BrainStorm: A Conversation with Author & Filmmaker Sara Schley

And see you two together.

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to This is Bipolar. I am your host, Shaili Hugendorn. I am a mom. I am a teacher. I am a wife. I am a fierce advocate, and I live with bipolar 2 disorder. Before we get started today, I wanted to remind everybody that I have peer support in form of Instagram subscriptions. So what that looks like is you come on Instagram and you subscribe, And then you have access to our private peer support chat.

And we meet once a month on Zoom. And it is just such a really powerful healing space, even for me. I didn't know a single soul that lived with bipolar disorder when I was first diagnosed. And so we come together and we just share. And it's a place where you can just be seen and heard and feel safe and understood. And so if you would like to join that, come and find me on Instagram at this.is.bipolar. And I would love to get you set up.

In fact, this is going to come out later, but we are meeting on World Bipolar Day this year. So I get to celebrate with my bipolar besties. So that's amazing.

I am really excited today because I have Sarah Schley coming on. And I'm really excited because my guest co-host Andrea is very good friends with Sarah and so I knew that Sarah and I would be immediately besties and we are so I am going to now. Let Sarah introduce herself tell us a little bit about yourself Sarah, Thank you so much, Shaley. And it's so nice to meet you. And I'm grateful to have a friend north of the border. So like you, I live with bipolar too. I'm a mom. I'm a grandma.

I've been married to the same guy for God knows three more decades. Also an entrepreneur. I've started a few businesses. I've written a few books now presently making a film. So, so many of us with bipolar have a little bit extra creativity going on. You do. You do. And I'm so excited to talk about the movie. So hold on, folks. I know sometimes we are, if you're in a space where you're experiencing struggle with attention, it is going to be worth your while to stay to the end.

My favorite interviews are where I don't know a ton about a person. So I'm very excited to talk to you.

When did you first start to notice that there was something different or something going on with your mental health? So we know it's different for everyone, right, Shaley? But in my case, it was really, like an on-off switch when I was 21 years old. I had my first episode at 21, and it was dramatic, devastating, crippling, incapacitating, death-defying depression. And that lasted for six to eight months, my first one.

So it was very clear to me because it was like all of a sudden, the earth got pulled out from under me, and I'm at 40,000 feet spiraling down to crash. And even though that's mixing metaphors, it was devastating and scary. And I went from being a really high functioning kid. I was at an Ivy league school. I had a bunch of feisty friends. I was a varsity athlete. I was going to one of the best medical schools in the country in the fall.

And all of a sudden it all crashed. And then I couldn't add two plus two. You know what it's like. Yeah, I do know what it's like. Oh, friend. Every time I hear it, I can feel that in my body. I'm curious when, So you're in this depression. Did you get diagnosed or go for help first for depression? Did you have any idea that it was something more than that?

Let's fast forward. It took me 25 years, Shaylee, 25 years to get the right diagnosis of a bipolar too. Wow. I'll say that again, 25 years, five psychiatrists. And because as probably many listeners know, if we're bipolar without full-blown mania, we have hypomania, we have high energy, and we always appear at the doctor when we're depressed, we get misdiagnosed with depression. And that's what happened for me over and over again for decades. And I didn't really know it was anything different.

Yeah. Cause you think that the, when you're hypomanic and you have the extra energy and everybody's like, Ooh, look at you, look how much you can get done. I remember I was a new mom and they were like, what, you just rearranged your kitchen. What is going on? I'm like, I don't sleep. And so I would think like you, that was like regular me or quote unquote. Yeah. And then the rest was depression. And I was diagnosed when I was 32. So not as long as you, but same thing.

Yeah. You don't go and get help because it feels good until it doesn't. And then when you do present to a doctor and they see no energy, no joy, no desire to live. Yeah. Negative affect, et cetera, et cetera. They'll say, oh, she's depressed. Let's give her an antidepressant.

And that's why I think it's so important. If you're listening and you're wondering if this is something that maybe you're experiencing, it's really important to write down the things that you're feeling when you're feeling up or elevated or higher than usual, because it's nearly impossible to get a diagnosis unless they can have something that proves mania or hypomania. And so you've been going through these cycles for a very long time.

What brought it to a head and to finally getting that diagnosis?

You mentioned being a mom. I had twins. I had them late life twins. And post that, I didn't have postpartum, but about a year when she was a year and a half, my daughter started having severe breathing issues. And I was up all night with breathing treatments for her, which then we now know for people with bipolar, that's like a recipe of disaster to not have sleep.

But because I was so in a devastating depression unlike previous times i'm like i've got these kids i gotta figure this out because she's not healthy and i need to have my brain online yeah to in the previous metaphor add two plus three to be the mama bear that we need to be to get our kids diagnosed and treated for any issue so i was finally convinced that point by one of my friends to see a psychiatrist this is 20 years later

i've never seen a psychiatrist wow because i didn't want to i I wasn't going to do drugs. Yeah. So you know a lot of psychologists and therapists, but I didn't want to do drugs. I had a whole prejudice or stigma, my own internalized stigma about medication. So anyway, I finally had a friend drag me to a psychiatrist who prescribed antidepressants for unipolar depression. Yep. Wow. And did that, did the, I'm assuming they gave you like an SSRI or something like that. Yeah, I got Lexapro.

