Back when I was in high school, there was this silly movie that came out called multiplicity. And if you're not familiar with this pretty bad movie, you don't need to go out and watch it. But the basic gist is that Michael Keaton plays like an average Joe who has a job, he has a wife, he has kids, he's, you know, his time is being pulled in a bunch of different directions. And he
feels kind of overwhelmed. And then one day, he gets signed up as a volunteer to, to be cloned in this, like secret science experiment. And, you know, hilarity ensues. Anyway, I think of that movie. Sometimes when I have the situation where I end up with this, like, perfect client experience, where you know, everything from when they first reached out to me, they were super excited to work with me, not just like, hire a photographer, but they're like, Oh, we've been wanting to hire
you forever. And then, you know, the shoot goes super well. They're easy to work with. I like their family. I like their kids, they like visually inspire me, all those kinds of things. And then when I deliver the images, they go crazy. They love the photos, they're telling their friends, they're, you know, tagging me all the things like it's essentially from start to finish, like a perfect
experience. And the reason that that makes me think about multiplicity is that by the end of that silly movie, there's like 20 different clones of Michael Keaton. And I'm like, I wish I could just multiplicity, this client, I wish I could
clone this client. So when I first came across Heidi Thompson, who actually wrote a book called clone your best clients, I knew I had to bring her on the show, Heidi is based in Southern California, and she runs a membership for wedding professionals, not just photographers, but professionals in all the different wedding, you know, areas of wedding, the wedding business where she helps them market their businesses
better. And, and she and I had this amazing conversation about how to not just come up with a client avatar, but really get down drill down on the details of what it is that makes your client, your ideal client, find you where they find you how they find you, how they connect with you what you did, or said or showed them that got them to hire you in the first place, so that you can then take that and replicate it going forward with additional clients. And I know you're going to love this
conversation. There are so many amazing, like, easy to implement strategies that she's going to share. So I will go ahead and cue the music and introduce Heidi, welcome to this can't be that hard. My name is Annemie Tonken. And I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more
sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it and I can show you how. Hey, hi, do you welcome to this can't be that hard. I'm super happy to have you on the show today. And to get to meet you, I have been kind of stalking your website. And I really love what you have created in the world this space for like wedding professionals of all kinds, including photographers, but I feel like you've got such great marketing
info on there. And, and I am excited to dive into it.
Thank you so much for having me. I'm a big ol marketing nerd. I'm really excited to be talking about this kind of thing. And I have a long history of marketing all sorts of stuff. Yeah.
I was, like I said, doing a little deep dive on your on your site and literally was laughing out loud when I got to the part and I'm not gonna I'm gonna let you tell the story of your, your most interesting. You've done marketing for all different kinds of things. And the one that is the most interesting.
Yeah, so I was the marketing manager for a fecal transplant clinic, which is definitely interesting to try to communicate in a way that isn't weird. There's really not a way to do it. It's gonna get weird. Yeah, well, I
would say I hope that they were able or they gave you license to have a sense of humor about it, because for sure if your marketing shit. Yeah, we'll have to decide whether to beat that out. I don't usually don't usually curse on the podcast, but that is anyway, it made me laugh. I was like, That is such an amazing challenge. I feel like it could be really hard, but also super fun. Yeah. And I mean, like we
were talking before we get started. It's fascinating. It's actually really interesting science. real weird to try to communicate to someone who doesn't know anything about it. Yeah, exactly like
it A random dinner table conversation for you. So good, so good. Well, with a varied background in marketing, and then like a foray into the wedding industry, you decided to sort of go all in on marketing, and teaching, marketing, educating about marketing within the wedding industry. And you've been doing that for a while now. Right? Yeah. It's been about 10 years
now. Yeah, that's amazing. I, I, I feel like the thing that struck me as really different about your business from so many others that I see has to do with the fact that you are bringing multi industry professionals together. And I feel like when you can do that in a community where you're really helping each other and sharing, I don't know, secrets is the wrong word. But like industry information or like inspiration, what a great rich resource. It's super cool.
It's fun, too, because then it turns into a collective, you know, mastermind, where, you know, for photographers, like, I'm looking to find out how to get referred by more planners, I can tag the planners and be like, they will tell you what they would like to have happen, right? And just go
yeah, when I used to photograph weddings, which has been several years now, I always felt like it was such a weird thing that so many wedding photographers and videographers would like butt heads. I don't know if that's true universally, but it is in my local market. And it was like, this seems like a crew and crew of people that could really work together. And I don't see why there's this weird like competition. Um, so I want to dive into what we are going to be talking about today, which is
cloning your ideal client. So why don't you kick us off with talking a little bit. I've certainly talked on the podcast before about ideal clients, I'm sure everybody's heard that phrase. But what's your take on what an ideal client is?
