Breathing Deeply with Brandt Passalacqua

Michele Lawrence
You're listening to this is yoga therapy. I'm your host, Michele Lawrence. And I've had the opportunity to interview many of those who are making a difference at the intersections of yoga and health. And I'm here to share with you their stories and conversations. Thanks for listening. In today's episode, I interviewed Brent passalacqua. Brandt is the founder, director and teacher at breathing deeply yoga and meditation school. He's been enjoying yoga and the healing arts since 2001. After overcoming obesity, and a life threatening auto immune illness, his personal journey serves as an inspiration to countless others, and informs his compassionate, humorous and down to earth teaching style. It's great to have you on the podcast today. Brant.

Brandt Passalacqua
Thanks so much for having me, Michelle.

Michele Lawrence
So can we start by having you share with our listeners a bit more about yourself, if you could tell us a bit more about your personal journey with yoga that led you to where you are today?

Brandt Passalacqua
Sure. Well, before I got into any of this stuff, I was a musician had never done any yoga hadn't really heard of it. I didn't really know anybody who had it. That's pretty typical. I'm 50. So that was a while ago, I was in my 20s. And then, unfortunately, I suddenly got an autoimmune disease. It was an autoimmune disease where your body attacks its own red blood cells very rare, and ended up in the hospital. And I got really sick. I actually died on the table. And I was in intensive care for weeks and in the hospital for quite a long time. And then I finally got out when I got out was actually September 10 2001. So I woke up one morning to 911. So I was feeling very fortunate that I was not in the hospital at that moment. But I had a pretty hard rehab process and the prognosis wasn't good. And my first interaction with yoga was learning yoga. nidra actually, somebody taught me Yoga nidra kind of gave me this idea that I could control my own energy levels at the time I couldn't sit up without fainting wasn't going well. And of course, there was a lot of stress and anxiety related to that. And I had this kind of really intense experience because I basically did yoga nidra on and off all day for months. Hmm, I don't think most people would do that. But I was a diligent person, I had been a musician, I knew how to practice. So I figured, okay. And it gave me a sense of moving through my system in a very different way and kind of changed my reality. So I did that for months. And it really, really helped me. And then I couldn't walk for a long time. But once I could, I found my way to a local yoga studio, or I met a teacher who was kind of teaching like a fusion of things, but was basically like integral yoga style, some like basic hatha kind of mellow. So I went there, and I practiced yoga, I really liked it. And it helped me recover. I remember I went on a Monday, and then I went back the next Monday, you know, like the way a lot of people do. And the teacher said to me one day, she said, Well, you're really progressing quickly. And I said, Well, yeah, of course, because I practice every day, because I thought you were supposed to go to yoga class that practice or like the teacher be mad at you. I hadn't done a yoga studio stuff. So she was like that most people don't do that. But that's great. So yeah. So I became like a really diligent student, and I got into yoga, this is New York in the early 2000s. There's a lot of kind of great yoga stuff around then. 

Michele Lawrence 
I come from that place, too. Yeah, so we have that in common.

Brandt Passalacqua
 I ended up at integral yoga for a teacher training. Once I like rehabbed and I was like, I want to do the next thing. This is amazing. But the other thing that happened is, in addition to not dying, which was a high probability, and my autoimmune disease not coming back, which it usually did, I started having all these other benefits, of course, because I was doing a lot of yoga. So my anxiety disorder kind of went away, and I lost a lot of weight. And I had been obese for a long time. And so I got really kind of fascinated with how yoga worked. So my teacher training, I did a bunch of yoga personally, start teaching privates and things. And then I met myka, Stiles who wrote structural yoga therapy. I don't know if you've ever met him. But he was kind of tootling around. I think it was just him and Michael Lee from Phoenix Rising, Phoenix Rising. Were the only two schools I think in the US at the time. I mean, maybe aircraft out in California or whatever, maybe, but there wasn't a lot of round. So I took a yoga therapy training. And, like most people, I was self referential, and I was like, I'm gonna work with obesity and autoimmune diseases. This is the thing I want to do, because I at least understand the field these people are dealing with. So I did that. And I got really into the obesity work and started practicing as a yoga therapist, and started getting really good results with people, which I wasn't sure what's going to happen, even though I was very inspired, you never really know. And I ended up working as a yoga therapist for years, which as you know, was kind of rare. There weren't many yoga therapists. So I had a private practice in Manhattan for years and years. And then eventually, after doing all sorts of things with that, I also worked at inpatient settings with mental health conditions and physical conditions, actually went to massage school, and then studied medical massage and got really into body stuff, just because I seem to get sort of help myself in terms of learning.

