Rufus Wainwright

The series in which some of the world's leading artistic figures choose the most significant influences and experiences that have inspired their own creation. I'm John Wilson, and my guest in this episode is the singer-songwriter and composer Rufus Wainwright. Renowned for his distinctive voice and the theatricality of his performances, he was born into a family of acclaimed folk musicians. His mother was Kate McGarrigal, and his father

Since his debut in 1998, his 11 studio albums have been characterized by their candid autobiographical themes, with songs about addiction, sexuality, and fraught family dynamics. He's also worked as a classical composer with his opera's Prima Donna. And Hadrian, and a choral work called Dream Requiem. As a performer, he's created musical tributes to Judy Garland, Shakespeare's sonnets, the songs of Kurt Weil, and most recently, a staged symphonic version.

Rufus Wainwright, welcome to the Thanks for having me. You were born in New York and moved to Montreal with your mother, I think when you were three years old after your parents' divorce. As the son of two very illustrious musicians and coming from a big musical dynasty, are your earliest memories all musical, do you think?

I must admit, yes. Not like every, you know, musician, shall we say,'cause a lot of people I knew who grew up in musical families, they didn't necessarily play music all the time. It wasn't integral in their, you know, uh home life. But in my home it was. I mean my mother, Kate McGarigal, she was totally almost addicted. Yeah. And whenever a guest would come to the case, and I'm not sure. She'd be curious about what kind of voice they had and what songs they've done.

Yeah. And then when we go up to the country um to see our grandmother, she kind of demanded a floor show of her grandchildren and so there was a lot of music growing up uh in our household. Did you sing together as a child with your mother? Oh yeah, and I was saying... A a lot. Especially um French folk songs and Irish folk songs. Yeah. The Minstrel Boy stuff like that. She was from sort of an Irish French. Irish French family.

Yeah, yeah, and she really was both and and therefore had both of those uh traditions, you know, firmly embedded. And were you performing for people? Was she encouraging them? Yeah. As children when we were at parties or she had parties we'd always have to sing.

Later on even when I was a teenager and in my early twenties, if I went out with my mother to like a club, like a jazz club or something, she would make sure to try to get me on stage wherever it was, even if it was in like you know, Cincinnati or whatever. She loved to kind of show off her kids. Her performing partner was her sister, wasn't it? Anna McGarry. Yes. So it is kind of part of the family tradition that you all get together. It's a communal activity.

It is, but I I mean I must say, I mean though sadly my my other aunt, Jane, the oldest, uh she passed away not too long ago. Um, and is the only one remaining. Though she's amazing musically, one of the greats. Um, but she's not as sort of gung ho about it. My mother was incessant. She just she was really the driving force behind everybody getting up and singing. And and even though at the time I thought it was like my family and so forth. It was really her.

On this cultural life, Rufus Wainwright, my guests choose the most important influences and experiences that have inspired their own creativity. And your first choice for this program is the movie The Wizard of Oz. When did you first say it? Well I I can't remember when I first saw it because um I'm of a certain age and when I was about

Four or three. The Wizard of Oz was a yearly event on T V in North America. It was I think it was always around Easter or something. So the whole family would gather around. and watch uh The Wizard of Oz every year. And it it just, you know, totally transfixed me and I was obsessed with it to this day. I mean I mean I even, you know, would dress up as Dorothy or The Wicked Witch, depending on my mood.

What was it about the film that you love most? Was it the drama, the visual spectacle, or or was it Judy Garland? Yeah. Look, obviously Judy Garland was was the central fixation and her But I do feel that there was a kind of the sense of home, the sense of of being lost and and not knowing where home is. It's so powerful for a small child'cause they can relate to it so viscerally, you know, if if they're even lost for like ten minutes it's like they've gone to Oz, you know, in a lot of ways.

You have that sense of dislocation having moved to Montreal for a new Yeah, no, there was definitely a kind of um my sister Martha and I, you know, we're children of of divorce, as are a lot of people of our age, and it was a incredibly traumatic, um experience that even only later in life I realized how deep it was. Um I always you know, w in terms of divorce I always kind of blamed my dad, you know, early on'cause you know, he was the one who who kind of initiated it.

