Bipolar, Medication and Creativity with Vasavi Kumar

Music. Conversations with. My name is Shaylee Kukendorn and I live with Bipolar 2 Disorder.

Sharing with others is healing both individually and collectively. Sharing our stories will educate others, bring more understanding, shed more light and smash more stigma. Our voices need to be heard. Our stories aren't over yet. This is Bipolar. Hey everyone, just before we start the show, I wanted to let you know that some of these episodes are the episodes called Going Deeper.

I started recording them a year and a half ago, not sure if I was going to start a Patreon, and then subscriptions came along on Instagram, and I decided that the subscribers are going to get these episodes four weeks before everybody else. But I have a whole backlog of them. So I wanted to start sharing them with you all. They are inspiring and powerful and interesting and brave. And what I love about it is that there is an episode telling this person's entire story.

And then we do the going deeper on a specific topic. And so when these come up, I really encourage you to go back and watch the original. Conversations with episode with each of these guests and then going deeper because it might, you might get confused or you might just want to know more about them. And so another thing is you might hear language like Patreon or you might hear me say, we just recorded or the last recording because I wasn't sure what I was going to do with them at the time.

And so I'm so excited to get them out there. I will be probably putting up around one a month. And so this is the first one I'm going to share with you.

Take care of yourself, take some deep breaths, and let's go deeper together. This is Bipolar. This is a part we're calling going deeper. So before you even listen to this, go back and listen to conversations with Vasavi Kumar because it is amazing. I talked about it already. It's like a double whammy of therapy and bipolar bestie all together. So you're welcome. I'm just saying, you're welcome. Go listen to that.

We are going to go deeper here and we want to talk about creativity.

And we just want to I've been thinking about lately and I was just telling Vasavi just this idea of I know we get caught up and I do I can speak for myself and a lot of people in my community I get messages that Shaley I don't want to go on medication because it's going to take away my creativity or I have to go off to induce a bit of hypomania because then it's and just attribute all of that to bipolar and I really wanted to smash that and what I could say for me is that I actually

can do good work now that I'm treated like I did a lot of things before and they were pretty awesome but it's actually enabled me to find the thing and do well and keep up with it the podcast for example was started in hypomania but I've been able to carry it through because it's been focused right because I didn't have that focus before so I'm curious about your thoughts about creativity and bipolar disorder?

Yeah, I'm going to be honest with you that I have the same resistance around medication. In fact, the number one question that I ask any psychiatrist, if they're going to prescribe me something, is this going to stunt my creativity? And yes, I ask that, and is this going to make me gain weight? And is it going to make me lethargic? That's because when I first got on medication, I was on a cocktail of meds. I slept.

Oh my God, I slept so much. I gained like 45, 50 pounds. And I just was I was just so tired. But the creativity piece is something I drank the Kool-Aid with that. I had read a lot of articles that saying that said these medications stunt your creativity, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Here's how I look at it now having, you know, written a book, and I consider myself very creative. My clients hire me for my creativity. And yeah, just the process. Yeah, that's what.

I don't attribute my creativity to just the bipolar disorder anymore. In fact, I look at my creativity as God speaking through me. And God is bigger than my bipolar disorder. And that's when I say God, you can say whatever word makes you feel connected to your higher power. I say higher power, God. I believe that my creative energy is bigger than my brain.

It's a spirit. Write that down. Yeah, my creative energy is bigger and my creative spirit is bigger than my brain and the thinking that I have to change was if I take medication that this is going to stunt my creativity. So I'm limiting my creativity just to one part of me, my brain. And so when I started looking at creativity as energy, then I stopped being limited by my own thinking, right? And honestly, had I thought this way sooner, I probably would have been more consistent with my meds.

The reason why I stopped and started was always because, oh, I don't feel creative. Do you really not feel creative, Vasavi? Or are you just hanging out with the wrong people, eating really shitty food, going to sleep way too late, not exercising, and then feeling really tired and wondering why you don't feel creative? Because I'm not on meds. I'm not taking care of my lifestyle. And you and I are neither pro or anti-medication.

It's really do what works for you. And all I can say is that I feel now having been on medication.

And I wrote a book while not being on medication, but now having been on medication, my mind is a lot quieter.

And for me, when my mind is a lot quieter and I'm not duking it out with all these different voices in my head, I'm a lot more clearer for my creative spirit to speak through me and to move through me because I'm not putting my energy towards battling these intrusive thoughts because they've gotten quieter so now there's a little bit more calmer of a landscape internally for my creativity to be cultivated I think that I I mistook energy

for creativity like actual physical energy And I think that I thought, because it's true, when you're hypomanic, you can get, usually, I have heard experiences where they're so overwhelmed, they have frozen and can't do anything. But for me, it felt like I made, because I thought for 15 years before getting diagnosed, that was that hypomanic Shaley was regular Shaley. That amount of energy was a natural state for me.

