Back in episode 167, I talked about breaking the rules. And specifically, I was talking about people who watch my simple sales masterclass, or sign up for the simple sales blueprint course. And then contact me to ask about ways that they would like to tweak the system that I teach. So there are six steps to the simple Sale system, each one has some sub steps and you know,
little parts that go along. And for various reasons people want to adjust this or change this, you know, maybe instead of three collections, they want to sell four, maybe they are interested in including products instead of print credit, whatever the case may be, they will reach out and ask, can I modify the system in this way. And if you're interested in the answer to the most common requests for that, I would encourage you to go back
and listen to 167. But one of the most common requests is that people are interested in starting the process by doing something other than getting on the phone with prospective clients. I have for years been teaching that getting on the phone with your prospective clients is the very best way to ensure a smooth process from
that point forward. And there are a whole bunch of reasons that I teach about why you need to do that you can learn all about that in the simple sales masterclass, that is free on my website, you can go to this can't be that hard.com/simple to learn all about it. But that is a sticking point. For a lot of people for whatever reason, they don't want to get on the phone, they're concerned that their prospective clients won't want to get on the phone. And so they are looking for an alternative.
Well, today I am talking to two of my longtime students, Sabrina Jill and Melissa arlena, who have both transitioned away from getting on the phone with their prospective clients. And both of them are having great success. So my ego is not so fragile that I need to protect exactly the way that I do things at all
costs. I think it's probably one of the reasons that I've been successful in my business is that I have been willing to admit when somebody else is doing something as well or better than I am and hopefully learn as much as possible from them in the process. And far be it for me to say that the way that I do everything is the very best way or the right way for everyone. I still get on the phone with my clients, I still feel like that's the best
process for me. And it's still the process that I teach. However, I can't argue with the success that they're having. And they are checking all of the boxes in that they are sort of sticking to the spirit of why I want to get on the phone. They're just doing it by creating personal videos for their inquiries. So today, I'm talking to both of them, they're going to walk you through how they got into that what their different steps are, they're gonna give some recommendations.
And I know you're gonna love this one. Welcome to this can't be that hard. My name is Annemie Tonken. And I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it. And I can show you how Sabrina and Melissa, welcome to
this can't be that hard. I am so excited to have both of you on the show today. And for those people who end up watching any part of this. This is actually the first time that I've had three people on my screen. And I'm very excited to chat with both of you. We are talking about something that I haven't really talked about on the podcast in terms of the results, in that we are talking about the ways that you guys are using simple sales. Not according to the rules. You're a couple of
rebels, I love it. But I'm so you know, I'm all about like I am an expert on what I do. But I'm not necessarily the expert. The way that I do things works for me, it works for a lot of people. But at this point, I've been teaching for long enough that I have a lot of people who have modified stuff so so this is the first I hope it won't be a last but but you guys both
have great stories to share. So before we dive into all of those good things, Melissa, you have been a guest before, but for those people who have not heard you on the show before or aren't familiar with you can you give us a quick rundown of who you are, where you're based and what kind of work you do.
Yep, so I'm Melissa arlena. And I my lifestyle newborn photographer based out of South Florida, Miami Fort Lauderdale area.
Love it and Sabrina, this is your first time on the show. Welcome. Can you do the same? Just introduce who you are and where you work?
Yep, I'm Sabrina Rodin. I work in Charlotte, North Carolina. I do lifestyle documentary family photography. But I've kind of gone in the realm of branding and commercial here recently.
Nice love that we've got like our little southeast of the United States. chat today. So good. So hot right now. And we're all hopefully experiencing good quality air conditioning for the duration.
Well, wonderful. So
let's go ahead and kind of give a little bit of context for both of you. Sabrina, how long have you been using simple sales?
I think I've been using for about two and a half years, like probably the half was like studying it. And then two years ago, I started
great. And then Melissa are you're about the same, right? Yeah, I think so. Nice. So you guys are veterans of the process. At this point? You can speak really knowledgeably about it. Can you transport us for a moment back to before you had started using simple sales? Can you tell us a little bit about what you were using? And what attracted you to the simple sales method? Sabrina, I'll start with you this time.
