Embody your Life with Anne Pitman

Michele Lawrence
You're listening to this as yoga therapy. I'm your host, Michele Lawrence. And I've had the opportunity to interview many of those who are making a difference at the intersections of yoga and health. And I'm here to share with you their stories and conversations. Thanks for listening. 

In today's episode I interviewed Anne Pitman.  With over 35 years of experience, Anne has cultivated a practice of yoga therapy inquiry to help people return to their body and embody their life. She's the director of the School of embodied yoga therapy in Ottawa, Canada, which is an 800 hour plus school, marrying traditional wisdom and evidence based yoga practice in service to life altering events. And she's also recently come on board as a faculty member at inner peace yoga therapy, which I'm super excited about. As an in clinic yoga therapist at the Ottawa Integrative Cancer Center. She sees people from diagnosis throughout the cancer care continuum, working with the inevitable shock, cancer related PTSD, anxiety, fear, fatigue, side effects of treatment and fear of recurrence through compassionate inquiry and yoga practice. Much of her work is in accompanying people as they face into their dying time. In addition, she is a founding member of the Ottawa integrative mental health collective seeking to support holistic mental health care in the capitol region. Her extensive study of the intelligence of the autonomic nervous system, and the deep recognition of human connection through co regulation towards self regulation, are the foundation of this work. Anne it's so great to talk with you today.

Anne Pitman
it's my pleasure, my honor, thank you.

Michele Lawrence
I love so many of the things that you have included there in your bio and the way in which you phrased them. So I'm eager to get into our conversation about them. And while we could go into a lot of different directions with our conversation today, based on really your breadth of experience, we're going to focus a bit on cancer and grief, which are two separate and also related subjects, obviously. But first, let's have you tell us, in your own words, a bit about yourself. How did you start on your yoga path? And given all that you're doing now and you've done in the past, what are you most passionate about?

Anne Pitman 
Wow, I'm thinking back the beginnings of yoga. Where does that start? I'd actually remember my first yoga class. Well, it's probably one of those memories that just stay so alive in us. Yeah, I remember coming to yoga practice. And I think this is why I continued to be honest, she said, it was just a beautiful class. But what really grabbed me what really had the hair stand up on the back of my neck was toward the end of the class, she said, Okay, well, it's time to die. And what I couldn't believe that there was a practice that virtually insisted that we bring this into our awareness, this impermanence in this contract that we have with life, and it pulled me right from the very beginning and blessings to joy wherever she is on so many decades ago. And as we went, I realized that that's not always the case, in yoga, that we that we treat shavasana as a death practice. But it really was something that served my love of life, as it turns out, and because I'm such a mover, I've been a mover my whole life, I didn't really come to yoga for exercise. That wasn't the doorway, for me. But instead it was, I'd say, it was like the common medicine that it provided. So it was it was really nervous system work initially and place to find refuge, in the practice and in myself. And I suppose that continues, really many people think that I'm just so very calm, but it really is the practice that's shown. I always say, you know, people are like, Oh, this is so common. I'm like, You should really talk to my children. But there it is. And I think the passion for me now as I've gone through yoga, and course yoga therapy and come to so much work, good work in that places, what yoga provides us a remembrance of remembering of who we are and our deep connections to each other and to this life that's entrusted to us and the seasons and all that surround us our home place and certainly impermanence and I'd say that's, that continues to be my passion.

Michele Lawrence  
So well said. Yeah, and I'd love to some other time get together with you over a cup of coffee. or whatever and talk more about some of those first experiences, because I feel such resonance with what you just shared.

Anne Pitman
Mm hmm. Well, that's a nice thought for the future.

Michele Lawrence 
Yeah, right, whenever that might be yes. And I have to say to that I love your website, it offers such a wealth of information, not only about you, but it also includes a lot of very useful information and tools, many of them free. So thank you for that. Maybe you can just tell us about the practices section of your website and what folks can find as tools and resources there.

