EP 167: Breaking the Rules

going on 16. And so as I'm sure you can probably imagine, I hear a lot of complaints around the house about how unfair it is that they don't get to make all the decisions that they want to make for themselves write things like exactly when to go to bed, when to get up what they get to watch on TV, how much time they get to spend on screens, in general, why they can't have ice cream for dinner, I am not a super micromanaging kind of a mom, but I am definitely one who has some rules, expectations,

whatever you want to call them. And I hear all the time about how different my kids lives are going to be in the future when they are in charge. And in the meantime, I just tell them, Well, I'm giving you the best strategies that I know on how to stay safe, healthy, and ready to face all the opportunities and challenges that life is inevitably going to throw your way because that's my job as your mom. And I know that my

kids wouldn't believe this. But the truth is, you know, this is hilariously familiar to me, just from the other side of the parenting fence, right? My experience when I was a teenager, really wasn't all that different from theirs. My parents and I had pretty different ideas about how things should work. But while I lived at home, my parents tried their best to help me make good decisions. Sometimes they did that just by example. Other times it was, you know, they laid down the law, this is how

you're going to do things. And I remember a conversation that I had with my mom shortly before I left for college. And you know, this was probably me telling her how I can't wait to leave. I'm gonna live by my own rules. And she probably said something along the lines of like, okay, fine, you'll see you'll do things differently for a while. But ultimately, you'll see why

we put these rules in place. And she was right, you know, I totally can understand, in retrospect, why they put all the rules in place that they did, why they made the suggestions that they did. And even though as an adult, I haven't come completely around on everything. I mean, I am not my parents, I live my life a bit differently from the way that they live their lives, but many of their

lessons have come through. And now many of them many of these rules are being kind of passed on in a modified version for my kids, right. On the other hand, there are parts of my life in which I do operate differently from my parents. And so I imagine that when my kids are fully grown, and they're living their adult lives, they're not going to do things exactly the same way that I do them either. And honestly, as long as that works for them, it's 100%. Okay, by me, my parents, and I get

along great. They see my life and are very proud, even if all of the decisions that I make aren't exactly the way that they would live their lives. We're not creating clones, right? We are creating humans who are able to live and work and succeed in the world of their own volition. So I was thinking about this cycle. The other day, after spending some time chatting with some of my students who are in a

simple sales blueprint. It is not uncommon for people who are new to simple sales to have lots of questions about the structure of the system, and specifically, whether it's going to be okay, if they change this thing, or tweak this step, in order to better align with their own preferences, or their perceived client preferences. And that's always kind of a weird position

for me, right? On the one hand, I know what has worked well for me, I know what I've seen work for other students, I know what I've seen not work so well for people. But on the other hand, I'm not my students, mom, right. I'm not here to lay down the law. Nor do I think that my system is perfect or perfect for

everyone. I think that there are some tweaks that can be made you who are listening to this show, you are an independent, you know, entrepreneur, photographer, professional, whatever you want to call it, and you are welcome to make whatever choices and changes in your business that you like whether that's to completely skip over the system that I teach altogether, totally fine, or whether you know you want to adopt that in your business and do every step exactly the way

that I say you should do it or change things up. I mean, all of those are absolutely You're right. And not only do I want you to feel free to do that, I want you to succeed even if you're changing things up, but I will say that I do know that many of the changes that people make or want to make in the simple sales system in particular do have the tendency to change the results of the system right? Sometimes for

better, but often for worse. And so today I want to discuss three things that many simple Sales Users say that they want to change about the simple sales process, and how I've seen those changes play out. Welcome to this can't be that hard. My name is Annemie Tonken. And I help photographers run profitable, sustainable

businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard, you can do it. And I can show you how.

So before we dive into these changes, I just want to put out there that obviously, if you are new to this podcast, or you happen to never have taken my masterclass on the simple sales system, I'm not going to go into all of the steps here, it's makes for a long podcast episode and all of that information is available for free. In the simple sales masterclass that I offer, you can find that at this can't be that hard.com/simple.