So what I see a lot of people do and what I think a lot of the advice just in the general business world is, is to make up this person and come up with some demographics and base your marketing around them, I have a few really big problems with that one, that person's not real, you don't know if they exist. And two, those demographics don't tell you what
to do. So there are a lot of different, you know, 30 year old women that are getting married, or 30 year old women that want to have a family shoot, their motivations are totally different, what they care about is totally different. And when we're talking about marketing, it is psychology, you have to understand what somebody wants in order to communicate that you
have the solution. Yes. And if you don't know that, then you're just like randomly throwing things out there, you're guessing, and you're making assumptions. And usually those assumptions are at least wrong in some way, and aligning them with what people actually want solve so many problems. Yeah, yep.
Um, yeah, I feel like the what we bring to the table, whatever our own personal limiting beliefs or mindset blocks, or whatever, often and I, I talk and teach a lot about pricing. And I feel like pricing is a huge one for people where they're like, I have scarcity issues with money. Therefore, everyone who wants to hire a photographer must also have those gets in the way of so so much. So then the trick is like, how do we get into the mind of the real person, not the avatar,
but the real ideal client. So this is
where this gets really cool is if you look at the people that you have worked with, that you wish you to clone and work with over and over again, we're going to go to those people and ask them certain questions that's going to give you the information you need about why they made the decisions they made, you know, what really mattered to them. And every single time I see somebody do this, they prove themselves wrong in some
particular way. So to give you an example, a planner that was part of my membership was marketing and the typical way of like, we can save you time and then she went through this process, she started asking her best people questions and found out that that was like number five, number six on the list of things of importance. The thing that was really important was either both people in the couple or one person was Indian, and they didn't want their sister's wedding. Their brother's wedding
their cousin's wedding. Every Indian wedding they had been to they wanted to put their unique spin on it. And the instant she shifted her marketing to be about I'm the planner that helps you put a unique spin on Indian weddings on multicultural weddings. People started booking her like crazy and she could charge more because it's an apples to oranges comparison if everyone else was like, Oh, I can help you like stay organized and save time and This is like I can help you with the exact
thing that you want. All of a sudden, it's not, you know, comparing you to everybody else, it's like you are the answer to that problem.
I love this, I was literally just today talking to somebody about the fact that what we are in the business of doing is really not taking photos, it is solving problems, like somebody is hiring you, because they have a problem in their mind, they're hiring you because their problem is they
need a photographer. But when you dig just a little bit deeper under the surface, there is something else there is some sort of like sense of, you know, oh, I wish I had this feeling or I, you know, I want my kids to have this feeling or my I want to have an album, you know, because my I grew up looking at my grandparents wedding album, and I love that so much. And I want to have something like that. But with a modern, you
know, spin. And oftentimes, I find that people have a hard time actually, like the clients themselves have a hard time identifying that you really have to kind of talk it out a little bit. So I'm dying to hear more about the questions that you suggest that people asked to really get at the heart of that
there are a lot of questions you could ask and the ones that really dig our why based questions. So why did you decide to work with me instead of any other photographer? Who else did you look at what ultimately influenced your decision, that's going to tell you how other people perceive you, which usually we don't notice these things about ourselves, and we don't bring them out as much as we could, in our marketing to help us stand
out. Another thing I really love to ask is Why did you decide to purchase whatever it was a purchase a specific product service package, whatever it was, and really, the thing I really encourage people to do is be a detective about this, get curious about it. And when someone tells you like, oh, it was really important that I have a physical album, you could stop there. But it's more useful if you ask why? Because then they're gonna tell you that story about their grandparents.
And they just wrote your marketing copy. Right, right. Right. Yeah. So I love why questions, you know, why did you book me? Why did you choose this specific thing? Why was this important to you? I like to ask, you know, who else did you look at? Or what other options did
you look at? Why is photography so important to you as part of your wedding, and I really like asking questions around who they are as people, because too often we look at marketing to like a mannequin of a person, you know, like this made up thing, but if you know, your people are really outdoorsy, and they're like skiing and kayaking on the weekend, then you definitely want to bring that into your marketing, if you know your people are like Harry Potter nerds bring it in near
marketing, it's going to connect with them on a human level that you just can't do if you're looking at it on this like weird surface level of like, well, they're 30 to 35. And they live within, you know, 50 miles of this particular city.