But then as I got older and and and now especially I realized, you know, everybody was damaged by that. My father, my mother, ar the kids, everybody. Not that it shouldn't have happened because that you know there was a reason for divorce, but but yes, but I think with the Wizard of Oz there was this kind of lost in space kind of thing that uh that I could relate to.

In two thousand and six you performed a Judy Garland tribute concert, a series of concerts at Carnegie Hall where she had performed in nineteen sixty one that famous recording of her. What was the catalyst for that show? Was it a very long held ambition? No, not at all. You know, it's funny because obviously I'd been a a fan of Judy Garland's for many years.

And I loved her movies, I loved her kind of radio recordings. I also kind of loved s com some of her her drugged out home tapes that she made of herself. I loved all of that but I'd never ever really listened to her music for the to the to the famous album that she did at Carnegie Hall. I'd heard about it, I knew it existed, but I always kinda kept it

aside, not for any particular reason. I almost feel like it was fate was was saying to me, like, hold off on that record. And then, lo and behold, you know, around the time of when um uh the United States uh invaded Iraq after nine eleven, you know, I went out and got it. And started listening to it and was of course overwhelmed by its brilliance and became totally obsessed with it. So this is like in my late twenties or something. Why do you associate it with the invasion of the event?

Well what ha well the reason is that it was around the time when I wrote going to a town, I'm so tired of States. And I just felt, you know, disgusted with the country and um which is, you know No comment on now but or is a comment on now, sadly. But but anyways.

So that and that whenever I put the album on, j uh Judy's uh nineteen sixty one concert, I was reminded of how great the United States could be. It it gave me a sense of of the past brilliance and and genius of of the US and and how it's There are positive aspects that we must, you know, try to rescue at all costs. What did you hear in that performance in that?

Well for me it's really uh uh mainly about the songs. Yeah. It's just such a great set list. And and the lyrics. I mean, I've always been a big fan of the American songbook and that whole concept of, you know, you had lyricists and songwriters and so each department was was fully flushed out. I don't know, they're just all they're just v incredibly well crafted uh works of art. And then of course her incredible comeback.

because, you know, she was kind of written off before the show and she had experienced such tremendous uh medical issues and and then suddenly, you know, she came roaring back. And I could relate to that'cause I'd had, you know, my ins and outs with uh with with uh the dark world of addiction and so forth. Well, I was gonna ask you about that, because of course you wouldn't have known any of those aspects of Judy Garland's life when you saw The Wizard of Oz as a child. No. But later on

Uh y you had your own battles with addiction, you came through the other side. Did you identify with Judy then in you know all those troubles, the addiction, and then having this sort of almost kind of triumphant moment on the stage? Yeah. But th you could see something of

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean I think what was very important to me when I did those concerts first, it was important that I was totally sober for for the whole process and uh and that it wasn't, you know, fueled by by anything other than, you know, m rest and, you know, work and blood, sweat and tears.

Was there a moment when you knew you had a problem that you had to get yourself clean? I yeah, I mean uh yeah, there was there were a couple. But I mean it was a kind of a wake up moment rather than a series of It was just I had never known anything else. You know, I started drinking uh and going to bars when I was thirteen. So it was it was just I I didn't really know any other kind of lifestyle, so

Your two thousand and three album Want One was written and recorded after I think you'd left rehab. The opening song on that album, the first track is called Oh What a World. It's uttered by the wicked witch of the West and she melts in the Wizard of Oz when she's when she's had the bucket of water thrown over.

And then in the concert, the wanted concerts I would get the whole band and myself to dress up as the Wicked Witch with with just a cape and a hat and we would all melt at the end of the song. So that was a reference to the film then. You know, you're you're bringing it up now. I'm a little shocked'cause it's not ringing the biggest bell in terms of I knew that that was the case, but I'm pretty sure I did. You know, but come on, that's what she's saying when she's melting. So I must have known.

Want is a hugely ambitious and complex album, lyrically and musically. Was it written over a period of time or or or in in a really concerted burst of energy? Mo, it was it was both. I write all the time. It's become kind of a bodily function for me, uh not to be too glamorous. And um So I I get up every day and I play piano. I try to play at least one or two hours in the morning. So I've always been incredibly prolific. Um I think certainly with, you know, the way that the way that my life was.

before I c recorded want. I I was, you know, just out every night, you know, experiencing all sorts of, you know, crazy things. Luckily I I wanted to translate it into into song and so so I got the material. D almost lost my life in the process but I but I got the material. So b the songs are reflection on moments, on episodes leading up to that period or Yeah. I mean, they're... The people that pay.

I am I am a confessional songwriter. I mean I mean I just write about what's going on in my life. Wh what whatever, whenever, however. I mean in fact one of my great realizations of late uh and and almost like in a bit of a sad way is that uh I've become a huge fan of of Randy Newman uh in the last few years. I knew who he was But I wasn't aware of how deep his catalogue was at at that time. But I really kind of fell into it a few years ago and I was shocked.

When I found out that, you know, none of his songs are about his life. They're but they're complete constructs. Yeah. all character settings and I was like I didn't have to write about my m my dad or my mom or my sister or me or my this love affair, you know, and I was it was s it was it I was with it was with a tinge of sadness that I that I at least hadn't had the choice.

Mm. Um, because I really always felt like it was you had to write about what was going on in your life'cause everyone around me did it that way. So which is the way it was and and I I I probably would have chosen to do that anyways.

But having written and recorded that album over twenty years ago and so many of those songs are incredibly personal, as you say, about your family, about lovers, uh situations. Y you are performing that album again at the moment with in a symphonic setting. How does it feel looking back at does it d does it bring those situations back? Does it sort of teleport you back into a different period of your life?

I I think this uh th the song for me that's especially poignant is uh Tinorid Eight, uh which I wrote about my dad last 'Cause you know, really it started off as a visceral kind of response in anger to something that had occurred between us and

And then I forgot about the song for a a couple of years and then s when it came time to make one it sort of magically reappeared. I was like, Oh there I think there's this song I wrote about my dad and and then when I recorded it it I realized it was actually like a love song. You know, it was about it was more about trying to get

And for those people that don't know the song, just the scenario which is played out is that you've had this fraught relationship with your father, Loudon Wainwright the third, and then there was a I think it was a joint interview in Rolling Stone. Yeah, no we had we we'd had a photo shoot of for Rolling Stone and I I I was probably drunk and and and being pr you know, pretty cocky and I just sort of

Said to him, Oh, Dad, how does it feel to have your son bring you back into, you know, the rock and roll world, you know? And he took offense at it. So Surprise. Uh was I surprised? Um I was surprised at how angry he was. Like I'd really hit a nerve. There's a line in the song, I'm gonna take you down with one little stone. Yeah, yeah. The rolling stone. Yeah. Well yes, yes, that is true. God, you're picking up on all the like Freudian placements. Um

Can I just ask you that's really interesting that you're suggesting that you don't realise these references as you're writing them? They're they're subconscious. Yeah, they are so yeah. I'm ver I'm unfortunately or fortunately, you know, very much ruled by my subconscious, which um can be wonderful and also harrowing for all those around me. So within that song you recount the tensions over dinner at eight.

Yeah, the dinner day that went south. But then now when I sing it, you know, I'm a father now. So I totally I I'm on the other side of the coin and and I'm you know, I'm having a very good time with my daughter. And we don't we don't seem I mean we have issues. She's a teenager it's Uh it's a textbook actually w at the moment. Uh textbook teen.

Totally. Yeah, where they has no interest in me whatsoever. Anyways, but I but so I'm having this feeling of rejection and like my child is is is uh, you know It's growing. Yeah. So yeah, well thank you. Honestly they do. They do. Um what does your dad think about the song Dind He loves it, yeah. Yeah. My dad and I have an amazing relationship now. Um and it's only actually been in the last, I would say, five or six years that it's really been I think smoothed out.

for the duration, I would say. Um I'm you know,'cause we did work very hard. We went to therapy together. Oh really? we, you know, stayed in contact even though we didn't want to, you know, and And so we've really hammered tried to hammer out something that's pretty long lasting for us. We have to accept certain things that we don't necessarily agree with at times. At this point we're just like letting go of

Your next choice for this cultural life, Rufus, is Verdes Requiem. Who played it to you? How old were you? Well I was about twelve or thirteen and I was north of Montreal where our family has a home. with my mother and my aunt and one of them had bought a recording with UC Burling and Leontine Price with the Vienna Philharmonic. It just completely changed my life within that two hour period. I was just transfixed into this, you know, opera queen by the end of it.

I mean I've the next day I rushed to a record store and you know wanted to buy all the recordings available and Are there works by Verdi or are they just Well we'll start with the Requiem and then, you know, then the next one was Regoletto and and that was sort of coupled with Puccini'cause I got really into his arias. You know, and then I think I moved on to Strauss.

And also Janicek, you know, I got really into him. And I I always knew Wagner, you know, w was great, but I w I don't think I was quite ready to kinda jump into that pool yet. But then when I met my husband, Jorn, Who's a real Wagnerian. That's when I went on a total Wagner binge and we went to Bayreuth and He's German ya? He's German.

You're right. Yeah. Am I right in thinking that this would probably have been hearing the Verdi uh Requiem, your introduction to all of this kind of music because everything else was was folk music at that time or is that too simplistic? Um well look, there was a ton of folk music around and I loved it then and and I still do, but I didn't

feel a sort of a pull or a kind of enticement into the folk world. I I think as a as a gay man and and a gay young man, being that I was a boy really, I was thirteen and I knew my sexuality at that point. So I think I was longing and searching for some kind of, you know, place to rest. And opera, as it has for hundreds of years, kind of sent out that signal Uh come here and and uh and relax. So Do you Oh yeah no they were really they're incredibly interesting. It's

Intertwined, yeah. Especially also when you put in AIDS there,'cause you know, g it was nineteen eighty seven. and AIDS was just, you know, everywhere in terms of the gay male population and and I you know, I was pretty sure that I was gonna probably die at a young age and and I I had sort of accepted that. So I definitely, you know, identified with With the both the Requiem and you know, Verdi's music. You were where at that age or had you always known you again?

W it was like eleven or something when I when it started to really shift. My dad was living in London. He was living in West Hampstead and I came to London and I went to camp in Lime Regis. and I fell in love with the girl and we you know, we whatever, we just I think we kissed once or something. But pr maybe not even. But that was sort of it. After that it was uh it was all downhill. Did you come out to your parents?

Well at that point uh I was sneaking out of the house, going to bars, going to nightclubs, Thirteen, yeah, yeah. Which isn't uncommon, you know, for people of my generation. It was a very The early eighties, mid eighties were pretty tricky in terms of of what was going on with with kids and stuff. But um yeah, I I would sneak out and, you know, had sexual encounters and stuff which were not pleasant.

And yeah, if I had to kinda hold anything against my parents uh in terms of and and and really be okay with that and and I've I've I've forgiven them but they were not great in terms of my sexuality. My mother was was appalled and

'Cause she found some magazines one day and, you know, she w she kicked she wanted to kick me out of the house. And my dad he he was more just like, I don't want to deal with this really Or he was just very handsome. He just didn't know what to do. So I think my dad was flummox, my mother was horrified. But above all of that was AIDS looming. So so I think everybody was pretty, you know, outrageous. And Bagtavertis Requiem. That was a a kind of a gateway drug for you, wasn't it?

Yes, yes. Your work as a singer songwriter has always been renowned for its sense of scale, its ambition, and its drama. When you started writing, were you always a c uh maybe a f a a frustrated classical composer? I wouldn't say frustrated. I definitely would say aspiring, you know. Um, like w when I discovered opera and I started writing songs and I knew really early on, like, what if you took

songwriting and really tried to write arias essentially, uh, as opposed to pop songs or folk songs. So I I d I definitely knew that to kind of create this hybrid w would be an interesting experiment, which proved to be correct. So I always maintained this um longing and desire to, you know, progress in into the classical world at my own pace.

'Cause you know, when I did Prima Madonna my first opera when it was finished, you know, I was just hit by a barrage of criticism of me being, you know, a kind of crossover dilettante there's nothing new here, you know, it's so childish, it's so, you know, uh adol you know, it's just and I knew, especially with Pri Madonna, that this was gonna this was my first opera.

and I'm just here to learn how to do it and I'm just gonna do what comes naturally. Thankfully the piece has survived and has proven them wrong. Um I it's it's not a a masterpiece in by any means, but it's there's something there. And it's paid off wildly because I mean now I have my own Requiem, the Dream Requiem, which is a huge success. Amen. How much was that influenced directly by Verdage?

Incr incredibly. There's a direct link. Obviously. We just did it in Hamburg with Isabelle Huppert as the narrator. We're doing it in London as a ballet. So that piece is is sort of the flower of my classical ambitions, which, you know, I didn't get traditionally. I went to a conservatory for about a year, did terribly. I think I failed every course.

But I I actually got to sing Verdi's Requiem though when I went to to conservatory at McGill. They happened to be doing it that year with the choir, so I got to sing it which was great. So yeah, Requiems are are important for me for sure. What were the main aspects of Verde's Requiem that that kind of really struck a chord with you?

obviously the sense of drama and the sense of redemption And the acceptance of death, you know, the the concept of, you know, this is happening and we have to translate it, you know. You know, it's interesting though, because then in writing my own Requiem, not for me, but the Dream Requiem, uh which I guess they'll play when I die. Uh but um what I was really struck by in that process. was really getting into the text, the Latin text.

So you have traditional Latin liturgical text, but also interspersed with a poem by by Lord Byron. Dark darkness is written by Lord Byron in eighteen sixteen. And wasn't that after there had been a volcano and it caused really almost apocalyptic? Yeah, the year of darkness. Yeah, the year of no no seasons. And were you taking that text as a reference to current climate crisis?

Well I I mean there's it's impossible not to draw, you know, a connection. Um I think, you know, what what Byron was writing about was was coming from a real place. I think people did think the world was ending because there was such an ecological collapse and now unfortunately we know it's Actually happening. And you say there's a narrator in that, Isabelle is going to be doing it but previously Huper did it and Meryl Streep did it. And Jane Fonda did it in LA, yeah.

That's quite a thrill, isn't it? I mean can you be just working your way through your favourite actor? I just make the calls, you know. It is very unusual I think for a musician, a composer to kind of travel such diverse m musical territory and because you've worked within the folk idiom and you made rock records and dance records and writing operas.

Do you still regard yourself primarily as a singer songwriter then? Um, well I must say that uh especially of late, you know, there's been a lot going on with the requiem th that I'm itching to get back to my day job, which is as a songwriter, a pop songwriter.

I want nothing more now than to just hide away in a studio and work with other, you know, musicians and try to, you know, cr create something that'll possibly hit some chord in the real world or whatever and um to get out of my ivory tower a little bit. And and yet the latest album is a collection of other somebody else's songs. Yeah, yeah. Stage show which you've now been in the middle of the year.

It's one concert that I did and we recorded and it was I think it was just so, frankly, good the performance, which and it was quite good because I was quite exhausted um, in the sense I'd just I'd just been in London doing opening night, which was like a whole kafuffle. And uh and I had like two nights in LA and Opening night was the musical adapted from the John Casavitas film. Yeah, with Sheridan Smith and Evo Van Hove directing.

So I was just a bit at my wits end and I did this Kurt Weil show kind of in the middle and I think there's just something I was just so spread thin that it kind of w w sounded amazing the recording or th I it really hit a nerve that was worth, you know, sharing. And what was it about violin and so many other songs? Well I mean viol is a there's a

you could w draw a lot of parallels between Weil and myself. I mean I not I mean he's great. I'm not com saying that I'm as good as Kurt Weil. And I'm sure Kurt Weil would would say that he wasn't as good as me. Uh but but uh Is it because he was writing po Yeah, he Has he has, you know, fingers in all sorts of different pies, whether it's popular genres or Look out, old Mac is back. Your next choice for this cultural life, Rufus, is the ninety. Yeah, yeah.

Which you say you're obsessed with as a teenager. Yeah. Yeah. My well my mother had spoken about it a lot. When she saw it it was it affected her deeply and she was a teenager at the time. But she would always talk about the scene at the beginning of the movie where where Jesus is, you know, being you know alone, airlifted around and and she just always would talk about that scene.

And so I th it sort of like echoed in my head and then and then I was at boarding school in upstate New York and there there was a little video room where you could go and watch videos and they had a they had a a V C R of La Dolce Vida and I watched a

And once again it just totally changed my life. Um and I think I ended up watching it like thirteen times or something. It's a long movie too. It's two it was two tapes at the time. And it's funny because it's not I mean yes, obviously the Marcello Th his whole character, you know, it's fascinating and there's uh all these other different people and so forth. Played by Marcello Mastriana. And he's a hedonistic gossip columnist. Yeah. Sort of high life of Rogue.