Anne Pitman
Oh, sure. Well, thanks, Michelle. It's sweet to know, it's, I never look at it. Of course, I'm lucky that my, one of my sons helped me and his wife with that website, they're just brilliant. Yeah, the the practices there, there are some that that will, I think they're all free, actually. And there's a meditation practice that seems to be quite central, I would say in my work with regard to embodiment, you know, meditation with regard to coming into the body, noticing the body, I think there's a rolling practice there, which is also one of my favorite practices with regard to playing with patterns and nervous system entry, let's say kind of knocking on the door in that way. And I think the other practices that are there were created, I gave myself a little bit of a challenge. And that was to design practices for home use, that you could, I suppose, arguably considered to be full practices, you know, they have each have forward bend, the backward bend, twist, that kind of thing. And with the idea that 30 minutes is what I thought people might come to, in their busy days. Now, this was well before the pandemic, and once that pandemic rose up, that's when those practices went on the website. And so I hope that they're of use in these difficult times. Hmm,

Michele Lawrence
that's great. So let's dive into your yoga therapy and cancer work a bit. So how did you start working with individuals facing cancer? And what does your approach look like? What does it encompass?

Anne Pitman 
Yeah, cancer. That's a big world, hey, yep. I think it's always very surprising for folks, when they come over that threshold, you know, that it's got its own language and its own challenges, of course, but they seem to be specific to the cancer world too. And, well, I think I came in, as many yoga therapists do when someone just asked me to do it. And that was the beginning of deep education in cancer. And I'm just so fortunate that at that time, when someone asked me to consider working in the field, that there were a couple folks, some dougald and Sarah here in Ottawa, that were setting up an integrative clinic. So I was lucky to sit on the board, and to develop a clinic that actually is very integrative, that where we, the yoga therapist, and the doctor, and the nurse practitioner, and the acupuncturist, etc, all sit at the same table. And so our work, we share records, etc. And our work just has that beautiful foundation for folks to come into. So that was really the beginning. Now, as it turns out, and as life is, it wasn't long after that I started to work in cancer, that my husband was diagnosed with cancer. And that just puts you in a whole new place of understanding, I guess, and see was, at the time, given two years to live, it's been 16 We're well in the bounty of more time with him. And it's been our deep good fortune to have him with us as long as as he has been. And he's, he's doing great. So in the way of working with cancer, you know, as you said, and as you spoke at the beginning, thank you for that it was I do work from the beginning to whatever the end of it is. And for some people that's, you know, remission and fantastic. And it's a funny place, though, that people think it's a relief, and it's over place and often. You know, it's it's got its own special challenge with regard to how do I walk into my life, again, with this possibility of occurrence. But much of the work really is in the diagnosis place. There's I work a lot with diagnosis sharp. That's what is referred to me quite a bit. And working with course with side effects as we can and as we do in the field, which is tremendous. And I do spend quite a lot of time in the ending of days too. So I'm very fortunate to walk with people toward the ending of their days and accompany them in the best way I can and yoga is really useful. They're entirely the spiritual nature of Sometimes, but also just the subtle practices and the relief that can give to someone who's in bed and really working with anxiety because of course, we do live in a death phobic, at least I do. And I'm guessing it's quite a lot the same where you are. And so there's so much anxiety. And I guess I would say, I work with anxiety, because I don't think there's anyone who's come into my office that isn't anxious, whether it's anxious about a particular treatment, or what this could mean, or speaking to their family or coming to dying in a place that doesn't really have a deep regard for that time. I think of it as accompaniment, it's really being with someone as they come to all of these different thresholds and become aware of what's happening in them. Because, you know, there so much has happened before they got there, too, of course. So they're often coming in with just a fast lived experience, that could include a tremendous amount of joy, but I'm guessing a lot of sorrow and lived experience of trauma or injuries or, or what have you. And here they are in this place. And it's a really shattering experience, as you know, to be diagnosed, whether whether it's a serious cancer or not, it's, it has a, let's say it D patterns, you pretty quickly from your life, you know, things have to happen. And often there's a speed of entry into treatment that's difficult to manage. And there's so much that yoga can bring to this place, not the least of which is just allowing for all to be heard and seen. Not so much on the place of how do we change this? How can we make room for it? And how do we practice with it? I would say, Well, yeah, so in cancer, like, of course, in all conditions, yoga therapists find some sort of selves working, and we have this common devotion to Him signed, you know, it's translated, of course, as do no harm, which is beautifully shared amongst us and by the medical community, too. But this brings us to safety. And when we're working on cancer treatment, there's such a lot to know, and a lot to pay attention to. And, you know, of course, depending on each unique person and their unique experience with cancer. So for example, someone I'm working with may be on a drug protocol that affects their bone health, or their bone density. And so I need to know how to safely curate a practice with this in mind and make sure that they have support from other diagnostic experts, like a physiotherapist, for example. Or maybe it's true, and it's true in many cancers, that after unnecessary surgery, they may be more prone to lymphedema, I really need to know about this, and I need to know the signs and have them if at all possible, see a lymphedema specialist. So there's so much training and education needed. And, of course, a yoga therapist has to be so plugged into research and hopefully be part of a referral network and making sure that all of this integrative work is accessible, because we know really, it's not yet and but I think, you know, in the next year, I would say there's going to be a lot of changes and increased standards in terms of training and being sure that yoga therapists really have good support and good training very much like what you're offering at your school. So the sense of safety that, of course, is physical and importantly, so, but we know it's also emotionally important. And you know, it's really funny in the last couple of years, you know, with all we know about trauma and trauma informed work, but and in the last couple of years, I've been so guided by Satya and Astaire, that there's this both this truthfulness but there's also this idea of not stealing, I find very compelling especially when I'm working in palliative care. So that I am as sensitive and aware as possible to what someone's experiencing and being a faithful witness to that. But at the same time, not taking their experience away from them. I'm not stealing it I'm I'm letting it be as it is but bringing the most nourishing practice possible to them as as part of a palliative team that there's enough silence and support and interoception to really allow someone to come to the realization it was not easy in a death phobic culture to do this, but to come to the realization that you're approaching your dying days. And we don't want to take that from anyone and that important wrestle, but instead company and bring practice to them, you know, best we can.

