Ep 170: Purposefully Part-Time with Erin Brown

really anywhere. So we went back and forth by email a little bit, and I was like, Who should I talk to about this? This is such a great topic. I totally think you're right. And eventually, she was like, Well, if you need me to come on, I'll talk about it. But I'm not an expert. And so that's exactly what we're

doing. But one of the things that she said in one of her emails really kind of drove home the main point that I want to cover today, she said, the some of the part timers I know are she actually said a lot of the part timers that I know, are really struggling with impostor syndrome and comparison issues. Either that or they are in a place where they've decided to kind of move on to other jobs or fizzling out altogether. And she was saying she feels like the main reason for that is that

there is this weird. It's a kind of a no man's land where these people feel like they're alone in their particular issues. So today, we're having a very

unstructured conversation. And Aaron is not coming to this with any expertise other than her own experience as an intentionally part time photographer, to discuss what that means what's different about going part time versus going full time and what challenges that will mean that you face and the thing that I really want to make sure that everyone takes away from this conversation, whether you are part time or full time or just starting out and kind of heading in the growth direction, and

you're not sure where that's going to land. What I want you to take away from this is that no matter what your setup is, you need to be really intentional about what it is that you want out of your business, and then pursue creating that rather than letting the outside world define that for you. So without further ado, I am going to cue the music and get into my conversation with Erin. Welcome to this can't be that hard. My name is Annemie Tonken.

And I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it. And I can show you how. Erin Brown, welcome to the podcast. This is actually your

second visit here. But the first time that I've interviewed you, so I'm super excited to have this chat. And I feel like this is such a great topic. But before we dive in, why don't you say a little hello in case everyone missed your debut appearance and tell us where you are and what you do.

friends. We do this by choice. It's not like we're just waiting around to for more clients to come. But all the messaging out there is this heavy hitting like, you can be making six figures and you could be you know, you know, booking yourself out three years or whatever. And you're like Those aren't my

goals. There's an entire population of photographers out there who want this to stay a small either side, hustle like you've got a full time job or another part time job and you want to keep both or Are your you know, you are like, you run the house or you do whatever. And you do this in a small portion of your time, and you want to keep it that way, which is 100% valid, but it does present some unique challenges and things to think about. And

you're absolutely right. I think your community is very underserved. So I'm very excited to be having this conversation and getting your perspective on some of it, because you've done some really interesting thought work around what it means to be a part time photographer, and kind of some of the weird mindset stuff around that. So yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna

get into all of it. Let's start with the a little bit of history with your conversation around this topic, like tell me about how it first came up, or how it first occurred to you or when you first started to notice that that was a different thing. From a lot of what you were hearing in the education world.

jobs. And this is his is what works for us and what we want right now for our family. I am doing part time with the hope that my kids right now are 12, 10 and 5, so I have one that's just in kindergarten. And I think I will do this full time. But right now I'm very purposefully part time. And yeah, just recently, I started to notice, in kind of a zoom accountability group that I have, and in talking with some photographer, friends, I have a lot of friends who are part time

for different reasons. And I realized how kind of like in the shadows they were, or in a conversation like holding back. And so I have started to have those conversations. And I guess, just to back up a little bit when I say part time, too, I don't mean full time without a full workload. And I don't mean hobby photographers, I mean, I set up a business, and I am purposefully working less than full time. And so yeah, so I started to notice that and to notice people shying away from

even using those words. And just recently, I said something about like why part time. And it's like, I felt like people didn't even know how to describe themselves, even though in this group, multiple were part time. And they were kind of it was like, oh, yeah, yeah, me too. And it was in the context of kind of comparing how much work we had and how, and putting stuff on social media. And like the content that we have out

there. And I don't know, it just got my brain going and thinking about you know, I've, as I've said to before, I'm a such a connector at heart. And so this was stemming from a place of like, there should be a place for us to talk. And we shouldn't be talking about part time photography. And we should be talking to other people doing this purposefully. Because we do have our own unique challenges and ways that our businesses

work. So yeah, so I just thought it was important to start to start talking about that.

photography. Is this funny. Um, it's not like anybody does. Oh, yeah, I'm a part time dentist because I was cleaning people's teeth for fun in my free time. And I thought, You know what, I could do this more formally, but I don't want to give up my other job like that just doesn't that does not exist. And so. So it is kind of an unusual scenario where it's a creative endeavor that people, some people do for free for fun for themselves.