I wasn't using anything and I was all over the place. I actually was mentored by Koli.
Oh, you know, sure. In college, James. Yeah. And
she had just I think that was right around when you both really first started a lot of the programs, and she just guided me towards you and was like, You need to charge more and have a system and
here's one to try
not to have a clue when I tell a client exactly what it is.
Yes, exactly. Perfect. And what about you, Melissa?
So for me, before I was all inclusive, and I just hit a point where I was like, I'm gonna have to take on more sessions, or I'm gonna have to charge more. And so I decided I didn't want to take on more sessions. So I found simple sales. And, you know, let me transform things. And even now, like two years later, I'm very confident when it comes to like pricing and where that needs to be, even if I'm making adjustments or things like that.
I know all of the ins and outs to make those adjustments and not be guessing.
Nice. Yeah, I feel like that's always my goal with any one that I work with, you know, in the, in the role of mentor, my job is not like I tell people how to run their businesses, like I'm grateful and thankful and honored to work with a lot of people who are brilliant, certainly, like amazing photographers, some people need help with the business side of it, but But you know, people who are out there, like tearing it up in the world
in all kinds of ways. So my feeling is if I can give some people some tools and some structure to, to make it so that they gain that confidence and gain sort of the background understanding. But then, as creatives, the creatives that we all are, like, can take that and kind of run with it. That to me is like the ultimate success, like, Great, take what I've taught you, and then turn that into something that like makes your business the best for you.
It's the whole like, business that you love thing, which is fantastic. So one of the first things that I teach in simple sales, and like one of the first steps of simple sales is education. And when I'm talking about the beginning of the education process with a client I am when I'm teaching, and I'm a pretty big stickler for, like get on the phone with your
clients. Like if someone contacts you to talk about booking a session, you need to get them on the phone, and I've got podcast episodes galore about like why I feel like that's a really important thing. And it works really well for me, it works really well for a lot of people in the simple sales blueprint, the course that I teach, I have like a whole unit on it, where we go through a script, and I have a sample column. There's like all this information to help empower
people. But to be honest, that is probably one of just a couple of the most like difficult parts of simple sales for people to get over it because they're like, I feel really intimidated about getting on the phone or like my clients don't want to get on the phone or whatever the case may be. I don't have time. Like I get all the all the different reasons. And for a long time, I was like, Well, come on, do it anyway. Do it scared. But I feel like this.
This is one of those that more and more I have heard people being like, Well, I appreciate what you're saying but I still don't want to do it. And the two of you in that I specifically chose you because in our blueprint Facebook group, you have shared some success that you have come across in not getting on the phone with your
clients. So um, so I want to kind of get more into How that works for you a little bit more about your process and and then also not just the process, but like the why behind your specific choice not to use phone calls. So, Sabrina, I want to start with you. You made the decision to forego the phone call right from the get go right? Two and a half years ago when you first started using simple sales. Okay, great. So when or so rather, what was the
motivation there? What was your rationale for switching up the process?
Well, my, the very first reason was because I am a family photographer. And I do like documentary. So life is just messy. And if you're watching this, you can see I'm literally living in the mess of children. I was like, I'm never gonna have time to be on the phone. And I have a really little one who's three. So the timing is wacky. And I know for a lot of other people, but my biggest reason is I have a lot of anxiety. So the idea of
following a script. Just I couldn't even look down at it and up and talk and think I just get very overwhelmed. And I know, like a lot of people have anxiety also. So they probably understand what I'm doing. For sure. So yeah, I just had a lot of anxiety. And I just wanted and I'm a visual learner. And so talking to someone through the computer, and I do it specifically geared to each
client. But I can show them visually, not only myself, but also like what they will get from it with my sales page.
Awesome. Okay, which then leads me directly into my next question, which is, I would love to hear kind of start to finish what your process before someone books is. So let's say that I am a potential client, I come across your website. And I'm like, Oh, I'm interested in potentially working with her. What do you have on your website? Like as far as a call to action?