Michele Lawrence
And they fit together nicely.

Brandt Passalacqua
Yeah, well, that was part of it, too. I'll be working with someone who was obese, and maybe like, I have scoliosis, what you got for me, it sort of comes up. And so I did that for years. And then eventually, I started training for the weight loss work. And then I started an online yoga therapy training, and which eventually kind of led into what I do now, which is teaching in our yoga therapy school.

Michele Lawrence
Yeah, that's a great little recap for me, and a beautiful progression, it kind of makes a lot of sense. I think most yoga therapists I know, myself included, landed in the place that we're in, because of our own personal story, sort of being the first catalyst, right? And the healing experience that we've had through yoga with yoga, and then where it takes us is a lot of different directions. So appreciate you sharing with our listeners and with me what that look like for you. And I'm curious, your story about practicing yoga nidra to really help heal yourself from that severe auto immune disease that you had. Reminds me of a story that I've heard a Dr. Marc Halpern tell many times. Have you ever met him or heard his story?

Brandt Passalacqua
I might have heard it a long time ago. So remind me Yeah, I've definitely heard him speak. I don't know him personally, though.

Michele Lawrence
Yeah, well, I mean, just the similarity in that he also had kind of a strange and debilitating autoimmune disease. I don't know if it was diagnosed to the same extent that Yours may have been, but really healed himself through Yoga nidra by practicing it all day long every day for months. Wow. So yeah, there's a similarity.

Michele Lawrence
he's got a book out about it, too. Now, are you still someone who deals with your autoimmune disease that you suffered from?

Brandt Passalacqua
No, I mean, for years, I would get tested now. And then. But it's one of these things where you're either dying or you're not. There's not much to do in between. Because there's no real, there's no treatment. And it turned out for me, I realized, your body can compensate a lot for these kinds of things, and the hematologist that I was working with, and I sort of theorized that somehow, that had happened. And so my body got really good at making more blood cells. For instance, from my point of view, which was not my doctors, I'd been doing all this Yoga nidra, sort of dropping down through the coaches and, like, hanging out my energetic body for an hour at a time. Yeah, middle of the day. And I could feel all these subtle shifts, and I began to sort of get better at allowing myself to heal in that way, which is a big ask. But if you have the time, it works. Of course, my hematologist like to be like I was insane. Share, right. He was happy. I wasn't dead. So we met there. Yeah.

Michele Lawrence
So you brought up the Koshas, and I want to talk about that a little bit more, because you've mentioned to your programs for weight loss, specifically a bit of a specialty. So I understand two things, right, that you apply the whole person or the kosha model and your yoga therapy approach. And it sounds like you did that for your own personal healing, and what you do and your trainings, and it also at the same time looks like you specialize a bit in different applications of yoga therapy, such as weight loss. So I'd love to know a little bit more about the specializations and how you approach them and why they're effective.