Some people do professionally, full time, make full time money. And then some people kind of bridge that gap for whatever their set of reasons or circumstances. So I think that's great. So let's talk a little bit about the similarities and the differences. So one of the big things that I think about when I think about part time photography work is I don't know that I, I think it would be a hard sell for me, because it's so much work to run a business.

So I feel like whether you're full time or you have two clients, you have to do all the setup stuff, and you have to own the gear, and you have to subscribe to the software. And you have, you know, there's all these different costs, both monetary and timewise, that are required to set up and run a business. And then of course, there's like, your own professional development and education and all that sort of

stuff. So like, there are these ongoing baseline things that you have to spend time and money on, no matter how big or small your business is. So those are the same. But then if you're talking about doing that, and then only spending, let's say, Well, let me ask you, how many hours a week do you generally work?

photographer. So like you said, those things aren't really different. It's just, you know, the, I guess for me the volume that looks different, right. So yeah, it's, that's that, to me is kind of what I'm shooting for is maybe like 25 hours. Okay.

there. So it's almost like, oh, well, maybe I'm also a part time, but I wasn't for a long time. So I guess I still think of myself as a full time photographer. Plus, this fills the balance of my time doing this can't be that hard. And that is still very much focused on photography, like I'm still thinking about and talking about and working on photography stuff all the time.

really huge thing for me. I've told several people that even if I wasn't using that system right now, just going through the process of answering all the questions and thinking through my business in a different way, was really big. And that's what made me start saying a lot more.

Well, I'm part time and I'm doing this part time and I was purposefully thinking about that in a way with like a growth mindset, you know, of setting it up so that it could be full time and I was just, you know, doing less sessions because I don't really want to change that down the line. I just want to make it manageable within the hours that

I have in my business. But as you said you were saying it think what's really interesting is that we do have the same costs, we have the same, we have the same gear we have, we want to take all the same education classes and go to conferences. And so on the expense side, it is kind of all of the same

stuff. So I think what's unique is that it becomes really hard to manage the social media side of things, or, you know, maybe what gets left off is thinking about your business, or blogging, or all of those things. And I don't say that, I kind of hear myself saying that, and I don't mean to sound whiny about it. And I don't mean to sound like part time is a terrible thing. It's just what

some of us are doing. And I think, like I said, my whole reason for thinking about it and talking about it is, I think it's super important to acknowledge what you are doing, and to make sure you're doing it purposefully. And to make sure you have yourself surrounded by people who can talk about it and support you. I have all kinds of photographer friends, but I have really unique different conversations with ones that can relate to supporting a very busy

partner. Also being the one that maybe is more of doing a lot more of the parenting responsibility in a relationship, or just people that even the people that I know that are working full time, just that limited hours, everyone has limited hours, whether you're working full time or part time, but it feels like there's a difference of needing to be intentional with it. When you're part time. The expense that I don't have is childcare. You know, that seems to be the one

big difference. That's like a leap. You know, that sometimes feels like when I'm talking to people that I'm like, Oh, wow, you're you're really full time. You have full time childcare. That's totally different than so yeah, but those are big things. I mean, I feel like when you make those kinds of choices, if you have a family, if you're going into that childcare side of things, usually you have to be full time to support it. Exactly. support it.