And if you aren't familiar with the process, it may be good to actually do that before you come and listen to this conversation about tweaks. Because if you aren't familiar with the system, as it is sort of taught, it might be confusing to try and jump into changing it right away. So again, that is at this can't be that hard.com/simple, I will link it in the show notes. And it's good for you. Again, even if you're not interested.

If you like this podcast, you like the way that I teach, it's probably a good thing for you to understand the system that I base my entire business off of because I think it'll give you some insight into the way that I operate. So with that said, let's dive into change. Number one. And this may be the most common change request that I see discussed in the Facebook group.

It's actually discussed not only in the blueprint group, but even more commonly in my open Facebook group where if you're not a member, you should come join, it's just for photographers who are interested in focusing on their businesses. And because I'm the person who runs that group, obviously, people do end up talking about

simple sales. So a lot of people who haven't gone on to invest in the course that I teach, but have learned the basics of the system, I want to talk about what it might mean if they include all the files with each of their three collections. And the reason that I want to talk about this is that and I'm, I jump in on these Facebook threads. And you know, I try to

explain this to people. But this is actually one of the more hardline, like, I really don't think that if you're going to do this, it's going to work as simple sales, it kind of changes the whole dynamic of the collection structure. But I do understand where people are coming from a lot of photographers out there these days are using all inclusive to sell their photography. And so their clients are used to paying, you know, upfront and then getting all the digital files. And that's just kind of

true in the world, right? A lot of people now are trained that when you hire a photographer, you should end up with all the files. So there is some education that's required to get people to understand that not only do they not get all the files with that initial payment that they make, but once they see their images, they get to choose among three collections, and only one of them if any of them includes all the files, and that's going to be the one that

they spend the most on. So I understand that there is this intimidation that if you stop including all the files all the time, you may get more pushback, you may have more people who aren't willing to hire you. And that is certainly a possibility. Although I think that you know, there is a pretty strong argument to be made that people don't really need all the files most of the time. There are some

exceptions. With weddings, I think that it's reasonable for someone to want to have all of their final images with documentary photography, where you've got a lot of small pieces that make up a bigger story. You need more digital files to tell

that story. But when we're talking about lifestyle or portrait photography of any kind, most of the time when people hire a photographer, they are looking For a few kind of banner images that are going to be hung on their walls, or included in an album, or you know, sent out in their holiday cards, they want a few photos.

And as long as you are giving them some photos with their smaller collections, that can be a good way to empower your clients to not have to overspend to not have to pay for more than what they need. Again, it does require a bit of a mindset shift. But it doesn't only require that mindset shift on the part of your client, it also requires your own mindset shift, you have to believe that you are giving people a complete product without providing them with all of the digital files.

And to a certain extent, I've heard people say, Well, you know, not only am I concerned that I'm not going to get hired, but also I don't want to have images that my clients don't get, I feel like that's being unfair to them. And, you know, ultimately, we all have files that our clients don't get,

right. I don't know, anyone who photographs, you know, goes and photographs, let's say a family, you click the shutter 400 times, and then you deliver 400 images, we all call our images, what we are doing is offering our clients the opportunity to call that list even further down to the ones that they love the very most and keep those and not pay for the rest. It is a mindset

shift. I recognize that but I don't think I think that there is a certain amount of ego involved in us saying like, but it wouldn't be fair for my clients to not end up with all the images. Inevitably, I think that there are going to be images that our clients don't connect with as much. And I think that it serves them better to give them the option to opt

out. But the bigger problem with not making that mindset shift, if you want to adopt simple sales and not stick with all inclusive, is that by including all the digital files in all three collections, you're kind of going to change the dynamic of what your clients are going to choose. If you include all the digital files in each collection, all they are deciding among is three collections with three different amounts of print credit, and

