've never gone to. I've never been to St. George, Utah. I've been to Salt Lake. I've been to Moab. But I've never been as far south or as far west. So close to Las Vegas, I've been to Las Vegas a few times, but it's actually only about 100 miles north of Las Vegas. So these are just things that I'm getting out and experimenting with things, seeing what I like, seeing what I don't like.

And I have friends who don't necessarily come on these trips with me all the time, but they have suggestions. And they're making changes too. So it's all kind of exciting. And I've seen the growth in the program with everybody, especially our Tuesday night group. That's so fantastic. And what you just shared, it's so parallels as I'm even just listening.

or thinking back to my son DJ story. I don't know if you've had a chance to listen to those couple of episodes, but, but he very much talks about, you know, the seclusion and the isolation and the. the fear of doing things, you know, and, and so to see just the growth that we've all experienced is so powerful. So Sandy, why don't you start? I'd love to just invite you to, to step in and sharing your story.

You know, whether you want to go back as far as some childhood memories. But again, as I share, like my first episode, even in my coaching, I just want to say, tell us some of the good, the bad and the ugly. Because again, I think that we all have it.

And the biggest piece that I have found that just in the responses I've been receiving, that level of vulnerability that you spoke to, we didn't have it when coming into the rooms because, you know, shame is such a part of, I think, again, both sides of the street. So, but therein lies the way that I feel like we're able to impart that message of hope that is so a part of my heart for this podcast. So I'll kick it to you, sir. Thank you. But I think you have to excavate.

extract things from your past even your very early years really to get the healing process started and get the most out of the program. You mentioned Al-Anon. There's ACA. Now, my parents weren't alcoholics, but there was alcoholism in my family, especially on my mother's side, going back at least four generations. When I was growing up, I was the first of three. I have a brother and a sister. My brother is three years younger and my sister is six years younger.

So I think my parents did a lot of box checking too. They were married in 1955. I came along in 57. My brother came along in 60. My sister came along in 63. We moved a little, but not a lot. I was born in Schenectady, New York. My brother was born in Needham, Massachusetts. And my sister was born back in Schenectady again. In early 1964, we moved to Westchester County, and that's basically where I grew up in Chappaqua, New York. But when I was three or four years old, we were living...

By then, I believe in Burnt Hills, New York, which is around the Tri-City area, Albany, Troy, Schenectady. I developed ulcerative colitis and I was hospitalized with that. And obviously at three, four years of age, I didn't know. Why I was being hospitalized, I knew enough to know I was sick and not feeling well. But the diagnosis turned out to be that I was.

suffering from my brother had been born right around that time. And I was used to getting, I suppose, 100% of the attention. Then my brother comes along. And I'm not even getting half. And obviously he has needs that I don't have by the time I'm three or four. So he's getting maybe 60, 65% of the attention. But I don't remember feeling neglected. But the doctor determined that I was suffering from severe stress, maybe neglect brought on by my parents. That was the doctor's diagnosis. And so...

For the time, three or four months that I was in the hospital, my parents weren't allowed to visit. Three or four months, Sandy? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my. Yeah, it was several months. Somewhere around three or four. And I didn't miss much school because they're basically the late spring, early summer months. And it might have been closer to three months than four. But in any case.

I had no idea why my parents weren't visiting, just that they weren't. And so I think my feelings or sensitivities to abandonment probably started. Right there. And, you know, much later on in life, my parents explained that it hadn't been their choice, that they were told by. the doctors that they weren't allowed to visit and that that would have

a severe impact on me, much for the worse. I remember having to drink, not that this was unpleasant either, chocolate milk. I was on a special diet. I don't know, for several... years, four or five years after that. But I remember not feeling as strong or as active. as other kids were. And it probably was a big break when we moved to Westchester County. And I remember I made a friend my first day going to school on the bus.

This is kind of a parallel experience that my son had later on in life when he was the one who greeted somebody who was a stranger from the outside. Very early on in his schooling. And I've always looked back on that. And, you know, God does work in mysterious ways.