boundaries. It's like, okay, so am I sitting there while my kids are trying to, you know, play with me, or they need to get dropped off. And I'm frantically trying to edit that last set of photos on my thing, or, you know, write that quick email. That is the thing that I think is hard. And that's hard, regardless of whether you're full time or part time. I mean, we all none of us work 24 hours a day. And our business because most of us run it either from home or on a computer that can

come with us home. We never, it's hard to establish those really hard boundaries. And when you are part time, it makes it even more essential. I think that you get really clear about what your boundaries are not just on time, but also on like, well, great, I'm getting all these inquiries, because it's the busy season. And you know,

my business is really good. But I am, I don't want to be part time, I don't want to be staying up until one o'clock in the morning trying to finish work, just because this is not the thing, you know, I don't pay for daycare, or whatever the case may be, or I have to go to my day job at eight o'clock in the morning.

turning into a business. So I guess I'm gonna do it this way. I guess Of course, I'll take every single job and what's your budget, we'll make it work. And that was fine. And it was up and down for me with having kids too. And so I was really okay with the fluctuation of what was

happening. But I'm in more of a stability phase here and wanting to even things out and so a couple years ago and starting to think through more things I did I kind of had a list of like things that I wanted to think through very purposefully and for me that was how many hours I could work and how that translates into my business.

into a salary and into a career and into my life and how to make those hours worthwhile reconsidering, you know, my numbers, implementing simple sales system thinking about my worth and making sure I was communicating that correctly. It's more important for me to talk about part time with other photographers, I don't need my clients to show I'm part time I function with them the same as being full time, I want them to, you know, respect my work and

understand what I do. But yeah, for me, it meant, you know, blocking my time creating a more specific calendar with separation between life and work and not letting myself go outside of those those hours and in creating very specifically time for creativity, because that is the easiest thing to let go is like that space for, you know, I don't know, just your your artists dates and, and creating and trying new things

and, and even community. I mean, that's a very easy thing to like go is time to talk to another photographer friend, or zooms or things like that. Yeah. I'm glad that I have always prioritize that because I think it's one of the most important things keeping me motivated.

people get into it. I don't want to say unintentionally, but it's like they become a part time photographer, kind of the way that you're describing where they like, are doing enough work for friends, or, you know, they're enjoying it enough as a hobby that they're like, you know, I think I'm gonna push this into, I'm gonna go ahead and like, take the jump and set

up a small business. But I think that when I've spoken to people in the past who are in that position, and they're maybe two or three years in, it's like, they're starting to recognize that this thing is growing arms and legs in their lives, and it's running away with them, or, you know, they're letting it take over in parts of their lives that they kind of never

had any intention about. So I think if I had a single goal for this episode, it would be that the people who are listening who have never really said to themselves, I'm part time they have let the sort of photography focused media steamroll them into thinking like, we're all trying to get bigger all the time, or we're all aiming to grow. And they've never even maybe said out loud, or in their, in their mind very clearly that like, Nope, I am

where I want to be. Now, how do I make this sustainable as it is? Because it's kind of a different. It's a different set of things to think through. And what I was also going to say about people that I've talked to, in the past who have sort of been part time by default, is that they're almost across the board. They have said, well, I can't charge very much, because I'm just part time. This phrase, like, just part time is a really significant one. And it's like, yeah, but then back to my

dentist. Thing, nobody falls into dentistry, but they do become a dentist and choose to work part time, some of them and

clients. If anything, you should probably be charging more. Now, you're not necessarily Yeah, you're you're not necessarily you're you're probably also lowering your financial goals in terms of you know, what the amount of money that you want to add to your bank account over the course of the year is probably smaller than someone who's dedicating all or most of their time, their work time to

that. So it all balances out but I do think it's really, really important for anyone, but in this case, specifically part time photographers to be really clear on their numbers like I have this number of hours a week, which means I can shoot this many sessions per week or per month. And this is my financial goal. So these you know, like, boop, boop, boop, boop boop boop boop. This is the

amount I Need to charge. And what's beautiful about that, and I know you had said that like, potentially, once your kids are older or whatever you would see your business growing into full time. What's beautiful about that is that if you set your business up that way, as a part time photographer, at any point, if you wanted to, or needed to scale up, the only thing you would need to do is get more clients in the door. Other than that, you everything else would run the same. Yes.

how I set up my business. And it wasn't until I sat down with such an intent to do that, and to lay out my numbers block my time, and tell myself who I am. Tell myself what I am doing here. And to literally say it out loud. Like even though I had these things written down, and you know, had done my work on paper, just starting to talk to other people out loud, is totally different. Because I've been in that comparison game of like, I'm not posting enough.