Yeah. And then, so what I found out from the psychiatrist that finally did diagnose me with bipolar later is that for a lot of people, bipolar, the antidepressants can seem to work and then they make you worse or then they trigger hypomania. And that was the case for me. Like they seem to work, but then I got, I got depressed again. Or at one point I was.

Triggered into hypomania. And as we come to learn in our film from researching, interviewing so many research scientists, hypomania doesn't always look like grandiosity and lots of energy. And I don't know, your listeners may have heard this before, but it can also be the four A's, which is anxiety, anger, agitation, and attention deficit.

It's from one of your countrymen, Roger McIntyre, who's at University of Toronto, taught us that.

Because hypomania can be agitated, angry, anxious, and reactive and i'm not typically that way when i'm not on the wrong med so antidepressants can trigger hypomania people with depression with bipolar as yeah and those in turn can be those four a's and how do we figure it out the psychiatrist who finally diagnosed me correctly asked me about that i was like oh you know what yeah my husband says i've been a little bit quick

trigger temper and my friends are like what's up what's with you yeah because that's not me my baseline is pretty calm and I'm well yep so that was diagnostic wow yeah that is almost my story, we're in the same club right for me it was the Zoloft and it worked amazing until it. Not. And that's what ended up me going to the hospital and not staying, but eventually getting a diagnosis. And yeah, for our listeners, and I have a lot of listeners who love people with bipolar disorder.

And so I'm curious, could you help explain what it feels like? You just gave the four A's for hypomania. So maybe start with that. What does it feel like for you in your body and look like in your life when you experience hypomanic symptoms? Again, mine were mostly triggered by those antidepressants. So it's not standard for me. But when I did, when I had the hypomanic, it was that.

It was like just quick trigger temper and like reactivity and, the opposite of patience and talking fast and probably moving fast. And then I also was getting up at 4 a.m. and writing stuff that was getting published. I'm like, how do I get three things published in a month? That never happens. But the temper and the anger and reactivity thing was really different. And I could feel that in my body, like this kind of, what would be like a leopard ready to leap.

That thing, like your adrenaline is ready to leap. Yeah and i will say that i do for me if i'm noticing myself being a little bit irritable or a little bit reactive more than normal that's like a that's a canary for me that's like a, indicator that that's not so good i need to be paying attention to my self-care because that's like a little sign of hypomania yeah so it's a good notification yeah which you bring up that's a really good point.

And I think that it's something that's really helped me is to learn my early warning signs. Before I would have told you, I don't know, it comes on suddenly. But now as I look back or get reflective or I'm like a detective and I ask my family and I've made a list when I'm not hypomanic, because I won't believe you probably. Exactly. Now I can. But back then I'd be like, whatever, you're just not amazing like me. But now you just don't get it. I know the secret of the universe.

Right. And you're wrong. Sorry. Yeah. Sorry that you're not as involved as I am. And I think that's something that's hard to talk about as not just as a human being, but also as a woman. Right. Because there's this added pressure. We make people comfortable. We're not supposed to be angry. And like I get furious when I'm not reactive physically or anything like that, but just like I'm snippy.

I'm edgy. chippy and unfortunately because I didn't when my children were young maybe not so much now that they're older it's harder but when they were little I was able to not be chippy like that with them but then I saved it all up and then my husband would get it or like my mom and it was, I've worked through it through the years but I carry a lot of shame around like the anger or when I get like that. And so then it compounds because I'm angry because it's a physical thing,

a part of my illness, and then I'm angry at myself. So it's like double angry. Yeah. What would Dr. Vasiliev say about that? The shame and the stigma? She would get me to look at it a little differently. It is not myself and it is not my fault, but it is something that I need to work on. But yeah, it isn't who I am. I'm not an angry person. I am experiencing anger. If you're listening, Andrea, tell me if that's And also forgiveness goes a long way, right?

Apologies and asking for forgiveness. Yeah. Sometimes I'll say to my husband, I think I'm going to need a blanket apology because I I think this might be a tough day, just FYI. On the other side, I'm curious because you talked about like a major depression. And I'm just wondering if you could, it's like my life goal to get people to understand what it's like.

I think people, especially with depression, they think because everybody's felt sadness before or maybe had a situational depression, people think they get it. And they're like, I got myself out of it. Or do you know what I mean?

And so people think they understand it more than an actual bipolar depression is. And so could you explain a bit about what that feels like and looks like for you? Absolutely. And I wrote my memoir, Brainstorm, pretty much to do just this and then a TED Talk similarly about it because I want to help people who've never experienced this to try to get an experience of what it's like inside my brain.