I had a fairly normal upbringing. I was involved in several groups. I was a loner. I'm an introvert. which makes what I do for a living kind of interesting. But I hear that a lot of entertainers are that way. Publicly, they're extroverts, but privately, they're introverts. And there's nothing terribly unusual about that. But if I... got into something i i wanted to be perfect at it i was very competitive uh almost obsessed and uh i i found uh

a tennis coach at our swim and tennis club, which happened to be located practically in our backyard. So I remember walking down there during the spring and summer months, and I was on a team that we had for the summer. And we'd practice at nine and then we'd stay all day and we'd play the rest of the day when we could. And there were a bunch of us about, I don't know.

uh six seven eight slightly different ages but uh they were all better than i was certainly at the beginning but i got to a point where i could i could play with them and The coach was very well known for that time and extremely successful. And we clicked.

And he was like almost an uncle. I wouldn't say he was like a father to me, but he was like an uncle. Again, gave me a tremendous amount of attention. And we talked about... all kinds of things not just tennis but i became very interested in the history of the game and techniques and ways of playing. And it really gave me a tremendous amount of confidence. That's huge. Give me a timeframe, Sandy. I'm sorry to interrupt. So this was about, this was, yeah, I would say.

When my interest seriously developed, it was around age 14 or 15, actually. You know, I played soccer and I played baseball and other team sports, but a little basketball. But I was good at tennis. And again, I could. play with just one other person or if we play doubles three three other people it wasn't like getting the team together I mean I got well when I was in grade school

Middle school, we'd organize baseball games in the neighborhood and play a little bit. But the conditions had to be right, and it was harder to get a big group together. We had a basket in our driveway. We used to get... 10, 12 kids to come over and we play after school for several hours. So it was a normal and even kind of privileged upbringing. I always had a bit of an inferiority complex. And when I got into high school, I'd been very interested in radio. I was one of those kids.

in the age of transistor radios who think i was fooling my parents i'd listen to ball games on school well so this is how this all started under my pillow And of course, I'd fall asleep with a transistor. My parents knew what I was doing all the time. But it was fascinating to me to listen, especially to late night baseball games on the West Coast that started.

going up back east at 11 o'clock and hear those voices from faraway places and kind of the theater of the mind. And that really interested me and intrigued me. And I actually... in my final couple of years in high school, got together with a couple of guys who were equally enthusiastic, and we started doing basketball games. mostly our high school's games, but we found an interested radio station that wanted us to put together during the state high school basketball tournament.

in the early part of spring wanted us to put together three one-hour shows. And we had to tape them. And we had no idea what we were doing. But we got three shows out. That's so cool. Three one-hour shows. And I remember the first time, it was supposed to air on a Sunday morning, the first one. And I think all three were. done on a Sunday morning. So Saturday, we do a high school basketball game. We had all kinds of interviews with coaches and players that we recorded. And it was really a blast.

And we were at the station trying to put the show together. And through our lack of expertise, we kept having to start over and re-splice everything. Finally, we got it to where we wanted. But by the time we did, it was like two or three in the morning. And when I got home the next morning, my father said, well, I had looked in the window at midnight.

And we were recording in Mount Kisco. We lived in Chappaqua. I was 10 minutes away. But he was concerned when it got to midnight. I wasn't home. So he went to the radio station, looked in the window, and saw all of us in there. He said, OK. Roll back home. So Sandy, I'm curious. I want to back up just a minute because I'm like, wow, this is so great already. But I'm listening to as a young toddler, practically.

You've started with some issues of abandonment. You're a self-proclaimed introvert who's got this perfectionistic bend. You're highly competitive. You've got a tennis coach who's pouring into you and you've got an absolute love of the game. Then you find your jam with some radio. Again, relatively normal upbringing, as you would say. There wasn't alcohol in the home. So bring me into some more of that story. Well, my brother.

who was younger, did develop a drinking problem and was and is an alcoholic, although I'm so proud of him. We've gotten so close in the last 10 years. He's really... made a remarkable recovery. And he's been touched by his past a few times. It's cost him some jobs. But right now, he's 62 years old and he's doing exactly what he should be doing.

in teaching a class for some inmates in Poughkeepsie, New York. Very rewarding for him. He does three or four sessions a year. He's never been happier. He's got a nice home. in the area. And this is about middle of the state of New York. Certainly not New York City. It's about 90 miles north of the city. But yeah, there was no alcohol.

abuse in my immediate family. But the story I like to tell is every July 4th, we go up to Lake George. And my mother's uncle and my mother's aunt actually had a... place in Ticonderoga, New York, right along the lake. And we go up every July 4th and we'd stay for about two weeks. And I remember

couple of times not wanting to go because I was into tennis and it was right in the middle of our summer tennis season. And there were tournaments going on and competition going on. And I really didn't want to. want to go all that much. But again, it was one of those things that everybody did. So you checked it off the list. All right, we'll go. And it was fun. I developed, again, because of the attention I was given, a pretty close relationship with my late uncle.