And yeah, I could get a lot of things done and I had a lot of ideas, but I think I was thinking that the amount of things I could do was my creativity and not so much the ideas. And that racing and that amount of thinking and energy and all of that isn't sustainable. But what I would do is compare to that. So of course, you think you're less creative. Of course, you think you're not going to get things done because but that is unattainable. And that's actually going to make us sick, right?

Generally. And like you said, there might be you might need that cocktail at first to get you down, right? I have so many people that you get your medication at first, or you get something at first.

And because you have to get you down to be able to be to get that level right sometimes it takes a lot when our mania is but it's not it cannot always be like that personally for the right meds right or what you do but I think that was my biggest aha is that it wasn't I wasn't actually more creative I just had more ideas that I couldn't do well and it's not natural like I find that I'm frustrated sometimes that I can't produce, right?

Produce quickly. Yeah. And sometimes I can, like sometimes half the time I joke, like when people say, oh, I've batched a bunch of content. Like a lot of times that morning, I feel like something, right? Like I don't, I used to try and make a schedule that might work for some people. Doesn't work for me. So sometimes that'll come quickly. And sometimes there will be a period. Sometimes there'll be a long period of not And so then I use other things.

But I think what I'm trying to say is that those periods of quietness, or those periods that I'm not racing, or maybe I don't have a new idea, because I'm always chasing new and better. And I want to be extraordinary. But when I found the things that I've put out in the world that has mostly connected with people is things that I've thought about in those quiet spaces to be able to bring it out. Whereas I thought before I prided myself and I don't need any alone time and I don't need quiet time.

I thought that was like a badge of honor and that took me down. So what do you think about this idea of. Of the energy that you have when you're hypomanic and manic versus now? Like, how do you see a difference between you and your creativity before and after or on meds, not on meds?

Tell me about how that works for you because I know everything's, everybody's different. I really resonated with what you said about thinking that creativity was how much you could do. And that is something I am still working on, to be honest.

But I really appreciate that you just said that because it's like a sign from the universe like a yeah girl like yes like i i i've already been thinking about this so i appreciate you putting such beautiful words to it and making it so simple yeah so i still am working on this i would say i've learned the lesson multiple times so i'm like i've learned i'm i'm just there like i'm right so what i mean is i'm embodying it more and more like the space giving i'm embodying it more and

so i i'm like oh i'm really actively, practicing embodying this so for me creativity used to be how much can i put out there how much it was always quantity always quantity and i'm in a season now and i really you know you've been talked about having that singular not singular focus but having that focus and and going really deep into it like one of the things you do beautifully well two of the things is obviously see this podcast.

And the thought that you put into your content on Instagram, I can tell that you put thought into it. So I, and that really shows just the embodiment of what you're talking about. And for me, I know what the season that I'm in, because I have, the book is coming out. And during this time, my book is coming out and I released the pressure off myself at the beginning of 2023. And I said, we're not going to try to do the most.

We need to focus on what we need to drive book sales, to increase partnerships, to be on people's podcasts. And that's what I focused on. That's what I focused on. If I cannot write an email to my list this week, I'm not going to. Like I just, I'm giving myself a lot more grace. And I just got really clear on what do I actually need to do versus what do I think I should be doing? And what I found that what I wanted to do, what I actually wanted to do was

way less than what I thought I should do. Yeah. Yeah. So for me, it's not about, it's not about more. I need to talk to that scattered, creative little girl in me. And I say scattered with all love because she just needs direction. My creative child needs some direction. And that's where I, my current self can come in and have a talk with myself and also with this little girl and say, listen, we want to play more. We don't need to always be doing.

So I'm in a season of playing, like I'm socializing, I'm out, I go to the farmer's market. I've gone to three movies in the movie theater. Like I never go to the movie theater. I've gone to three movies and I've loved all of them. And so for me, my creative fire gets stoked when I'm playing more and not so much in the doing.

And that's when I can tell, is this actual creativity, Basavi, or do you just not know how to not work? So I've had to have that honest conversation with myself. And so for me, especially while I'm putting out this book and when I'm marketing stuff, I thought I have to do more. And so, yeah, I have been putting out more content, but it's all stuff that I want to do. And so for me, it's just, am I having fun creating this content?

