If you've been listening to the podcast for a long time, you may remember my friend Cornell Watson. Cornell lives locally here, and he is a friend of mine from a few years back. But when he came on the podcast in the summer of 2020, he was sharing the story of his first solo exhibition at a museum. And in the intervening two years, or a year and a half, a lot has happened in Cornell's
life. It was always my intention to bring him back on the show to share some of these extremely exciting, amazing opportunities that he has had and created for himself. But in the past week, a sequence of events have unfolded that made bringing him back on the podcast, something that I wanted to do sooner as in. I reached out to him yesterday. We recorded this just a minute ago, and I am planning to have it
ready to drop on Tuesday. So without going into too much detail, I will just let you know ahead of time that this is a longer episode. And it is a bit of a departure from the norm. This is not necessarily business advice. Although I do think that he brings it around in the end to a series of some really important reminders to us as artists about the integrity of our work, and about fighting for the ability to maintain your
artists perspective. So with that, I will Cue the intro music and lead Cornell ticket from here. Welcome to this can't be that hard. My name is Annemie Tonken. And I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do
it. And I can show you how Cornell Welcome back to this can't be that hard. How are you? Hi, I'm
good. How are you?
I'm good. You are you are at the center of some some big stuff these days. Huh? Huh? Yeah. So for anybody who is not familiar, this is Cornell Watson. He is in addition to being an amazing photographer happens to be a friend of mine and lives in the same area as I do. So I know him personally, as well as professionally. And I had him on the show. It's been almost two years ago, shortly I It was the summer of 2020. It was I looked it up it was episode 36. So if you haven't heard that, you
should go back. And listen, when I had you on before, you had been sort of given the opportunity to have a solo show at a local museum featuring some editorial work that you had put together a series called behind the mask. And And again, if anybody who's listening hasn't heard this interview, I encourage you to go back. But your story in the in the past year and a half, almost two years has been quite exciting,
and very different. And and we're I would love to sort of hear in your words, kind of the the timeline of what happened between that summer. And now and then we'll kind of get to what's going on in your life at this point.
Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. It's so crazy that we had that conversation was two years ago. And it was that summer of 2020. Like pandemic summer. Yeah, so Okay, so let's talk about what's happening since. So when we were chatting, we were about to have the exhibition. I don't I don't even think but I hadn't even shown any images online or anything. No. Yeah. So that exhibition was scheduled for
like that fall. And I think shortly after I got an email from their magazine shortly after our podcast, not before the mass came out. I got an email from Durham magazine, asking if I had availability to freelance while somebody was on maternity leave. And the timing could not have been any better. Because that Monday when they contacted me, it was the Monday after I was laid off my job full
time, previous Friday. And so I was like, sure, like, even though like I have like a zero editorial magazine experience, like, I'm gonna take on this new adventure and like figure it out. And so I did a shadow day with Beth man who was a photographer from birth. magazine. And she showed me the ropes and like one day and the next assignment that I had one of the first assignments that I had was photographed and Keith Knight. And Carver is the writer and producer of a show called
woke on Hulu. And a very brilliant cartoon this. The magazine was featuring him because the the woke show was about to come out on Hulu. And this was my first assignment. And I'm like, on the inside, I'm like really freaking out. I'm like, how could this possibly be my first assignment? I need to warm up. Right? So this is funny because I don't think I really shared this story with anybody. So Beth man told me she was like, always take a light wherever you go, like always say lighting equipment.
And so I have my lighting equipment and trunk, which I barely used, like, I just didn't have much experience with lighting, but I knew enough to like figure it out, you know, kind of thing. And so, uh, we I pull up to Keith's house. And it's an afternoon, I realized, like his house, this is like completely surrounded by every single tree in North Carolina. And they're like,
they're around here. I look at people in California, you don't even know.
There was like a green walk. They wanted me to initially like see if I could take pictures in his home because, you know, he's got like a studio kind of thing set up in there, whatever. And I'll walk in there and like, there's like zero natural light that is coming into this home like zero. And I'm like, Okay, what do I
do? Like so let's go outside, like, you know, because I'm like going to my family photography instinct, some image, but even outside, it's like so dark because like it's just so many freakin trees. And so at this point, I'm like, Alright, Keith, give me a few minutes I'm gonna set up a light out here and I'm I set up a backdrop, it's going to try to make something funky and cool beside the chicken coop that he had back there. And I turn on the light, and the battery is dead I love it. The
battery is there. And so luckily, I like ask Keith if he had an outside outlet. And he did, and he had an extension cord. And so we got this long extension cord running from the house to like outside and it was chicken coop. But anyway, long story short, we had an awesome time in his backyard, like getting bitten by mosquitoes and like just sweating our butts off because it was like so humid and hot. But it was a good time.