When I'm going through a bipolar depression, in quotes, and I say it's a broken brain, it's not about sadness. It's not about emotion, really. It's because your affect is flat, but it's really about cognition, energy, and sleep, particularly cognition and the energy, where I just all of a sudden went from being a frickin' 4.0 person to I can't navigate my way to class.

For me, Shaley, it's like the stories and examples I've given are trying to being in a grocery store in the peanut butter line and not being able to choose peanut butters and taking 45 minutes to figure out which peanut butter to bring home because I couldn't decide between the organic and inorganic, the larger, the small, the one who is local, the one who's far away, the one who's expensive. All those inputs is way more than I can handle.

At home, the laundry and the dishes and everything piles up. And it's not because I don't want to do the dishes. It's that I literally cannot sequence. I literally cannot figure out how to separate the spoons from the forks or what you're supposed to do. And it's ironic. Now, I like from time to time, I take joy in unloading the dishwasher because I can. One of those depressive states. It's me. I'm not exaggerating guys out there and gals. Three hours to unpack two bags of groceries.

I believe it. Not because I had attention deficit, because I did not know where the tomatoes went. I suppose it is attention deficit. I couldn't figure out where the cereals go. And it goes on and on with stories like that. So the capacity to think. And when you're a high-thinking person, it's terrifying. Because all of a sudden, who are you without your brain? And then shame comes on top of that. I remember, like, my kids are little.

One of the times they were five. And I got to get my kid to soccer. To the soccer team. And that means he needs his cleats and his shorts and his t-shirt and his water bottle. That's completely overwhelming. I'm not going to be able to figure that out. And I'm not going to be able to figure out how to get him in the car seat and get the twin sister in the car seat and find the way to the field.

I have a story in my book where one time some really dear friends of ours were like super generous and they said, oh, come camping with us. And I'm terrified because I'm not going to figure out how to camp, how to pack for camping. So it takes me like days to pack for this camping trip. And of course I want to go because it's going to be fun for the kids. And as a mom, you feel horribly guilty if you're not giving your kids these experiences.

So I try to get myself there. And on the way there, David texts me and he goes, hey, we ran out of ice. Could you grab some ice at the store? And I'm like, I cannot freaking grab the ice. Like I won't be able to do it. If I have to grab the ice, I have to go home, because I cannot figure out how to get to the ice place, park the car, get the kids out, find the ice aisle, get the ice back, put it back in the car. It's like way more than I can handle. Right. So I say to him, no, I can't.

I try to like, and I'm thinking on his end, he must think, how freaking selfish can she be? We're doing everything and she can't get the ice. You know what I mean? And so then you're flooded with shame because of course you should be able to get the ice. Right. So I'm getting chills telling you this, and this is from 20 years ago. You know what I mean?

That's present. And it's just a horrific experience. And then on top of that, you're exhausted. I want the energy to do it. So I remember this same trip. I come home. The kids are in the garage, and I practically can't get them in from the garage to the house. And luckily, my husband's like, you got to get the kids out of these car seats. I can't do it. And I go and collapse on the bed.

Fear exhaustion like just complete because your brain didn't have the energy to access that level of cognition yeah that was an amazing way to explain it and i cannot tell you how much i relate i have a story it was the opposite i was hypomanic and couldn't think but i tell this story about being stuck in the toothpaste aisle and trying to figure out what toothpaste to buy and i go from zero to if i don't buy the cheapest one or if i mess up if i get the

wrong toothpaste i got to the place where we're gonna lose our house because i'm not making the right shopping choices do you know what i mean and i totally do yeah because it's also that awfulizing that happens the depression there's i would say there's creativity in our lives when we're well like exquisite creativity i think there's creativity and negativity when i'm depressed i witnessed this in my mom who had the most amazing creative negative brain like could figure out how Rome

would fall on that day because of the things I did wrong. Oh my goodness. Yes, that's me. And when the kids were little, I would, I remember, because I would think of anything that could go wrong in the park or anything we'd need in the diaper bag or any of this. And if anything went wrong on that trip or didn't work out, or I didn't have, I struggle with this one, not having what I need when I need it, I would berate myself.

Like, what kind of mom are you? You didn't think about it. And it's not just like the water bottle. It'd be like this random band-aid or something like that. But clearly it's my fault. And my husband would be like, how could you possibly think of everything? And you're right. It's exhausting. And I find even though you have, it's the weirdest thing when you're hypomanic because you have all this energy, but yet you're exhausted.

Like it's this, I have this weird feeling. It's almost like I'm exhausting myself. And I think that's more now because I can see what's going on. Like before, just trying to stay alive kind of thing, keep going. But now that I can see it, it's exhausting to me that I'm still experiencing it to some extent.

I'm treated, I have medication, but that it's exhausting to me that I am still experiencing it, even though I know this is happening because of this and this, but it's happening anyway. And that's what it is to live with a chronic undiagnosed mental health disorder. Wow.