Michele Lawrence
Yeah. And having worked with individuals who have experienced cancer as well, some of them who are no longer here with us, right. And there's a special role for yoga, like you say. And I know, as a young yoga therapist, I was a little bit afraid, right afraid of working with this population. And I imagine that part of the work you do and what you train others in is kind of allaying some of those fears for the yoga therapist to so that you can recognize how encompassing the work is, and how soft it can be at times too.

Anne Pitman
Really well said, Well, there's so much labor in it for sure. With regard to how do you become more available as a yoga therapist for, for all that comes in, and I think this is, it's such important work that we have resources for ourselves, of course, and we have our own practice. And we have some kind of peer support in that way. Because most of the work, I would say, of yoga therapy is working with people who are experiencing some difficulty or some kind of suffering or life shattering. And so how do we do that? How do we come to that without some shutting ourselves off from ourselves? Or from the other person? How do we maintain connection in that place where things are hard? And, yeah, that's it's such important work, I think, and, and luckily, you know, one of my passions is integration, as you know, and so I depend on others to, and I'm probably the head of referrals. I'd love for people who are walking in cancer to have a really strong web of folks, I love to have them seeing lots of people and making sure that they have what they need, and then includes, of course, their family. Right? So we're not, we're certainly hoping that to mend or cultivate this strong connection in their lives with their home place and their, their people, and including the ones who have come before them. So

Michele Lawrence
yeah, I think that's important for yoga therapists to hear, you know, the fact that you are part of a team, oftentimes, when it comes to providing care for people, and also part of a web that includes the family of the client or the patient. So thanks for for saying that.

Anne PItman
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, I think that's really so true. And I'm sure you've experienced this too, as well as many practitioners is that sometimes people are coming to you, because they are trying to protect their family, they're not sure what burden might be, that word gets used a lot, I find people imagine that they, their disease, or anxiety, whatever it might be, is a burden to others. And that sometimes this is just a wonderful place to start, you know, that I, I'm just not sure it's true. Because I end up working with the family to who of course want to be included, and want to hear what's really happening for that person. So often, it's such a portal of rebuilding what we've lost, or maybe releasing the myths of our of our times, that we're supposed to be independent, and we're supposed to be 100% positive all the time, and all these things that seem to be required of cancer patients, which I find fun mixing, you know, it's really, it's a lot to all of a sudden be diagnosed with something and then for some reason, you aren't meant to feel sad or angry or depressed or any of those things. And I do think that we can do better for them with in terms of allowing that to be held, you know, that we can hold that to them. And if we can hang out long enough in that place. More comes and or aren't we lucky that that's true, and that other things rise up? But often it's really hearing what hasn't been welcome, first in themselves in their lives, what are sometimes they imagine they're doing it wrong, doing cancer wrong, which is so hard to hear and it just produces this intense loneliness I find and so anything I can do to support and reassure and remember and, and then bring practice to that allows them to feel less alone in that.