Yep. So I have a an inquiry page where they fill out their information. Offhand, I can't think of exactly what it is. But it does ask them like what they're like looking for. A lot of people will open up and tell me, like, you know, I have two kids and whatnot. So from there, I get the inquiry, and I
get on my sales page. And if they say I have a dog and two kids, and a partner, I get on, and I change real quick, a couple of photos on my website on the sales page that has two kids, a dog and a partner. Because photography is a hard sell, because you're trying to sell something they don't see themselves in. Yes. So I try to let them see themselves in the photos. So then I hop on. And if it means asking my partner to watch the kids real quick, and I've been running around in the
heat, I go on as myself. Now I know that might not work with everybody, because you're a wedding photographer, you might want to look more put together. But I I am me. Tried and true. Look sweaty. I am just a little picture on that video recording. But I have like a, I just go through the sales page and just open up and I mentioned their name. So I do make a video specifically for each client or each inquiry.
Amazing. Okay, so let's I want to, like pause you there and just recap for people who might not necessarily know. So a sale? Is your sales page, something that is that they could have found on your website? Or is that something that's sort of behind the scenes?
So that's like a hidden page on my website. And they don't get that I tell them in the video. You know, you could pause here to share it with your partner. That was a big thing for me. What does it help like build engagement. I had a client one time, right as I had started the switchover she had wanted, the wife had wanted photos of them and their son in their front yard and in their house, and they had just moved there. And when she showed her husband, he was like so impressed with
the video. He brought it up when I was at the house and was like I didn't care what you cost the fact that you talked because, you know, she didn't have to go and try to you can see I haven't I gotta slow down.
No, no, you're doing great. And there's so you're sharing so much amazing, valuable information. I'm gonna like pick it apart in a minute, but you keep going for now.
So it's just like, I tried to think about how I would feel talking to someone on the phone. If they're sharing all this information with me. I would get really excited and just start babbling to my husband and he would just be like, Okay, so for me, it's I tried to think I know everybody's not like me, but I try to think like I'm trying to reach everybody so everybody can see themselves in the photos. Yeah, and just have all the information right there
well, and what you're doing, I mean, this is an amazing service. So you're basically helping your potential clients overcome all of these objections that they may have. And at the same time, be able to see themselves literally a little bit in the picture, or at least a facsimile of their, of their family or their situation in the picture. So just to talk a little bit more on the tech
side of things. So you put together a sales page that goes over the things that we that I would encourage you to talk about on a call. So things like your process, your pricing, how to book, all that sort of stuff, and making assumptions here. Is that all correct.
It's all that's all great product photos. Yes. And you're
but you're doing that and you're making a like a picture in picture video, kind of like a loom or the mean, there's a bunch of tools, you can use Vimeo, and you're going on, and you're like, as you are, because you're a documentary family photographer. So like, show up as you are. And and you say, like, hi, Sabrina, thanks so much for reaching out. It's you know, I'm, I just wanted to hop on and make a video for you. And we're gonna go through the process. How long do your videos
typically run? Like, what is that?
Yep. So under five minutes, I even tell them like, I may do a four minute video or a five minute video, in the little email real quick. I, at first, it took me forever to do this. But now I have it down to a science. And pretty much your sales page. If you write it, you're just kind of reading it a little bit. But I tried to get under five minutes. Nice. It's kind of like there's a lot of information.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I was gonna say it's kind of like when you are, you know, I don't know signing paperwork with if you're signing a rental agreement or buying a car or something like that. There's all this legal paperwork. And they're like, this paragraph says this, and this character here, initial here, this paragraph says that, so they they kind of walk you through it. So you're actually showing them this sales page, but you're going through and like explaining a little bit more
just using your words. Great. That sounds amazing. And so what are the next steps that you ask them to take once they've seen your video?