Yeah, that makes so much sense. And really, are it's like our brain and our body are just trying to stay alive trying to get ice like i can't get ice i'm trying to stay alive or it's just too overwhelming yeah they figure it out the peanut butter jar the four-year-old dropped the peanut butter jar and it broke on the tile after it had taken me an hour or whatever oh no yeah and i started screaming and i'm not a screamer yeah and when i'm the mom is like steady safe person yeah

screaming and his little four-year-old face the tears start coming down what's going on here and i wasn't screaming at him i was at the situation like i can't do this again yeah there now listeners can know he's doing great he's 23 graduated engineer he's fine yeah no i know i felt i'm lucky because he had other adults around And she, my daughter and my son, had other adults around when I wasn't well. But yeah, it's sorrowful. Absolutely horrible.

Yeah. And I think a part of it, too, is we're talking from an experience of bipolar 2, and this is just our experience, and everyone needs to make their own choices. Everyone's doing it. But it does make me sad in the specific situation where someone that lives with bipolar disorder wants to have children and...

Feels like they can't or shouldn't. And again, this is a very sensitive topic and there are different ways to go about it with surrogacy and different ways to go about it and not passing it on. And it's so complicated, but it does make me feel sad because I think that some of the folks with bipolar disorder that I know are some of the most wonderful parents because you understand stand things on a different level.

And you're actually, most of us that have sought help, you're, like you said, you are more motivated even to get help, to put your management skills into action or whatever, because you know that you're taking care of this person. I cannot imagine the lack of sleep that you had with twins.

With Maya having this breathing issue, which was repaired when she was six, It turned out it was a blood vessel wrapped around her trachea, and she's fine from a very simple mechanical surgery, but for the first seven years, she couldn't sleep and breathe, and it was terrifying. She had the surgery a week before her seventh birthday. So she's great now, but that was terrifying because, for listeners who may or may not know, sleep circadian rhythm is really key for people with bipolar.

So here I am, you know, up all night, and I did not know this was like taking a glass of poison. Right? The thing about being a mom, though, is there's a whole other show because we interviewed several perinatal psychiatrists for the film. And Dr. Crystal Clark and many from the UK. Dr. Clark was a perinatal psychiatrist. She's a reproductive psychiatrist. By all means, you can have children. We just track you the whole way. So I want your listeners out there who want

to have kids. It's totally doable. And my kids are great. They're fabulous. Because you know what? They also learned resilience, passion, humor.

Yeah and my kids and i have so much hope for the next generation like my kids and their friends they all talk about mental health my one daughter's yeah i'm gonna be late for school i'm going to therapy and nothing like i know and one time and one time she did i didn't even know i found it after like she did a little project on bipolar and she told them about my podcast and i'm like like she had zero zero stigma zero whereas meanwhile i know i'm all out on the interwebs But then it's hard,

like, I do still feel nervous when people find out in, like, in person, if I haven't met them first, because I feel like, well, if you meet me, and then you find out, like, it'll be okay, where if you find out first, you might see me through a different lens. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Did you have a specific cycle?

I know for me, it was always the depression always came basically every year, end of October till end of April kind of deal, or did yours?

Yours is super light related then yours all about light so that's one whole subgroup right mine was not consistent like that and it was everybody's different again but my depressions were relentless for nine months at a time like not so people have mixed episodes in the morning in the evening they feel fine i got no relief for six seven eight nine months and i think i've lost like between four and six years of my life to that because it was like six months off six months on persephone then

nine months nine months in my 20s then i was better for a while so there isn't really like a rhythmicity to but more long depressions which is more typical for hypomania for bipolar 2 yeah for sure that's why i try to explain to when people are like oh bipolar 2 it's light it's not it's just different the depressions are horrible yeah and equally as dangerous people with bipolar 2 equals their own lives. Some doctors I've talked to said bipolar 2 depressions are worse because they last longer.

Yeah. I never thought of this, but it really should have a different name than depression. It's like bipolar depression brain breakdown. It's not because people think depression, like you said, they think sad. Yeah. Oh, I'm depressed with a small D. No, your brain's broken. Your heart's broken. Your lungs are broken. Your kidney's broken. We'll repair that. So it's much more, for me, in my experience, more comprehensive and unrelenting and merciless and terrible.

But here I am, like one of our characters in film, somebody else you want to interview, Dr. David Kabushan says, as the people with bipolar, some of the most joyful people she's ever met, because we know what it's like to live without joy. And so we're so like grateful. Yeah. And there's that vitality that we have when we're well. So. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious if you're willing to talk about it. Did you struggle with a lot of suicidal ideation and thoughts?

I've been working over the last five years or so thinking about that with myself. I think it's something that I tucked away because I was always like had this idea of what it looked like to be someone who had those thoughts. And it's taken me a while to realize that, yes, me saying that I want to go to sleep and not wake up, that is. You know what I mean? And I'm wondering if you had that and what that looked like or sounded like in your head to you, if you're willing to share.