with a lot of historical data. I know that clients by and large will say, well, it would be nice to have all that print credit, but I don't need it. So I'm going to just go with the smallest collection. And then you know, later on down the road, we will will buy prints or we'll make prints with the

digital files that we have. So if you set sample sales up with all the digital files in each collection, you may book clients, you may get work, but I would be willing to bet that you will sell collection a your smallest collection to the vast

majority of your clients. Now, if you follow my formulas for setting up your collections, and setting your prices and running your numbers and all that sort of thing, that's okay, because you will still be profitable with each session, the way that I teach simple sales, every collection, including your smallest collection makes you profitable, however, you are robbing yourself of the opportunity to make more than the minimum that you need to

make. And ultimately, I think you're kind of robbing your clients have the option to find out not the option but the opportunity and the likelihood that they will find out what it means to have a bigger print credit. If they're getting that tiny print credit, they're gonna get a couple of prints or you

know, something small. Versus when my clients 80% of my clients purchase collection See, so my top collection and that means in my clients case, they end up with $600 in print credit, they can buy a small album for that they can purchase framed prints for that they are getting something really meaningful with that print credit. And then they start to learn the difference firsthand between what it is to get a professional product and what it is to sort of put ordering something from Shutterfly on

their permanent to do list. So I think that it's kind of a lose lose scenario when you just default to having your clients go with collection a over and

over again. So change number one is people who want to include all the digital files with each collection, and that for me is a pretty hard now the second thing that my students often bring up as a change that they would like to consider or want feedback on is that they want to include specific products in their collections rather than or in addition to the print credit that I teach that you should

include in your collection. So, so for instance, rather than saying, you know, collection B is 20, digital files and $200, and print credit, they say collection B is 20 digital files and a framed eight by 10. So the reason that some people say that they want to do that is that they would like their clients to have particular products that they love. And in particular, I hear this a lot with wanting to include an album with their top

collection. And I think that we as photographers, most of us have a very soft spot in our hearts for albums, I do, I totally get it. And I think that when we are able to see this album and what it means and like the longevity of that product, and how it gets passed down through the family, like I get it, we want our clients to have

that thing. And we feel like once they have it, they're going to want more of them, and they're going to show their friends and it's going to you know, it's a good product to sell. So I don't disagree with that at all. However, I still discourage people from putting products in their collections rather than print credit. There's nothing inherently wrong with steering, wanting to steer your clients toward a particular

product. However, when you force that product, you are giving someone a very easy way to say no to you. I'm all about trying to make it as easy as possible for our clients to say yes to

us. So giving someone print credit, where we say you can purchase anything in the online store with us gives that it's harder for them to say, well, I don't want that some people will some people will say I just want digital files, in which case I say, great I offer I offer individual digital files in the you know, in the store, you could you could spend your print credit on digital files, or you could spend your print credit on a gift that you're giving to grandparents if you know,

somebody comes back and says, Well, we're moving in a month. So I don't want to buy a framed print, because I don't know where that's gonna go great. Here are all these wonderful giftable ideas that you could use your print credit towards. So I haven't answered ready for all of those kinds of objections. But if I were to say to somebody, you know, the top collection includes an album, and they say, I don't want an album, I don't really have much to say back to that.

Well take it or leave it, you get an album or then you get into the whole thing where they say, well, we don't want an album, can we just get extra

prints for that? Can we do this and then you're negotiating, but it puts your client in a position of, you know, well Is she going to bend on this and if she bends on this, Then will she bend on other stuff that she says is her policy, I would rather start with a more client focused offer where it's like you know, best, what's good for you what's good for your family, you can spend this print credit on anything you want in the store. And then I want you to educate them as to why albums

are so amazing. And in the blueprint, I teach a whole process that happens that starts after the client books with you. So you've already gotten the Yes, and they know that they're going to have this print credit. And then we are teaching them over the course of time between when they hire us. And when they get their images and have their print credit. In that period of time, you can educate them about whatever product you're most excited about, so that they are most likely to go for that