Am I using different parts of me? And so the question for me isn't so much about quantity. While that matters, I do have a certain goal four times a day during this period, but it's mostly whatever I'm going to create. Is this fun for me? Does this show my personality? Am I invoking an emotion? But mostly, is it fun for me? because if it's not fun for me, then why am I doing it? And I think that's what's going to speak to people. And that's what I feel from you.

I don't feel like you're selling your book. I feel like you're showing up as your authentic self because you care about people. And I think that we get stuck in this, like the right way to market. And of course, all that stuff is important. I love learning about the tricks of social media and algorithms and that kind of thing. But I'm not going to do it until I feel it.

I took a really long time before I started doing reels because I had to think about how I could do it and how I could connect it, the things I wanted to talk about, because it's easy to just mouth the words or dance or whatever, which is awesome.

But how can I connect it to like my heart work? And I feel like too, we also, one of the things that we, that's like a superpower and also not is the hyper focus, right? But you're saying play because I can get so into it. I don't see anything else. And in fact, I don't care about anything else. And I like stop making dinner.

So to find that balance and when I'm playing, going to the movie, like you say, or just listening to music and having dance parties with my daughters, that actually gives me ideas. Yep. Whereas sometimes I'm so focused on myself. Showers. Best idea. By the way, I don't know if you have a place to put links, but on Amazon, there's this thing called shower notes. So I have waterproof paper and a pencil. No, I do. And I literally, if I'm feeling some sort of way, I'll write.

Us. God is with you. I'm with you always. It's whatever I need to hear or see. I write it on my shower notes. So that's awesome. Cause I'm a genius in the shower. And then I step out and I'm like, I'm a genius when I'm going number two and when I'm taking a shower, that's the truth. It's like I'm releasing on one end and I'm getting creative downloads in the other. It's awesome. I'm curious from a therapy point of view, I'm wondering if that's because our body is doing something.

Like, I wonder if there's a connection with embodiment, like your good ideas and movement. And you probably know this better than me, but I'm feeling like there might, there's a connection there. Like having a shower. I feel, I think based on just the fact that when we're in the shower, we can't, okay. I don't want to say we, I know me when I'm in the shower, showers are my luxury. I love a good shower, right?

And so I'm in my full pleasure mode. When I'm taking a shower, I'm washing with my favorite shampoo. So I'm in a different state of mind. I'm in a different energy. I'm like shaving. I'm smelling good. I'm adorning myself with nice scents. For me, that's the vibe of creativity. It's not think harder to get the idea. No, thinking harder just is literally destroying your creativity. So when I'm in the shower, yeah, I'll set an intention, right?

Before I get in the shower, I'm like, all right, we're going to enjoy this shower and the answer is going to come to us. We're just going to let our mind go. I just like the answer will come to us. It'll be fine. And so my mind isn't thinking so hard in the shower.

I'm pleasuring myself. I'm cleaning my orifices. And then because I'm like, I'm just like this open, easy, funnel and my creativity who I view as like a five, six year old little girl with all the sparkly ideas, she feels safe to come out because I'm not beating her with a proverbial bat to get the answer. You get it?

Yes, I'm in a softer state. The creativity is flowing. Creativity is a vibe. It's an energy. It's if you have to, if I had to describe it as.

Myself it would be like my six seven eight nine-year-old self i was very creative when i was 13 14 but as we get older those parts of ourselves get dismissed and and silenced so it's true and you know what being like a mom there isn't it's like a thing you have to do and especially, for those of you that aren't watching the video portion of the podcast i have big curly hair and And so it isn't something that you can leave for a couple

of days and dry shampoo, or I have like dreadlocks and can never brush it again. So I actually have to, even when I'm depressed, like I have to get my hair wet. But I always viewed it like, and I don't have a lot of time most days to have the long, good shower. So I actually sometimes just have a like pleasure shower at night.

Or do you know what I mean? Like I had to stop thinking about, especially with a mom when you give all your stuff and when they're younger, I'm starting to get like a ton of time back because they're teenagers and I'm like now realizing and if I could tell anything to like new parents or people that are busy or don't have the same luxury take those times because they're gonna feel they're gonna feel your spirit the smallest things

and I am speaking to my depressed folks that it might nothing feels like enjoyable you're like yeah shower I can barely get there but it's. Even when I'm depressed, it's like, it might not be a beautiful experience, but it's a bit of momentum. So it's both and, right? Like you can use, like when I say, like someone, when I say toolkit or my treatment plan, people are like, oh, this must be like really intense stuff. And I'm like, some of them in the list is like shower every day.

Like it's very, you bring it down, micro, right? I tell you this, when I went to rehab in 2019 for the second time and I was learning to love myself again, I Googled, how do I love myself? I'm not kidding, y'all. And the first thing that came up was hydration. And I know it seems silly, but sometimes loving yourself and doing the best that you can is making sure you drink a certain amount of ounces per water. I mean, the shower in the morning for me, every morning I shower,

but I get out of bed. I get, and I may, I get out of bed. I make my bed. I get on my knees and I pray to God. Okay. I get on my knees at the foot of my bed and I pray to God out loud. And I go, I brush my teeth, scrape my tongue, get in the shower. And I do that like a robot. And I do that because it's become so habitual that it's like, yay, win for the day. Yay. I made my bed. Yay. I prayed. Yeah. I brushed my teeth. Yay, I showered.

Now that may seem like a lot, and especially when you're feeling heavy, you're having those heavier depressed days. But if you can start to almost have a ritual, right? Oh man, when I'm feeling really low and I don't wanna get out of bed, if I just take that shower, if I can just fill up the bathtub and put in that cool bath bomb that I've been saying I wanna use, that is more than enough today.

But it does give you that momentum. It's not bypassing how you feel, but nobody likes to feel that way. Nobody likes to feel depressed and it can feed upon itself. And so all we're suggesting is, can you find one thing that you can do? Like just one, maybe it's, I have a buddy that I talk to when I'm feeling low or it's, but here's the thing. I always will say, do something that's just you and you. So you can start generating that from within rather than outsourcing it.

Because honestly, you could talk to that person and it would be great, but they might be in a shitty mood and say something to set you off. It's really about getting back your own personal power. Because when we're feeling depressed, or when I'm feeling extremely manic, I feel powerful, but I feel out of control, if that makes sense. I don't like feeling that way. No, me neither. And I love that you said small, because you can also trick your brain, right?

So I found that it's taken me forever. But this time, I was always like the person that was like, well, I'm going to take the time to make my bed. I'm just going to get back get into it. During this low-grade depression that I was telling you I've had since October, I've been trying to probably only get it four times a week, let's be honest here. But.

When I didn't want to get out of bed, honestly, the only thing that was getting me out of bed is like if I had to work and or getting like driving my kids to school because it's not a choice. But I would make my bed, but I would tell myself, like it didn't seem as big of a deal when I told myself, okay, make your bed, do something.

You can always come back. Like giving myself permission to come back to the bed. I generally didn't go back. And if it's made, it's I made that bed. I'm not messing it up till nighttime. Like you can trick yourself. Even moving from one space to another causes some momentum. And I think, yeah, creativity is about both, right? Some momentum and some slow. And we're bipolar. It's two. We need different things at different times. Yeah, for sure.

Before we end, I would love to hear about what was the hardest thing about writing your book? Because I know some of us think this is impossible for someone with all the stereotypes out there that it's impossible for a bipolar person to focus enough or whatever to write a book. Tell me what's the hardest part.

And then i'd love to hear what the most rewarding part is the two-parter the hardest part was worrying that i'm not going to make sense and people aren't going to understand what i'm saying. Was just the am i crazy that i don't feel that way anymore because the more i talk about it to people and people are like yeah i get it i feel very validated in what i'm but like i i i had to self-validate a lot. That was the hardest part. I

had to self-validate a lot. And I am used to seeking external validation. So for me, I learned to self-validate. I would look at certain paragraphs and be like, damn, I'm good. So that felt really good. The hardest part though, and I will say this, the hardest part, and I will do this for the next time when I write my second book, whatever that's going to be, maybe it's going to be called, shut the fuck up, not say it out loud. Who knows?

The hardest part, and this is what I want to recommend before you sit down and actually start writing your book, having a killer outline will be very much more helpful. See, I had my book proposal with my sample chapters and the sample exercises. But now, when I write my second book, or when I do anything now, I'm going to make sure I have a comprehensive outline to reference back as I build out each chapter. It was harder for me because my outline wasn't as strong as it could have been.

And yeah, that was the curious thing about, so for me, keep showing up. Like when I feel good, I can do these things, but how did you keep showing up and, keep writing and not bail. I had deadlines. To be honest, I got paid to write my book and it was my job. I got paid to write a book and I had deadlines. I had deadlines and I had self-imposed deadlines. And I talked to my editor and I said to her, I work best with deadlines.

Can you let me know when I should have these chapters in these? So then I got it done. And we would meet once a week, sorry, once a month to review my stuff. And she was saying, she would say, okay, fix this, fix that, whatever. And then finally, I had a final draft due, first draft. And then we did about four rounds with copy editors and this and all that. So I was working on a team, working with the team, and I had deadlines.

So that's... And I love that you asked for what you needed, because I find, because I used to, the very beginning, had a co-host, Julie, who I love. She's writing another children's book right now. And so I've been solo podcasting for a year, but I found like doing things alone is hard for me. And I'm not good with self-imposed deadlines because I convinced myself that I can do them.

But I ask people, so I actually have people in my life that, that I say, can you ask me about what, about things about the podcast, or can you send me, even though they don't work for me, they're just my friend. Can you do that for me? So I love that you had the meeting and you had those deadlines that you could keep showing up.

Well, before we wrap up, I would love to hear, what is the most, because so many people are afraid to come forward and not even on a big scale, like even just telling one or two people, what is the most rewarding or healing thing for you about writing this book and coming forward with your story and saying it aloud not only to yourself, but to the world. The most rewarding thing is to give a voice to that part of me that has felt it.

Okay. So on a personal level, the most rewarding thing is that it is giving that part of me that has felt so crazy, so crazy. So like to the point of insanity, okay. To the point of insanity is giving that part of me some acknowledgement.

And in fact even some more and celebrating that part of me it's i'm bringing it out of there's no, it's not there's no shaminess it there's no shame in it it's just no we have these parts of ourselves and they all have voices and so that part of me let's just say the bipolar part of me by bipolar part of my brain that has that part of me that split off feels like it finally feels less threatened it feels oh thanks boss you're finally talking about this i'm

glad that you're finally giving me a voice. Oh, yes. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It's less angry at me. It's less angry at me. It feels like it can trust me more, like I'm not going to just abandon it or act like it doesn't exist. I think, honestly, up until recently, I have tried to white-knuckle grip my bipolar disorder. I have. I've been white-knuckle gripping it. And I most recently stopped doing that.

And I shared openly, I got back on meds. Your content has helped me so much and has given me so much permission to be like, yeah, boss, you deal with this shit. Why do you try to tough it out? Get on some medication. And I'll tell you what else is so rewarding is in writing this book and now talking about it with other people. Like when I work with clients, we do a lot of role-playing and stuff. A lot of people have voices and they don't talk about it because they're afraid to say voices.

When we using this languaging of parts and voices has been so rewarding to see other people free themselves when they talk about it and they'll come to me and they'll be like i have this voice in my head and they're like wait you don't think i'm crazy i'm like you know who i am i don't think you're crazy and it's just rewarding it's giving space and it's giving permission to other people to really understand their mind like we're not taught how to

think we're not taught how to think We're not taught how to talk to ourselves. If I can, in my little way, while I'm here on this earth, offer people some relief through my book, How to Talk to Yourself and Make Your Mind a Somewhat Calm Place, Peaceful Place. You know, for me, I used to escape my mind with drugs, with alcohol, with relationships. And now I can say, my mind is in such a scary place like it used to be. Yeah, it still tries to fuck with me, 100%. It tries to attack me.

It's not as bad though as it used to be I can honestly say that and, I Have to be vigilant about who and what I allow into my life And that is a promise that I have made to that part of myself that never quite that that felt like an afterthought and Putting that part of me first and saying no matter what I will always take care of you first Yeah, that's been rewarding on so many levels and seeing other people to hopefully make some peace.

Make sense out of the voices in their head If I can do that I feel like I would have won in this lifetime.

And I love that you could be creative in both. I used to always be creative in the up part and I'm finding some of the creative in my down part of being honest and a mess online is almost touched even more people. And so I love your vulnerability. So I said it before and I say it again out loud that I love the work that you're putting out in the world. And I really believe that you're going to change lives and that you already are.

And I just cherish this time together. And let me tell you, friends, because I told everybody that we're already bipolar besties, you're going to see a lot of her stuff on me talking about it on the Instagram community. So join us there. If you haven't already, follow Vasti or find me there. We're going to put all our handles below. There's a vibrant community. You don't even know how many bipolar besties are out there. I go to certain accounts just to connect. And we hope that if you're feeling

alone, you will connect with us. So thank you, thank you, thank you.

Thank you so much. This is Bipolar. Thanks again for tuning in. You can find video versions of This Is Bipolar on our YouTube channel. We also have all our previous episodes of the podcast on Apple, Podbean, Spotify, and Google Play. We spend most of our time on Instagram at this.is.bipolar. There is a vibrant community there where we have conversations and post different ideas and different strategies. and we'd just love for you to join us there.

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