And oh, my gosh, this person has X amount of sessions per month. And we can so easily compare apples to oranges, and it's in our businesses. Yeah, we're all doing the same creative work, but you have to know what your goals are, and compare that part, you know, to other people or not compare at all, but but I just mean, it just it's not fair to, to feel less than if you actually are doing what you set

out to do. And I think in talking with people, I've realized, it's easy to feel when you're part time, like you are not meeting the same marks that other people are. But if those aren't your goals, who cares? Who cares? Exactly. saying that out loud, is very freeing and important and just it It shifts your mind to the important things. Yeah,

you want to take on. And so you know, the other obviously, we do a lot of things as photographers outside of photographing and editing, there is marketing and all that sort of stuff. But if you are aiming to get fewer clients, hopefully there's a little less pressure on the on the marketing piece. And there's you know, there's that scales up and down, at least in some accordance with the size of your

business. So there are parts that are the same no matter what the size, and there are other things that do adjust accordingly. But if we are not really careful about gaining clarity on what it is that our goals are, everyone out there is going to talk to you or make you feel like you should be push push pushing all the time.

me. And right now some of the things that are working are that I usually dedicate like my first half an hour at least of my day when my my my part time involves my children going to school and be working during their school day. It also I didn't talk about this but it also involves I do something different, called Worthington week. Days sessions. And so I have kind of like a

mini session option. And it's run just like simple sales, but I only offer it during weekdays only when my kids are in school. So there's some things that I do. Because I don't use childcare. And I am working part time that I only do certain types of sessions like during the day. So anyway, speaking of the daytime, I always like start with like half an hour for planning, planning or journaling. Or for me, a lot of times my planning involves just a walk, I know a lot of people

do that. And it's like my kind of internal brain dump. And then coming home, it's like turns into list form, I have this great little notepad that says top three, because I could create a list of 8 million things. But the top three idea really helps me. So I do that. And I have changed prioritizing, and only taking the work that makes sense. Everyone should do that. But for me, especially having more limited hours. I realized recently, I don't love doing senior photos, you know,

and some things like that. So I'm purposeful, I have to be more careful about having backup plans and babysitters when my kid things change. Because I usually need to figure that out. And I don't have childcare. Some other things I wrote down were regular conversations with my partner about expectations, talking with other part time photographers, both commiserating. And just like encouraging each other. And I find I have to be really particular about blocking writing time for blogging for my

newsletters. That doesn't come easily for me. And it's always kind of a last thing. So I definitely work outside of my home to avoid distraction when possible. Like I said, I offered the sessions during school hours I have tried to do, it makes me think of Kate Thompson, she does something like this, maybe like some client, no client communication Wednesdays or something. But I have tried to do work free Wednesdays because I am part time. Yeah, I try to

make those a no work day. So that that helps me kind of create that space. And then just evaluating at the end of the year. And that was my other thing is like thinking through the year and like did this work, what works, I make myself create a list of things that I did that were awesome and things that I want to do the next year, and to just be purposeful. And using that time.

those are so important. And I think that it all kind of comes back to the clarity and mindfulness piece, like what am I trying to accomplish here? What do I need to do in order to accomplish that? And then I'm

going to put my blinders on. And do me not try and and then and then I love the fact that you're talking about so much like we've come back over and over to the fact that you really do need to create community with some people who fall into the same category so that you can get support in that because it is it can be kind of a war of attrition when you're coming up against an industry that just wants you to to fall into the more and more and more

mentality. Well, Erin, this has been an amazing conversation. Let everybody know if they don't already follow you or know your work where they can find you.

thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.