product. We're not forcing them, we're not giving them the opportunity to argue that like they don't want that. So you know, we're gonna throw the whole thing out, but rather we are coaching them and helping them make a decision that we think will ultimately worked

better for them. So again, the request there is like instead of doing print credit or in addition to print credit, I want to make a smaller print credit but also include this particular product, I say save yourself the headache, give your clients more power from the get go and then get strategic about getting those products in their hands. Anyway. Finally, the third hold up or sticking point that people come to me with when it comes to the simple sales process is the

phone call. So again, for those of you who are familiar with the process, I start my client interactions off with a phone call with prospective clients and I have 1000 reasons for that. And they are time tested in my business and a lot of people's businesses and and I really am pretty stubborn about saying no you really need to talk to your clients before they become your clients. You need to talk to your prospective clients for so many different reasons.

but a lot of people I said before that the the first one that I talked about about including all the digital files with each collection is the most popular. But now that I'm talking about it and thinking about it, I think that asking for alternatives to a phone call is actually the most common request. And I think that that's, you know, it's kind of a sign of the times, there are a lot of people, especially younger people who are averse to getting on the phone, I was talking

about my teenagers before. And my older son is always like, you talk on the phone all the time, like he and his friends don't talk on the phone, they text. Now, my teenager is definitely not my ideal client. But I recognize that that you know, goes up. And there are plenty of people in their 20s. And even people who are older than that people who are my age who are just like, I don't like getting

on the phone, I'm not into it. I feel intimidated about it, my potential clients, like they won't get on the phone with me. So therefore, that's going to be a problem. Because if I, you know, forced them to get on the phone with me, then and they're not willing to, then I have no chance of having them hire me so. So I understand the

pushback. And what I will say is different about this sticking point than the other two is that I have stopped saying like, Nope, I really think you have to get on the phone, because I have had several students who have gotten good results using alternatives. So there are a bunch of people in the blueprint group who are now instead of getting on the phone with prospective clients using a personalized video that they create, to respond to inquiries.

And we've talked a fair amount inside the group about how you know that like the the pros and cons there. And, and some people are having better results with it than other people, obviously. And that's always the case. But that personalized video that you create, when someone reaches out to you, does give you the opportunity to achieve some of the things that a phone call

helps you achieve. First of all, it puts a face to your name, it gives people a little bit more of a picture of what working with you would be like rather than just numbers on a page, which is what we are kind of presenting to people when we give them a PDF. And I think that it makes an impression just

because it's unusual, right? So somebody's getting a personalized video that's a little bit more interesting than than doing, you know, getting back a pricing PDF, which they're getting from every other photographer who's writing back to them. So I think that that can work. I think that, you know, we've talked a little bit about what needs to be included, hopefully inviting people to participate in that

conversation. Because the one thing that video doesn't give us the opportunity to do if it's just a single video that you're sending, is to respond to people's hesitations questions, understand, like hear in their voice, what they don't get, or what they're confused about. The two way conversation is a little bit better for that kind of

thing. So I have also started recommending tools like boxer, or, you know, like Marco Polo, something where you are inviting people into more of a conversation, even an audio message in like the DMS of your Instagram account could work to invite this kind of conversation. So what is different between this third change that people want to make.

And the other two, what I see as being different different is that with the first two, it's really, it comes down to kind of a rigid belief that the way that things are must be the way that they should be. So in that first one about including all the digital files, you're saying, I'm too afraid to say out loud, I do things differently from the other photographers that you have talked to or I'm doing things differently now than I used to the way that I used to do them and then standing up for

that decision. I think that what it indicates to me is that they haven't fully been convinced themselves that what they're offering is better. And that's okay. There's nothing, you know, again, I'm not saying that My way is the only way to do anything. But, but I do think that in order for simple sales to work as a whole, you kind of have to you have to agree with the premise that we're building the whole thing off on to right versus with the phone call.

