Welcome to Conversations With. My name is Shaylee Huggendorn and I live with Bipolar II Disorder. Sharing with others is healing both individually and collectively. Sharing our stories will educate others, bring more understanding, shed more light, and smash more stigma. Our voices need to be heard. Our stories aren't over yet. This is Bipolar. Hey everyone, just before we start the show, I wanted to let you know that some of these episodes are the episodes called Going Deeper.
I started recording them a year and a half ago, go, not sure if I was going to start a Patreon and then subscriptions came along at Instagram and I decided that the subscribers are going to get these episodes four weeks before everybody else. But I have a whole backlog of them. So I wanted to start sharing them with you all. They are inspiring and powerful and interesting and brave. And what I love about it is that there is an episode telling this person's entire story.
And then we do the going deeper on a specific topic. And so when these come up, I really encourage you to go back and watch the original conversations with episode with each of these guests and then going deeper because you might get confused or you might just want to know more about them. And so another thing is you might hear language like Patreon or you might hear me say, we just recorded or the last recording because I wasn't sure what I was going to do with them at the time.
And so, yeah, I'm so excited to get them out there. I will be probably putting up around one a month. And so this is the first one I'm going to share with you. So take care of yourself, take some deep breaths and... Enjoy the show. Let's go deeper together. This is Bipolar. And I just recorded the most beautiful podcast with my new bestie, Bassie. And could you just tell us who you are? I'm Bassie Ickby. I'm a author, New York Times bestselling author. I always forget to say that.
And I live with bipolar 2 disorder. order yeah yeah and she tells us all about so if I was you I'd stop now go listen to that one come back to this but I don't want to boss you around I'm just saying I was saying in our last podcast that Betsy's book was the second one that I wrote and the one it just meant made me feel seen it made me feel seen and it made me want to seek healing and management and all the help because I felt like if someone else can, then I can too.
And also just really just gave me language. And I just wanted to talk a little bit today. So I'm wondering what made you decide to write the book? And could you tell me a little bit about your process? So the book that I started writing is not the book I ended up writing. I felt a lot of self-pressure to do this, this like self-help-y kind of like, this is how I got here type thing. And I was doing that in the middle of one of my worst, the worst depressive episodes of my life.
And at the same time, I was trying to write this weird self-help book. I was also writing these letters and like notes to my friends and my family. And like in the other podcast, I told you that I was like, I tried. And I was writing about, this is how hard I've tried. These are all the things that I've gone through.
I've had like close friends that I've lost. And I've always been like the, it feels like the notes that they leave are insufficient to like really, I'm not judging, like just for people to know like how exhausting it's been.
Like how much they try because I hate this idea like oh it's a selfish you just like people are they they've tried for a really long time they've done a lot to try and so I wanted to be able to say I've worked really hard these are all of the things that have happened and these are the ways that's happened and so I I was having a hard time writing the the book that I was being paid to write. And, and there was a moment when I was taking the medication, I started feeling better.
And then I was like looking at it and I was like, and I was looking at it and I thought to myself, what do you want people to really know? What do you, what is it that you really, really want people to know? And I've been told, and I read a book, a memoir writing book that said, if you have a bad memory, don't write a memoir. And I was like, I remember thinking. Well, that's not true because I just remember things differently.
I can't remember the dates and times, but I remember exactly how I felt when this thing happened. And I can write about that. And I can write from that place. I can't picture an apple in my head, but I can write what an apple feels like. I can make somebody else understand what an apple is because I can't see it. So I have an opportunity here to write the book that I needed when I was diagnosed, which which is for somebody to not, the book is a mirror for people who need to see themselves.
And it's a window for people who need to understand other people in their lives and see them. I didn't want anybody to read the book and put it down and like, I don't even know what she's talking about. Or that was a waste of my time. I mean, of course, there's some Amazon reviews that said that, but for the most part, it's, I didn't want anybody to walk away and still be like, I still don't understand what it is that these people go through.
At least one of these stories, at least one of them is going to like resonate, make you understand like the coworker that comes in like in a bad mood every day, like for a half a second, maybe think about whether or not they could sleep last night or something like that. Your mother, who was kind of distant and unable to like really show you affection, what was really happening? It could be that people are just jerks.