First of all, I'm willing to share anything at this point because see these gray hairs? Basically, you can't scare me now, girlfriend. It's all an open book. I love it. Mine are covered. We're going to talk about. So I guess I had what you call suicidal ideation. I never acted on it, nor did I get that far to want to act on it, particularly when I had kids. And I don't judge people who do, by the way. People take their own life because I know why. But I just didn't want to leave my kids.

Or I was too scared to do it, who knows. I would think about it and I'd think, but I don't know what's on the other side. What if that's worse? Yeah, I had a friend who had passed from cancer. And I remember trying to talk to her, Marjorie, what it's like over there. But I definitely, I was like, this is too excruciating. I can't do this anymore. I just need to leave. I just need it to be over. I just need this to be done. I just don't want to

have to, I want to leave planet Earth. I had those kinds of thoughts for sure. I remember like I wanted to sleep all the time because that was the only time I had relief. And I remember I would wake up and I'd feel it crushing and I'd close my eyes again and try to will myself back to sleep, right?

So that i didn't because it was i knew as soon as i opened my eyes it was just like and you're right it's not just the sadness it's this for me there is a lot of crying but also just, apathy just they call it anhedonia no joy flat line horizontal flat line of mood and not it's just so crushing because, You can tell from you and me from this talk, I'm like a joyful person, like to laugh. When you cannot come up with a genuine smile, when you cannot feel the laughter

in your heart with your kids doing something silly, it's gone. It's just horrible. But anyway, it was just a tell-a-tale. We did. And sometimes, even now, I don't get major depressions anymore. But since 2020, and in fact, I didn't have them for 10 years or so, I didn't experience very many depressive symptoms. And then 2020 hit and then there was like, it was more like existential dread and angry depression. Like it was a weird mixed thing for me that I had never experienced before.

But I find that it makes my world really small. And like you said, how you understand how people die by suicide, I just get so upset when people are like, even use the language of commit, right? Or just like how selfish or whatever. Your brain is telling you that people would be off without you. People are just trying to get away from pain. They want the pain to end, right?

And your brain lies to you. Yeah, 100%. The depression, the negativity lies to you and tells you those stories that your family would be better off, your friends would be better off, but of course, that's not how they feel. No, you're right. Yeah, and I think it's something that I really hope that us talking like this, that it will take away some stigma from that because I think that there would be...

Way less attempts if we could talk about these thoughts, especially as mothers and women and parents, you're scared. Like, I was scared that if I told someone, they would take my kids away about those thoughts, right? But I just think, oh, we just need to be able to talk about it. So I so appreciate your openness.

What I would like to ask you now is before we get into the movie I would like to ask you did you accept your diagnosis right away and were you open to treatment I was thrilled that I got the diagnosis because it's 25 years now if I had been 22 I'm sure I would have fought it but by the time I was at that point I'd been through several medications they weren't working I was getting side effects, all those things.

This is a longer conversation than we may have, but my mom had depression, which I believe was bipolar depression because she was on lithium for years, the only thing that worked. If lithium works, you can deduce backwards. That means you have bipolarity.

I remembered that from age 17. And then now it's like I'm in my forties. And I say to my sister, mama's on lithium. Do you think I'm bipolar? Can you find my bipolar doc? So when I finally did get this psychiatrist who had. A 10-minute diagnostic, which is all it took was 10 minutes to diagnose me after 25 years. I was happy because he said, we know what you have. We know what to do. Stay the course. You're taking these meds. You're going to get better.

Yeah. I was a late diagnosis as well. And I almost, they, so they wouldn't, I wasn't sick enough. My friends that are listening, I'm using finger quote, air quotes. I wasn't sick enough for them to admit me, but I didn't want to leave. So I was like, you can imagine, I'm hypomanic, I'm belligerent a little bit, and I'm just like, I can't leave. I cannot do this. I cannot go home, and I know exactly what the cycle is going to happen. Like, you have to help me. And in Canada, it's very different.

We have amazing healthcare in some ways, universal, but that means really long waiting lists. And I knew, that's why I went to Emerge. We don't have an in-between. I couldn't call up a psychiatrist. There's a year and a half waiting list. Oh, gosh. Yeah. So when you have even a mental health crisis, but you're not quite needing to be committed, which if you do, there is no shame in that. In fact, I was almost disappointed. I was mad. I'm not doing well, but you're not letting.

So it was the most bizarre night. I just felt like I needed something to change. I knew I couldn't do it anymore. And so I did accept mine. Yes, I was upset. It took me a long time to use the big B word. I would say anxiety and depression and do that. Yeah.

All right. I would love to hear more about your advocacy. I would love to hear about your book and your movie. Tell us about the work that you do in the world. Okay. Thank you, Shaylee. Thanks for that opening. So it was interesting because. 25 years to get the diagnosis, but 40 years until I was willing to talk about it because of the scheme. So I published my memoir during COVID and like 2022, I think. And once I press send on, yes, we're going to publish the memoir,

then I'm like, okay, I'm out. Let's go all the way out. It's sort of like an on-off switch. Okay, I'm out. That's over. Now let's see if we can get some healing happening. Let's see if we can save some lives. Let's see if we can end the stigma. Let's see if we can minimize suffering, maximize healing, similar to your mission, I'm sure. So I wrote this book, Brainstorm, which I very much love, still very much love it. Blessed in the Bipolar Spectrum. I got to say, it's a really good book.

