SE 3, EP 20: Lucinda Williams - Lucinda Williams

Tonight on . This Is Vinyl Tap . The sun is hanging in the sky , sinking low , and so am I , pins that don't run out of ink and the longest bridge I've ever crossed .

In 1948, .

Columbia Records introduced the 33 and the 3rd RPM Long Player Record . One year later , rca Victor introduced the 45 RPM Single . The record has now had a choice only the hits or the full album . In the last half of the 60s , the best bands realized the potential of the longer format and began to build a cohesive body of music that must be heard unbroken .

Well , good evening everybody . As you can tell by the sound of my voice if you have listened previously , this is Tony Slagle , normally the co-host but hosting tonight , joined by our co-host or host , normal host , doug Cooper , and , of course , our humble , humble producer , jonathan JM Rowe .

Yeah , we've had some issues , Those rough times that hit everybody else's life well , they hit us too .

Yeah . So we took a little break , You wouldn't know , because we've kept up with our posting of new episodes , but we've taken a little break recording and we're gathered together tonight to speak about the third studio album from . I'm going to call her an Americana pioneer . I know she bristles at that label , but I think it's fitting .

Most artists end up bristling at the titles that they get .

Yes , I don't think that's a bad title , but I'm going to say it .

It's a good title and it's very accurate .

Yeah , and it's Lucinda Williams in her 1988 self-titled album . Lucinda Williams And I'm going to go ahead and toss this right away to the person who picked this album and ask the question Doug , the question on everyone's mind is why didn't you pick Car Wheels on a gravel ?

road . That's true , everybody is asking that , and I think this album is better .

I would say it's much better .

I feel like Car Wheels on the Car Wheels on the trampoline .

We're a little rusty tonight , guys , sorry .

I just feel like that's the album for people with training wheels . They came in late and they needed some help . This is her breakthrough album . This is the album that captured me . So there are both intellectual reasons I chose this album , and there are also deep , deep emotional reasons I picked this album .

It's fair to say , don't you think , after her two Folklings albums , that this is the album where Lucinda Williams became Lucinda Williams ?

It is . I think so . Yeah , the thing that I will say about the writing on this album is that it's not self-conscious So much . That she did after this is so very self-conscious . It was like the words just came out of her .

The writing on this album is what if you had a sophisticated child , someone with the brain of an adult , but the worldview ? of a kid a six-year-old kid , that's , or whatever age kids are when they run around naked in the sprinkler . This is that , because she is not self-conscious at all .

And she's got a hell of a band back in her up . She has a great band back in her up And it's a band that I think we've talked times before about the whole 10,000 hours thing . This is a band that played the songs on this particular album all the time , live over and over again .

It was like looking at the back of their hand because they played it so much , which actually I mean again , it was just because it's just . I don't want to say tossed off , because that's not really the- .

We don't say those kinds of things on this podcast champ .

But it's so different than anything that she did after this , where it was painstaking for her to create an album , and it shows And this album really does have this y'all debris It's just like they're having a great time playing it .

Yeah , it does sound like that , and if you listen to the deluxe version of it , which we're not going to talk about tonight , but there's live- .

Two days Yeah .

There's live . Well , i'm just going to say there's live versions on that and the live versions of the passionate kisses on that sound like the studio version . It's flawless sounding . It sounds fantastic . Maybe slightly sped up , but yeah , this is a band firing on all cylinders .

And this is when she becomes the Lysinda Williams exactly , and the Lysinda Williams sound has a lot of Tom Petty in it . that was not on the first two albums .

Right .

And I don't know what happened but Well , she discovered .

Well , gerv Muller , marlix discovered the 12-string guitar , i think , which really helps us .

I think a lot of it has to do with who . she was moving to California and playing with that paisley underground scene out there , all those roots rockers out there . It was different than the roots scene in Austin .

But I mean , i think the bands that were coming out here , the Blasters X , the Long Riders , the Long Riders , i mean there was just that , i'd say the Long Riders .

What Brian Eno had to do with this game .

In your Eno shirt . Yeah , another green shirt .

If he can't talk about Eno , he's got to like shove it in our face with a shirt .

I have to face both of y'all tonight . Anyway but yeah , there really was just something that was going on in LA at this time that was bringing traditional I guess , the punk aesthetic to traditional country music , traditional even folk music .

No , i agree with that . And the weird thing is , is all of those bands almost another two or tee if they were about eight years too early ? And I mean , you think about this album we're talking about tonight . It wasn't a huge success until much later , and if this album had been released five years later , it would have been a monster .

A monster , well , that's what happened with her other albums that came later . People were all into that . I can remember forcing . I've got a long history of forcing people to listen to stuff . I remember forcing people to listen to this and those same people were oh , we're all about the car on the gravel .

A couple of six years later , or whatever it was .

You're right , this came out too early . Maybe it's not too early . Maybe it was the thing that prodded other people to that direction .

You're absolutely right . You can hear specific songs on the South . You can hear them influence other people who sort of were the stars of that genre once it became the thing at the time . I mean , grunge killed everything , but there was a period in the early 90s when this kind of music was really really big .

She . I call her the genre blender because you cannot pin her down . You could before this album , but when this album came out , i feel like there ought to be videos of a bunch of mad folk people getting upset like they did with Bob Dylan or who was it ? We just did it . Everybody was upset after they .

Welcome . No , no , no , t-rex . T-Rex and North Bowlin .

But she made a turn like that . It suits her , so so well , too . I love music that isn't in line . It's like the kid going to the cafeteria from his classroom that the teacher cannot get him to stay on the little red line because he just doesn't have the ability . She doesn't either . I mean , she paid a high price .

Well , this is . We're talking about a person tonight who was kicked out of high school for refusing to say the Pledge of Allegiance . So I mean , this is somebody who's got a giant ship on her shoulder .

Yeah , but she also has And doing what people say you know . So this might be a good time to kind of get into her history . She was born in Lake Charles Louisiana .

Have you ever been there , Jim ?

I have been there I haven't .

I always wanted to go .

I played poker there one time . It's a very flat place , but her dad was . Her dad was a poet and he started out . I didn't realize this until today . He started off as a biology major and he thought he was going to be a biology professor And then he went , I think , to the University of New Mexico and changed to being an English professor .

He was a lobo .

I think he was a lobo at one point , yes , And so he became a English professor and he started writing poetry and started to be kind of renowned and won all sorts of awards and everything This is Miller Williams , miller Williams , yeah .

The third , only the third person to read a poem at the inauguration .

He read it twice .

He read a poem at Clinton's second inauguration .

And the first .

No , Maya Angelou did the first .

Who's that ? Go ahead and write us . I thought he did both of them , but you're right .

No , she did that one , i'll never forget that one .

That's the one that was played over and over again .

He did the second one . He was friends with Clinton but Clinton had a poet read at both of his . but prior to that I think Kennedy was the last president , or the first . English president to have a poem read at his inauguration .

Yeah , and he befriended like she had poets and writers that would be in her , and her mom was a pianist , i think an amateur pianist . He got custody of the kids when they divorced in the mid-60s .

She had some mental issues , yeah , i think , hospitalized a couple of times And Lucinda talks about having a bit of a struggle with her relationship with her mom , her dad . Up until I want to say the album after this , she would send him her lyrics and get I don't think , i think for Car Wheels on a gravel road .

Well , and something that highly recommends him , in my opinion , is he didn't like the doors at all .

Yeah , that's good . That's good , I think we all would agree .

Wasn't he friends with Charles Bukowski ?

Probably . He was friends with a lot of people , interesting people , i mean he was a pretty big guy And he was also . They were fairly nomadic because of his career .

Yeah , right , so they went all up and down Highway . Is it 20 ? She's got a , or maybe it's 10 . She's got an album out .

Yeah , it must be 10 , because 20 turns into 10 up and oh yeah .

Anyway , she has an album about her nomadic existence up and down that highway in the south from Georgia to Texas .

Well , it's impressive . She started , evidently started writing songs at six And then really started writing songs when Highway 61 Revisited came out , when she was 12 . I mean , a 12-year-old hearing Dylan and going , oh , i really want to beat her . That's kind of unusual , That's unusual .

So one thing I noticed about there is something similar about her father's poems and her songs . To find a poet , a modern poet , who's not embracing obscurity is really unusual . And his poems are straightforward , just like her music , and they sound prosy while at the same time they're poetry , but they don't sound .

One of the things she does is she repeats a line , but it'll be verse , verse , verse , and then it'll be a line by itself , and it'll be a verse , verse , verse and then a line by itself , and it kind of brings you back .

Well , she repeats the blues do without the same form , right , yeah .

I mean that's obviously an influence on her , at least lyrically in the song structure , but the sound , i mean she was playing a lot of blues early on But that changed as she progressed . And the other thing , i guess that helped in her sort of . When you were talking about Jean , what did you call her genre blending or She's a genre blender ?

Yeah Well , she said she wanted to sing like Joan Baez and Judy Collins , and she discovered that that one her deal . And that was nowhere near her deal And I'm so glad it wasn't . And she heard Bobby Gentry . Ah yeah . And then when she heard Bobby Gentry , she goes oh , this is what , and that doesn't make sense to me .

It does to me . Bobby Gentry was at least packaged . I don't know how much of it was true , but packaged as this sort of feminist woman who wasn't going to take crap from anybody when her songs came out The voice .

I think the attitude probably , i don't know what listen to Williams heard and Bobby Gentry that made her think that she could do it .

Well , i think it might have been that . I mean , her voice isn't necessarily that strong .

No , it's not strong at all . She sings a lot of covers that other people have really heard her sing in a song that Aretha Franklin did today And I'm saying no , no , no .

No , no , no . Bobby Gentry , I don't think has the greatest song .

No , that's what I'm talking about .

Oh OK .

I say , why is Bobby Gentry singing a song that Aretha Franklin already did ? Who did what song is her most famous ? Jane ?

Bobby Jumping Off The Bridge . what's that ? Oh DeBilly Joe , oh DeBilly Joe .

Oh , DeBilly Joe , Bobby Jumping Off The Bridge Another great tune .

And just to toss out a nod to another podcast anybody who wants to go down a rabbit hole and understand the story of that particular song , listen to Cocaine and Ryan Sins . I think there's a three-part episode on that .

And you'll get to hear what a podcast is supposed to sound like That's a good podcast .

Yeah , anyway . So she had all these . She was definitely influenced a lot by her father . You can't get away from that . There's also seems to be a lot of heartache , and it's not like a heartache like , oh , i'm so sad this has happened to me , it's more like a resignation to me . In a lot of her songs She seems easily heartbroken and very resilient .

Yeah , and Big Red Sun's song , that Big Red Sun , you know that reminds me of it's kind of a Loretta tradition of being heartbroken but defying at the same time , and I think that's why she's probably seen as an icon of sort of feminist music is because she embraces that .

So , you know you got to move on .

She sings a lot of songs that fall in that category of songs about women telling the guy that they're strong and they don't need them anymore and they're going to move on . The greatest one of those ever was Believe by Cher , which is more appropriate for a 25 year old woman than a 62 year old woman , But basically telling the guy I don't need you anymore .

But I think this separates her , at least on this album .

She doesn't seem injured by it permanently , it's . she's hurt , but not injured .

I didn't think about it that way , the way that .

I was taking it . It doesn't take away her innocence and her childlike .

Well , yes , that's where I was going with this . It seems like that's what I was saying earlier . It seems like a resignation to us like this as well . This is how it happened .

Which is really important for moving on . But you know , speaking of moving on , we probably sound really ridiculous to a bunch of women right now . I want to apologize to all four women . Less than any of these podcast . So we were talking about her growing up . She ends up at the University of Arkansas .

I don't know Later I think that's a good question , because he was he's a professor , was a professor of .

Meredith , there He was there . I think he had two . Yeah , i think he had two stents there . And I can't remember . I think he went there .

He started the Arkansas press .

Is that right ?

Yeah , he was the guy who got that off the ground . Wow , university of Arkansas press . Yeah , so she . But Doug , how'd she do there ?

That wasn't her calling .

No , it was not her calling .

Yeah but she didn't last long in college .

That was not her calling , i think she just didn't feel comfortable around all those hugs and she moved to Austin Texas So she got me around stairs .

Before we get to that though it was a little funny story She's living in . she actually lived in New Orleans before that for a little while and went to Nashville to audition for Opryland in 1972 . And she got the gig the gig to audition through a friend of her father's who was the basis for Tom T Hall of all people that we mentioned before .

Well , that may have lessened to you young people out there , yeah , yeah .

But yeah , she did it . She's finding a state that hasn't legalized it . She ended up eventually in 74 , i think is when she moved to Austin .

Yeah , she spent some time in Mississippi and , like I said , louisiana and came to Austin . She came to Austin , where she belongs .

Yeah , i have a huge prejudice . I already told Tony this , but when I hear this album , it reminds me so much of Austin at that time .

Yeah , it really does .

It reminds me of being in an outdoor venue listening to this . I'm folk , i'm rock , i'm country mixture , and she epitomizes it , and I cannot help but have flashbacks .

Yeah , i think she used to be around so much that I didn't know who she was until after this album came out And I went to a music venue and she just Was like right there , yeah , table right across around . Holy crap , this is .

Lucinda William , you know she's saying backup on yeah .

Album that wasn't really Resident release nationally , but yeah , that's a great album .

But she know the reason , what one of the reasons she left was . She wasn't . I mean , you guys are talking about her and you knew who She was , but she wasn't getting a whole lot of do in Austin . I wasn't as influential then .

You know So different than Mike's .

Because he had no books of women .

Yeah , though , women . Well , the one that was running the , what I used to play there was was a woman . She did all the booking and , yeah , she made sure yeah , maybe this guy got straightened out after that She she ended up .

She would what she would do , because Austin , i mean , she would this kind of her story until she makes it , she's having trouble struggling , making any money anywhere . She's kind of going back and forth between she lived in Houston for a while , yeah , and she would play in Houston , and I think I want to say it's when she's in Houston That she gets .

I know that album Yeah .

I mean , i got a t-shirt and he said you know , i bet if you contact folkways they'll let you do an album . And so she did , and and She talks to The guy Mo Ash , i think he was the guy who's running at the time . It's owned by Smithsonian now , i think , right , smithsonian folkways . But He offers there's 300 bucks to come cut it out .

It's all pretty sparse and then she ends up but , she did get some respect from the No no , no , i think , absolutely .

I mean , I think people , people in that scene really dug that out a lot and then she's that lead ballet thing where she plays a 12-string acoustic .

Yeah and she has such an Unusual voice that I find immediately appealing .

It's I was . I was thinking about it today when I was listening to the album we're talking about again and I don't know if it's if it's Where she was raised or how she was raised , or it's her accent . She's very round in her delivery , if that makes any sense . Mm-hmm and it's . It's an unusual . It's unique , but it's right .

This is . This is the kind of thing that they say on NPR . That drives me crazy , so I'm gonna go ahead and say it , but there's something authentic in the way her voice sounds .

Well was authentic . No way her voice sounds I think that she Affected that later but the way that she delivers this by this album .

That was it yeah , and I and I'll piggyback on that . I think one of the things that when people talk about and I know again genres but when people talk about the difference between something like the Lucinda Williams album we're talking about tonight and country music that was Popular at the time is the a word is authenticity . I think that's the real .

Well , it doesn't sound like a commercial right , right , yeah , so it's it's like when you go to a restaurant like I hop or Chili's , where they have to have Food poppers let's have some sort of poppers food Everybody can eat . There's nothing that's going to poke you . There's nothing that's too hot or nothing It's that's a lot of an onion and and that's .

She makes another album for full plays too . I mean , it's kind of the history of her early career and maybe later career . I don't know know that much about it happy women blues as a good . Yeah , that's the second album , but she , she makes two albums for folk ways and then she's , she's not , she's not with them anymore .

So yeah , it's like a London Jackson almost well and Yeah , that's a good point .

And and that album is a little bit different than the first one because there are originals on it and she's Starting to blend this sound . She's coming up with with that traditional sound on that album in a way that she did not her first album and In a way that she completely sort of embraces on With the Cindy Williams album .

They were pretty old by them . She was a little disappointed . They thought she thought they'd all go hang out after she said she didn't speak a word to him the entire time .

I don't know she'd open for him for a while and she said that everybody just went yeah .

Which . If I were Bob Dylan , I would be running from my hotel room too . And what you thought ? I ?

walked out early and Bob Dylan was As I was walking out of the . He was in his bus leaving . I saw Bob Dylan leaving in his bus and you left the show early I . Left the show early because I had to meet people was he still playing when you left ? No , he was , he was given his encore going . Thank you , thank you , thank you , i just hauled that . But .

I can . I cannot imagine being Bob Dylan and having everybody come up and say the same damn thing to you . I was influenced me so much .

Voice of a generation .

And he might be fun . I don't know , he might be okay to have a beer with . I can't imagine Van Morrison be much fun to hang out .

Think the thing , i think the greatest moment in Bob Dylan's life was when he was about to play at the Yankee Stadium and He went to look at it Just just on the little walk , and these cops pulled him over . Oh yeah , because someone called and says there's a suspicious looking character walking for a proper bait walk And he goes uh . So they pull him over .

It's like your friend who Met Robert plant , Oh yeah .

He goes , he's played at the band called Led Zeppelin goes . I've heard of that .

Spends all night talking to the guy Right next to Love wheels . Yeah , great , great record store . So yeah , what ? I guess the the big kind of changes .

She ends up moving to LA from Austin and 84 is 1984 , i think a Big effect on her sound , as we talked about earlier , which makes this her breakthrough album .

No , it was wake me up . I've had enough .

Okay , why is it ? What must this ? probably not it They , but you know she's . she put out a cover album of all Tom , a lot of Tom Petty song Which nobody needs to listen to , but it just underscores this Influence and she , she opened for them for a while .

Yeah , and he , and evidently that was different . Nobody was paying attention to her and he actually came out on stage and said to the crowd You need to pay attention to this person and she's never .

She always loved him for doing that , yeah , so it sounds like that experience was much different than Bob Dylan . And yeah , more Yeah .

Well , you know it's interesting when she got this band together , that's on this album , Gurf Morlicks , and who else is it jam ? The well Jim Lardale sings these things backup , but he wasn't in the band . I don't think um it was uh , or you got Johnny Donald Lindley .

Yeah , the drums and uh .

And then the guy uh Doug was um Johnny Kimbo , till You know , you know , you know what band he was in . Johnny CM Botti . I don't he was in clover . No , really plays bass on my aim is true , really . Wow , he's basest in this band . He played bass on my aim , is true , yeah .

I had no idea .

Yeah , yeah , yeah . Uh , it's a little bit of a connection , i guess .

Um , All right , baby , this is Venus flat trap .

Remember chupaca . Is that uh bass in the pocket jam ? Can I have some purple berries ? Um ?

okay , are we doing ? we got , we got some juicy connections to uh , i Have nothing .

I've got . I've got another one , doug , if you want me to go please , please , i'm not the host Edwards . Who plays keyboards on this album ? Hmm , he plays keys on american and me .

Is that right Right ?

He's on the Steve forbert album .

You know , is that I haven't thought of that , but they both got that southern thing going on . There's some similarities .

There's a lot of similarities . Uh , i just real quick , because we often talk about connections and don't actually talk about why we're doing this .

Well , she , uh , she has a connection with springsteen . Uh-huh . They had dinner together and , uh , patty and bruce ended up seeing a background on one of her albums , uh-huh , and she was extremely excited about that .

Gurf morleks plays on this album .

Yeah , what connection does he have ?

actually not very much , except that he has played with some other guys we've talked about Before and he's from . he spent a lot of time in austin Gurf , morleks is an amazing guy . He's an amazing guy , incredibly nice guy , humble nice guy to have many of them a couple times . He's spent a lot of time here in austin .

Um , well , this isn't really connection per se with an with uh , with this album and an album we talked about , but She was married to greg souters from the long writers and i've recommended a long writers album on one of our episodes , so i'll just throw that out there .

Um , that's hanging by a thread there . They're married for about a year , but i'm about to be as bad as you go ahead .

Rackruder . Oh no , there is a ricketer connection . What is that ? Uh , the harmonica player That's right Played with this album played with ricketer on the crossroads film soundtrack .

The one about The crotty kid became a guitar . Are you doing ?

um , do you know what else ? do you know what else that harmonica player is on Or what else he's known for ? well , first of all , many people who listen may know this . Maybe they don't . Jam knows this . He's on the live in vegas pleasure barons album .

He's the theme song for home improvement as well , and rosa and or what's the one with the , the couple that's both fat . And they said oh , here is a connection .

Here is a connection to not only a band we did but another artist we did . He plays harmonica On songs in the soundtrack for lobomba And and of course we've got those lobos and who played buddy holly in the film . Marshall cranch , marshall cranchaw . Oh yeah , so we're gonna , we're making all the connections tonight .

Maybe we are connected . We have all been given .

Salo either so we've done a pretty good .

We did a pretty good job All right connected But yeah .

So it's kind of funny when the band gets together , when she gets these guys playing in the band , they get five , five bucks A gig . She gets , gives , is able to give each of them a dollar and she gets to keep two . I mean it's ridiculous . They're not making any money . Gurf morlex , i say she's being paid too much .

Let me just remind you , the United States soccer team makes much less than the american man . This is early on . This is what you moved .

La Gurf morlex was thinking about leaving the band because he's like i can't make any money doing this . He really liked it , but he can't make anyone do it , and then Rough trade comes a knock in . Well , i guess we should talk before , though , they she got a deal with cbs to record some demos and she essentially does that .

Yeah , a lot of this album Yeah um , and who ?

the guy who produced it was um , eddie henry louis , who produced blue , joni michels , blue All right , did some Leonard Cohen and neil young albums . Um , and he brought in so that her band isn't on those demos Who brings in terry adams , fan , rbq garth Hudson from the band and henry butler , a pianist , and that's who plays on these demos .

So they needed the donnie marie , they did . I'm a little bit country .

She , um , she ends up shopping this thing around and nobody wants it . Nobody wants it , so then gets in her in her rough trade . Rough trade , which was a label out of the uk that was known for signing bands like the smiths and , i think , uh , later on , like camper van bethoven was on rough trade .

I think even uh steve van zand was on rough trade at one point .

But they were . They were looking to get an inroad into the us and so they were looking to sign artists and um . And robin hurley contacts lucinda williams and says we love your voice , would you like to do a record with us ? and she's like are you kidding me ? Um , they never heard her live . Play live . I'm assuming they heard the demos .

It is true , that's .

I call that time stamp , in fact that's one of the things I have in my notes . It's like it does not sound like it came from this era because you know , at that time the thing they were doing with drums Was just making that explosion sound . Oh yeah , yeah , and that that wasn't going on .

Do you guys know why this was out of print for 10 years ? You could not find this album for 10 years or more . That's probably a legal deal . She had to re-release it herself .

That just is weird to me . That's very weird . I just learned this week why people do so many remasteries To get the money themselves . Yeah , i had no idea that that's I said . Why the hell is everybody remastering ? I can't even tell the difference to get out of it .

It's to get around the contract . Yeah , huh Yeah .

I guess you get there at the source tapes . You can do whatever you want with them .

So I appreciate knowing that now , because it makes me less angry that they're oh , it's so remastered .

Um , are we ready to talk about this album guys ?

Why not .

Do we jam ? Do you want to say anything about any of the other musicians you mentioned Jim Lauderdale , anyone else you want to talk about ?

Well , i mean , we we've talked about GERF Morlicks a little bit , but I do think we need to give him a little bit more of his do ? he is , um , a Phenomenal guitar player . He's got a very distinctive Uh style and uh , it shows very much on this album . Another thing he's really really good at is engineering .

He's also a heck of a . I mean , i've heard , i've heard . I have one of his albums . He's a heck of a performer too .

Yeah , i mean he does not , he's um . I've seen him play with the wild seeds a couple of times and he's just um He is a very wild seeds Yeah uh , a consummate performer . He . Uh , when he takes the solo and stuff . I mean he and john d Graham playing guitar together . It's one of the funnest things you can .

You can actually see well , and he , if you look at his credits on this album , he's , he's like one of those , every man , i mean any stringed instrument He's . He's playing the steel , the dobro , the mandolin , both six and twelve strings . He plays the six string bass .

Yeah , and you've just never seen a guy who just enjoys music more than kerf morlix .

Yes , absolutely , i saw an interview with him and uh , maybe it's just because he's old , but it sure seems pleasant and and Was not grasping at all for any credit .

Yeah , he doesn't . He's very behind the scenes and , um , even though he does , when he performs , it's , it's . I mean he is fun to watch and you just watch his guitar playing . Go , i can do that , i can do that and you're like no .

I never have that feeling , i never get one of those uh , understated guitar players , that .

But yeah , and the last guy I I want to talk about is um Donald linling . We briefly mentioned him , but he was . He was kind of a texas drummer Staple for a lot of albums . He also played with Dave album , dave alvin , and he played on one of my favorite albums of all time , which I hope we're gonna do At some point you can pick it .

You know you got a choice . still , Yeah , I know you're out of time out .

King of california , which is a fantastic album , and it's he plays much differently on that than he does on on this album , but , um , yeah , he lived here for quite a while . Unfortunately , he died . He played on Um car wheels on a gravel road and pretty soon after that he died of lung cancer Unfortunately , so he passed away in 1999 .

Before we get to the album , i have one little bit of trivia that I think is kind of funny . So john Uh cmb ot , or however you say his name , the bassist the guy who was in clover that was on my name is true , and his bassist on this album He's a doctor , because he's a diet doctor of chiropractic , he's a chiropractor .

Well , I can't need to have in your uh on your tour .

Especially if you're a bassist , that's a damn heavy instrument . Go out of alignment . Alrighty boys . So first , uh , we're gonna get into the album Lucinda Williams . Lucinda Williams , first song on side one , and this was back when you had sides Still 1988 .

I just wanted to see you so bad . I just want to see if you .

Alrighty , i really am happy that the organ got in there Me too .

That's fantastic .

That's one of the big changes from the first two albums . Yeah , and it . this sounds like a Tony Powerpuff .

I got that in my notes .

That's funny . I just think I was gonna say our cliche that we always say when a song is like this , which is this is a great way to start this album .

It is .

It's so much fun , this song is so much fun .

Well , it's a declaration . If you think about her fans that had the first two albums here in this , they're going what ?

Well Ears was interesting . So this was song was started in the late 70s . She started writing this song in the late 70s Way before the Columbia Deal and the Demos came out , because she had had a crush on some poet named Bruce Weigel , i think was his name , or Weigel Gotta start writing poetry . She was living in Houston .

I mean , he's just leather jacket , motorcycle .

He's , you know that , the rough and tumble guy with a heart of gold , type of whatever . And they kept in touch and this is what inspired the song . She's living in Houston . He was gonna be in San Antonio . He calls her up and says hey , i'm gonna be in a conference in San Antonio . Can you come meet me there ? And so she's certainly .

I wanted it to , so she writes this song .

Yeah , this song pretty much perfectly captures that exhilaration when you're like in a new relationship or like you'll do anything to go see whoever that person is .

I still feel that way , even though my relationship is not new .

I don't understand what you're saying . Yeah you just want to see that person more than anything in the world .

But this sounds like simple songwriting , but there's it's not . She's going to a big hotel . She has to go to the seventh floor .

She well , and there's a double meaning to that too , is there ? Yeah , i would think so . Going to the seventh floor is like this guy sending her to the moon , type of thing , you know ?

Yeah , well , she keeps getting smaller and smaller through this song .

Yeah , yeah , and that's interesting , it's so honest It's .

it's people don't really express this kind of honesty . But she's just pathetic in love and she's not yet . Yeah , everything , she's just shrinking down And I think it's .

I think it's really kind of what's interesting about her songwriting at this point , because it's not . It's not this sort of and we don't want to sound like a broken record , but it's not this sort of beating on your chest defiance . She lets herself be in that place .

It's very human Again . It's not self-conscious Very human . She's channeling , she's not protecting herself .

Yeah , yeah and you think you hear lyrics of these women and like I can have I mean they sing they sing the same as blues guys back in the 60s Like I can have 500 men and I've got the best butt in the whole club and this is the exact opposite of all that . I don't think she mentions the buttons .

Yeah , it's not rap . You know who covered this song .

Yes , emily Lou Harris , a connection with Ronnie Crowell ? Yeah , they did a duet . They do a lot together .

I did not know that .

Yeah , it was on there . it was a song on their duet album Traveling Kind .

Oh , it's a good album . I forgot I didn't know that album . It's on my own that It's a great song .

It is a fantastic . I love the drumming .

Yeah , and when you mentioned the organ , i defy you to listen to the song and not being a good mood every time the organ pops in .

It's so true , all these songs . the subject matter is not necessarily happy , but you're sitting there going yeah , it was funny .

I was thinking about this as I was driving over here . This is gonna be one of those albums where Doug talks about the lyrics and the subject matter being some of the songs .

I think that's one of the things , especially with this song . It's like she's still got that optimism that's going on . I don't say it's still going , but the music is keeping that optimism up .

That's a good point . Yeah , the music's driving that . It's her character too .

I'm going to perfectly explain that when we get to a song later on . Okay so then y'all need to worry about it .

All right , we ready to move on to the next song . Yeah , this is a song about night , about vampires . Right , the night's too long .

But then it's not long enough .

It's so hard not to sing along with these songs as they're playing . It is .

This is another song I said it's a trodden path . It's another song about longing for something more and escaping and trying to reinvent yourself , but still not finding that satisfaction .

Well , what's interesting about it is it's in the third person , which is unusual for her songwriting , from what I can tell .

You know who it sounds like .

Springsteen Yep , it is definitely a story song .

It sounds like Nebraska or the River I think on the highway .

I think I even said kind of Springsteen-y in here .

Oh did you write that as well ?

Yeah , very Springsteen .

It is .

It is . It's that taking a character and but I don't know how much Bruce puts in . I mean , i'm sure there's personal stuff in that , but this is , this is her .

I know , yeah , the guy's shirt's all soaked with sweat .

She's not trying to figure out what this is like . She's been there .

Well , and I love you mentioned before we started the song about the title , which is a night's too long , but then the chorus says it's not long enough and I think that is such a great image that this poor woman , who kind of gives up on everything , hops in a rusted out car , drives it from Beaumont to wherever she's going .

And Beaumont's the perfect town to choose .

It is .

My whole life I've always felt sorry for people that live above I know .

When I lived in Mason Texas , in San Angelo , it was like who won't ?

San Angelo Beaumont does have the world's largest fire hydrant , but I digress Anyway that doesn't make up for so much . But what I love about it is it's this woman who's lonely .

and then it's like I don't want this ever to end .

I just think that's a really cool sort of judgment .

It's really honest , like she like . Here's the justification for me doing all of this , and she doesn't tell you about how she's feeling , or how this lady's feeling .

She's painting a picture for you And the picture tells you But yeah , and she even gives her that sort of again , that strength of leaning up against the bar and watching what's going on . After the experience with the Duke , yeah , all the . Nicole Corona . Yeah , so Patty Lovelace recorded this and had a top 20 hit for it from it .

they're so funny . Yeah , i think what would . what would happen if there were an Austin ?

What would Wayland do ?

He'd written he'd pull that gun out and shooting by it's . Looking at them numbers .

Yeah , anyway , all right , we're ready to move on to song number three , abandoned .

Yes , sir .

All right Song number three abandoned .

This is pretty heartbreaking song and it's another thing where you know that she's pretty much experienced this .

She can just tell that the guy is the guys on his way , he's way out and she's calling them out .

Yeah , and she's like I'm not going to stop you , but I'm , you know , i'm also not going to end this . It's up to you and it , yeah , all she can do is wait .

I have a question for you . Is this going to sound ? I don't mean this to sound like judgment or anything . I just I was thinking about this because there's songs on this album that to me seem almost too vulnerable for her voice , if that makes any sense .

I think her voice sounds vulnerable , so I'm confused .

Yeah , i have the same reaction that .

Doug has .

Yeah , rick Lee Jones may have a more vulnerable .

I guess , i guess , but it's I don't have the history with this album that you guys do , so maybe it's the fact that the songs like the more uptempo songs are the ones that appeal to me more . So it's difficult for me to shift .

Okay , you're thinking that Emily Harris was saying in this suit , you would be more sympathetic . Yeah , i think so .

I think you're right , but but , but she's , she does have kind of a detached way of the song isn't this song doesn't ?

it doesn't strike me as much , as there's a song later on where I think her voice doesn't work very well .

Well , i I might agree with that . We might be talking about the same song , but I think that the thing that she's got , the thing that I like about her delivery on this song , is that she's resigned to it .

Yeah , she's resigned .

This is going to happen . So she's not necessarily she's , she's not crying yet . It's just like this is going to happen .

I'm not bringing this up because I think her voice sounds bad , because I don't . I like this song . I think her voice sounds fine on it .

I think she hit the nail on the head with this one . Well , i think .

I have a long history with this album and I remember which songs were rising to the top and this one was slow to rise . It was for me too , yeah , so that may be part of what's going on . I don't know .

But the thing that that I hear is , like I was saying earlier , that she's resigned . She's resigned to it . But she's detached from it . She's not crying , she's still .

It's sort of matter of fact , it's very matter of fact . It's like she's used to it .

I'm used to it . Exactly , i'm used to it , i'm bitter and I'm jaded .

You know it's funny . I don't think she's bitter .

I think she's .

I think it's funny because she was talking about This is going to happen to you're just going to do it to me again .

So I full disclosure . I listen to some of her Her autobiography for preparing for this and she talks about her marriage with Greg Saders , who was at this time I guess it had kind of fallen apart and he was the first guy that she ever dated that was in the music business and he was gone all the time .

on here .

Yeah , you know this feeling of hey , where's my , where's my guy , you know .

Nobody writes songs about the time they dumped someone else or when they weren't available .

I'm so glad that I don't you I know I keep talking about the people who covered these songs , but there's one . this . this one's interesting . Any idea who ? who covered the song ? Rod Stewart ? No , almost the same in terms of the weirdness of Rod Stewart covering a jellyfish song , the Lemonheads .

Are you serious ?

Yeah , i think Evan Dando has a has a thing for country music , so Evan Dando's going to the school , my daughter's going .

He went to the school , my daughter's going .

Because he they recorded the Lemonheads , recorded a version of Nash or Knoxville girl . so I think I think he's got like a , he's got a little Jonesy . Yeah , i think he's got the Elvis Costello Jonesy for being a country star , type of thing . That's funny , yeah , anyway , i just thought it was interesting .

Elvis Costello has covered .

No , they did . they sang together too . Yeah , yeah .

All right , all right , i saw that on YouTube . That's pretty good , it is , it is .

You need to post that . I will post that on the website . Okay , song number four and it's a good Big Red Sun Blues , which is not a blues .

What a good song .

This is my third favorite on the album , your third favorite And I , i mean I love it . So that doesn't mean .

What's your favorite ? I'm not telling you . Yet We haven't gotten to you , yet This is my second favorite song on the album .

It's . It's one of my favorite songs on the album . I don't , i don't , i just remember when this song the first time I heard . This song is really , really liking it .

This is simple and fantastic .

songwriter I am such a sucker for any song that has like that spand it , the country song that has that Spanish flair going on , yeah , yeah . And the everything about this song is damn near perfect , the instrumentation of it , her , her her voice .

Well , that's the most Background . This is what her voice is for .

It's kind of interesting that like every it's another , one It's another one where the the verses , or every verse , is a little bit different than instrumentation and the thing it's .

It's another song about being disaffected with and this is the , the mother of the mall , and this is where I had my great like the only thing she's got going for is the the Big Red Sun .

So , here's what I think This is like . She got what the , the person that from the , the nice too long , got what she wanted , and then she realizes that it's not all it's cracked up to be and she's . All you left me with was a Big Red Sun to look at what at the beginning ?

what's cool about this song and this ? may be an accident , or maybe on purpose . I like to think it's on purpose , with the guidance of her poet father . But at the beginning of the song she's talking to the guy Yeah , at the end of the song . That at the beginning of the song everything is going wrong . It's not right anymore . We can't .

It's a great song , it is , it's fantastic . And again , just to repeat , i defy you to be in a bad mood listening to this song you can't do it , you cannot , and she's heartbroken .

I cannot listen to this song well , it's got in the six-string bass makes an appearance . You can't get depressed when a six-string bass comes into a that's a heck , that's a big pocket , the 16 bases .

I always said that about banjo it's a it's a great song .

It's fantastic . This is one of those that I used to had .

I used to have great deal of trouble listening to this song one time .

I don't think , i don't , i don't think , i did , i think . Every time this song came on , i repeated it again , yeah it's so seductive . Yeah , all right . Moving on to song number five on side one , and that is like a rose that song is beautiful and has so much trouble coming out in this album .

I . I have the exact same . Yeah , i have the exact same thoughts . It's like this song could have been done so much , but it almost needs a piano and a string section by I think the fit , i think the fiddle is perfect . I think the fiddle is beautiful on it , but I just think that there's just a way manipulates me a lot with that fiddle on this .

I but again I'm gonna to . This is a song I was talking about with her voice .

I agree with you . I have the exact same .

I and again , this is no knock on her , but it's . It doesn't seem like it's what it's for is this exactly .

I think that her voice she's not lend itself to this .

I'm gonna tell you who she sounds like to me , and you're gonna punch me when I say this Nico .

I'm not gonna punch you . I think that's . I think that why I think Nico could have done this song . You know who else I think could have done ? this on Ricky Lee Jones and could have done it in with .

I just Lucinda . Lucinda , we talked about her voice . It's not . It's not the strongest voice , or whatever , but it is a great voice . It works . It's great distinctive but here it's sort of just a . It's like a single tone right and and it , and to me it's a beautiful , beautiful song .

I have nothing in common with y'all on that . Okay , her voice draws me in .

Well , i'm a jackass , what can I say ?

I've been trying to avoid that all night .

I don't understand about the rose in her hand and all just the way she hears her rose in my hand it's . It is like a Nico delivery and . I don't hear that man my daughter , my daughter yeah , exactly .

My daughter heard that when I was playing this . I said , is this sound like ? and she's like I don't know . I said any , nico , she's .

Oh my god yes , that's my my daughter loves Nico , which I mean I'm like yeah , that album , like Chelsea girl , i think is a fine it , but it is a .

Nico sounds like a android to me and I haven't seen that many and I don't , i really don't .

I don't want it , i don't want to disparage the song . I want to start the song , or Lucinda but it's like about Arkansas , it's Arkansas , but it's not the most interesting .

No song that she did .

It took me a long time for this to come Out from the .

I remember the other and through this Well it's , it's has a hard time coming out from the others .

It does , and that's not fair , because it's a good song .

It's a good song . I don't , i don't skip it . I don't feel like I need to skip it . I don't , this song doesn't come on and I'll go . Oh , i listen to it . It's just it , just to me . It's good , it's just got , it's missing a little bit of something .

Yeah , but I kept saying all it . It needs a piano and it needs a string section . Even though there's a boat bay Sonnet and there is a fiddle and the violin on it , the fiddle line is beautiful .

But yeah , i wouldn't want the strings to drown that out , because that's one of my favorite things .

I don't want strings on this album .

Yeah , all right , he boys ready for the last song . On side one change the locks .

Yep .

Yep Alrighty .

Or there was Carrie Underwood talking about breaking headlights .

There was this song this song is immensely popular and I'm suspicious that it might be immensely popper Popper , popular popper is the guy because of the subject matter , nothing I'm thinking of popper from Dickens a Christmas Carol . He was the one that was trying to kiss that girl at the whistle to anyway . That's far from what we're talking about .

I think it starts off Really good and then I think it loses control when it starts talking about I Changed the tracks .

That's . I was thinking that today . I said That's , that doesn't work . No , it should have been past then I changed the town . I think the change in name of the town works because it's so outrageous . But the tracks on the train , that's outrageous too , though Changing the tracks , yeah , yeah , but it's not the same kind of so here .

Here's here's my take . When , when she was shopping the demos of this album around , she one of the guys in Electra was listening to him And he said I don't know what to do with this stuff . Some of these songs feel half-written . There's no bridge in some of them , and he used this song as an example of a song that needed a bridge .

I agree with the guy .

I mean she got the last laugh because , as you said , this song is hugely popular . But I agree with the guy this song needs something to break it up . Yeah , it's got this weird sort of hear me out , this weird sort of 12 days of Christmas thing where everything builds right ?

No , it does , you're right . That's very , very appropriate Yeah it's .

This happens in songwriting all the time . Where they get a little , they get a little tool . Yeah and they just okay , i need a .

I need a .

I need a and B . A is the tracks , b is the train and they . They play that game and Usually I don't find that very interesting for very long and I think she carries it out for too long . There's Her voice , that waiver , and her voice works on this .

I do , i I agree with that . Yeah , because you don't know , that is she really . There is a vulnerability , it's not a pride thing .

Well , if she's trying to have , she can't be proud when she's talking about the guy just calls her up on the phone And she falls down underneath because of the things he said that's yeah that's really blatant honesty . But My Tony's right it needs a break , and a guitar break is not good enough . It needs a bridge . Needs a bridge .

Yeah , every time I hear this .

I think how can this not be David Griss ?

That's funny , that being said , though I Don't know what other , i don't know what other song he done the side with .

Well .

I think I can tell you made a better song .

This makes more sense , alive , i imagine .

I'm so . Here's the thing . I don't like That .

I mean we're better or worse angry at you for dumping them , jam . Is that what you're about to say ?

No , the dis ushered in a Genre of songwriting from the women's perspective that I don't think needs to have happened .

It's like I am so angry . I believe , doug , we've hit the point where James gonna start getting hate mail instead of us .

Right , I would like to separate myself from . I would as well .

I'm very interested in the one He doesn't represent .

The viewpoints of this is my little tap the thing about the song is it sounds like she's almost scared , right , like there is a little bit of like I am . she's scared , she's angry , she's hard but the only thing she get , the songwriting . After this that comes like that carry underwood song . I smash the . Maybe he'll think next time before he cheats .

I think guys have been writing songs like this for a long . What was it ? Maybe , if you leave me young , i'm gonna shoot you never gonna . I mean it's with Steve Miller .

Sorry , you breaking my heart , you tore it apart . What is the Beatles ?

have . Oh yeah , I'm gonna kill her . Yeah happiness is a warm gun .

No , no , no , no , that's about something else .

That good gun is not a gun if you know what I mean .

I . Ladies and gentlemen , please get the children out of the room .

No , i don't . I agree with Doug . I think that I mean that the the line he pointed to about Why is she changing the number on the phone . Right , it's because she , if he calls up , she's gonna . She's just sucked in again .

Yeah , she's right , she's making herself too weak .

Yeah , i have a , and that's the part where I said she's actually scared like what's gonna happen to her if she's yeah starts Yeah . I went down this path .

Yeah , i mean it's a , It's a troubling song , musically I think . I mean I just In general I think and it seems really really long .

Well , that's because it does not have anything to break up the monotony right , and and whoever that guy was that told her that was It needed . It needed John Linden's portion of the song to come in and change it up .

Yeah no , you're right , But again , as I said , she's gotten the last laugh .

this song is One of her most popular songs it is and I , every time I've seen her , every time I've seen it was like a , the thing at the end where everybody claps on core . Yeah , it was a concord almost every show I ever saw and everybody , yeah well , we do have to .

Just before we move on from the song , we do have to play this . Yes , ladies , gentlemen , that's Tom Petty covering the song it means something completely different . He's gonna change the number on his phone so she won't bother It's so different and I don't think I've ever heard him sound as twangy vocalist . What the heck was that at affectation ?

was something Louisiana rain , but yeah , he's got that Louisiana rain .

That's cool .

I've never heard that before all righty , we flip her over , guys , and we got a hit . Well , not for her , but we got a hit . Passionate kisses .

Her voice is again , the song is perfect for it and you know I listen to Mary Chapin Carpenter's version today and I've heard that before and It's such a good song It's it's really good when she does , but this is a better version .

It's a great , but Chapin Carpenter just doesn't have the that well , she has a strong voice , she has a great song .

Have voice , but yeah , she's not communicating to me like this does yeah , this song so jangly , God , i love it .

I mean all it's missing . I was just showing when we were playing it showing handclaps .

And this , this song was ranked number 437 on Rolling Stones 500 greatest songs of all time . It's a fantastic song .

It's another song about poor Greg . Drummers for the long riders .

But it's just like what we're looking . I mean , it's encapsulates . Shouldn't I have that ? like just she's not going through this list of like badass things . Like shouldn't I have all this and passionate kisses ? Well , she does This ?

this strikes me . This this is what I hate is when people talk about what they deserve and I think I think children think they deserve things and They want them and they're upset . They don't get adults know what they deserve And they , every morning they wake up and thank God that they haven't gotten anything they deserve . So this is .

Look at it differently . She's listening all these things . Yeah you know , like this fantasy that she deserves would really what she wants .

It's just passion , no , that's like of all this stuff but I don't think what I want .

This isn't a . This isn't someone thanking rationally and making a list of ways or something . And the thing that gives it away is my favorite line on the whole album Pins that don't run out of ink .

Well , it is annoying when your pen runs out of ink And it's right , she's making all this list and it's .

It's like she's making a list and her pink . She goes and finds another pin and right and pins that don't run out of ink .

That's pretty funny . I love that .

Yeah , that is a lot of love this song . That song is so great that the , the .

The reason I love it is because Her voice is getting across this . This is just what I want . Why can I have this right ? and it's it to me . It's so feminine . But again .

It's also there's a detachment as to it , like she's not . One thing is love about her voice , is it does seem a little bit There . It does never goes into histrionics .

She could have said and a pen that doesn't run out of ink , you know , and she doesn't do that .

She's resigned to yeah , shouldn't I have this ?

And she she she and this is I can explain this . this is the best way to explain this song . if Her man walked in and started explaining honey , you have a lot of things , she would hate his guts and tear his eyes out . She goes just listen to me , don't try to fix everything .

It's very feminine , feminine album and it's you know , you know who .

It reminds me of a little bit . Chrissy hind has that same kind of attitude .

What do you know what ?

Yeah , do you know what ? Oh , listen to Williamson . Uh-huh , she would love to rock like Chrissy hind , but she can't but no , but they have that same attitude .

Chrissy hind is also just like unapologetic for being a certain way , and she's like look but she's not , she's not .

She's not trying to be masculine , she's like right , no she's , she's very powerful person .

I remember , did we all go see that show together . Yes , Yeah so I remember seeing her thinking That's the most in charge person I have ever seen . Yeah , and she was completely in command and she did not lose one bit of her Femininity right time She was being .

That's what I mean . That's what I mean about the Lucinda Williams Is that same sort of able to embrace that aspect of it but not be , not be .

I've got a great body . Look at me . I'm gonna , and I'm talking about how I am and it's nothing that's .

That's a , that's a Forgery .

It's not the real thing , right here's an interesting thing She said in her book about this song . She said it's influenced , significantly influenced , by Joan Armitrating .

Which I . She's another one . It's pretty .

She does . It's like the Senate Williams says things about influences . To me that never makes sense .

Well , i , yeah , i think what I think . What happens is they go through some sort of filter and come out .

Yeah , it was John Williams like John , armitrating thing is I love it when you call me names . Yeah , yeah , what is that about ? anyway , this is a one , so what ?

the one thing we didn't talk about , even though we mentioned the version of it , is Mary Chave and Carpenter records this in what 92 ?

34 and . Her album come on , come on and it wins .

It hits a top 10 , it wins Grammy for best country vocals and Lucinda Williams wins a Grammy for best country song for the writing . It . Is this a country song ? Oh , i think it's a country song . I think it's .

I don't know what a country song is anymore .

No , I think the phrasing of it is definitely a country song .

Shouldn't I have this ?

No , i think , I think it is .

Imagine Loretto Lynn , do it's not .

It's not that I mean it's the , it's the . It's the country that came out of that California scene .

Yeah , yeah , i don't know , I , i , i , i don't know why this is Also .

I could use the birds doing it on . Well , it's , it's a .

It's too rock and roll for country in two country for rock , yeah , but but again it's speed . This is a prime example to me of this album coming out too early , because if this song had been released in 92 or 94 , when the Mary Chave and Carpenter version was , it would have been a smash hit . Yeah it says nothing to do with who's saying it .

It seems like she's just expressing herself and She's channeling her . That's such good song writing when it sounds like you just are speaking your mind right and it turns into a song . Yeah it reminds me of what Van Morrison does .

Yeah , it really us . Just think I kept thinking through this whole album .

All right , we ready to move on to the next song , guys , which is Am I to blue ?

I .

The song really doesn't do a whole lot for me you're crazy , You're crazy . I don't know what it is , it's just . It's just kind of boring to me . The lyrics are a little trite to me . I don't really . The guitar work is nice . I like her voice quite a bit on it , but it just never moves me .

unlike the other slower Ballity songs , her voice is remarkable on this song It's perfect .

I think it's better .

I think the steel the steel guitar in the song is so fantastic and and I love the acoustic guitar a little flourish .

Oh yeah , the guitar acoustic guitar is fantastic this is something that , despite the fact that we make such a big deal out of albums at the very beginning of this podcast , when we first started , there has been something happening to me where it's even more I'm even more that way than I used to be , where I don't want to hear a song , i want to hear , right

I think that filling out the album and here's a story behind it Might help you maybe understand a little bit more .

I think so okay , but that's a sentiment that I think a lot of us have had . it's it's me , right , when you're , when you're with someone and you're You're like , oh , it's me , i've been sad and Well , you didn't realize who's actually making you sad , i don't know . to me It's , it's just a almost a cliche song and it .

Alright , then moving right along to Crescent City music . Yeah , that fiddle's so good .

This song is the one that made me fall in love with Lucinda Williams . This was the first song I ever heard by her and I was totally blown away . It's almost a perfect song .

The entry of that fiddle is the most effective fiddle entry of all time .

Well , it's about the Cajun , stuff , it's just like someone's .

It's like Q-Bitch shot his bow right through me .

Well , no , yeah , you're right Because it comes in and it's got that Cajun . But it's got that before that part of it hits that . We just heard there's that Cajun . I don't know what you call that . I asked Grace what it was called . My daughter plays a violin What that's called when a fiddle does that kind of shuffle sound that they do inside a .

I'm guessing it's Jim .

Lauderdale .

Because they sound great together .

They really do This song and this song and a song later on that we're going to talk about .

They sound fantastic together when they sing This is go ahead , Jim , the thing about this song and I don't know if this is really what it's about , but it's like .

Did we say this was a song called Chris and Sadie ?

I think so .

Which is of course New Orleans . And I haven't been able to fit the time in where New Orleans became her hometown .

No , she's going back to the Crescent City .

I know She's she's reliving .

So when she said her mom was in Mandeville , she's not talking about a town , she's talking about .

What is a town ?

Yeah , but she's talking in the song about an institution you know , And so I don't boo who like JM . But the song .

I'm so Manly , but apparently my testosterone level prevents me from being able to create tears .

But this It's a great song .

I told you that , that I was going to tell you my favorite song . It's either this or the next one And it goes back and forth and I can never . I can never decide And both of them have the same effect on me .

It's so weird how this , this song , will take you back to something .

It takes me back to Austin . At the same time , the sound came .

And that's the reason why I mean you described this before . It's like a bucket of cold water being poured over my head .

Just go ahead And you know and listen to it now It makes me even sadder because that hometown I used to have is gone , is completely erased . I mean , Austin's not what it used to be And I can't tell . I don't get sad anymore . But if I did , I can't say , oh , let's see how you do when we get to Austin . It's not there anymore .

So you got , you got to look for it . There's still places .

Well , you can . Yeah , it's don't feel like it did before , but she's such a master with this song And I love it when she's her in the background , singers are proclaiming her brother knows where the best bars are . She's so defiant and so excited to be back home .

Is this one where she's going across the ?

Yeah , punch a train bridge .

Yeah , when you go across that bridge , there's not a lot else to do but think and drive and hope you don't run out of gas And you know that she , it's like a landmark she goes OK , i'm here , 26 miles more and .

I get on the other side of this . It's my turf and you blues . Yeah , you'll might as well find a comfortable place in this swamp to sleep , because you're staying here . You can't come with me .

Not where . That's a fantastic song .

This is a . This is one of the . I would put this in the top 20 songs ever written .

And this is also a song that I have a hard time listening to . once it Yeah . One criticism I have is the ending . It seems abrupt and unfinished at the end .

Yeah , I'll agree with you And doesn't ?

it doesn't just sort of fade out ? It does , but it's the fiddle is sort of playing and it fades out , Yeah .

I don't , i can't put my finger on why . it seems abrupt and unfinished Tell you what it is There's ?

there's a song , a rush song , i think it's called different strings . I may be getting it wrong , but there's a song on the album we talked about Different waves where it fades out and it seems abrupt because it seems like something interesting is about to occur and you don't want that to stop .

You want to . You want the song to continue . That's probably so you can hear it .

And I felt I oddly enough felt that way when I was listening to the song recently and the end came up I thought about that rush song and I thought this is this you want . you don't want this to fade out right now .

No , right , right , It's , it's , yeah , that's , it's a good point . Yet I agree with that .

Sorry to bring up rush .

That's all right . I'm so in love with that song . I don't care if I'm doing it , you do a pound rush .

What You can do a pound rush on the hashtag .

Someone say Neil Young .

She did love Neil Young . There we go , we got it All right , all right . So Doug's possible other favorite song side of the road .

I want to know the touch of my own stand against the sun , against the wind . I walked out in a field . The grass was high . I brushed against my legs .

I just stood and looked out at the old man . This is the song with the most manipulative D minor in the entire world . When she goes , when it drops , and she goes only for a minute or two . I'm undone by that minor chord and her voice and her voice again , she jumps back right into it .

It's only like two beats that she goes that D minor and then it just jumps back .

This is one of her favorite songs .

What should be ? It should be .

This is a marvelous song . The fiddle is . I don't think it was played by human being .

Does he sound that way when he plays with JJ Kale ? I don't know .

Musically , it's the most interesting song too .

And it's again . It's such a girl song .

It is .

I just need time alone .

I mean , that fiddle is just freaking heartbreaking .

And the thing about she's looking at a ranch house and she's coming up with this idea of an old couple that lives there and how they've been together for years . When they go to bed at night , she pulls down her hair and she's just going through this whole deal based on the fact that there's just this ranch house there And well , she's doing something .

And then it's like what else ? What else could I do ? What else ? The Big Red Sun song .

This is one of the songs , though , that I can listen to , and I hear the bands that came after this album . I hear this song influencing other bands and people who embrace this whole . You know Americana sentiment going forward . This song has that .

It's like a foundational tune , if you will , and I don't even know what I would . I would not even categorize it as something , because it's too confusing to categorize . Well , it's definitely American , i mean you're not , you're . Americana , but when she was putting it out that that wasn't a big deal .

It wasn't , but that's my point . So in the early nineties , when all these other bands were like , that was the it genre and all the bands that signed , you can hear this song and what they were doing . That's right .

And when this came out , everybody goes what do we do with this ? What is this , What ? what track do we put ?

it on . She makes it . I just want to take a brief aside there . She makes a big point about that , a lot about her early career . I don't know nobody could like she's two countries , every one of those bands that was that doing that at this time had that same exact Every band . I mean Jason the scorcher's you liked them , but did they get an airplay ?

I mean I do . I thought about Jason and the scorcher's a lot .

Yeah , same with the long riders green on red .

It makes you wish for those radio stations we hear about where they would have Dean Martin and then they would have Bob .

Dylan , or I mean they're all over the place .

Right .

So anyway , it's a great song , okay .

I don't know if I can go on .

Really Well . There's a lot of love , that's . There's a price to pay , Doug Yep .

And I believe it won't be easy to repair this time , because it's my home and there's a price you have to pay .

This is the most country song on the album and I wish they had country fight it a little bit more . I mean , her voice is achingly beautiful , but I wish there was like a pedal steel in there . Somehow that was just . It's like a Hank Williams song , it just like a Hank Williams song . It just should add some more .

This is my favorite vocals on the album . Yeah , i love , i dance this song .

The vocals are great .

I dance with my wife to the song . I love this song is it's up there with one of my favorite songs on the album I'm a sucker for waltz . I love this song .