These students of mine who are coming up with with alternatives are solving the same problem which is asking people to make a decision as to whether or not to hire us kind of solely on price. They are solving that problem in a different way. So they are coming up with With other strategies to respond to that to that particular stumbling block that our clients have. So it's kind of the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law, I am all for you bright, thoughtful, independent,

creative professionals. solving your problems in your own way, I have a method that has worked for me, it's worked for a lot of other people, but, but I want you to use those creative brains, it's part of what makes your business better. One really great example of this, and then I will wrap this conversation up. But one really great example of this is it I have a lot of students now in simple sales, who are using soft proofing in their workflow. So I don't do

soft proofing. Soft Proofing is where instead of fully editing all of your images, you show your clients a sort of baseline edited version of their images, they choose their images, and then you do the full edits. And I had a couple of clients or a couple of students who came to me about 18 months ago saying, you know, I do soft proofing, I like that, do you think simple

sales could work. And we talked about it, and I was like, I think so you'd have to add a couple of steps, but, but I think you the whole, you know, the basic idea would work. And they have taken that ball and kind of run it down the court. And now I have this whole group within my group that they do soft proofing, and it's working great for them. And I am all for it. Like, that's something that I never really considered before I started teaching simple sales, because again, it's not part of

my own workflow. But having these other super smart, you know, thoughtful creatives who have learned my system, and then they say, Oh, great, I'm going to take that, and I'm going to take the strategy behind it and apply it to what I need. That is awesome. If we can get more of that I'm all for it. I have no ego about my way being the only way. And every time that ego starts to grow a little bit, I come across somebody who's like blows my mind with their amazing ideas and their amazing

adaptations. But I don't want my students, you know, believing that the system can't work for them, because they've gone and made it change, where they actually change something really important, that's fundamental to the way that simple sales work. To bring this back to my kids, you know, it's like, my kids would love to have unfettered access to screens all day long. But that's just not going to happen while they're living

under my roof. I want them to you know, get outside and move around and have social interactions and real world goals and not just like, oh, I have a 40 day streak on this thing or whatever. I also want them to prioritize their schoolwork and their chores and their sleep before they are just zoning out in front of their screens. I have, I think really good well thought out reasons for my thinking in those cases, that you know, structure and guidance that I'm giving them, I think are going to be

beneficial. But I'm also totally aware that spending a lot of time on screens is probably going to be a reality in their adult lives depending on what they do professionally. I mean, in theory, one of them could grow up to be like a movie critic or a video game designer

or something like that. And they could spend all day every day watching TV or playing video games and then their 28 year old selves or whatever could call me up and be like, see Mom I told you, but even if I could look into a crystal ball and see that that was their future, it wouldn't change the way that I am parenting them now, right? I would see that as like a new interpretation of the same values and I would hope that they were still making time to

do things like get outside. But um, but I am working with the data that I have what I know works, I'm doing that as a mom

I'm doing that as a teacher. And I would say that anyone that you are learning from whether it's me or someone else hopefully has a similarly strong set of like recommendations that they make based on good data good reality and then also the flexibility to say like you are welcome to Do with this what you will if you change it up dramatically you may get dramatically different results. But I think that you know to do otherwise to say you have to do it this way or it won't work at all is probably

the sign of a weaker system. So hopefully that all makes sense and and give some value and again if you haven't had a chance to check out the simple sales masterclass, you can find it at this can't be that hard.com/simple You guys have a great week. Well, that's it for this week's episode of This can't be that hard. I'll be back Same time,

same place next week. In the meantime, you can find more information about this episode, along with all the relevant links now It's and downloads at this can't be that hard.com/learn If you liked the podcast, be sure to hit the subscribe button. Even better, share the love by leaving a review on iTunes. And as always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.