I'm so excited. I've ordered it on Amazon. Yeah.

I don't know if the classic Unquiet Mind by Kay Jameson, which is the classic memoir for bipolar one yeah there's who is the woman who's the president of the international society bipolar disorder now holly schwartz others they said i wrote unquiet mind for bipolar two which is the highest compliment that's what i wanted i wanted a first person narrative of what it was like to live with bipolar two yeah and it's gotten beautiful reviews that are very moving so i do still love

this book audio as well as regular book. So I wrote it for that reason, to end the stigma, save lives, maximize healing. Save lives would be help people know that there's a bipolar, there's a bipolar spectrum. No one knows. It's true. You have this persistent treatment-resistant depression, which means that you were diagnosed wrong, and you're dying because nobody knows that there's bipolar 2, which is depression without full-blown mania.

So I wanted that out there. I wanted people like us to understand what it was like and that they weren't alone.

Yeah i didn't know anybody bipolar either there was no podcast there was nothing that was the only person i knew so i want hey out there you're not alone i know what it feels like inside your head and i wanted all the loved ones and others to try to get a hit of this is why they can't pick up the ice or choose the peanut butter this is why you need to do the laundry for them it's not because they're spoiled the brain is freaking broken so i wanted all that to happen happy with the book.

And in the end, I end with bipolar pride because I was still hesitant to press send on this thing to publish it because of the stigma. And my wonderful editor, Jennifer Margulies, she says, okay, here's your assignment this weekend. Go home and write this essay. I'm bipolar and a better person and leader because of it.

That's for all you out there, write the essay. So at the end of that essay I was ready to press send because I saw all these like qualities of character of gratitude and discipline compassion non-judgment I've got your back kind of person that I'd become as a result of this and all right this is something like we've been through hell we're we're phoenix risen and we are, worthy of blessing ourselves and each other. And okay, I'll tell the story. Wow. Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that.

I am definitely working towards that. But I can see that. I always say, because I know there are some people that say, I wouldn't give it back for the world. I 100% would. And yet, I also accept the, I don't know. I don't know if I want to use the word gifts, but like you said, I am a more empathetic person. All of those things, like I can see someone that someone might judge and be like, you know what? All of us are only a couple steps away from having housing instability. Exactly.

Have an addiction. And if I never struggled with these things, I don't know if I would have as a compassionate heart. Absolutely not. Because I go there before the grace of God, easy.

If I didn't have the support I had and being a white woman with privilege eight that and my husband family I could easily been in the streets easily been addicted easily been easily been right so yeah all that kind of non-judgment and compassion but so yeah you're gonna have to read my book honey pie because you're gonna get to that place owning your gifts it's on its way to Canada. Okay, good. Great. Thank you. I appreciate that. So you want to hear about the film? I do. I'm very excited.

So the film is by the same name. It's a good name. It's also called Brainstorm, which is actually a storm in the brain.

And the story here goes that I had given the early galleys before it was even published to a bunch of my friends, girlfriends from college on a reunion of types and one of them is wonderful science documentary filmmaker name is bonnie walsh and bonnie had read it and was really moved by it and then long story short of bonnie had just had a pbs national documentary screened which is not easy so i half jokingly half bipolar creative confidence Lee yeah

where it said hey can we get a national PBS special out of Brainstorm yeah. She was like, it does not, not fast, but let me see. And so she ended up being my director and we ended up getting incredible support and then amazing, generous funding from another friend of ours named Nina Magosian, who's now executive producer. And she has two grown children who've lived with bipolar. So she was all behind it. So it's three years later, 22.

And it's we just did our first private focus group screening so it's on its way that's amazing and so what is it like tell me like thank you so it has the same mission of the book and the stigma saved lives back to my ceiling but what we did was it's not about me it's inspired by that but we have six amazing characters okay these are compelling characters that live with bipolar like you, Andrea, who are doing and have done amazing things.

And then we combine that with the cutting edge brain science because Bonnie's a science documentarian and breakthrough treatments. So we've got the people, the science and the treatments and the people's like to break down the stigma because these are awesome people. And then let's see what's on the horizon, understand the brain. It ends with redemption because even though people still have to really work hard. We're living well.

Wow, that sounds amazing. I love that too, because for the longest time, besides my own psychiatrist and therapist, I didn't look at a lot of stuff online. I didn't want to hear from a lot of professionals, even researchers, because I felt so misrepresented, and I felt so doom and gloom.

I'm not saying this for all, and in fact, I'll get to the good part, But I didn't have a lot of trust only because I had a doctor, even he's still our GP because it's hard to get a doctor, so you can't really get rid of him. Most people in Vancouver don't have their own doctor. And so he had said to me flat out, you don't have bipolar disorder, you wouldn't have your degree and you wouldn't be able to raise your children.