Michele Lawrence 
It's great. And am I also correct that you have a new book coming out on yoga and cancer and a new retreat? For people beyond cancer treatment, can you tell us more about those things?

Anne Pitman
This is this is the culmination of so many years. And I'm certainly not alone in it. So this is a book that's to be published in the spring by handspring, publishing. And it's edited with Lee Leibel, who's a colleague of mine yoga therapist, too. And it includes the stories of 40 Yoga therapists who are working in cancer, whether they're working in hospitals, or clinics or in studios. So it's a wonderful, collaborative effort that shows just how yoga therapy can show up in integration and for people who are working in different ways. And it's an exciting piece, because what we really insisted upon was that the patient's voice is central. It's wonderful to have such a text that would help us remember much beyond theory, that it's wonderful to have all this groundwork and all this wonderful research in yoga therapy and cancer, and the trainings that we have with regard to trauma and deepening our understanding of cancer itself. But it's what shows up when you are with these people who are so I want to say unmasked, you know, certainly they they've gone through the diagnosis already. And it's the there can be such beautiful and sometimes very uneasy vulnerability and honesty, and it's definite privilege to work with these folks. So I'm really pleased that the book has gone in this way that we're kind of seeing into these rooms, where people have such compassionate practice, and the beautiful attunement of their ears and their eyes and their hearts, to these folks that are walking through cancer, because we could easily be on the other side of that, couldn't we, we don't have this idea that, that there's a wrongness in it, that they've done something wrong, which is another thing that people with cancer sometimes carry? And how do we dissuade that? And allow us a deep, rich humanity to support them? What's the title of the book, yoga therapy across the cancer care continuum? And it's it's international, there's folks, yoga therapists in it from all over the world. That's pretty exciting. We're really thrilled to that it will be I think, published towards June, I would say, Okay, wonderful. Yeah.

Michele Lawrence
And what about the retreat? That's for people beyond cancer treatment, informed by cancer at Hollyhock? Can you say more about that?

Anne Pitman 
Yeah, that that one's kind of like a light in the distance. I mentioned it, because it's, I mean, maybe there's a chance it'll be in person. And that would be so lovely. Hollyhock is a gorgeous retreat center in Canada, on the west coast, it's on an island, Cortes. And they've got just just the sweetest little place there. And we're hoping next September to gather some folks who are finished treatment and are wondering how, how this experience of cancer might inform them as they go forward. Because it's, it's often too soon to talk about this, when when we're working with people who are right in the midst of it, you know, that, Oh, there's all kinds of gifts from this. I mean, it's just, it's just not appropriate, really, and, but after treatment, there's often a time where we can just slow things down a little bit and wonder about what we've been through and acknowledge the body and all its come through and wonder a little bit about how we might allow that experience to direct us a little bit. So the idea that these experiences, although so difficult, many times can have the effect of shifting our perspective sometimes or what we want to bring ourselves to our practice, and so that I think it'll be a really sweet time, if it's possible for us to gather. But in the meantime, there's, of course, myself and my colleagues all over the world are holding zoom sessions for those people with cancer. And so that's an ongoing scene.

Michele Lawrence
So let's shift gears a bit and talk a bit more about grief. And as I mentioned earlier, grief is separate and also related to cancer. So how does grief relate to those you're working with who are experiencing cancer? First of all, she kind of give us that panorama, if you will.