I think it's position on this album is so important . And it may just be me , but I'm devastated . I mean , I'm barely able to continue driving or walking or whatever I'm doing . And this song eases me out of what I had in a playful fashion And I appreciate it a lot .

It's got that . I mentioned this earlier , but this song in particular has got that Loretta Lynn sort of attitude about it . Hey , buddy , you broke my heart , but guess what ? You're the one that's going to suffer .

You're going to miss it , exactly , exactly . That's why . That's why it's so necessary for me after that other song and her voice is it's remarkable on its voice .

Everything is great except there's just should have some difference .

I think it's . I think it's Daniel Perfect . I wouldn't change anything .

I'm fine with what they have on there , but I think I'd be much less interested in this song with someone else singing it . I think her voice does quite a bit to help me enjoy this song .

That's a good question . I think you might be right , because the her vocal performance is just , it's just and it's half the story . Yeah , and that may be why it makes sense not to have more instrumentation on it , because it's just , it's the simple wall speed with her and tearing it up .

I just I'm the red one can do a lot .

I see bear light bulbs around the concrete floor every time I find a van dango .

I hear this song and that's what I see , yeah .

No answer . I agree with you , yeah .

Another wonderful number .

Yeah , all right , and the last song on the album , a cover , if you will . I asked for water and what did you do , guys ?

Got unleaded .

You gave me gasoline . Oh , gasoline , yes .

Or .

Get me Right .

Justor Burnett wrote it , but I think you're right .

I think it's a Hell in Love song Sounds like a Hell in Love song . I like the way she does this song . I think that the instrumentation is right and everything , but it doesn't need to be on the album .

I don't know if I agree with that settlement , as much as I think it doesn't need to end the album .

I think its placement is very odd . I think price to pay should have been the end .

It's an odd play . It's almost like she's trying to remind people .

Like hey .

I'm a blues person .

Remember this . There's no explanation .

It's not a bad song .

No , but I don't need it . I don't need it on this album .

Well , it stands out like a sore thumb .

And I certainly don't need to end on that . It's so inappropriate . I agree with that The subject matter matches , but this is not what she's for And the price to pay . It's like there was a bow on the thing And so on , untied the bow and shoved this into the box after it had been wrapped . But I don't despise it . I would go to the bathroom .

See , i would do that for the song that ends side two , but I feel like women would beat me up on the way to the bathroom , so I'd have to sit there and hold it .

Well , if your wife was in prison , you wouldn't have to wait . She's not been in prison .

Not for a while .

She's on early release .

Yeah that's good . She should have passionate kisses , all right well . so that's the record . That is the record .

It's interesting when this album came out in 88 , it didn't chart at all And then , when it was reissued in 2014 , it reached number 39 . Because people fell in love with Lucinda Williams at that point They knew you know it's funny when I was playing this my wife knows passionate kisses , but not because she heard it in 1988 .

Oh yeah .

Yeah .

Well , that's the . Have y'all ever gone to see her or anything like that .

Well , we've been on a couple of those cruises where she was there She's played , now she's . They've been both of them , i think , or maybe the first one were they both post-stroke . They might have both been post-stroke .

So she had a stroke in 2020 ?

Yeah , and I think that's right after this album got released .

I used to see her a lot in Austin And it was always with other people and things like that And Why is that a ?

cracked band You know interesting timing .

CBS This Morning ran a story on her on Sunday .

I know I watched that .

Which was interesting that we were doing this album , but she talks about how she's gotten significantly better . Her only problem is she can't play the guitar right now because of it . Yeah , you know it's . I mean , it's sad , but I'm glad she's continuing on , and I've heard her perform a couple of times , and while it's not 100% , it's still good .

Yeah .

So she had a falling out .

So the first time she did it was with Gurf Morlicks and she had a falling out with them . They haven't spoken since then Is that right , Yeah , he said . I read an interview in the Austin American Statesman . He said you know , I just started looking at my life and realized , unfortunately , I would just be happier if I wasn't dealing with her .

Well , they're next to her album after this , which has one of my favorite sweet old world . Well , that's a connection .

That was on the album we did by Amy Lou Harris . Yeah , i kept trying to say Amy Lou Harris and I kept saying this to Williams , but Amy Lou Harris covered that song .

I will say I don't know , It's hard to find . There's two or three clips , but right after this album she was on Austin City Limits . It's good , It's good , But you can't like . There's maybe only three songs from that performance that I've been able to see . But it's really good .

But her hair is brown .

No , no , no , that's a later one , That's later .

This is this ? That's when she did it 89 or 90 .

And she's . Yeah , she was on season 15 and I think she's been on three times , maybe three or four times , But as she's playing this album , she sounds fantastic , The band sounds great . Everything about it sounds really really good .

Well , she was on that short live PBS show called Sessions at West 57 . And she did a lot of the songs from Was it around this time . This is 90 . This is 99 . But she had just like this amazing band behind her And this is where I , we were talking about this earlier she just started becoming more and more self-conscious .

What seems to me that it's really vital for her to not write with any self-awareness whatsoever just to And not again , not to put too much emphasis on somebody when we're talking about the main artists here . But I wonder how much GERF Morlick's leaving the band like changed that dynamic . Yeah , i mean you got .

It's like the same thing with , you know , robert Plant being untethered from Jimmy Page .

I mean Jimmy .

Page . Robert Plant definitely focused Jimmy Page on . I mean , jimmy Page hasn't done crap since , anyway , yeah .

Well , good album guys . This is the time when we rate the album . So I'm going to ask you guys for two ratings . One is your critical rating , which is just based on your sort of factual understanding of the album , critics understanding of the album .

I'm going to go with my cold hearted critics rating first . I'm going to give it a four zero , and that might be a little bit surprising . I'm not sure this is the . I don't know what I was going to say . it's not the best introduction to Lucinda Williams , but that's not right . This is a very good introduction to Lucinda Williams as a songwriter And as a .

Well , just real quick to comment on that , considering two people made top 20 singles off of songs on this album I think songwriter is . Yeah , that's that was what she's doing around with a notebook . Okay , thanks , jam , do mine next , And then we'll go with Doug's as he picked the album .

All right , My critics . critics thing is hard because I don't know how to measure how much this changed everything after it came out . I'm not in a position where I can know that .

That's because you didn't listen to music after 1988 .

No , it's , I just don't have the . yeah , that's part of it , Anyway . so , critics , I give it a four . five My personal rating , which is highly subjective , which is why we do that , so we can free ourselves for our critics rating . I love the cover of this album where it looks like she's trying to get something off her jacket .

No , you know , it's funny , A couple of bands that I like the D-Railers and BR549 , both of them had their name and their title , Like one of them was here come to D-Railers and the other one is I think this is BR549 after their fourth or fifth album It was strange They got a major label deal in that set . Their debut on the major label was that .

Anyway , okay , Oh yeah , Thanks , Doug .

Oh yeah , that seems so perfunctory .

Thanks , Doug , Oh yeah .

No no no .

Doug , thanks for that . It was a good pick . I appreciate it . I learned something about myself .

So we've come to the point of the podcast where you like to cater to our younger listeners , and for that we go to our youngest member of This Is Vinyl Time By a matter of months , tony Slagle , who's got his ear to the ground , knowing what the kids are listening to . So , tony , do you have a recommendation for us today ?

I have a fantastic recommendation . I was holding this off for maybe another time , but I think this is perfect because the lead singer of this band also has a reputation for being a little difficult , a little hard-headed a little unpleasant sometimes much as Lucinda Williams has developed that I am going to recommend the songs of .

Great .

Who's Doug Song ? Who's Doug Song ? Well , he was in the Sir Douglas Quintet . He was in the Texas Tornados . He is a San Antonio Texas songwriter of the highest degree who is very respected throughout the state .

A child prodigy on violin and pedal steel . He's the soul of Texas music He passed away about 20 years ago or so .

Yeah , and he looked the same the whole time he was alive . I know .

Well , thank you for that recommendation , tony . I want to remind all our loyal listeners that we have a contest going on right now where we are trying to come up with a new tagline for our podcast . Our old tagline was short talks about long players , but we just did another podcast where I think we are twice as long as the album that we're talking about .