Certainly the the ambiance just totally wrecked me and made me want to like run away. Was it that sense of aspiration and glamour do you think? Lamar it was the the elegance, the exotic nature of it. I mean I grew up in Montreal, Quebec, Canada kind of the furthest thing from Rome in the imagination. But the character though, who really got me was the friend Anuke May. She's this sort of a bored aristocratic Gorgeous woman with the sunglasses on and She's like your soulmate.

Yeah, that character just transfixed me and I thought I was her. Like I was like, That's me right there. That or who I aspire to be is is that is that woman, uh, is Anuke Me and the Dolce Vida who's sort of on one hand bound to you know this decadent and luxurious life and and kind of despises it but also

you know, is is soulful and wants to and is a good person. Um, I think maybe it was a little bit like my addiction, you know, it was like she became this sort of figure of my uh of my relationship with with decadence. I mean it's sad, you know, she didn't die so long ago and I would have loved to have met her and just and and let her know that. And that portrayal of decadence and glamour, the high life. Can I just ask you about your father's father, Loudoun Wainwright II, who was a famous

And I think he had a reputation for being very candid and very personal with his columns. Did you see aspects of him, do you think, in that? Yeah, I mean he wasn't. Like a like a like a gossip columnist. I mean he wrote for Life magazine and he had a very he was he was a very um respected um kind of thinker, uh in a lot of ways. Or journalist I should say, but journalist about his his own life.

His column was called The View from Here. And look and he did they did live in Hollywood at one point, you know, when my dad was little and he would hang out with Marilyn Monroe and Judy Garland. I mean he kne he he wo he was in that scene. Father knew Judy Gow. Well my father was actually babysat by Judy Garland once I think. Because he's father. And uh and the first

girl that my dad was in love with was Liza Manelli. And they were about ten. Wow. So the first ever love letter he wrote was to Liza Minnelli. Hang on a minute. When you did the Judy Garland shows, did you ask your dad about her and you know I did. I mean I mean it it was you know, it wasn't well, he should talk about it. Loudon should tell you tell you that story. Get him on the show.

And Loudon Wainwright the second, his father being this columnist, I mean you just said his column was called The View from Here. It was about his life. Right. He would write about like his kids. At one point when he was dying, he wrote a very, very beautiful column. About maps. And how like where he's going there no map. Do you see your own workers carrying on his tradition then? I definitely.

I definitely see a kind of a thread between him then into my father and then into me and and my sister as well. That is yeah, we are we are third generation confessional.

partly about uh the pressures of fame as well. Life in the spotlight. Having grown up around people who were so well known. Did that give you a taste for the spotlight? Well we were Martha and I were very much sheltered because our mother Kate, you know, she had been signed to Warner Brothers.

There were she was living in New York at one point with my dad. But then when my parents divorced, she brought Martha and I ba back up to Montreal and we lived a very sheltered life there. And I I don't know if it was on purpose necessarily.

In fact I think a part of my mother wished she could have stayed and and it was always a little bit sad that she didn't, you know, get to fulfill her full potential i in in America. But um but she she came back home and I think for both Martha and I it was it was it was a blessing, you know,'cause Later when I went to Hollywood to make my first album I ended up meeting a lot of

the kind of offspring of of of Shobi's kids and it was it's they had a really rough time a lot most of them, you know, in terms of their upbringing. And and ours was quite wholesome. You have lived your whole life really in the public eye, or m a lot of your life. Yes. I mean within measure, I mean, you know, it was I had some respite. But do you think you're more comfortable in the public eye as a result of your parents' experiences?

You know, I think it's an interesting balance. I mean I th I think that my mother harbored a a sense of I unfulfilled ambition. and that she then transferred to uh my sister and I. And so we still have this drive to be famous and to be known and which which you kinda need to keep going. It's it's nonsensical, it's maddening, it's ridiculous. It's quite stupid actually in a lot of ways. But it is an engine and it does imbue you to To move forth. You know, I I can't really do without it either.

And you've talked about your cinematic influences and the musical influences obviously, but what about literature? I mean, what part does that play? For somebody who is such a great lyricist, I mean, do you draw on the work of other writers? I mean I'm an okay lyricist. I mean uh we'll see if I'm a great lyricist in a few years. But uh

Yeah, I draw on everything, whether it's literature or film or or paintings. You know, I I just I'm I'm always in and lyrics to me are are kind of the most important um is the most important aspect of songwriting are lyrics. More important than melody. But when you said earlier that every morning you start by playing the piano for a couple of hours and you're writing songs, does do the songs? No, but d does that mean that the lyrics follow the melody? Are they suggested by the melody?

They are they are with me. I wish they weren't. I wish I could just sit down and write lyrics and and and be more kind of academic about it. So there's no Well there are a lot of times actually it's funny'cause in the morning I'll just do music, but oftentimes at night, very late at night, I'll be woken up by a lyric.

and I'll and I'll, you know, speak it into my phone. I won't work on it, but I but there are certain lines that kind of hit me and I have to, you know, record them. Like little little things, you know. I think one yesterday was what was it? It was like Narcissistic side salad. Whatever. So are we gonna hear that in a forthcoming album?

Uh you talked about your daughter earlier, um becoming a father, losing a mother, all of those aspects of family. What how what does that do for the creative process for you? Well I mean it's I'm I I'm

bless beyond measure, you know, in terms of my family situation. I mean I you know, I talk to a lot of people in the world, most people actually, and they're like Yeah, I l I like my brother and my sister, they're lovely, but we don't really connect too much and Every s single member of my family there's like a very deep, very intense, very meaningful connection. And and I I mean everybody, like all my cousins, all my

my sisters, my aunts, my uncles, you know, there's like this strange sort of thing that we have which is uh which is fantastic. And I there's nothing bad about it at all. I mean I it i it's not easy. All the time. And um we and that we can be quite mean at times, but it is nonetheless it's wonderful. And what drives you on creatively? Well, I just uh at this point it's just second nature. A and this is sort of a this is a a a place where I'm at now where you know, I'm I am driven creatively.

You know, and that's great. And let's keep going. At a certain point you have to stop and think of yourself as a human and not do anything. for five seconds. Sometimes I feel like I'm a little bit in this hamster wheel of, you know, oh, you get depressed, then you write a song and then you try to get depressed again and then you write another song, you know, or whatever. You kind of put yourself in these situations that are

That are sort of slightly traumatic so then you can come up with material. I am one of those people. Um was what I was hinting at with the family. If you're happy, you're stable, you've got a daughter, you know, what that does for the songwriting Well that I mean the look that look certainly having a daughter is not stable. Having a fourteen year old kid uh in Los Angeles um is it's quite the journey. A wonderful journey, but it's it's intense.

uh for everybody. So yeah, so I find the drama and everything for me it's more just about like I gotta figure out how to do nothing at some point. But I think also with, you know, devices and twenty four hour news and what's happening in the world, you know, it's just that I ha I definitely had to find a way. Actually, you know what, I I called up um Tom Daly. A diver, yeah. he lives not far from me actually in uh LA and he might come over and give me knitting lessons.

Oh, yeah, yeah. That was a big message. Yeah, so and I I think knitting might be in my future just just not do anything but knit. You need diversions. I need divergence, I need something very low impact. Very um easy and very, you know, basic. Rufus Wainwright, thank you so much for sharing your cultural life with us.

Thank you And if you enjoyed my conversation with Rufus Wainwright, just a reminder that the huge range of musical guests who we've had on This Cultural Life include Paul McCartney, Sting, Boy George, Pete Townsend, and from the classical world, Marin Olsopp, Antonio Papano, Kirida.

And many more. They're all available as podcasts on BBC Sounds or wherever you listen internationally. And please do subscribe to the series so that you never miss an episode. From series producer Edwina Pittman and me and thank you very much indeed. True life. How did Bruce Springsteen become the boss? And what did it cost him to get there? And maybe I was the guy that gets the guitar, I get the car, I get the girl. Then that adds up to a big song.

From the makers of the award winning first season of Legend, join me, Laura Barton, for the story of my favourite artist, Bruce Springsteen. We'll get to know the life beyond the legend to discover how a scrawny long haired introvert from small town New Jersey transformed into the iconic rock star figure of his eighties glory. We're all going, he has muscles now. Which was a little hard to take'cause we were scrawny. Do we have to go get muscles?

Legend, the Bruce Springsteen story from BBC Radio 4. Listen first on BBC Survey.