Although this seems strange now looking back on it, when I graduated from high school, my high school graduation trip was... a journey to Quebec city and, uh, my uncle took me there and, uh, great uncle and, um, We had virtually no interests in common, except we both liked to eat. We both liked to travel, although my travel was kind of limited.

basically to the East Coast and maybe Southeast. You know, my grandparents lived down in Florida. We go down to Sarasota and see them once every couple of years for an extended period of time. On this trip, my great uncle sexually assaulted me. And this went on for several years. I remembered how I tried to rationalize it that it was you know part of growing up and I certainly found during that period of time that

He was an alcoholic and later on passed away, basically drank himself to death. His drinking around me wasn't extreme, but the other behavior obviously was. And I remember thinking, you know, with our family organized the way it was, how could I tell anybody? And there certainly weren't programs at the time, like Alateen might be today, where a young person with some real issues could go for support and talk about.

what had happened. And I find now in Al-Anon that these stories are not unusual at all. In fact, My sponsor went through an almost identical experience, which for better or for worse, he doesn't remember as clearly. He remembers that it happened, but he doesn't remember who the perpetrator or perpetrators were. Well, this went on. for a while and i kept waiting for my parents especially my mother to catch on that something unusual was happening but

Were you putting off anything? Were you giving any indicators that something was amiss? Or how did you think mom should know this by chance? She was so close to him. Okay. She put trust in him and I put trust in him. But again, it got back to the abandonment thing because he was giving me attention. I later found out, in fact, just a few years ago and talking to my brother, same thing happened to him. He resisted. And I don't think.

My great uncle was quite as aggressive. And so he did take no for an answer the first time. And, you know, for years, I'm thinking to myself, what kind of, my brother had the strength. do it and i suspected even before he told me that the scene is something similar to happen to him but but he obviously resisted um of course he had the drinking problem too so

There was dysfunction, but it was middle class, upper middle class level dysfunction. Right. And still that same shame thing is so prevalent. Right. So we're not just coming out of the closet speaking to it.

um have never spoken to it share a similar background don't know don't have a lot of the memories but but solid yes to that but that was it and uh so uh when When I went to school, I actually went to school in upstate New York and was more outgoing. And again, it was the perfect school for me. And I had a great college experience. And I made a lot of friends, many of whom I keep in touch with today.

Met my wife there and did broadcast for three years on the hockey games there, which really got in. It was a valuable experience for me in radio because I did, along with some play-by-play for our hockey program, we were a small school, but we were a Division I hockey program, much like. the university of denver although not nearly as successful but i i did games but we also did a weekly coaches show and it was 30 minutes and on a few occasions uh the uh

main play-by-play guy, couldn't make it to do the show, and I ended up doing the show. I've never done anything like that. I had listened to talk radio growing up in New York, but I had no experience. doing it. And this was a 30 minute coaches show, an interview show. It wasn't one hour or two or three hours or anything like that. But I got through it and I kind of enjoyed it.

The coach gave me a lot of positive feedback. He was kind of almost taken aback that I could carry on a conversation for 30 minutes with him when I had sat in on other shows, but I wasn't really co-hosting. uh, with, uh, with a coach, just the two of us. So, uh, I sent out a million tapes and got a job out here at KOA of all places. You know, most people start at small stations.

towns maybe very far from where they live well denver was colorado one of those square states out west somewhere i didn't know anything about that but koa radio was a big 50 000 watt booming station

Had all the play-by-play of all the teams out here, professional and collegiate. And, you know, what remains today, I think, the most... powerful probably well most well-known uh station in the market so um i got lucky with that uh and i worked my tail off and obviously when i started i was at the bottom but We had six or seven people on radio and TV. And the TV guys did some talk, but they were mostly anchoring the news Monday through Friday.

than on the weekends. But all of them, save for our main TV sports anchor, Ron Cipolla, all of them were play-by-play guys, so they traveled. whether they were doing basketball or baseball or football. And so they put me on the air. They actually had me doing weekend TV. a time or two. So real quick, just for our listeners, Sandy, that don't know, you know, while this sports talk or for those listeners who aren't aware.