So he put me back like five years. So I had this distrust and also like, I just distrust people that don't live with it and talk about it all the time. I hear you. I know. Yeah. This is a very trustworthy crew. So the first sort of lead initiators of this were Dr. Jim Phelps, who wrote the diagnostic that got me well. And he was a big champion of the book and then of the film. And then Dr. Holly Schwartz, who I mentioned before. She's been on the podcast. Okay, so you know her.

She's now president of ISPD. God bless her. She was a big champion of the book. It was all their buddies who they introduced me to. Holly knows the best of scientists on the planet. That's who we got to interview. And I started working with Crest BD for their Polar S app. It was the first time where researchers, doctors, people were interested in the opinions and valued the opinions of those that lived with bipolar disorder. And deem us experts in our own disorder.

I love it. And that's why I first started trusting Holly and ISB because they call me expert by experience. I had never in my life, that was a huge de-stigmatizer right there. Huge lift all the shame right off you. Now I'm an expert by experience. And we're in a good phase of life right now because a lot of these professional bipolar organizations get it. Like they're centering the voices of people like you and me. So now I'm on the board of that organization with Andrew.

Were the first two ever people who lived experience to be on the board because holly as president knew that was important you asked about activism so i mentioned involved in another network called bipolar action network that was by dr andy nierenberg in mass general hospital and that's a whole other story amazing work also centering people who lived experience and then also working with crest like you did erin michalek who runs that place is like the

queen of centering people lived experiences voices.

So it's a good time to be involved in this kind of thing from our world. Yeah. What it was growing up. Yeah, it was amazing. I just filled out this form. I don't know, it randomly came up on Instagram. I'm like, sure, I'll tell you my experience. And then I was like, didn't think they'd ask me to do anything else because I was brutally honest, right? Normally I'd want to be like, everything is great about this.

But I was like, yeah, that doesn't work for someone that lives with bipolar, that language. And then they're like, no, we want that. And so I was on the board. And then I didn't realize, because like I said, I wasn't, that interested or involved in research and what professional, no, we're professionals. I'm trying to think of the word people in the field, experts in the field. Scientists, academics, that kind of thing. Thank you very much.

And I remember I was telling Andrea, and then I was like, I meet with these people monthly, every second month now. And I was saying, oh yeah, and Aaron and Caden and Andrea was like, what?

You hang out with, do you know who they are? And I'm like, yeah, they're she's like so I was like oh and then like they asked me to go on the podcast that's coming out and Andrea was like this is amazing and meanwhile I'm just like oh they're my buddy yeah they're fabulous and so I broke that down because I was always like do you know what I mean like just because my doc the way my doctor experience was it's like I am the doctor yeah You know what I mean? It's not that anymore. Yeah.

People are changing. You know, and if they are like that, we don't have to hang with them because we have these wonderful experts, scientists and researchers and organizations who want to hear from us. And are actually making resources that are actually helpful and don't just make you feel worse about yourself or like, this is doom and gloom. And research, it is hard. And there is a lot of truth in the hard things about bipolar disorder. but that was all that was out there when I was diagnosed.

I didn't see a face like yours would have given me so much hope. And yeah, and my, oh, tell me more. No, I was going to say, that's what I wanted to do. Here's the face of bipolar, you and me, middle-aged ladies that have kids and go to work. And we're not all the Hollywood stereotype that you fear. Yeah. And that's what I bring on my podcast, right? Like most of the folks that have been on my podcast, it might be the first time that they're telling. They don't have a platform per se. Many do.

But I think I've only had, and because I fully trusted them in their work, I've only had, I think, three people that don't live with bipolar disorder that have come on the podcast. Yeah, Holly. And then I had another author, but she had written a book about, and she had some in her family that have lived with it. So I trusted her and I really loved her. There's not a lot of good fiction that I've come across. Just a handful that actually represent bipolar disorder fairly.

You know what I mean? And not just a stereotype like, oh, there goes the artist mom having an episode. So they're with the young boyfriend and they leave their kids. Like, every time it's on TV, I'm like, they're like, oh, she's an artist. And I'm like, okay, I can't paint. So stop that right there. And I never left my kids, right? Exactly. There's just this idea. And yeah. I love, love, love that your face is out there. How can we eventually,

when it's released, how can we watch the movie? Like, how is it going to come out? How are we going to get access to this amazing movie you're making? Beautiful. Right now, if you go to brainstormthefilm.com, and you'll put it in the show notes, I am sure. Yes. We have their TED Talk, a trailer. But contact us, then you'll get information as soon as it comes out.