Brandt Passalacqua
Sure. Well, I eventually kind of codified how I think about things and like most things, none of its original material. But the way I ended up working is the CO ship model, which moves you through all your aspects of yourself, but also using the now your Vedic model and balancing doses and I ended up combining them. So that's a little complicated, but for each person, it looks a very particular way. So one of the things with the obesity work that I realized early on that was a huge problem is that each person was getting treated. Did the same as the next Yeah. And that it doesn't really make any sense I had clients with had like large amounts of early childhood sexual trauma who that were obese, I had clients that had horrible diets that were obese, I had clients that had other illnesses that were obese, I have clients that had anxiety. So everybody was kind of coming at it in a different way. And it would sort of result in possibly overeating, possibly a metabolic disorder. And wherever they went, people were just giving them their system. And so if you look at success rates of weight loss programs, they're horrible. And the reason they're horrible, I think, is that it's just because they have 100 people in front of them, and they're pretending they're all the same. But of course, you can group people, but I would say there's definitely at least a solid five to seven, like kind of subtypes that you would want to look at. And then of course, where you kind of lean into the practice as the whole thing. So the way I see yoga therapy is a big aspect of it is, what practices are gonna facilitate the change that any person wants, whatever that is, yeah, and that looks very different for different peoples. So I put out a book A long time ago, that was kind of a system because you kind of have to say, hey, well follow all these steps. But the general principle of it was kind of trauma and anxiety aside, what would it look like if you ate and sort of self evaluated from a different perspective, so one of those perspectives would be, say, your energy levels versus how hungry you are, because I was seeing sort of these large imbalances and people, and they were very dysregulated. So I tried to like boil it all down. But it's not exactly how we worked in private. But that work ended up being really successful. So in my private practice, I have my like, personal success rates, but success looks a lot of different ways. So in private practice, we'd see somewhere around a third of people lose weight, and we'd lose a third of people, which is like kind of a given. And what I was most fascinated with, honestly, was the other third who kind of healed themselves in other ways. Maybe they lost a little weight, but regulated themselves in a variety of ways and felt much better physically, mentally, and emotionally, and were happier. And would say, I'm good. Now, of course, it's always amazing. I've worked with people, I've lost 200 pounds and kept it off. So that's As Seen On TV stuff. It's fantastic to see. But there's this other piece that always would make me really happy when someone be like, you know, I'm good. I'm good. I'm really healthy, sleeping great. I mean, a great relationship. And I don't know if it's worth it to me to lose 80 pounds, like the effort that that would take. So I'm good. So that was that work. And his continues to be that work, we actually have a training we just kind of revamped and put out for yoga therapists on that.

Michele Lawrence
Very cool. Yeah, I love how you're able to think about individualized approaches, even to things that might be yoga for this or specialty, right? And taking in the whole person no matter what, and what success looks like, right? You're not just studying one metric of the pounds. But really, what brings them joy, what makes them happy, like you've said a couple of times, I'm good, right? And hearing that from the clients that you work with as a sort of a truer test of the success of work that you do together.

Brandt Passalacqua
Yeah. And I have so many stories of people who just their lives completely transformed. While I was working with them, I got to see it. So I always say yoga therapy is the opposite of a burnout job. Like, wow, you're doing great. So that's fine. And then we apply the same kind of thing to other, I guess what you're asking about specialties. So yeah, for autoimmune diseases, it's like we don't just roll in and say, Oh, that's this kind of autoimmune disease. It's a cough and balance. And here's how it goes. We do pretty extensive evaluation and assessment and try to figure out what uniquely would benefit this individual. and applying that to things like chronic fatigue syndrome, for instance, has yielded us pretty good results.

Michele Lawrence
Yeah, it's so interesting to me, and maybe you experienced this too. But as a yoga therapist, and as someone who trains other yoga teachers to become yoga therapists, there is a bit of a mindset shifting that sometimes needs to happen with new clients or with new students. And that mindset shift is one like, Oh, yeah, it's not, we're not talking about a set of poses. Yoga therapy is not a sequence, right? That this sequence is the weight loss sequence or this sequence is The anxiety sequence or this sequence is the low back sequence, right? But sometimes people are asking for that.