You know, Sandy is a renowned voice in Colorado. So wherever you might be listening from, that's a piece of the story. And so when you came out here, were you married at that time? Like, tell me a little bit about your family story. I was not. I came out here in August of 79. I was not married. I actually had two women, one my later wife. I was very close to.

There was one I met in high school, and this was at the start of all these other weird things that were going on. And I was taking a summer school class. with a very famous broadcaster in the in the new york area and the class probably they were 24 25 people in the class and there were probably four or five of us that were pretty serious And then there were 19 or 20 who weren't. But there was one young lady in the class named Adrian.

And I was just drawn to her without knowing anything about her story. And she was just really vivacious and street smart, smart as a whip. She's the only girl in the class. And yet. She was one of the stronger personalities. And I said, you know, whatever she does, she's she's going to be terrific. Well, she had gone through a lot of.

the kind of experiences that some of us go through growing up and really more severe. And she was almost, we both grew up in Westchester County. I don't know that there is. another side of the tracks in westchester county really but her life experience was totally different from mine i mean she had all but had to raise herself um there had been violence in her experience. And I was just drawn to her. And I remember when I really got to know her.

She was about to be married and she was 20 years old. And I don't think she really wanted to get married, but she wanted to get away from the family dysfunction. Well, she ends up not getting married. I remember during the course of the class, she had someone in the class she was kind of close to. But by the end of the class. I remember working up the courage to call her and saying, you know, I'd like to see you again. And there were some ups and downs with that.

And of course, I was in the middle of going to school. This was the summer of 1977. I was going back up to school and she had a job. But we got even, we wrote all the things, you know, back, this was the time when people actually wrote letters back and forth to each other. No email, no texting, nothing like that, obviously. But anyway, we got close and I met Gene in college and we were close. So I'd see those two. Those are the two people I'd see when I go back on vacation.

from Denver to New York. But I had some close friendships out here, mostly industry friendships, but two people really took up for me and advocated for me. Because so many people on our staff traveled, they started putting me on talk shows. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm 21 years old. And they put me on a post-game Broncos show. simply because nobody else wanted to do it. But they sold the hell out of it. And somebody had to do it. And it aired for an hour and a half.

about 45 minutes after every game they did a post game that was about 45 minutes and then they go to what they call bronco talk and i just i was too naive to see any harm in doing it And I did it. And I did it the way I had heard talk shows being done. I was very aggressive, very opinionated. And people out here weren't used to that. That wasn't how talk radio was done at the time.

But at that time, Alan Berg had come into being out here. And Alan did a general talk show show and he very quickly moved over to KLA. And I got to know Alan very well, and Alan was my idol. And Alan remains, to this day, the most talented radio person I've ever been around. He was the type who could show up to do a four-hour show by himself with a National Enquirer.

in his hands, and he'd do four hours on something he had read in the National Enquirer. And it would be entertaining. It would be smart. It would be funny. It would be informative. And he worked nights. He was on right after I, but they ended up putting me on most of the talk shows because I was there. So I do three or four a week. I do Bronco post game on Sundays and Alan Berg would follow my show at.

at night and I come on his show and he'd come on mine. And, um, he was, he was just amazing. So I had a lot of support. Uh, but, uh, It was far away from home. And I later learned that there's probably a reason that my sister lives. To this day in Westchester County, I think she and her husband are moving down to Albuquerque in the fall, but she's lived in Westchester County all her life. My brother's been all over the world. He's a world traveler, but he's working now.

in New York. I was the one who moved far away. So you kind of were the pioneer to get out here. Well, yeah, I was getting, I was getting away, even though I didn't know this, thinking back on it, that's what I was doing. I was getting away from the family dysfunction.

About as far as I could get away from it. 100%. And that takes me back to right where I was headed. So you're reading my mind because I'm thinking, again, the good, the bad, and the ugly. You've got this amazing career kicking off. You're not in the dysfunction.

clearly run away from what was, but for the remaining little bit of time that we have, Tell us more about when did things start to really manifest or become obvious in terms of there's more going on than meets the eye or maybe more of the dynamics of your family that you were going to be dealing with this joint of disease? Well.

The alcoholism was something I always tried to keep a little bit at arm's length, but there was this secret that I had buried for all these years, and I just built into work. I was good at it, but I was a people pleaser too. And with my marriage, it just... There were a combination of events that took place, and I had a 33 marriage. Most all of it was good, but there were certain types of behaviors that I exhibited.

and that were exhibited toward me that consisted of favors that shouldn't have been accepted, either that I was receiving or I was giving out, but that kind of were because... I'll speak for myself. I was in a box checking mode. 30 years old, it was time to get married. Four years later, it's time to have first kid.

Three or four years later, it's time to have another one because that's how my family had done, right? Right. Except we had two kids, not three. And actually, when it all came to a head. In 2015, 2016, I was juggling all kinds of balls in the air, many of them unhealthy. And the Broncos had just won the Super Bowl and they had a parade downtown.

I don't know, maybe a million people at the parade. And I was kind of in the middle of it. We were broadcasting down there and I just loved it. And I was on top of the world. It couldn't have been happier. And I was also mentioned of having an affair at the time. And in April of 2016, it all came to a hit. And I was covering the final four down in Houston. And I remember getting there the first day and feeling all this anxiety over.

what was going on. And I didn't really understand it, except that I just was anxious all the time. The only time I wasn't anxious was when I was on the air. I was on the air, as it turned out, for about 15 hours by myself over four days down there. Wow. That wasn't healthy either. Although I did, I got through those shows. I don't know how. And I remember the first day I was there looking out the window. And of course it sealed.

shut it's not like i can lift the window up and jump out but looking down and thinking what it would feel like and then going out of the hotel and And walking to places and thinking about how easy it would be for me to just take five or six steps onto the street and have somebody run over me. And those thoughts occurred to me. Really?

Then when I came home, it just all fell apart. And I basically had what would have been called, I guess, back in the day, an nervous breakdown because everything just dissolved. And for three or four months, I was totally dysfunctional. And during that time, I got into Al-Anon and I got some other treatment that I really needed. slowly began to make my way back. But the one indispensable element in my life was the program. And that always had to come first. And it still does to this day.

a lot of the trauma i went through i i had to come out with all that stuff but the one place i felt safe was to do it was in recovery um in alan And I could speak my truth. It's the first time I'd ever spoken my truth. I was a man of a thousand masks. I had a mask for every social occasion, professional occasion, personal occasion. But now...

just reigned it full circle. Now, you know, I've never had as close a relationship with my daughter as I do now. Since I've been on the program, my son took his life. I think he was going through a lot of the things that I was going through for a time. And I had those impulses. And he unfortunately acted on his end.

You know, that probably didn't help our marriage. It wasn't the sole cause of our splitting up. But, you know, something like that, I hear either strengthens marriage or destroys them. Maybe more often than not, it destroys. I mean, it's just, it's something you don't get over. And I know you had that sort of thing in your life, obviously. But I remember sitting next to you.

I remember sitting next to you the night that you shared the news in our Al-Anon group. Yeah, I remember. I lost it. I mean, I just was sobbing for you. I couldn't comprehend. that level of loss. And, you know, I remember then being one of those people in that room sitting in the back, sobbing my guts out, not wanting to even open my mouth, but. You know, a friend in our program shared that we don't keep secrets anymore and, you know, coaxed me into sharing my tragic news. And.

I remember another gal in our group coming up and hugging me after that saying, you know, and telling her I didn't want to be a part of this group. Like there's a group of people who have lost loved ones because of this addiction. Sandy, I'm just so sorry. I'm just so sorry. And that will forever be, I know, a connection that we share and that we believe. Well, I remember after that meeting, even many times before I shared that story.

How many people came up to me, male and female, and said, please share more? And a good friend of mine in the program has told me over the years, not that you share in literally every meeting you're at. in but if you don't share you're not really there and i mean it doesn't literally mean share every single meeting but if you don't have an impulse to do it

You're not really in the program. Yeah. And you're doing service when you share. Exactly. So what kinds of things of service do you do outside of your professional? Because we all love to dial in. And listen to your program, especially when you know the abs are winning. Oh, yeah. Because you're at all the games. Yeah, yeah. Well, almost all the games. Actually, we had somebody else much younger.

who did all the traveling. And I remember doing it in 2001, the last time they won the cup before this year. And I was 44 at the time. And by the time the playoffs were over. We've been traveling throughout the playoffs and I was spent and I was 44 at the time. And so I was just as glad to have somebody else do that. But we did do postgame shows this year.

After every game, immediately after every game, we did a post game. And that was as exhilarating an experience as I've ever had. And I've covered Super Bowls and I've been a Stanley Cup. final game sevens here, and nothing was better. None of that was better than this year. I was at the Super Bowls, all the Broncos Super Bowls, save for the one, and I wasn't. in denver in 1977 but i've been to every one of the other ones and uh it

It still wasn't as good or any better than the Avalanche winning it this year. So I've had those experiences again, and I've understood. more about my business and how it's about people and not about numbers or straight analysis. It's about people. And that's the gift that I bring because I... been here for 43 years. So I got to know just about everybody there is to know. No kidding. No kidding. You have an incredible journey and story.

Sandy, one of the things that you spoke to earlier, and again, I'm just looking to bring some hope and some opportunities or resources to some listeners, but that whole propensity to work. And work and work and work. I know it well. It's absolutely been a part of my story. And I remember. We're great employees, aren't we? It's true. We are such good employees.

I remember a counselor that my former spouse and I saw along the way, and she was a recovering addict herself, which I didn't know going into it. But she'd written a book that just captivated me, and it kind of spoke to this, and it's called The Last Addiction. And Sharon Hirsch is her name. She's a phenomenal counselor in this area. But it essentially dials down to the fact that we all have something. You know, there's an addiction of some sort. Is it food? Is it money? Is it?

pornography? Is it alcohol addiction? You know, whatever. Is it workaholism? Because somewhere along the way, we're looking for that thing to fill us. There's a void. I just, I put that resource out there. I've reached out to Sharon. I've invited her to be a guest on our show as well. Would be a great honor. But what would you speak to in terms, again, you've mentioned Al-Anon. It's been a tremendous resource for both you and me.

What are some other things that have helped you through, again, the grieving process, post-divorce? There's so many heartaches in your story. And you're at such a place now that... You know, you're sharing it without that emotional bend that we all know is in there. Oh, yeah. So what are some of the things that have given you hope along the way? Well.

Knowing that Ryan's with me every day, I've mentioned that trip I took to St. George recently. I found one of his travel bags that he got in high school. His high school team at Cherry Creek had played a preseason game in Las Vegas and they all got these big travel bags. And I took the travel bag with me to St. George and still has his name tag. So, and I've got a pouch that I wear in my right pocket every day, no matter where I go. And he's with me that way. And my daughter's with me that way.

Two, my daughter is flourishing. We have a close relationship. But the thing that brought me so much hope was that at his memorial service, which was here, there were at least 50 people from Kansas, most of whom we never knew. You're kidding. That he had connected to and that felt it was important to drive eight or nine hours. Had he gone to school out there? What was his connection to Kansas? He went to Kansas in Lawrence. And he worked at an athletic equipment company. Okay, great.

You know, we'd go back to Kansas basketball games every year. That was kind of a thing we did for six or seven years. And it was really the last time I saw him in February of 2017. We had gone to. a Kansas game and they always won because they always went at home and I thought about him this year when Kansas won the national title. They won one the year before he started in Kansas, the year before his freshman year.

But we went to games every year and they won the national championship this year. And he would have loved that. He would have loved that. But. Yeah, he worked and lived on the Missouri side of the border and on the Kansas side, moved around a lot. uh i i had no idea that he had the range of friends from different backgrounds and so on uh that he had so i know he touched a lot of people I've also learned, you know, from experience that you and others have shared that these things.