Right? Yeah. And in particular, as photographers, not only are we talking about the messaging that we're putting out there, but we're really talking about the images that we choose to show as well, which speak as loud as words, not just the style of photos, but the kind I mean, I think you've raised a really good point about like the kinds of activities that kinds of clothing that people are wearing, we get to show that in a way that will either attract or repel those
ideal clients pretty quickly. You know, if it's like the Harry Potter nerds and the and the like kayakers, which maybe there's some overlap there, but they seem like relatively disparate. That, you know, if you're showing one and somebody's sort of part of the other, and that doesn't resonate with them, they're going to kind of self select out.
One thing I love to ask is, How would your partner or how would your best friend describe you because it allows them to step outside of themselves a little bit to ask people like, well, what are you really into? What are you a nerd about? They'll tell you some things. But then if you allow them to step outside of themselves a little bit and say, Well, this is what my best friend say. And similarly, I love asking what would you say to someone if you were referring
me to them? Because that really highlights what was important to them. What it is that you need to communicate in your marketing that you're probably not communicating? And it's kind of going under the radar and you're just blending in with everybody else?
Yeah, that's a really good one. I love the you know, how would you describe me to a friend or how would you you know, tell a friend who was considering hiring a photographer you know about my business and then being like, great. Can you take that and put that in a Google reveal? Yeah, that is a As a good pro tip, that's excellent. So, any other star superstar questions that you always want to ask?
Yeah, I think actually my favorite is that how like, what would you say if one of your friends was, you know, getting married needed photographer? What would you say about me because it allows you to be a fly on the wall. And I think anytime you can ask people something that allows them to not be like the target of the question like, how would you describe me? Like, that's kind
of intense. But anytime you can give people like, if you were referring me, you know, even in the situation, like I said, How would a friend describe you and your partner? How would a friend describe you and your personality? I think a lot of people neglect to ask, where did you look when you were looking? Not just Where did you find me? But where did you even research like our wedding blogs? On Your Radar? Did you go to like directories like Wedding Wire wedding pro anything like that?
Or are they saying like, No, I asked my friend, and then I came to your website, or I saw you on Instagram, and I started following you. And then I came to your website, people will tell you how to reach them. And it makes it so much easier to make marketing decisions, because now it's not it's not an emotional decision. It's not do I spend this money on advertising in this place? Or do I not? It's Has anybody ever told me that they've used that
particular platform? If not, well, the answer is made for you. Right? If they do use that great, maybe double down on that, yeah, I think that's something that really helps to get rid of the stuff that just doesn't work. And really double down on the things that work for you.
Yeah, that's super smart. So these are all really great questions. And what I love about what you're doing here is like they're not maybe the questions on on a superficial level, seem kind of like, yeah, sure, that makes sense. But the way that you're asking these, like, the little twists that you're putting out, I think that's so so valuable. Um, so then my next big question is somebody's like, okay, great.
I'm gonna ask, you know, I'm going to call up my favorite clients from last year and say, I have some questions for you. How do you recommend people go about doing this? Are they getting on the phone? Are they sitting down on a? Or is it like a zoom call? Are they sending them a questionnaire, there's a lot
of ways to do it. I prefer having a conversation with Pete with someone you know, like, a zoom call, because we don't edit our speech as much as we edit our writing. Yes. And you get the little tangents that people tend to go on that can lead you somewhere really interesting. But the way I teach people to get people to agree to this is to just use straight up genuine flattery, like, you and your partner, like are my favorite
people. And if I could clone you and work with you over and over again, I'd be the happiest photographer on Earth, but can't do that. So I have to find people that are like us. So would you mind hopping on like a 1520 minute zoom call with me.
And then you know, if you struggle, getting people onto a zoom call, you can step down the commitment level a bit, or you can step up the incentive, you know, you can offer them a gift card, you can offer them a print, or you can step down the commitment level and put it into more of a survey format. So I'm a fan of trying to get people into a conversation. But I totally understand that that doesn't work for everybody. Not everybody has the time not everybody wants to make the
time. And that's okay, we really just have to figure out okay, can we incentivize it in some way? Can we hook them up with something to thank them for their time? Or can we step down the commitment level? So it would be you know, if you haven't heard back from these people, now we send out a survey to try to get them to do something that isn't as big of a commitment as like, you know, a full on call.
Yeah. Although I am also like a huge proponent of connecting with people I talk about it a lot on the front end when it's like when you're actually trying to book someone get on the phone with them, get on a zoom call with them, because I feel like you're able to read the conversation, you know, read somebody's reactions to things, steer it a little bit more in a in a more customized way. You learn tons of information that way as well. But I love this idea of getting on the phone or on a call
afterward and recording it. I'm gonna say like, oh, sure hit record. Because even though I feel like people are like, well, a survey will be easier for them. I don't want to ask them the favor of getting on the Zoom call. But my answer to that is actually when you think about it. it like having a sit down. If it's like a multiple choice questionnaire, that's one thing that takes like 30 seconds. But if someone's going to ask me to sit down and write about, like, How would I describe them?