Anne Pitman
Okay, let's see, let's give it a try. I may have to see if we can widen the definition of grief perhaps it's it's maybe it's wise to begin with grief illiteracy, that it's something that we are coming to more and more in our culture in these times. But it's been so that it's been misunderstood, I would say and it's often understood as a You know, a sadness or a heart pain or a succinct time that one would go through and get over. And I'm hoping that that's no longer the case that our understanding has shifted so entirely. But I would include so much more in grief, because it just doesn't tend to show up by itself. It doesn't to the sadness or deep pain of loss. While that can be the entry in the response, initially, I've never been in a room where love wasn't also there, that they seem to be twins or companions, or one comes in first and then the next or something, but they seem to be definitely stitched together. And we, our understanding of grief could even expand to the idea that it's a skillfulness. Actually, that is something that needs to be learned. That grief has a way of showing us something that can't otherwise be seen, just get through the day, get dinner on the table way that it kind of elevates what is unseen. And those things is just how impermanent it all is, which is not always a people don't receive this, like, Oh, that's good news. But there's something about it that deepens us. And I would even suggest that deepens our connection with our life and deepens our connection with each other. The pandemic, I think, is actually shown us that too, that, you know, we seem to be in something together, not, it's not identical. And in a web of connection, we're not all experiencing the same thing at the same time. So some folks might be, you could say, taken down by their experience of whatever it is, and other people can rise up at that time, and how do we accompany people when things are just too hard. And so our understanding of grief is so important, when we work with anxiety, that oftentimes anxiety seems to be woven in there too. And really, underneath it all can be a fear of death. So it's very hard to separate these things apart. But certainly when people come in, with a diagnosis of cancer, and even in that smaller understanding of loss a lot, there's so much I mean, just in that moment, that's the at least their what they know what's going to happen tomorrow as lost their identity, their how they thought their life was gonna go. Perhaps they lose their job, or it all begins there. And this sense of grief that comes in, it's not often talked about or recognized. But honestly, it's so amazing to wonder about it with people. Because when it's recognized, there can be that softening. You know, just like if, you know, if you happen to be angry, and someone says, oh, seem so angry, and that in itself, just the acknowledgment of it can be so softening and allow people to kind of sit in in something a little bit bigger. And I would even say maybe we could think of yoga as a way of making room for more and grief being thought and the aliveness that is also in grief. Grief can be the stimulus really to reaching out to others for help, or being able to see something that you didn't see before. Often people who have gone through cancer, they have a different way of walking and a different way of hearing and seeing afterwards that allows them to see other people's suffering in a different way and, and to bring themselves to it. So it's, for me, it's very human making grief. And it allows us to practice with endings and practice with impermanence, that allow us to live authentically and compassionately. But also to come to if it's true that we're mortal. Pretty sure that's still the case, that we come to our ending of days, not necessarily peacefully, but with awareness and with a willingness to wrestle with it and to find a company meant and help each other in that way to, you know, the thing that certainly shows up when people are in a state of grief is how surprising and painful physically painful it can be. Oh, my gosh, and how, you know, as as many of us find in yoga, this thing seemed to land in particular places you know, and often with grief, it often lands in the throat or the chest that can be a heaviness or intense pulling down or sometimes people feel it in the stomach too. But often those areas kind of central. We certainly, gosh, I can't think of a better practice with regard to how can we come to those areas that are expressing grief or You could say holding grief or showing up compassionately with breath practice with movement practice allows us to tend to the grief, I would say nourish the grief rather than try to get rid of it, like, bring good food to it, which for me is certainly movement and breath and acknowledgement and compassion.

Michele Lawrence
So that's obviously focal for folks who are going through cancer. And it just seems so relevant to the times that we're in right now to with the pandemic, and not only the literal loss of life, so many who are gone due to COVID, but also the myriad of other losses, right, that we've all experienced. So there's just so much grief, I think, as a human being on the planet right now. And the way in which you've described the approach to it. It just sounds so nurturing, and healing and supportive. You've used the word accompany many times. I think that's a wonderful one. Is there any other I would say, shared truth? What else can we sort of lean into as it pertains to yoga and grief right now, in particular, since it's such so prevalent?

Anne Pitman
It's such a great question I like it's akin to asking what was being asked of us really, what does grief ask us? What does the pandemic ask of us? Yeah, what does dying ask of us? What does cancer asking us?

Michele Lawrence
And what does life ask of us? Right?

Anne Pitman
Indeed, and it often is some kind of tending to and wondering about and that we keep mystery in the mix a little bit too, you know, that we keep the questions in mind or the wondering foremost, as we come toward these questions of what does it ask of us and that it doesn't become work? Not sure if that's really well said doesn't, that allows for more to come forward and, and to remember together the wealth of our humanity, and this earth that provides that we find some for myself anyway, a prayerful way to remember our humble approach toward things like grief, you'll often find me by the river here, I, I work with wool and fabric a lot. And when there's leftovers, those are probably the most potent part of the project. And so I'll be tying making prayer ties on the river to remember the the people that I'm walking with, and I'm seeing that are coming into my office and all those who are absolutely not coming into the office and all those good folks who are bringing their good work to people who are suffering. Yeah, that we bring practice, I do think that this is at the heart of yoga is a tune ourselves to bring awareness to what we're to be able to see what we're really in, to be willing to see maybe, but also to practice the best we can to find to cultivate more availability, more awareness, more place, I suppose more willingness to be with what life is offering us from moment to moment.