Yep. So I send them an email with the video. And it, you know, just pretty much it says, like, you know, you can get back like I look forward to hearing from you and you know, the magic line at the end, I'm hoping that they definitely contact you. And just like the simple sales, like when you after you've sent out, I think after you've been on the phone call, you send out the sales page. And then if no one, if you don't hear from them, you send the follow up email. So I
do the same thing. Normally, once they respond, they just pretty much say, Alright, let's get this on the calendar. If they want to talk to me on the phone, I've had a couple of clients, I'm great with it, then I've even zoomed with kids. So they see my face beforehand. Nice. Because sometimes I with certain children that people have asked for them to see my face. So sometimes I'll either zoom or make a video directly for children. Oh, cute. Just yeah, well working with I worked
with Crayola play sand. And we had a lot of models come in and it was you know, I wanted them to know who I was. So I got that idea from when I started that. So yeah, so they just asked the book, and then we just usually it's via email, we coordinate a date, and then go through the whole, you know, booking process
Brilliant, so you get to just leapfrogr the phone call 95% of the time altogether. Awesome. Okay, so I'm going to take you off the hot seat now and turn over to you, Melissa, because I feel like your journey to switching to video or adding video was different. And your process is a little different if I'm not mistaken. So why don't you walk us through that?
Yeah, so I noticed, and I'm sure a lot of other people notice this year specifically, I was getting ghosted, like left and right. I couldn't get people on the phone, I couldn't get them to return an email and I send like three follow up emails. So I am in their inbox over and over again. And up until January of this year, that worked. It was great. I booked everybody through email. And then this year, it was like just nothing.
And so I think I'd gone on the group and I was looking for other people of like, okay, how do you guys get people on the phone because people are just not even responding to that. And I came across Sabrina's post, and I was like, Why did I miss this? And I realized I missed it because I was driving to Florida last year when she posted right? So I watched her video and I was like, Alright, let's try this.
And so the next inquiry that came in, you know, and I think I peppered her with a few questions, some of the stuff she's talked about here, and I recorded the first video and I think I did three or four because I had plenty of inquiries coming in because of my SEO stuff. It just I couldn't get past that. So I think I recorded three or four videos. And I learned from those three or four, I use loom that I needed to not spend 10 minutes talking, like Sabrina said, under five minutes is the magic
mark. Because loom will tell you like at what point they stopped watching. Oh, right. Oh, I also learned don't put the collections link in the email, because they will just skip your video and just click on that, and then still never respond to you. So you know, some of these little things I learned. But once I got it into that, like under five minutes, loom lets you do like a call to action. So unlike where Sabrina will go in and change photos, I don't change photos, I don't change up
the sales page. And I do have the little button in the corner that I tell them. If you want to view this page, just click this button up here and you can review it on your own. And like she was saying, I kind of just highlight like, this is what it is to book. This is what a session is like. But one of the things I really liked that she pointed out is it's a video that then the husbands can also watch. So if the wife might get price, you know, push back on pricing, she can show it to him.
And I specifically say like, Hey, this session is going to be 45 minutes for a family session because I know dad doesn't want to be there any more than 45 minutes. And then that kind of gets him on my side at that point. He's like, Oh, she's right. I don't want to be there for 45 minutes.
I like this woman. She's saying all the things that I want to hear. Yeah,
exactly. And so then that way, they have that link, they can click on it, they can go review everything I'm able to talk about with simple sales, like, Hey, you guys can buy the digital files. I know, that's what you want. But I also want to give you a gift of print credit, that you can have things on your walls, and I'm able to talk through some of that stuff that I don't necessarily talk
through on the sales page. You know, it's talking about like, kids have better self esteem when there's photos of them and their families up in their homes and stuff and, and get those points across. And so when I started doing that, once I got past those first three or four that were too long, and started tightening it up, everyone started booking a phone call at that point, which was funny because I was hoping I'd be able to go Sabrina's route, and they would just skip straight to
booking. But I did tell them like if you have any more questions, I'm happy to jump on a phone chat. And suddenly 75% of them want to jump on a phone chat. And then it's like out of those I'm booking almost every you know that I'm booking 75% that were on the phone chat. So I went from like, nobody wants to even talk to me anymore beyond reaching out and saying I love your work. Oh, nevermind. So okay, now I'm getting them on the phone. I'm getting the
bookings. And it's like, oh, okay, now we're getting back to normal.