Awesome. We have strong interest from PBS. so we're hoping for a PBS broadcast to see the rough cut before they sign on the dotted line and we're getting closer to that hopefully they'll have a national broadcast we also hope to do like a big global virtual screening that's a big dream and have everybody on at the same time and then festivals and kinds of distribution if you have an organization we can come play the movie at your conference that kind of thing

there'll be lots of ways on Brainstormofthefilm.com to access the film. Yeah, and I watched the trailer. Andrea sent me the trailer like a month ago and I was like, what? I have to wait? I don't want to wait. I'm proud of this now. And I just love that so much. And I know that we're just- New best friends, yeah, for sure. New best friends. Forever. But I'm so grateful for you and I'm so proud of you. Oh, back at you, my friend. I'm proud of you too. That's amazing.

It's a journey. it is definitely a journey but we're out there hoping to do well we heal ourselves when we do this right shaley i was shocked after getting over the fear of coming out in quotes yeah once i did start to sell my story which i thought i was gonna die because i would be so judged i was shocked at how much love came my way and the more we tell it the more shame we lift off and i didn't realize how much shame i was counting like 200 pounds of shame yeah the

more we tell our stories the more that melts away and so it's healing for us to to be out here doing good work yeah yeah and I do want to talk to my friends that are in the pit right now and this might seem impossible and you look at us and I've got my hair done and I'm this isn't always the case and also, there isn't pressure to tell people like you are on a different journey we this has been a. Long time. I'm very old. It's been many times. Yeah. Yeah.

And so if you are there, you are doing the hard work of just staying alive. And I am also proud of all the listeners that you showed up and listened to something today and that you are still here.

And Holly, could you share a word of encouragement, something that you would have said to yourself when you were in the pit of depression and maybe to our listeners that have been there? What would be a word of encouragement or comfort that you might give them?

It's more like I just want you to feel my hand on your heart and my hand on your back, because words aren't going to do it right now, but just the energy of love coming your way, that you are loved, you are seen, you're valued, you're good. And even though you can't see it right now, you're going to get better and we're here for you until you do.

So beautiful where can we find you online can we find you on instagram we are going to all go and sign up for the newsletter on yeah beautiful in the notes contact us contact us on brainstorm the film.com for sure yeah you can also i'm on linkedin so film is also on instagram okay other places and there's more about my books on sarahshlay.com you can find them through brainstorm the film and we have our own podcast oh yes the exciting podcast that's podcast on brainstorm the film and

you'll see 15 episodes and the reason we did that is because in in doing the research and interviews and film shoots for the film you interview this brilliant scientist for three hours and they're going to get one minute of the film right so with the podcast we can take a deeper dive with them like you and I are now and go 30 minutes into their work if it's on mitochondria or if it's on.

Post perinatal postpartum women, or if it's on keto diet, or if it's on the transcranial, whatever it is, there's more in depth information on those podcasts. And you can also call into the podcast and talk to our guests. Very cool. Isn't that cool? Very cool. I love that idea. Oh, gosh, I totally will. That'll be so fun. Yeah, great. I'll give you who our upcoming episodes are and see what you're interested in. Okay, I'll think of a somewhat brilliant question, maybe.

I'm sure it will be. What is the name of the podcast? It's called Brain Talk. Yeah, Brain Talk. And you can find it most easily on our film. Awesome. I'm excited about that too, because I get a lot of questions that I can't answer or knowledge that I don't have. And I'm really excited to use that as a resource to share with my community. Yeah, I know that my listeners and my followers are just going to be really excited about this. So thank you. Thank you for being my new best friend.

Thanks for being my new bestie. I'm going to have to share you with Andrea, apparently. You are, you are. That's okay. You guys all have red hair. It's like, I know, right? We're spicy. No, thank you so much for having me on the show, Shaley, and And God bless and keep doing the good work. Yeah, and thank you for all that you're doing in the world. Stay healthy.

This is Bipolar. And see you too. Music. Welcome back to This Is Bipolar. I am your host, Jamie Hugen-Noran. I am a mom, I am a teacher, I am a wife, I am a fierce advocate, and I live with bipolar 2 disorder. Before we get started today, I wanted to remind everybody that I have peer support in the form of Instagram subscriptions. So what that looks like is you come on Instagram and you subscribe and then you have access to our private peer support chat and we meet once a month on Zoom.

And it is just such a really powerful healing space even for me. I didn't know a single soul that lived with bipolar disorder when I was first diagnosed. And so we come together and we just share and it's a place where you can just be seen and heard and feel safe and understood. And so if you would like to join that, come and find me on Instagram at this.is.bipolar. And I would love to get you set up. In fact, this is going to come out later, but we are meeting on World Bipolar Day this year.

So I get to celebrate with my bipolar besties. So that's amazing. I am really excited today. It is so helpful if you enjoy our work or think it would be helpful to someone, If you could like and share and save and follow us in all or any of those spaces, if you're a listener for the podcast, if you could leave a review, we would be forever grateful. Again, thank you for being here with us. Let's get the word out.

Thank you so much, Shailene. It's so nice to meet you. I'm grateful to have a friend north of the border. So like you, I live with bipolar too. I'm a mom. I'm a grandma. I've been married to the same guy for God knows three more decades. Also an entrepreneur, I've started a few businesses, I've written a few books, now presently making a film. So...