The worst thing you can do is get into that tendency to shame and blame, whether it's directed at other people or directed at yourself. My daughter has come out of it the healthiest of the bunch. She's just great. And when we got word of his suicide, it was right at the time of her graduation at Colorado State. And, you know, and yet she's. found a way to to progress uh in advance and as uh as healthy a person as anybody i know physically emotionally

psychologically. She's got the perfect attitude for work. She's brilliant. I always said my son knew far more about sports than I do and was into it and was into personalities. And he and a good friend of mine, who's been a friend of mine for more than 40 years here in Denver, and it's the best journalist I've ever known in my life. They've been there for me.

I found that people change. People change. My best friend was married a year before Jane and I got married. And I had known his wife, Helen, for six, seven years because they had been together all that time from when I first got to town and got to know him. And I've noticed a change in her. And I know that she was affected by Ryan's suicide. We've got to be really close in the healthiest of ways. And she sort of checks in on me without seeming intrusive.

But I know that in her own way, she checks in on me. And she's changed. And she was great. But she's one of those black and white personalities. There's a much gray area. And you know where she stands on everything. But we've developed a relationship where. We both we talk about this. She's a big sports fan. And again, she's another one who knows far more about sports than I do. But she'll check in with me and we'll talk about.

95% of the time, things that have nothing to do with sports. And she's opened up to me. It's just been wonderful. And he's still my best friend. And he's gone through some health issues recently. And I've been able to reciprocate and be there for him and drive him places. when he's not really in great shape to drive as much anymore. And we go to football games together all the time during the fall, whether they be CU games, Air Force games, CSU games. We go to games all the time together.

It's, you know, my circle of friends is just as large, but I mean, they're people I really love and I interact with every day. I'm a sports psychologist, performance psychologist. We've developed a close friendship and we've been through. He lost his brother to a gang shooting at an early age in his life. He went through a divorce recently that's very similar to the one I went through. And he made some mistakes. But, you know, he's...

I know he's there for me all the time. And a friend of ours recently lost a child who was about Ryan's age to suicide, who was the most stable person in the family, seemingly. And so now I can be there for him. Well, that is one of the things I'm hoping to just get out there. And I'm sad to hear how prevalent it is. I know that the statistics are off the chart.

You know, I just want to start to close this out, Sandy, and thank you hardly seems an adequate response. You know, when someone is so open and vulnerable to sharing these really difficult pieces of. of the journey as you have with us today. So when I look at, you know, the way that we tend to paint this picture perfect world, whether it's between social media.

I just remember hearing somewhere along the way, it may well have been in one of our meetings, the disservice that we do by trying to compare my insides to someone else's outside story. And if I've learned anything through this journey, Sandy, it's that everyone has a story. Yeah. So, you know, there's been another famous media personality. If I can share for just a quick, hot second, Kathy Saban from Nine News, you know, shared.

really just her own wake-up call with regard to to the skin cancer and she shared some very graphic photos of that you know again just in an effort to urge others to to seek help which

You know, if I'm honest, that's where I really kind of want to land the plane today, Sandy, is to say, how can we point others to those resources of help? What would you want to say real briefly to that end? Again, for either side of the street, either to the addict. you know, or someone struggling in that place of, you know, suicidal ideation, that desperate place or to a codependent parent or someone who's walking in that side of the street. Anything that you'd want to share as we wrap it up.

You're not alone. People have their stuff. Everybody has their stuff. And it may be deeply buried, but it's there. People may hide it, but it's there. And know that you come forward, you're inspiring somebody else to do the same thing. And speak your truth. Don't be afraid to speak your truth. open yourself up and trust other people. And I came into recovery a very distrustful person. Now I have special friends, you among them. I know I can trust in any setting.

I know you have helped me and and I hope I've helped you. But I just I treasure my life now and I'm. as happy now as I've ever been. And I know I was lucky to have Ryan for 27 years. And that was a blessing. I still am in touch with many of his friends who live around here. Even though I know I'm in places now where he should be, I know that... He's there. He's there. Amen. Well, you've helped by sharing today, Sandy. And again, your heart and your passion, your vulnerability, your.

excellence for all the things that you do and the ways that you share have been a gift to me, to everyone in our rooms, and now to this audience at large. So again, I thank you so, so much for your story and for your time today. I'm going to wrap it up by saying God bless. If you're out there, you're listening, reach out, find a friend. Don't do this alone. You're not alone, as Sandy said. Thanks again. Thanks, Jerry.