Could be. But the off chance that they are not, let's see what's also possibly contributing to the way that they behave and the way that they show up in the world. And it's not, it always sounds like so benevolent and I did this gift, but it's selfish. I wanted people to like understand me. And if they understand me, then if they understand themselves, cool. But I want people to understand me so that I wouldn't have to explain it.
And because I didn't have the, I didn't have, it's very difficult to sit and have a conversation with somebody and try to get them to understand something like this. if you don't understand it. You have to make them live inside of it. And I wanted people to live inside of these experiences. There's a story. I call them stories. I call them nonfiction short stories. It's labeled essays because you can't call anything nonfiction short stories. There's no section in the library for that.
But there's a, there's a, there's a story right in the middle and it's the one that is the time block where it's like, I get off the plane and like eight, 10, like it's breaking down. It's like time intervals. And, and it's supposed to show just how much happens in your brain between two minutes. Like, it's like 801, it's a whole like page and a half of things. And it's 805 because that's all the stuff that happens during that time.
And I want it to like document that. And I remember my editor was like, it's just, it's too long. We have to cut it, make it shorter. I was like, the whole thing goes in the book or the whole thing is out of the book. Like there's no, there's no, there's no cutting this down. And she said, I remember clearly she said, but it's just that I showed it to some people and like in the middle of it, they just get so exhausted. And I'm like, yes, exactly.
I too was exhausted going through that. that people are supposed to be exhausted reading that. There's a story, I can't remember, I get them confused, the names, either this is what happens or this is what it feels like, that it's pretty much just a run-on sentence for like 10 pages, and it just runs on and it just goes in and out of these thoughts and, you know, whatever.
And people will be like, a friend of mine was like, people will read it and they'll say, I could not stop my mind from like racing as I'm racing through these words. And I'm like, yes, I too could not stop my brain from racing. So a lot of it was just trying to get people to live inside of what all these situations mean. I wrote about some relationships that were affected because I didn't know what my diagnosis was. So I was behaving in ways that were confusing to them.
I was living in situations that had I been had a stronger sense of my mental health, I would not be in because I would be able to write. Like all these things sort of just come together. The stuff about my family and my parents shows up because it informs the way the rest of my life went. The men that I chose, the ways in which I held myself afraid of disturbing the air in the room.
So all of that like is the thread that runs through the book and the reason why it's written the way that it is as far as like the perspectives and the third person second person like even sometimes like within the same paragraph it goes from third to second second to first and it's because so much of it feels like an out-of-body experience and in order for me to fully write about it I had to write about it either as though
I was telling somebody what happened or telling or reminding somebody what happened to them, reminding myself what happened, or in order for me to be as honest as I possibly could, I had to tell it and detach myself from it so I could look at it and say, okay, this was really difficult because they were walking through this here and they saw this. And then like being able to like change the vantage point so that I could understand what I was doing, why I was doing it.
Because in the moment, in the moment, like when we're in the midst of that fog. Or in that hurricane or that Ferris wheel, we can't see anything except for. What's sort of like bouncing off of us. So having to like pull myself out of it and like. Very carefully examine these experiences that I lived through, but couldn't remember because I was so balled up in, in, inside myself.
So all of that is to be able to tell the story clear because the way our minds work, it would be very strange and inauthentic to write this straight narrative of like, and then I wake, woke up and then I did this thing. And then that thing, like, that's not what it happens. Like your brain functions in a certain way. One of the best compliments I ever, that I've got, like a segment of it was published in the New York Times before the book came out.
And I got this email from this woman who just lost her son. And she said, for the longest time when he was up all night, I would say, just lay down, close your eyes, go to bed, like just Just lie down, calm yourself down. She said, I had no idea the things that could possibly be running through his mind. Like I had absolutely no idea that his brain was doing so much work that it was impossible for his body to fall asleep.
And that just, that's it. Like I want people to understand why just go to bed does not work for us or just get up and take a shower just doesn't work for us.
I wanted people to live inside of it. just this feeling of mania because people just think you're extra happy or you're you know this kind of thing but i'm gonna if it's okay with you i'm gonna resize everything is beautiful, until it's not because then the insomnia sits in and you're stacking days on top of each other adding a new one before the last one ends and you find yourself unable to settle down and focus on anything for wrong you have to write the
book tonight before you can sleep or eat or leave the house or do anything but first you have to call your friends and your sister and the guy you just met and tell them how much you love them. Tell each one that you've never felt this way about any other human being in the entire world. And you're so lucky and so glad and so grateful to have such amazing, magical person in your life. And you believe it because it's true until it isn't. And then it goes into the other thing. I was like.
I was like, yes. And I just read it like that. And I was just, what you just said, you did that. You brought people right into it. And I've recommended to people that I love that want to understand me to read it. Like, don't just read this if you live with bipolar disorder. In fact, it will comfort those people, which is beautiful and amazing. But the amazing opportunity is sharing this with people that don't get it. And that is so good. I have a question.
Did you write it like Fast and Furious or during the hypomanic episode? I know you said some. Or in a depressed episode or both? Or did it take a long time? Tell me about that.
Some of them some of it's weird to say 10 years or it took four months i i can't i can't say because a lot of it i thought i was talking about earlier where it's like broken down into time increments yeah i wrote that on the plane that i got on to go to i think it was detroit that i was going to because i was like that's the first time i was like something's wrong i don't know what it It is, but this, that whole 24 hours I just experienced,
it just does not, this is, this is that I've never experienced anything like that where I was going through all of this. And so I just documented it and I broke it down into like the time. And so that was written almost 20 years ago. One that you just read was written within like the four or five month period that I was like actively writing the book.
There were stories that I've always wanted to tell and didn't know how to and then I figured out how to one of my favorite stories like a war because I really just like the way that it's written I like so I like the way I wrote it no but I like the way that it it tells the story about these two people who are individually battling something and then collectively are trying to like figure themselves out not knowing and then how that collides and and and and how not knowing what you're
experiencing and not knowing what the other person experiences. Just causes this like destruction that didn't need to be there if if people understood themselves i don't know i don't know how else to put it but it also like depicts like that confusion like Like, I don't even know where I am right now. Am I in Brooklyn? Am I in Chicago? Like, where am I? And it's, so that one I wrote in like one sitting, but I've been thinking about it for a really long time.
Yeah. So there's some that I wrote like just like immediately. And there's others that I've just been thinking about for a really long time. And I just, I was thinking about them for a really long time, but because I was, I was, I was told that I had to write in a first person narrative. There's just no way for me to tell the story. So once I gave myself permission to tell it however it came out, it came out the way that it was supposed to come out.
So there was a lot of people ask me and I can't sit here and be like, I made these conscious decisions to do this and to do that because the book just showed up the way that it did because I've been thinking about it for a long time.
Time the the there's a later section in the in the in the in the essay that you just read, where i called this person and that person and then i'm back to like and they haven't called me back so i call them again and then again to make sure that they're not mad at me and then i like just like and i call to see if they block me like this whole like cycle that people don't really hear about they just hear about the crazy like she called me 200 times crazy like that.
That's the that's the story we get and we don't get the this is why that happened like are you upset with me I'm calling to see if you're upset with me and I'm calling to see if you blocked me now I'm calling to see if you're upset that I called you so like you don't mean like that's and then you're like like how dare you and I'm you're not gonna call me back wait let me call you in case that like did something happen to you are you like that's that's you don't get that part.
Of the story we just get the this woman called her boyfriend 472 times and yeah crazy you know it's like that well the way you wrote that exclamation mark that seemed aggressive like you met that's a man the where you put things or you or the dot dot dot okay they're writing an essay about how they want to break up with our friendship they usually write okay okay k-a-y and they said k okay so clearly you hate me and i've done something horrible to offend you and now it's just
one of the worst it's just over people could say to me and i had to tell my friends this please don't ever do this to me is where it says like we need to talk i have something to talk about when i see you tomorrow i'm like do not do that to me frenzied the entire time i will make up this backstory meanwhile yeah i wanted to find out what dressing you used on that salad it then pout luck and I'm like are you yeah I need you to tell me every every information and then tell me what
we're going to talk about when you see each I need all of that all of that one of the I don't know if I talk about in this section but when I realized that I was in this emotionally abusive situation was this is somebody who would like call me at a certain time between a certain time like for months and months and months to the point where I was like. Always at that time, I knew the time difference. So between three and 6 AM, my body is like tuned for like the phone ringing.
And I had said before I'd said, you know, your 9 AM, 10 AM is like my three, 4 AM. Like that's like, don't, you know, whatever. And he'd still, he'd still call me and call me and call me during that time for like six months. And then he just stopped. Even though you don't want. Yeah. Yeah. And then he just stopped. And then I was like, I asked him, I was like, why did you stop calling me like during that time? And he also was doing like these good morning, good night type things.
And he just stopped. And I asked like, why did you stop calling me, you know, during that time? He's like, well, you told me that it was too early for you. I was like, yeah, I told you that six months ago and you didn't respect that.
Bad like I'm just like bracing myself and it just like triggered this like spiraling anxiety and and like I'm like calling and like you know once it was this person who was chasing me and all of a sudden I'm like not even sure I even like you that much but like now I'm like what happened what changed what did I do and like that level of anxiety and knowing that for normal people that's it's bad. Like it's, it's, it's, it's difficult to deal with. For us, it's a whole different
like conversation. It's a whole different relationship with yourself. Like it's so much that happens and people don't fully understand those kinds of things. So writing the book, the way that I did, how I did, it was important for me to understand or for people to understand that.
Why you want to talk to me you know like keep the pattern if you yeah yeah yeah whoever feel okay this is my like core wound do you ever i feel like i like everybody more than they like me and if they like people don't answer people don't then it's like see you you like that you like them way more than they like you you're not important to them and it's like even though i know now and And I have like, I have found my people and all of that. It's always this little fear, right?
Like I've upset them. Like I care more than they do. Mine is when it comes to relationships where I'm going to say nine times out of 10, if not 10 times out of 10, they like me first. And I'm just kind of like, okay, okay, okay. And then I have to convince myself that I like them. And then I somehow, it becomes bigger than that. All of a sudden I love them, but I don't like, I do not. I promise I don't, but I'm also like, don't want you to stop loving or caring about me.
So I've got to like match that energy because if I don't act like I do, they're going to stop. And then inevitably not addicted, but like that it's addiction. No, it's an addiction. Oh, it's an addiction. It's an addiction. Yeah. It's an addiction. I remember I asked. An old therapist my my she left a couple like a year ago jesus i miss her jennifer's fantastic.
I was like is there a love addiction because i know there's a sex addiction and i know that there are all there's like a love addiction that and she's like it's not called that it's called something else oh and i in this never-ending diagnosis and learning more and more about your mental health. I learned about attachment styles and I have anxious attachment.
That's it. All anxious attachment that all of that, like, I don't like you, but I need you to keep liking me because if you stop, that means there's something wrong with me. So what does it do? What do I do that makes you want to like me? I'm going to have to keep doing that. Keep doing that until I'm exhausted. Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Yeah. I feel like that's all of my dating before my husband so I almost married someone else and like we had broke up and I was like why am I even with him what we were together for like two and a half years and then I'll tell you about it together and then like he asked me to marry him and I liked the idea of it more than I liked him and I but I didn't know that at the time and then having anxious attachment and then he broke it off and took off and I was like that idea the
anxious attachment that idea that I was chosen and unchosen. I have worked on it so much, but it is there. It is. Yeah. I don't want to get into all of my business, but like this recent thing is almost exactly that. Somebody who, and then came back and then they left the first time. So now I've got to like, and it's the same thing. Like somebody asked you to marry them. You don't want to, I don't want to marry you? I don't want to marry anybody, least of all you.
This is not a good idea. This is a bad idea. The worst, the absolute worst. We didn't even know each other that long, but he asked and. What it would be rude to say no. And what if nobody ever asks me again? So I have to say yes, obviously. And then I'm telling all my business. He cheated, got another girl pregnant, married her. So that ended that he came back a year ago, destroyed my entire life.
Like that's the the depression episode that's the anxious attachment literally lost 30 pounds i have this like i developed this how you call it it's like a you know when you're crying a lot and then and you start like hyperventilating that's how i breathe now like my anxiety's gone to like every once in a while just yeah because i don't know i'm holding my breath it it's it's come to a head like it's it's i'm removed out of it like once i discovered that i was
being emotionally abused i I was like, oh, okay, time to go and write about it. But it was the same situation. Like him returning was like, okay, I'm not terrible. Like he came back, like he has all these regrets and he's apologizing and he's telling me all the things. And I still don't like him. As a matter of fact, he's worse off now than he was back then. Like I've done so much and he's done worse. So I definitely don't want him or want anything to do with him, but he's back though.
And like that has to mean something right and he's telling me all these things like i don't love him i don't care but i don't really like him i'm not attracted to him at all but he's here and it means that i wasn't broken back then because clearly he came back so i'm nothing wrong with me and like i have to figure out a way to make myself feel something in order to justify what happened back then because it was true love clearly you know what I mean so like all that stuff is like and I
know that a lot of people go through things like that but I don't think they understand what happens to us when we go through things like that it's different yeah it it shake like I said I lost 30 pounds it shakes up your entire life without you even like realizing it yeah like I had to move back in with my mom I couldn't eat I couldn't sleep yeah it fainted broke my nose because I fainted on the stairs like it was wild and then people expect so I lie because that I'm feeling better
because people expect you and that's humiliating because there yeah he was off doing whatever clearly not yeah yeah yeah old friend feel you you have it's the lying to other people because. They know it's a bad idea. They know that you should be over it and you should be over it. And the fact that you can't get over it, like clearly broken, absolutely broken, something wrong, something wrong with me.
And it's just stuff like that. Like, I'm very happy that you're, that you're partnered and you're, because it makes me feel, I get so pleased when people are able to maintain relationships like that. It gives me hope, not that I want that because I don't, but it gives me hope that there are people who do want that, who have brains like ours, and they're able to get it. Like I tell people all the time, I don't think it's for me, but I don't want
anybody else to think that it's not for them. So all these examples are so cool. Like I think it's so cool that these examples of like partners that understand, that are secure, that are helping you and like understand what you're going through. It's priceless. It's so, so important. It's so important.
It really is. And it's interesting because, you know, if I think if I didn't, you know, get better or have periods of euthymia or whatever they call when you're symptom free or whatever, because I've looked over my husband now because like that exciting, explosive, steady. And I'm like, like, I remember like telling him, like, we have to have a fight. Like, we just like, no, and I needed the drama and I need it was the smartest
thing I ever done. And I could have been like, you know, because you're always for the excitement, the excitement, the excitement. And he's not not exciting, but the drama. Right. And I was like, it's a it's a steady thing. I mean, he has things, but a steady thing. I know it's always like, you're so lucky. This is my doctor said this for reals. And I can't get another one. Remember, they're free and they take. Oh, God. Yeah.
You're so lucky he puts up with you. I was like, dude, do you want a list of. No she didn't say that it was a dude oh okay that makes sense.
All right that makes sense of course he would of course he'd say that yeah so then i was like wow that's one of my non-negotiables that's not my non-negotiables i i will not have i have a male psychiatrist i will not have a male therapist yeah i will not have a male therapist wow yeah that really that's trash that's trash wow yeah that was pretty bad well friend i could talk to you forever and hopefully we can stay in touch because i absolutely totally hold you you're we're
besties so yeah is what it is where in canada are you i'm in vancouver vancouver okay like two hours away from seattle oh so basically seattle yeah basically basically just over there we same weather yeah i've never been to canada but i've had like a weird obsession with Degrassi since I was like nine, like all stages. I even watched it when I was too old to watch, like a couple of years ago when it came back, like I'm invested in these, in these children. I'm invested.
So yeah, I've always wanted to go to like, go to Toronto, but like. That's my husband around there. Yeah. Oh, really? We're a big city, but it's like, you can have like the city exciting stuff. It's like Seattle. Yeah. But then you can go out and be crunchy in the forest, right? Where Toronto's like, just like cementy, but it's. And we're the warmest area. Like everyone thinks that I'm all. Oh, really? I just assumed you were cold.
So we're rainy and cold, but we don't get that wild snow like everywhere. Oh. I grew up with that. But yeah, everyone thinks everywhere in Canada has. Yeah, I know I did. It snows like. Americans have no, like Canada's right there. I know nothing about Canada. Like where are we learning in schools? I would love to. I would love to. Wish that I would have sold the book I actually
wrote. because I think that it would have gotten a lot more, like, like nobody, like there's no international publishing. And I'm hoping the second book allows it to be more international. So who knows? It might come to Vancouver for the second book tour. Oh, if you're interested, I could plan you a book. Oh, same. Thanks again for tuning in. You can find video versions of This is Bipolar on our YouTube channel.
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