Brandt Passalacqua
So often, and I think a lot of students come into our school. That's what I noticed, too. Yeah, they come in and they say, Okay, well teach me, like this week, we have a module coming up, and we're teaching stuff on bipolar disorder. And I've already had questions before even started teaching. Yeah, like, great. You're gonna get the cliff notes of the sequences that help with that. And yeah, that's not the right question. Right? Yeah,

Michele Lawrence
it's not. And at the same time, like, we know that there are certain things that you can do in yoga, whether it's with your breath, or with your body, that are up regulating or down regulating or stabilizing, right. So of course, yes, those things certainly factor into it. But it's not boilerplate, if you will, or sequential. That's going to work the same thing for everybody. And, yeah, there's wonderful joy in that. And there's sometimes disappointment in hearing that too.

Brandt Passalacqua
Well, realizing how vast a field you've just wandered into, like all things about humans, that's not that easy. And I think that's the interesting thing about research, too, because there's such great yoga therapy research going on. But of course, they're always studying one particular thing. Yeah, to pigeon holes. I think when people see that they're like, Oh, well, this worked for depression. So everyone should do it. Right? And when I read them, and I'm guessing you have the same reaction, I'm like, that totally worked. And there's 18. Other things that could work as well. That's right, we just got to get the studies on those two, and then people have more choices.

Michele Lawrence
Yeah. And it makes it harder to study in some respects, too, right? Because of all the variability involved to replicate the same thing. And how meaningful that is, whereas like mindfulness meditation, and we'll talk about meditation here in a minute, because I know that you have some programs around that too. But if we think about mindfulness, or mbsr, a very specific, replicable style of meditation, it's much easier to study. Because you're doing the same thing with people, and watching the results of the same thing over time.

Brandt Passalacqua
And it's amazing work, of course, I mean, that that research is so valuable in terms of just promoting meditation in general, I'm so happy did it. But I have a reaction like, well, there's a lot of ways you can meditate.

Michele Lawrence
Yeah, yeah. Well, let's talk about that. Yeah, cuz you run an online meditation program for folks around the globe, really, to come together in community and explore the practice of meditation. So I'm wondering, what does that look like in your global Sangha, if you will? And what advice do you have for those who either want to learn to meditate, or learn how to deepen their meditation practice, there's so many options out there, and really accessible ones too for meditation, whether it be apps or YouTubes, or teachers or whatever. So what makes your approach different?

Brandt Passalacqua
Well, I think it depends on what you're interested in and what you're looking for. So I mean, the way I see it, the apps and sort of everything that's geared towards beginners, in that way, are amazing. They introduced people to stuff, they make it really easy. I mean, I have insight timer on my phone, I don't know anybody who doesn't, just for the timer, even, it's worth it. And I think if you're just kind of like dipping your toe in, and you're kind of curious what it would be like to meditate, they're great. But in my humble opinion, if you're looking for like, spiritual evolution versus solving sort of day to day problems, then you really need methods and teachers. I think that's where I draw the first distinction. Of course, it's always a benefit, say that you'll suffer less, you'll have less anxiety. These are like common outcomes for meditating. Sure. But beyond that, it's very hard to navigate that kind of spiritual space in terms of moving forward in your own understanding of yourself without teachers. I mean, the first thing I'd say is we structured it so that people have access. And I think one of the things I love most about our meditation school is that people come in, we have our meditations and teachings on but it's all in context of coming on live and hearing other people talk about their experiences, and getting personalized advice. That's how I've learned to meditate over the years and has kind of moved me forward. And that's why I chose to do it that way. And the other thing that's in our I guess, method, it's funny, I did it myself, but I never thought of myself is like creating a lineage or something. It's just sort of, I kind of sat back one day and said, okay, I've learned all these things and had a few really great teachers and what would it look like to show it to somebody else? Teaching people privately but how could I do that in a sort of Online Course kind of format. Sure. So I broke it down into three big sections, and then offered multiple meditations that achieve similar results. So what it ends up looking like as you come in just for example, the first section is all grounding and tranquility meditations. And so you're learning a whole bunch of different meditations, really looking for the one or two or three, whatever suits you that are going to get you that experience. So it's not like a set, sort of like yoga therapy, right? Like, we have this general experience, we want feeling more tranquil, moving into a tranquility state being more grounded, less anxiety. And here's a whole bunch of ways you can meditate to do that. And now your job is to try them in different ways and figure out over time, what's most beneficial for you. And then we progress people through what you could consider like levels, because it does take a little bit of skill, say, to meditate for longer, or to achieve like, sort of different results in your own mind. So that's how we do it, the students are close, we have an online social network, people see each other, they become friends, some of my ta is run meditations where people meditate and then talk to each other. So it's like, there's this community around it. And the other thing I was trying to solve was, and when I went into it, it's not lost on me that I'm a kind of guy, you know, a male. I'm a white guy, all the things. And I'd like how do I do this without it being kind of all about the teacher and sort of this guru kind of thing that's gone on over the years, without losing that kind of student teacher relationship. So we've emphasized the community really heavily. And my role is to help people think about their own practice. So they get that interaction with the teacher without having to in any way sort of succumb agree, feel less than etc. So that was the goal of it.