Michele Lawrence
So nice, everything that you've shared, and I feel somewhat accompanied by you right now, even in this conversation, right? So thank you for that. And I'm going to get to the last question here, which is the one I always ask at the end of the interview. And that has to do with your own personal practice. You've talked to us about the importance of what that means, in various situations. We think it's really important to in our training programs, and what we do at inner peace yoga therapy. We think that as a yoga therapist, like that comes first your own practice before you're able to work with others. So I'm curious what your personal practice looks like, Do you have a daily sadhana? And yeah, what does it look like?

Anne Pitman
Yes, practice intentional practice. I feel like there's to at least two practices I come to on each day and one is on my mat on my blankets, which luckily, I have a body that insists upon us. It's not possible for me to be comfortable and fluid and accessible without yoga practice. So I'm happy to bring myself there and two cents into coaches and what might be needed and what needs to be tended to and for me movement is usually comes first some kind of rolling practice that warms me up to a place of physical almost some days it's more restorative for sure, but that tends to come toward breath practice and For me, some kind of yielding, exhalation practice or alternate nostril breath will stand to me my favorites and then leading, of course into meditation where on my good days I, I sit with all that's come before me the people who've come before me and the ones that are yet to come and see if I can bring some awareness to, I guess Tong Len is my central practice of meditation to breathe with those who are suffering and to offer compassion out into the world that way and, and then maybe it spirals me back into movement. The second practice that I find really useful is actually my clinical practice, and over the years, developed a practice that I would say, helps me to, you know, remember myself and my client too, and find a way to practice before they come some way of of, I don't know if I would say releasing what I'm carrying, but making room for them in a walkthrough, yeah, movement or breath practice or meditation, sometimes chanting or humming to tune up my nervous system a bit. And but the practice that I find most useful is a practice that I do when I'm with a client. And probably like yourself very, it's very easy for me to come into someone else's experience, sense, probably self selected in this profession to in that kind of sensitivity, I guess. And, but I find, it's very useful for me to loop. So when I'm attending to their breath, noticing how it is for them, that I loop back to myself, and I noticed my own breath for a certain amount of time, or when they're speaking about what's happening for them, I'm hopefully dedicated also to noticing how that's affecting me. And so there's this kind of looping that happens in the practice, I think that really, really helps me to be as present as possible, and to be as available as possible on and of course afterwards, what is the the practice that sends them on their way and in such a good way? Maybe a prayerful way and, and that allows you to come back into the present moment, which is, of course, what we're offering in all of our practices, how do we come back to this present moment when your client has found their way back to their home place? And, and we find again, our own breath and our own rootedness and find the beauty in our walk home or in the shining eyes of the nurse who's also in the room. And so, yeah, this before, during an actor practice has become pretty important to me, clinically.

Michele Lawrence
Well, it's been so great speaking with you today. And thank you so much. I also know that you've got a new year long course for yoga practitioners entitled a year to breathe, practicing grief, endings, love of life in our last breath. And I'll include the link for that and, and your website as well in the show notes so that folks can access that anything you want to say about that, before we close? Can people jump in now?

Anne Pitman
I haven't started it yet. This is something that's come over the last few years with working so much with people who are dying is how do we practice toward that from a yogic point of view, and practicing with those of us who are really interested in that path. So that will be coming probably in the springtime. So there's lots of time with that. So I'm cooking it up. It's on the front burner now. And I'm happy to say so. But I also want to not let you go without thanking you so much for your your time and your your willingness to hold other people up and to bring yoga therapies, understandings to such a wide audience. And so it's been really a great honor to be on the other side of this conversation. I hold you in such high regard. Michele.

Michele Lawrence
Oh, it's my pleasure. And I really look forward to carrying on with you as a colleague in the future.

Anne Pitman
Yeah, I'm really excited. We're getting together pretty soon, I think. Wow. Okay.

Michele Lawrence
Thanks a lot.

Anne Pitman
Okay. Take good care of yourself. You too.

Michele Lawrence
If you'd like to learn more about who we are and what we do, visit us at inner peace yoga therapy.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai