Music. Conversations with. My name is Shaylee Hugendorn and I live with bipolar 2 disorder. Sharing with others is healing both individually and collectively. Sharing our stories will educate others, bring more understanding, shed more light and smash more stigma. Music. Our voices need need to be heard. Our stories aren't over yet. This is Bipolar. Program ever started where she teaches about bipolar and self-stigma. She runs groups.
And so I really wanted to share this with the entire community because it is so good and so helpful. I wanted you all to hear it. So without further ado, come and listen to the show. If you want to hear more episodes like this, go to Instagram, sign up. It's $6.99 a month. We have a group chat. We have a once a month support meeting that we hang out on Zoom and extra content, which includes episodes like this. So without further ado, here's the show.
Hi, everyone. Welcome to the section I'm calling This is Bipolar, Conversations About. And I have Andrea back. We just had go back and listen to the other episode because we talked about her story. We talked about her thoughts. She gave amazing, amazing practices. I've learned so much. So go back and listen to that. We wanted to talk more about this because it was just a powerful thing for me to think about. And Andrea is an expert in this area.
And so Andrea, in case someone hasn't listened to the episode before, can you tell us who you are? Sure. My name is Dr. Andrea Vasiliev. My pronouns are she, her. I hold a doctorate in psychology. I have lived with bipolar disorder for over 25 years, and I am the creator of the program Overcoming Self-Stigma in Bipolar Disorder, which is a group program that's being used in clinics and hospitals around the world.
It's currently in clinical trials, and it is designed to address self-stigma in bipolar disorder. So that's one thing I do, and I'm a speaker, a writer, an advocate and a stigma warrior. Yes, I love it. I that is it. That is really powerful work, right? We're always talking about, you know, I am talking about outer stigma.
And just like in the past two years, thinking about the, you know, how our culture has, you know, presented bipolar disorder is so extreme at one stereotype, usually in a bad light. And historically, we've been treated, you know, criminals, that kind of thing.
So it's no wonder that we have things inside of us that we that have that we've soaked in and beliefs that even though we know them not to be true, come up and I've just spent and still do, you know, this, this cleaning out of ideas, hurtful and harmful ideas. And so I think this is such powerful and like groundbreaking work that you're doing. And so I just want to hear, hear more about it. But where I thought we would start is defining self stigma.
I would love if you could do that because the one on your website, so good. So we can even take it one step back and define stigma. So stigma. Stigma is the negative beliefs that we hold about a group of people. Simple as that. The negative beliefs we hold about a group of people, there's a lot more that goes into it, prejudice, discrimination, labeling, et cetera, et cetera, but that's the core of the issue here.
So self-stigma then is the negative beliefs we hold about ourselves because we have bipolar disorder. Yeah. Yeah. I love how you broke it down. It can get so complicated. Yeah. And the thing is stigma and self-stigma are really largely academic topics, right? You look into writing about stigma and self-stigma. A lot of it is like super intense academic journals and stuff and that's all well and good and we need that research.
But I really am passionate about bringing awareness of these problems to people in ways that they can use some tools to apply it to their everyday lives and actually live better. Yeah. Yeah. So what started this? What started it for you? My dissertation. There you go. There you go. That's the topic you decided.
So did you you notice in your life or did you notice a pattern of self-stigma so the opposite I saw it in my peers I was a peer group leader long before I was a grad student or a doctor and I saw it in my peers and I was diagnosed so young I was diagnosed at 14 and because I was diagnosed so young I never had a concept of myself of my adult self without a mental health diagnosis interesting It's just like, I have red hair, I have bipolar disorder. Yeah.
Yeah. Which would be very different from me, right? Because 32 years of not knowing. Yeah. So that's a lot of things to dig up because you knew someone almost your whole life. life disorder. Yeah. One of the ways that self-stigma develops is through the internalization process. So we are aware of these, these stigmas that the public holds about bipolar. And then we get a diagnosis. These are already in our brain kind of get activated and we internalize them and apply them to ourselves.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Tell me more about what, what that looks like for your work. I'm fascinated to hear more. So yeah, so the work that I do, I'm running these groups for this trial and they run these groups at hospitals and places and it addresses not only awareness about stigma and self-stigma, but reframing the thoughts that you might automatically be having about yourself and your bipolar. Like, for example, I'm unlovable. I'm never going to get any better. I embarrass my family.
I can't be counted on, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. These are the things that if you tune in, you might find are actually on repeat in your head, right? Yes, 100%. Yeah. And even the interesting thing is it's almost like this sneaky, sneaky little thing because, I mean, hello, I do advocacy. I'm talking about this every single day. You would think that I wouldn't deal with as much self-stigma and it'll just pop up.
And especially when my brain is lying to me when I'm when I'm depressed right I'm gonna and you're gonna love what I say next let me yes first part so yeah the program's about developing your own by the way people I am not selling anything I have given this program away for free to clinicians all over the world just so people can use it so please don't think this is like a lead-up to a sale because it's not I just want you to learn and be well so in the program we talk about.
Strengthening other parts of our identities and focusing on strengths, rewriting our own narratives. We focus on reframing some of the thoughts that come from self-stim. We talk about how to disclose your bipolar disorder, how to share it, if and when that's right for you, things like that.
So it goes through a bunch of things. But what you're saying is that when my brain is lying to me, what I've discovered in running these groups is that self-stim can actually happen in another way and have true experiences. So if someone says, I've had this This happens so many times in group. People say, but I was unreliable. Like I missed my, you know, I missed my sister's graduation, whatever it is. Like I couldn't be counted on.
But what happens is that those thoughts become distorted and they take on more meaning and more significance than they really have. Just because you missed one graduation or even two graduations, even five graduations does not mean that you are unreliable across the board. Yeah. Yeah. That's powerful. What you're saying about that. That's good language because I never know. Like, you know, I'm not science-y and also information. Like I have a really hard time with facts because I'm big idea.
So that's a really good way to explain it. Because, yeah, sometimes there is truth to things. Sometimes, like my big one is I'm too much, right? I'm too much for people. And sometimes I may overwhelm people. And sometimes it is too much but it doesn't inherently that's not about me it doesn't make me inherently unlovable right and that doesn't mean that I'm like that for everyone maybe those people aren't my people or maybe like I end up I always joke I end up being I end up adopting.
Introvert friends right so you know we know for me to ask if you know if there's capacity or we've found ways through the app Marco Polo where you do video and then they watch it when they can and then respond when they can so they understand that there's times where I might send you you know this many things and then they don't have to answer right and if they so they can I can watch it later and I know that they love me so I don't take it offensively if they don't answer
and or if I'm really intense, we picked an emoji, right? Like a heart to go back. So they're like, I've read it. I've read it. I still love you, but I don't have capacity to answer. Nice. So you're seeing nuance here. A lot of this is about seeing nuance. You're seeing the nuance that it's not that they don't care about you. It's not that you're too much. It's that at that moment, they're involved in something. At that moment, they're having an introvert moment.
Yeah. It's not all about me. That's a hard lesson. Yeah.
That's amazing that's a really really interesting and so are you allowed to talk about like what these groups look like like what it what it would look like to show up to this group and what you yeah so it's an eight-week program and ideally people come every week we learn about bipolar disorder we bust some myths we like we said we talk about rewriting our narratives because the story that we tell ourselves has an impact on how we feel about ourselves then we learn sort of the
basics like we covered here in a couple of minutes about stigma and self-stigma, the outcomes of self-stigma, which are just so many and so tragic in some ways. Self-stigma has actually been linked to worse depressive symptoms. So you're feeling bad about having depressive symptoms, you're going to have more depressive symptoms. Chew on that. That's unfair. People withdraw, that's a big outcome.
Shame, embarrassment, poor coping skills, skills not seeking help all kinds of things and then we do a little like rating of how bad your self-stigma is then we work on identifying and reframing self-stigmatizing thoughts we work on disclosure about you know who you want to tell and when and how that's art in and of itself then we talk about culture and family and how that impacts levels of stigma and self-stigma so it's cool i'm i might if
you if you guys are like oh my gosh this sounds great i'm i'm trying Trying to turn it into a workbook, right? Yes. Not happening quite yet, but I'm trying. So that'll just be able to bring it to more people. But that is, yeah, that's what we do in the groups. And it's been a really amazing experience. I've been so honored to meet so many people and just, you know, walk with them through this journey. Yeah. Wow. That's groundbreaking stuff, friend. I'm proud of you. Yay, you. Good job.
I would love to talk about what are some of the... Common, common ones that that you have heard. I know that it always helps me feel seen that I know other people have felt this way. And I know for all y'all that answered on the Instagram, there was some and it just struck me, I was expecting I mean, I'm always talking about hard things, right? I was expecting I was, I was expecting that. I just wasn't accepting. I'm trying to think.
I was overwhelmed with the response and how, like I sobbed, right? At this, just this idea of how self-stigmatized we are, how outside stigmatized we are, and then just how many people, what they thought about themselves. And, and I know that I've done that too. And it just made me think like, we already have this illness, we already have symptoms, we have physical symptoms, we have other symptoms, and then on top of it to have these beliefs about ourself, these judgments.
Yeah, yeah. And you just gave a few examples of some, but I'm wondering, what are ones that you hear commonly? Yeah. I hear a lot, things will never get better for me. I'm unlovable, unreliable. I'm overly emotional. I'm more likely to be violent. I can't control myself. I'm useless in the workplace. Yes. Some big ones. And if these are in your head, first of all, I see you. Otherwise, I wouldn't have created this program because you are not alone in this struggle.
Yeah. And I would ask that you be at least as nice to yourself as you would be to a friend. Be a friend. be a friend approach. Yeah, exactly. Right. Like there's always like do unto others as you would do to yourself. And I'm like, wait a minute. I'm more like do unto others as you would your closest friend. Yeah. Or maybe do unto yourself as you would do unto others. Oh, totally. Yes. Let's flip it. Right.
Because, and I've been doing lately where I put a picture of myself at seven and at 16 on my mirror because I wouldn't talk to seven-year-old Shaylee or 16-year-old Shaylee the way I talk to 46-year-old Shaylee. And so that's really powerful. Well, let's help people right now. So the big one, and a lot of people ask me that, and I have a couple things that I say that I try to be real and not toxically positive, but also encouraging.
What is a reframe to you know it's never going to get better i'm never going to get better so a good reframe for that might be i might struggle again in the future but i don't know what the whole future holds a lot of this is about seeing nuance yeah yeah that's good that's good i'll tell you something that i say and tell me if it's if i mean people i think people have thought it's helpful but i always wonder so i always say like i
don't because they'll say how bad they're doing right then, right? And I have some people, you know, say some hard things like. There's nothing to live for, like hard things like that. And of course, I direct them to getting help. But I also say, you know, I don't know when or how, but I know there will be better days. Because I don't want to say like, because it, the truth is, sometimes we're depressed for a long time.
Or sometimes episodes last really long. And I don't want to be like, tomorrow will be better because it might not be. So let's be a couple of years from now. Yeah. Right. And so that's kind of like something that I would find encouraging to say. But is that kind of a little bit of a reframe? Yeah, I think so. I think that's a good one. That things things will be different at some point. It can be hard to believe that they're going to be better because people who
experience depression are even more prone to distorted thinking. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think too, like, it's the hardest. It's like when I'm feeling, you know, euthymic or having no symptoms or hypomanic, it's like, I completely forget what it was like to be depressed. So then when I'm depressed again. And what it's like to feel okay. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a tricky thing. All right. How about, let me think, what was another one that you said that I was like.
I'm useless in the workplace. Yes. Oh my goodness. That's a really good one because Brandon at The Real Be Russ and I did a two-parter podcast on the workplace and the response was huge, right? Because not everybody can work, which do not feel bad if that's where you're at, but we were trying to represent different parts of work.
So yes, reframe that for us. so that one again it's going to be specific to anybody's individual experience there were 10 or so years where I did very little work you know I collected disability payments things like that but to say you're useless in the workplace is is a pretty harsh and broad stroke judgment so I might say something like I can't meet the specific requirements of this one job but that doesn't mean I don't have value anywhere yes oh my gosh being a content creator I am
picturing all like how you could put these out there that that I would like plaster and like all over it's that yeah that's really good because it's it's holding that both end right because I think we tend to want to be like no no no that's not true to make people feel better and that makes me feel worse because then I just don't trust you and I'm not going to tell you something again yeah I'm not going to tell you that's
not true yeah right not going to tell me that I lost a couple of jobs because I couldn't meet the specific requirements of those jobs. But that doesn't mean I'm useless in the workplace. I have a job now. Yeah. And I think that that's really encouraging, whether it happens to you or not. But in for other people, because I know that I can't blanket statement something and you are completely worthy and beautiful and wonderful if you never work. Showing a great reframe, showing it. Oh, yeah, right.
Just because I can't currently hold a job, I don't want to attach the word useless to me. So reframe that. Just because I can't currently hold a job or just because I can't hold a job, period, full stop, doesn't mean I'm useless. That's a really big, dirty word to use because of one thing in your life. Yeah. And you feel like you're worthy just the way you are. Right. And I just, I just think that it's a really, it's a really powerful thing to do.
And I know that we talked about before this, we talked about, I did a post on Instagram about asking people if they mask or, you know, cover up or if they feel safe to, to share. And I wanted to talk to you more about that because you said if you self-stigmatize, you're more likely to mask. And then also talking about how masking is sometimes keeping yourself safe. So I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on masking. scheme.
My first question would be, you've been known for a very long time that you've had bipolar disorder. Was there a time that you masked or do you speak of it in all spaces? So yes, you're right in that I think that people who are experiencing self-stigma will be more likely to mask because they'll be less comfortable showing up in sort of the beautiful raw way that you personally show up all the time. We love that. I love opening my Instagram and seeing, saying,
oh, Shelly's having a bad day. That's terrible. But I feel a little better now because I'm also having a bad day. So there's that. But to your point, I think that masking for me is a little different because I don't have a lot of self-stigma. I think if you're having self-stigma and negative beliefs about yourself because of bipolar, it's the bipolar that you want to hide. Masking for me has been mostly symptom masking, just pretending full stop.
There's a difference yeah so it's a nuance i don't know if anybody's written about that but the way you asked me and we think that that's that's a small difference right so someone who has a lot of self-stigma might just say i'm going to pretend everything is always fine because i don't want anybody to know that i'm having any trouble whereas for me masking has been more along the lines of okay i'm going to take some deep breaths and not show
signs of having an anxiety attack something like that yeah yeah yeah same i relate to that for sure there is a difference i i love that you said that yeah yeah and so the masking part do you i'm trying to think what would you. I actually don't even know how to put that. Wow. I've never got stumped before. That's okay. We can cut this part. Yeah, we're definitely cutting this part. I guess. What about why people mask or how does it show up or some of the problems it causes?
Yes. I think that's good. I was trying to think if there was anything more research specific, and I think that's where I got stuck. So I was like, I don't know anything about research. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we do why people mask. Yeah. Downsides and how to not do it. Yeah. Sorry. I completely, that was the first time I've ever blanked. Anyways, it doesn't matter. Yay editing. So yeah. Okay. I'm going to do this. So I know. So I'm really curious about what, what masking looks like or how,
how people mask. What are your thoughts on that? Well, I think it can come in a couple of ways. There's definitely Emotionally emotional suppression, one might say, right? Hiding your emotions, especially emotions that you assign negative value to. If you think sadness is a negative emotion, trying to hide sadness, trying to hide anger, trying to hide irritability, anything that's associated with an episode, instead of giving space to those emotions and letting yourself
regulate them, just pushing them down. So I think that's one way. I think forced positivity is probably another way, right? Trying to maintain this facade of happiness or cheerfulness, even when you're really not feeling that vibe. Yeah. And kind of a meta scale, this idea of like feigning normalcy, right? Like pretending that life is just like, like everybody else's life. My life just goes along like anybody, anybody's quote unquote normal. Gosh, I hate that word.
I know there's no other word. right any quote-unquote standard average whatever life just pretending that that's the case on this bigger picture scale it's just hard because then you're trying to pigeonhole yourself into something that does not reflect your truthful experience yeah and sometimes i feel pressure outside pressure to be a certain way because someone has you know you're bubbly you're this you're that and i try try and live up to other people's expectation of me.
And the truth is that in my past and what I've learned for a lot of years before diagnosis and even now is that people like hypomanic Shaylee. Best and, but hypomanic Shaylee and I get compliments, right? Like, Oh, you're getting so much stuff done and people don't see the behind like to, to what detriment to my life. Oh yeah. I look how organized your kitchen is. I did it at 3am instead of sleeping. Right. Right. Or I feel this like I think I'm pretty funny and I am, but I'm not always funny.
So I feel like or this is my big one right now. I feel like and it's all put on myself. I feel like I need to represent. Do you know what I mean? Like I'm a mental health advocate and, you know, my account has grown and there's a big community. And so I need to represent. And I'm like, we're not a monolith. Keep showing up as I am. But I find that I want to be palatable and I want to be sometimes I get lost in showing wanting to show people what bipolar is like,
but being like trying so hard not to be a stereotype. type. But the thing is, there are some truths, right? And I try to cover up those because I'm like, well, if they're going to listen to me, I can't do anything that's considered quote unquote bipolar, right? That's my kind of weird, like how masking shows up, shows up for me. It's so interesting.
So masking for you is not pretending not to have symptoms or not pretending not to have a mental health condition, but trying to be trying to have a mental health condition in a specific way. Yeah, yeah. And not so much on Instagram. I show up that you've seen. As I am, I made a promise to myself. Sometimes I'm like, oh my goodness, I can't believe I did that. I'm going to tear it all down, probably like weekly. So everyone's like, you're so brave. And I'm like, you see me freak out about it.
But I know because of the messages that it's helping others. But I think in my...
In my like real non-online life right like my kids are so open about it and kids these days are so open about it so and my one daughter you know just tells people everything and so a lot of people know that I have and I might be the only person that they know that has bipolar disorder and so I always kind of want them to meet me before and think that I'm quote unquote like meet me without and then find out because I feel like they look at me in a different lens and I I feel like, well,
I'm their only person that they know that has bipolar disorder. Then I better not show them any of the stereotypical things. Right. You don't want to feed that stereotype. I totally get that. That's very well put. That makes a ton of sense that you don't want people to see you through the lens of stigma because you don't want to feed that stigma. Exactly. And yet sometimes I need to show up as my, like I try and show up as
my true self. And it is a true thing and symptom about people with bipolar disorder, right? And you're allowed to live that because that's your life, right? I think that stigma cannot be, you know, Rome wasn't built in a day. Stigma will not be broken in a lifetime. But every little bit, every person who you meet and they have an experience and interaction with you that doesn't line up with, that's different from the stigma, the preconceived notion they were carrying about bipolar disorder,
you've made a change in the world. And that, that trickles down. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I feel like that about, about you as well. And I think showing both, like we can both have, have some symptoms, but then do you know what I mean? But we're still awesome. Yeah. It's about nuance. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Masking is very hard. It's, it's very stressful. You know, I understand where it comes from because, It's a coping mechanism, right? You want to feel safe. You want to feel protected.
You want to feel comfortable. And sometimes masking is the way to do that. But if it gets out of hand, it can actually do you more harm than good. It's like, I get it. First day on the job, you're feeling really anxious and irritable because you've been so stressed out first day on the job. I don't know why I keep coming back to jobs. Whatever. First day. It's one of our big things. Yeah. Yeah. First anything, right?
You might want to mask those symptoms so that you can feel that you're making a good impression. Good first impression. Like, I get it. Yeah. But if you're constantly doing it, it's very stressful. It's exhausting. Yeah. So if you're not living your true experience, you might not even get the help that you need because people might say, oh, no, you're even doctors. Oh, you're you're totally fine. I don't see because you're doing this whole masking stick the whole time. Yeah.
And it's interesting because, you know, some people it's a fine line because some people don't have a choice. And some of the things that people said, like I literally was told I would be fired. Or there's people that work in jobs that there was someone that was in the army and they were like, if anyone found out, I wouldn't be able to do the thing that I love being here in this space or a police person.
And so I wonder, would you say to them or would you think that even if they're fine spaces that they could, that they cannot mask, is that helpful too? Like, or are you saying that we have to unmask everywhere? Because I think that sometimes that's too scary for people. And yeah, so what would you say to that? I'd say again, the theme here seems to be nuance, right? Right. So if you have to mask, I say do it for a short amount of time.
Yeah. Go back to being yourself, even if that means going for a walk and just feeling all of your feelings, noticing where they are in your body, shaking, moving, whatever, discharging them, just regulating them, coming back to the truth of your experience. Or if it means having. You know, a person in that, that setting where you can be yourself with whom you can be yourself, right? With whom you can say, you know what, I'm really struggling.
Can we talk? Or can I sit in your office and cry? Or, you know, like a teacher, for example, at a school, if you're a person who's in school, you know, having one teacher or mentor who knows, and you can go to them and say, Hey. Can I just sit here and decompress for a minute? Yeah. And you know what the most interesting thing is, is that you will find, and I'm not speaking to everything because I don't understand everybody's situation.
And if you're someone that feels like you have to do that, just know I see you. And I'm really sorry that you have to do that all the time. Like Andrea said, it's exhausting. But I'm finding in ways when I feel safe, sharing in the workplace or in my life, actually the biggest thing I was afraid of, which is rejection or judgment, actually turned into something that was more connecting and or gave them permission to be able to share something.
So I, in my job, because I'm a teacher on call, which is a fancy way of saying substitute, because I kind of go all over, just until recently, I don't get to know a lot of people, Right. Because I just come in and then I don't know the teacher I'm coming in for usually because they're obviously not there and you're in the classroom. So, of course, I make friends with everybody that day, but it isn't it doesn't make sense for me to disclose it.
There isn't really a way for me unless I went up to be like, to meet the principal and be like, by the way, like, it just didn't make sense. It isn't covering up, but I'm starting to go to the same schools and they're starting to fall, like follow on Facebook. And, and, and also people like it, people find me, I'm on the interwebs, Google my name. Right. And so they're starting to find out. And even as a strong advocate, I was very nervous, right.
They knew me outside of a different setting and so but i've and i did in a local event where it was called wired and it was talking about different brains and i had speakers what was in the local newspaper where i worked and so people knew and i literally have had three people come up to me like during, center's time that were eas or educational assistants that just whispered to me like i i have bipolar as well and only my husband knows and like me i would
have never thought that i i I'm always afraid they're going to find me on the interwebs and they're going to take my license or whatever. It's not true. But I actually checked. But I was so anxious about it. And then also, I found out that, you know, one of the teachers that I work for had an attempt in high school. I would have never known that.
And different things, you will be surprised. And I'm not saying you're going to have a good reaction to everything, but I am constantly surprised at when I show up. In my truth and as my full self, how it gives permission for others. Yes, exactly. It gives permission to others. It gives space for other people to feel their feelings. Yeah. I feel the most comfortable around the messiest people, honestly. The perfectness is, it just seems unattainable to me.
And I'm just like, I don't know if I can be friends because I won't be able to be. I love messy, messy people, which I would argue we all are.
But some of us are matter how much we're showing it yeah some of us are masking what you talked about one of the parts of your program that you talk about how to tell people and i would love to chat about that i know one of the things sharice jewel she talks about how so she doesn't just slam people with the information she always gives a like asks a question she says i don't know know if you know this, but I live with bipolar disorder.
And I've adopted that because it gives them a chance to take a breath and respond and maybe think before they maybe respond with something not awesome. But I love that because it gives people something in case they're surprised. It's a little linguistic cushion. Yeah. Nice. Way to go. I love that. So tell me, what do you talk about in that section? And, And, you know, what would you recommend people say or what are different ways?
Right. So I don't go into telling people what they should and shouldn't say. We talk about we talk a lot about first deciding. Yes. If to share is so funny. I use the word disclosure, but I was talking to a colleague the other day who also has bipolar disorder and she was saying she someday wants to use the word sharing because if you say disclose, it sounds like you have a dirty secret. So now I'm kind of trying to shift my language around that. Yeah.
Whether or not you want to share or not share with whom you would like to share or not share because disclosure or sharing can be done on a spectrum. Yep. Much like bipolar disorder. It doesn't have to be the same amount of information for everybody with whom you share. Yes. Identifying people who might be people you want to share with and identifying people who are definitely no-goes. Yeah. Right.
So people who have shared about their own experiences, people who are generally kind and welcoming as opposed to people who might have expressed racist views or really specific views about mental health or who are generally angry and not nice. Or make really hard jokes. Right. Yeah. So you get a sense. So it's deciding who you might want to talk to. And then it's about crafting that disclosure talk. What you can highlight, what themes you can highlight. Can you highlight hope and resilience?
How many how many specifics do you want to get into? We spent an hour talking about my story. We didn't even talk about I had 39 ECT treatments. That's not generally something that I highlight because it's not what I want to stick in people's minds about my story. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I think too, that's really powerful what you said about who, because for a long time, I sometimes feel and I felt as an advocate that I owe everyone my story. Not everybody is privy to the same information.
And one of the things that I did when I, you know, got my diagnosis and I came out of my week stay at the short stay place was I figured out what I wanted to say and I actually practiced it. And I had a few things for the different circles. Like there's this outside circle, like people that know me because I'm a leader in the community and I was very like a leader in the church. It was like, and I teach and like, I'm just, I. I'm known to do the circle activity. I'm known. Do you?
And so then I had them and I literally practice because so I wouldn't freeze or I wouldn't, you know what I mean? Like I had different things and now I'm going to tell a funny story. So I kind of, you know, I take it and I took it even more seriously when I first started speaking about it. And so I said, you know, like anyone that asked about when I got my tattoo and it says, be still. And it has Has the semicolon is the eye. If you can't see it, those that are listening, you can go look.
It's all I post about it on my Instagram a lot. But I told myself when I get that, if anybody, it'll be a talking point. And if anybody asks me, then I will. But I took it a little too seriously. So just one time. I'm at, I did 30 minute hits. So it's like this circuit of kickboxing. And there's like this coach in the middle that's like, go, go, go. And I was doing my sit up station and I was doing them. And she asked me about my tattoo. to.
Okay. I'm not, I was just going to this place. I'm not super in shape. So you can imagine the breathing and the sit up. And so I'm like, this is what I call it. It means my story's not over yet. It's suicide awareness. And she was like, what? Like maybe 19. And her eyes just got really big. And she's like, your workout's not over yet either. That's when I realized that maybe I don't need to use the tattoo as a talking point for anyone.
Sometimes people just are trying to say, that's a nice tattoo. And there is times where I, you know, I surprisingly feel like I want to tell or whatever. But yeah, that story cracks me up. I look back on it and I'm just like. That is, that is really, really funny. It's really ridiculous, right? But it's true. We want to share when it serves a purpose for us. Because we'll get the help we need, because we'll form a connection.
We don't think that people should share because they feel they owe someone an explanation. To me, that doesn't seem like a very good reason to share. If you feel it's a good reason to share, well, then you have your reason because you feel it's a good reason, right? But in general, I'd say you want to be able to gain something from a disclosure, from sharing with someone, something that benefits you. Yeah, yeah. Oh, such good. I could talk to you for one zillion hours.
I would love right now, I would love if someone's listening to this and they're like, I'm just like light bulb. I have so much self stigma. I don't even know where to start, what to do. This is the first time I'm really, you know, digging into this term. What would be some of the things that people could practically do to work on, on their self stigma? Yeah. Well, I think recognizing it is the first thing. If you want to read more about self-stigma, you can visit the website for the program.
Unfortunately, there's not a lot else you can do from there, but there is some really great information. You posted some of it, which was amazing. It's O-S-S-I-B-D, so bipolar disorder, O-S-S-I-B-D.com. If you read the section about stigma and self-stigma, you might get more light bulbs or just feel really seen. So learn about it. And I would say, recognize it. like call it out in yourself, right? If you are feeling bad about yourself, ask yourself, what's the monologue going through my head?
What is the thought that's on loop here that I'm having about myself? Okay. Is it true? Is it helpful? Can I reframe it? Can I remember that I'm, I'm so much more than this diagnosis? It's my tagline is you are so much more than your diagnosis. You are a beautiful human. Like, can you just remember that? There are way more interesting things about me, honestly. Right, exactly. What else are you? What do you do? What are your strengths?
And like I said, be as kind to yourself as you be to a friend. There's a big piece of self-compassion that's involved here. Yeah, yeah. No, that's good. We will put the website in the show notes for you to look at that. I think a part of me... I don't know. Some people go back and listen to the podcast with Vasavi where she's written the book, Say It Out Loud.
One of the things that I'm doing that I didn't even realize would be combating self-stigma, but she talks about saying the things out loud. And I feel like it would be a powerful thing for me to say the reframe out loud because I can think things, but the power and, you know, lots of people say there's a power in the pen. I struggle with journaling. I video journal. I can audio. If you sit me down with a pen, I feel I get so stressed.
I don't know what's the best thing to write. I can't do flow of ideas. I have to spec it out. So that works for me. But maybe you're someone that writes, you could write it out because I feel like the more practice that we get, you know, I'm noticing that some of the things are coming more naturally. Like, for example, I always like apologize for myself, right? Like, and, and be like, I'm sorry if this is too much, but I'm so, you know, like, or I say, I just, I just apologize.
So I almost set it up for people to look for the thing that I'm doing. Whereas if I just had the conversation, they might not have thought that, you know, like I. And I love this thing with Vasavi. I mean, she's amazing. And the episode was amazing. And saying, even if you say these self-stigmatizing thoughts out loud, you might be like, what was that? So if you say out loud, I am unreliable. There might be part of you that goes, well, that's not fair. That's not true.
I'm like, oh, okay, well, maybe I should stop saying it internally to myself. Myself and say something else. Like I struggled to meet my friend for lunch the other day, but I can still be counted on for other stuff. You say that aloud, then that takes root in who you are. Yeah. I can think of an example. So I had my first no-show for the podcast with no reason, no message. I couldn't get ahold of them. I've never had that before. I've had it in group
ones, but like another one. And so immediately... I'm like, what did I do wrong? I send the Zoom link like closer to the day. I don't get like when I book ahead because people end up inevitably always asking me, I can't find the Zoom link. Can you send it again? So I'm like, maybe they were, I'm looking through the old emails. Maybe I sent the Zoom link to like, my number one go-to is to blame myself, right?
And I like, like panicked a little, had my little cry, got together and was like, okay, maybe it's not about me. And turns out, yeah, they made a mistake. It was double booked. It had nothing to do with me. Right. And I'm just thinking, I'm working so hard to try and get to a place where I don't have to go through that to get to the place. And I think one of the things that I like to do is I'm trying to stay curious about things because I make up stories in my head.
And sometimes like with the speaking out the mean voice you're like you don't realize how mean you are to yourself or how hard you are on yourself right whereas you speak it out and then you're like that's berating like it's shocking but when it's like your internal voice it's just I'm used to it exactly and whose voice is that really is that society's voice is that actually your voice bam right oh my goodness this well my friend thank you for being best
friends with me now oh best bestie redhead bestie bipolar redheads wait a minute yeah we're gonna come up with a hashtag bestie bipolar slash. Spicy best spicy bipolar besties what that's a new one that's gonna be a group you can all join you can all join you don't need to have your red hair we're all spicy thank you for being sparkly and fun and encouraging. I love when you send me voice messages. It makes me so happy. I'm glad that we've met.
Your work is literally, I need you to know that your work is saving lives. Oh, thank you. Yours as well. I'm so, so happy to be here talking to your amazing audience and this community that I love so much. Awesome. We will put everything to find, Andrea and all the things we've talked about. I'll get it. I'll gather it all and put it in the show notes. And yeah, thank you for listening and go and follow.
And I'm really excited to just watch what you're going to do next and just support you in all that you do. Yo. This is Bipolar. Thanks again for tuning in. You can find video versions of This is Bipolar on our YouTube channel we also have all our previous and soon-to-be future episodes of the podcast on Apple Podbean Spotify and Google Play. We spend most of our time on Instagram at this.is.bipolar.
There is a vibrant community there where we have conversations and post different ideas and different strategies. And we'd just love for you to join us there. It is so helpful if you enjoy our work or think it would be helpful to someone if you You could like and share and save and follow us in all or any of those spaces. If you're a listener for the podcast, if you could leave a review, we would be forever grateful. Again, thank you for being here with us. Let's get the word out.
Let's share lived experiences so that we can change the ideas that people have about bipolar and help those of us that live with it feel less alone. Music.