Michele Lawrence
It sounds fabulous. Yeah. And I can relate, we've recently held some meditation workshops online, where we've had a group come together over the course of time and a teacher to help talk about it, right? Because there seems to be less talking about meditation than, like, promotion of meditation.

Brandt Passalacqua
Absolutely agree with that. I'm so glad you said that. And also like, what it's like to study with someone who's done this thing that you're trying to learn. And I totally get the pushback on that based on what's happened over the last 500 years or whatever. But there is a benefit. And there's been so much promotion of like meditating is great for you. And all you got to do is like, kind of open this app. Yeah, meditate 10 minutes a day, and you're gonna get all the benefits. And I think the downside to that is like, a lot of people don't get the benefits from that. Yeah. And then they say things like, meditation doesn't work. Sure. Which is not exactly accurate. Or

Michele Lawrence
they, there's not even an understanding of what meditation is, right? And how it can look in a lot of different ways. So almost every app that I've been on, either, like, has you sit there and observe your breath, which I think is lovely, or it's some sort of guided imagery, right? But there's so much

Brandt Passalacqua
yeah, there's so many more. And what they don't say is that sitting and observing your breath, if you're a certain kind of person is literally like being in a torture chamber. Yeah. And pretty much across the board in our program, I will say that the feedback we get mostly is like I've meditated before, and I can't believe that I didn't know all this, that it was so easy, that in six months, I could feel this difference. And it's mostly because of what you're saying, because there's options and yeah, try to personalize it a little bit, and talk about it with others who are struggling or having successes of their own that they can learn from. 

Michele Lawrence
Yeah, that's awesome. And so I understand that your work and what you do, and as a leader and a teacher and a one on one yoga therapist, all the things that you have done so far and will continue to do is a great inspiration for many others. And I'm also curious what inspires you the most about the work that you do today?

Brandt Passalacqua
I would definitely have to say it's seeing the work work. I mean, I am blown away. I got into this as as someone who did yoga therapy and then I was very inspired by the clients I was working with and the changes made in their lives, but I had no idea would translate and I had no idea that I could see it in such a kind of global way. So one of the things I get to do because I have a school is to run our practicum. And I'm literally shocked, like, I get home from work. And it's hard for me, I have a family, you know. And my wife's a yoga therapist, too. So we talked about things. But we don't want to talk about yoga therapy all the time. There's lots of things in life, but I get home and I'm like, Oh my gosh, like this thing that happened today, like this story I heard about this person whose life was so difficult, becoming so much less difficult. It's really inspiring, like, I'm easily distracted. My natural state is to want to do new things and got to move on. But this is just completely inspiring and fascinating to me that somebody can move and breathe, and sit still and change their life on such a profound level. I can't imagine that. I won't be talking about this. I'm doing this for the rest of my life, because I think it's so important.