So I love that. And I love the fact that you had something that was working, and then you noticed that it wasn't working. And then instead of like, throwing out the whole thing and being like, saying the thing that a lot of people say, which is I think my pricing is too high. You said I think that you know there's a breakdown here somewhere in the steps, what can I do to troubleshoot
that and then you tested it. I mean, I think that that's the beauty of being a small business entrepreneur is that like we have this nimble business that we can shake up and like tweak all the time as needed. But it's so much smarter to make those small tweaks rather than like the big tweaks. And so what both of you are doing that is brilliant, is that you are essentially taking people, you're meeting them where they
are right. In your case, Melissa, you had people who were just didn't they didn't want to get on the phone. And for us, Sabrina, you were meeting your own needs, just season of life, anxiety, all those things and being like I really getting on the phone is going to reduce my enjoyment of my own business. Okay, good. Don't do that. But you found a way to lead them on that same path, which is like, okay, great. I'm gonna send you
this video. Once you see the video, then if you want to get on the phone, we can get on the phone. And once we get on the phone, you know, here's the booking process. You're still answering their questions, you're still making it personal, showing them your face, giving them an opportunity to kind of get to know you a little bit. And for sure you are creating a situation that feels different from somebody sending you a PDF.
Yeah, that was a big thing. I felt like the videos at that point. You know, we know everybody's sending an email out to five different photographers. Yeah. And so I try to be fast because I usually get compliments on that and then this differentiates me from everybody else because they're like, Well, no one else sent me a video right?
Definitely. That's so good. Okay, so I would love to hear other like, Melissa, you are both of you talked about it being shorter. What else do you have any tips and tricks for people who are interested in starting to create videos for for potential clients?
Let Sabrina go first.
But my biggest tip for Pretty much what I said was, for me at least, is gearing it towards the client for them to visit. Like I just like I said, I'm a very visual person, that's how I learn to tell, I want to see myself in the situation. So for me, it's just loving the client to see themselves in the photos. That's why I do like to go in, and it is a little bit of
extra work. But once you get it down, I'm assuming just like the script, once you get to know the script, like on the phone, once you get to us to putting the photos in real quick on the website and whatnot, it really helps. And also like the little thing like saying, press pause here. For me, for any like lifestyle photographers doesn't have to be documentary, I just feel like showing yourself like who you are. It's just relatable. I know even videos take up time. So definitely do
the shorter time limit. Yeah, I would say just finding a way to show the client like, their importance and that you can see them in, they can see themselves in the photo.
Yeah. And that personalization of the sales page thing, I imagine you just at this point, have something like a folder on your desktop of images that it's like if somebody's inquiring about a newborn session, you have some newborn photos that you can pepper in, if you've got, you know, a same sex couple, like you've got those photos to kind of show them that, like you're used to working with their kind of family, whatever that may
look like. Yeah, I think when you have everything in business is like a trade off with, you know, time and effectiveness and all that sort of thing. So when you are in a place where you have the time to do that, and this, as you pointed out does not need to take a lot of time. You can you know, you can really make a bigger impact that way. So personalization, amazing keeping it short. Melissa, do you have anything to add to that?
I would say with the personalization. So I always open up the video talking about whatever they told me. So if they're pregnant, congratulations, you're having a baby boy. And then along with that, even if I'm not personalized the sales page, if there's a session, like if I get somebody who's like we want to beach maternity session, I will pull up on another tab, a beach maternity session, and I will tell them, I'm going to send you
the link to this gallery. So you can look through all of the images, so you can still personalize it towards them. And I know some people in the group were asking like, well, could I just do a general video and I think Sabrina and I both have learned that, like, you want to do a personal one, because then that comes across better to them that connects with them. They know that it's made for them.
And I also liked her tip where she said she will put she just said it where she'll put in the email how long the video is so that they know what to expect. And I was like, Yeah, that's right, that one down? Yeah. Like I'm gonna steal that one going forward. So I think, definitely the personalization. The thing too, with loom if you don't pay for it, they give you like a five minute cap. So like I might as well use that, you know, that stops you right there. You've got to figure out how to do it
in less than five minutes. I think those are the big things I did. Let's see I did. And then like I said, I do the call to action. So that that way they can go view the page on their own. And then yeah, and then don't include don't include the pricing link on on the page in the email. Yeah, yeah, people are just going to skip it and go straight to that. But you can include links to other galleries that might be similar to theirs, you can talk about it, that kind of thing. And then Sabrina also
she shows product. And so I'll make sure to grab a couple products and kind of show them on screen. And then I think she had also at one point, weren't you doing? Like a booking bonus?