That's actually a big time suck to your point, people are much more like they're much more likely to edit and rethink and say, Oh, well, did I fill this out properly or whatever? If, if they're having to, like write it down, versus if they're just having a 15 minute chat. So these are people you know, you've worked with them, like get on the phone with them. It's fun.
And to use, like the example of that planner who found out her couples were like, I want an Indian wedding. But I don't want like that in the morning. That came from a conversation where people were like, I don't want it to be like my sister's. And you could have left it that but then she's like, what's wrong with your sister's wedding? Like why she was? Well, it was like my brother's wedding and raisins wedding, and then it's like, okay, now I see the full scope
of how you feel. But it's harder to do that when it's in writing. And when it's, you know, we tend to like question our writing a lot more than we question just spitting out random sentences and tangents that we tend to go on just as part of natural language.
That's awesome. So do you recommend that somebody like they're listening to this podcast, they're out on a walk, they're gonna go back to their, you know, home office, or wherever they're gonna sit down, and they're gonna send out these, you know, a whole bunch of emails to past clients? Or do you generally have people like spaced this out where they're like doing one every other week, and they just put it on their calendar as like an ongoing to do,
I'm a badger, I'm a big fan of doing a bunch of things that are the same, and one. And then it's just so much easier to manage that way. I like to tell people like this is something that you do at this base level, when you're just figuring it out. Once, you might do it once a year with a couple of people just to like, check the pulse, make sure you're giving people what they need. Or if you're going to offer a new product, a new service, making
sure it's like really aligned. I do this whenever I'm just like, I don't know what to do here. I need to like go check in with the people that I'm serving, because they will direct me and I love any time like we have enough decisions to make in business anytime someone else can direct you anytime data can direct your decisions, like just let it be easy. Let it just guide you in that direction. And then you know, once you have those conversations, the next part is changing what you're
doing. So going through your website, going through your marketing, are you using the language that they used to describe you? Are you using images that would appeal to them? And what can you change and sometimes it's not even huge, huge changes. It's just the way you're describing working with you the way you're
describing a package. So that really connects these are like 10% changes that make a huge, huge difference and just open up the floodgates to the exact people you want to connect with because you've basically, you know, become this lighthouse on a hill that's like, Hey, if you're like this, I'm your person, come over here, you know, let's work together.
You're going to have the exact perfect experience and I just had this experience I have a branding session coming up with a photographer and I was looking for photographers forever and I wanted someone who works with a lot of like bold colors and the second I saw her work I was like this is exactly what I want I will pay you anything like Yeah, could I work with someone else for cheaper? Yes. Yeah,
I'm wondering if I know who you who you hire.
I'm not going to get what I want. Like this is what I want. This is the person that offers what I want so then it puts her in a totally different category Yeah, like okay, I could get the job done I guess or I could do the thing that I want and get the result that I really really one
Yeah, for sure. I feel like it does so much of the selling for you if somebody comes to the table because they want us specifically not because their price shopping or looking for Yeah, it just narrows it way way down makes your selling job a lot easier.
Yeah, making yourself the go to person for somebody does so much for you.
Yeah, that's great. And then I imagine there's a million ways to slice and dice the like goldmine of information that you get, not just in terms of, you know, your website copy and that sort of stuff, but like the those turn into little testimonials that you can pull out and put into your social media or, you know, people give you permission to share little clips From the Zoom call itself you know they're actually speaking those words and that that is a bigger ask obviously people get a little
nervous about being on camera but um, but yeah, there's there's so much good stuff there. Well Heidi This is amazing and and I feel like we've just scratched the surface so we're gonna have to have you back on to talk more marketing stuff later but in the meantime, let everybody know where they can find you. Yeah, so
my home online is evolve your wedding business.com You can find my membership there the wedding business collective, my podcast, and I'm most active on Instagram so you can find me there at evolve your wedding business.
I think most of the photographers listening are probably on Instagram a lot as well. That is excellent. Well, thank you so much for your time, and I will be talking to you again soon.
Thank you so much for having me.
Well, that's it for this week's episode of This can't be that hard. I'll be back Same time, same place next week. In the meantime, you can find more information about this episode, along with all the relevant links, notes and downloads at this can't be that hard.com/learn If you liked the podcast, be sure to hit the subscribe button. Even better share the love by leaving a review on iTunes. And as always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic
week.