Michele Lawrence
Yeah, I feel so similarly, in terms of as a fellow yoga Therapy Program Director that gets to oversee the practicum. That is the most rewarding aspect of my job is to see the work that individuals are doing with the students that are going through the mentorship. And I also have this feeling and I don't know if you can relate to this, like, I'm so glad for them. Like, I'm inspired by that. And I know that it's like it's filtered down through the education that they've got. But I'm so rewarded to see that the students are so rewarded to see that the person that they're working with, is having such a radical shift in their Oh,

Brandt Passalacqua  
it's amazing. And the other since we're both in this have the same job. The other amazing thing is a lot of the students, they've never had a different experience. And they're like, wow, this works, I guess. Yeah. And I'm like, Oh, no, this is amazing what's happening. And sometimes they don't even realize how amazing it is, which is actually great, because they're going into it with that attitude. But it's super fun, because they're like, Oh, this stuff works. A lot of the time. I'm gonna go Yeah. But yeah, it's great to see people having those first experiences of helping someone in that way. And we have, you probably do, too, a lot of people come to yoga therapy school, right? from like, nursing or some other like helper profession where they're really hard on them. Yeah, that's always great to see, too. Yeah, they're having a different experience.

Brandt Passalacqua 
Yeah. And of course, there are the experiences to where the yoga therapist and training is struggling with the client, right? And no, it always works at our school. I'm just kidding. Everyone gets 100% better at re, like the clients show up or the client, do the work. He practices Yeah, doesn't do the practices. And that's hard. So I don't want listeners to be left out there thinking that there's only this upside to it, that it always works because the struggle is there too. And yet, when we see in one practicum, a yoga therapist and training working with three different people, at one time, the client who is struggling is oftentimes then paired by another client who has had this amazing transformation. And that keeps us all going I think,

  
yeah, and it helps us really go into like meeting people where they're at and what they're capable of at that moment. So yeah, it's a great lesson for all of us, I think, right to remember, like this person is capable of X amount and has x amount of energy right now. When I got into all day, I told that story about my life, but like I didn't have kids, then I'm not sure that story wouldn't be the same. If I had small children, I was taken care of. We have to modify a lot for people really?

Michele Lawrence
Yeah, good point. So last question, I asked all of our guests that come on the podcast. So at interpeace Yoga therapy, we teach the students who are becoming yoga therapists that one of the key pillars to doing the work of yoga therapist is to first have your own practice, right, daily, ideally. And of course, we call this sadhana, our spiritual practice. And this sets the foundation and comes before holding space and doing any work with others. So I'd love to know about your daily practice. I heard you tell us the story about what it looked like when you were going through your healing process years ago. What does it look like today? 

Brandt Passalacqua
My personal practice? Yeah. Oh, so that has definitely taken many shifts and evolved over the years. So it's gone from a two and a half to three hour for a sadhana A long time ago. Sure, which is not my life now. So my personal practice currently is It's mostly meditation, and some pranayama and some Asana. The Asana is basically a physical endeavor at this point for me, the pranayama is a kind of chronic, emotional balancer. And most of my practice time is spent sitting. But that's where I'm at today, of course, and change. Yeah, I wasn't always like that. It used to be mostly Asana, probably that's how it goes for most people and kind of evolved over the years. And I kind of use my Asana and sort of like, to be honest, like kind of workout time, or you know, getting older. I'm not super old. I'm 50. So I'm very conscious of like what I need to do for my body to be most useful in the world, which is very different than when I was doing an hour and a half of specific asanas as my son Ah, so yeah, that's my practice. And we'll see what it looks like in another five years. Who knows? Yeah, that's me again.

Michele Lawrence
Yeah, I think it's natural for it to evolve over time. And I feel similarly to you. I'm also class of 89. I think maybe to have that in common. We have a lot more in common than we ever knew. But great to speak with you today and to learn more about you and for those listening. If you'd like to learn more about Brent and the work that he does, you can visit breathing deeply calm. Thanks again.

Brandt Passalacqua
Thank you so much for having me your show. Really appreciate it.

Michele Lawrence  
If you'd like to learn more about who we are and what we do, visit us at inner peace, yoga therapy.com

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