Yes. Or like, like a photo book. And then they can always upgrade using their pre credit.
Yeah, and I love that idea, too. So sometimes I'll throw in like a little booking bonus of just like, Okay, let's see, can we push this needle faster? where maybe they're just gonna go ahead and book and not get on the phone with me. So
like, do you offer that? Is it a time limit? Like if you book within the next? Yes. 48 or 72 hours or something like that?
Yes. And that's helped me get people to respond faster
I'm all about the carrot, right? Like carrot versus stick. I go carrot route every time make it better for somebody. That's so good. I want it. So yeah, sure. And that's a nice way for you as the photographer to include the things that you want to see people have in their hands. Now, I will just caveat that for the general audience that anything like that, that you're building into, your process has to be accounted for when you run your numbers and make your prices.
We're not putting ourselves in debt to get a to get a client. Excellent. This is so good. I really wanted to come back, Melissa, to what you were saying to about the fact that like automating things is great. We all know that I'm all about like, let's automate it. Let's make it simple. Let's make it easy. However, we are not in we didn't, you know, the people who got into photography as their career, we're not looking to press a button and have like a
product pop out at the end. This is a, it's an intimate business. And there are certain parts of the workflow that require, I believe, the time and attention that only we can give them. Like, that's what makes us and booking with us unique. And so. So I love the fact that you have both listened to other people talk about creating a generic welcome video. And you're both like, Nope, that doesn't work.
It's the same reason that I get on the phone with everyone, because I want to have, even though 99% of the conversations that I have follow a very specific kind of formula. And we talk about a lot of the same things. And I answer a lot of the same questions. Each one of those is not only a little bit different, because it's a different person and a different
situation. But it also on their end, of course, that hopefully they haven't had any other conversations that are exactly like that with other photographers. But so it makes their experience of me feel personal and feel unique. So anyway, I'm just really glad that you brought that up. Because I do think it's a really important thing as you are whether you're using simple sales or any other kind of system to sell and fulfill your,
what you're offering. I think that you really have to think through what can be automated and what needs to stay hyper personal. And the beautiful thing about automation. And like scaling down, the time you spend on other stuff is that it gives you the time to sit down and make personal videos for all the inquiries that come in or whatever. So anyway, well, this is just been such a great interview. And I'm, I'm a little tempted to try this in my own business. I'm like, Can I change
what I'm doing? Only because like, I love testing different stuff out and you guys make a really compelling argument. I do think that there is kind of a societal shift. Maybe it's just like, from the time that cell phones and social media and smartphones rather and social media came online, people are getting less and less used to having phone calls. So it may just be that like, over time, this is a really important avenue to explore. It might not be quite the right time in my
business. But I know that a lot of people listening today will have gotten a ton of inspiration and value from both of you on this. So before we close out, Melissa, can you tell everyone where they can find you online?
Oh, yeah, I'm on Instagram at Melissa Arlena. You can find me MelissaArlenaPhotography.com on the web.
Awesome. And Sabrina? What about you?
Yep, on Instagram. I am Sabrina Jill Photography. And then same for website is SabrinaJillPhotography.com
Excellent. I will link all of that stuff in the show notes. Can I can I add on to that? That if anybody has follow up questions that they can ping you in the DMS or all that kind of thing? Is that okay?
Sure. Yeah, sure.
Good. Well, thank you both so much. It is such a joy to chat with you and again, I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and and your creativity with the with the audience. Well, that's it for this week's episode of This can't be that hard. I'll be back Same time, same place next week. In the meantime, you can find more information about this episode, along with all the relevant links, notes and downloads at this can't be that hard.com/learn If you liked the podcast, be sure to hit the
subscribe button. Even better, share the love by leaving a review on iTunes. And as always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.