And, um, we hit it off really well because like this was also around the time that you know, the Breanna Taylor was in the news and like we were having like these, like racial awakening discussions. And, um, for him, it was like one of the first times that like, there's first of all a black photographer that shows up, and that we can just have like, this is very open, honest conversation where we're like, making photos about like, what's
happening in the world. And so after that, a few weeks later, he called me back up. He was like a Cornell was like, um, I've got, he's like, The Washington Post is about to do this article on me. And I want to connect you with the photo editor to do the photos. And I'm like, freaking out. I'm like, what is happening right now?
Like, absolutely. I was like, I'll be waiting, you know, I'll be waiting by the phone every single second just waiting for this person to call and sure enough, they call and yeah, so me and Keith go out, like the next day because the photos need to be done. The next day, we got to take photos and I completed my first assignment for The Washington Post. And then that led to the behind the mask was
done. And I reached back out to the Washington Post and pitch the behind the mask to one of the photo editors who ran the photography section. And he replied back in like, less than 24 hours and was like I'd love to publish this and that kind of like that kind of set off like the firestorm of like the summer fall of 2020 because after that, after it published, like the New York Times like it reached out.
Like all it felt like a week after the behind the mass that publish the Washington Post reached back out again and asked me to cover the black voters and dermed on the election. election year and Ming's just kept going and then Paul Octavius M had reshare the behind the mask on his social and then I got connected with T Mobile during that summer through Paul Octavius. And I did a national holiday ad campaign for T Mobile that for that for the holidays,
which was like, so crazy. Like, I had zero like, like, everything was just like, you know, like, Trial by Fire kind of thing because like I had zero commercial photography experience. And I'll never forget like I called up Carolyn phone. And it was like a like Carolyn, like, This is unbelievable. But like TMobile reached out like and you know, I think it's a done deal. Like they're they're asking me for like a treatment, I had no idea
what the treatment was. I was thinking like, okay, like maybe there's like some kind of agreement and she was like, no Cornell she was like, like, this is so like, this is so exciting. But you have so much work to do before you even get close to like sealing a deal
on this T Mobile thing. And so um, the crazy part was like, everything was like rushed it was everything was urgent on the table that was like, they sent the email, they needed the treatment and a few days they needed to have a creative call, like in another day, like all these things that I had let it know how to navigate and Carolyn was like, just like call you need you need to call the agency like right now. And I ended up
calling wonderful machine. And um, oh my goodness, what Bill I can't I can't remember the the president the owner of wonderful machine, but he's like a really like top commercial photographer. And he like rarely like, is the one that does the negotiating and things for the for the deals or whatever. But the person that typically does the work was out of work that they and so I'm like, I'm like hammer dialing a wonderful machine. I'm like, I've called it I've called the main office
line. I've called like, Craig's cell phone number. I am like emailing. And then finally I get a I get a call from Bill who's like, Hey, what's going on? I kind of thing and I tell him that like, you know, like, team, I have a call with T Mobile tomorrow. I have no idea what I'm doing like just helped me. So he helped me put like, Bill helped me put together a treatment for creative call Long story short, he liked helps me navigate everything from front to end. And I ended up getting
the deal with T Mobile. And yeah, in the rest of the year just ends up being crazy. I did more stuff for the New York Times, um, stuff for ProPublica. And then in 2021, it just kind of really continue. At the beginning of 2021 I got awarded the Alexia grant to continue like, work on behind the mask. There was more like more photojournalism work. I can't remember like all the stuff that happened last year, but it was
like a lot. Did another photo series for The Washington Post called Happy to see you here. And yeah, I felt like there was like, publication started to expand. So it was like Mother Jones that reached out I did a thing for Mother Jones. I was working with Jessamine Jessamine Stanley, which was a lot of fun.
Another local here. Yeah,
another local um, we did some stuff, some commercial work with Jessamine for like bomba socks and Adidas and me undies was another commercial campaign that we did. And yeah, like 2021 was just kind of crazy. And then I did like my first. My first big travel assignment was for the New York Times last year where they sent me across the country to photograph families on the story about the child tax credit. So that that was like,
that was a lot of fun. And yeah, and then last year, I also had an artist residency that started at UNC Chapel Hill.
Okay, so let's so you had at that point, I, like a CV that people who had been in business for 1000 years would kill for and how did the How did the residency like do do you approach them? Did they approach you? How did that come to be?
Yeah, so they, they actually approached me in 2020. It was shortly after the behind the mask I published in The Washington Post. And I got an email from the director of the Stone Center, which is the Black Cultural Center at UNC Chapel Hill. And it was basically like, hey, we saw your photo story in the Washington Post. It's evocative. And we would like to see the we interested, see if you'd be interested in doing something at the Stone Center exhibition
Stone Center. And so I responded back and was like, Absolutely, because, you know, like, this is like a big deal. Do a residency at like, one of the top universities in the country public universities. And so things didn't come together, though, until, until 2021. As far as like them, like, having things in order, like budget and all that kind of stuff to do
it. Oh, the Art Department was disorganized.
Oh, yeah. Just kidding. So yeah, so then in April ish, they started kind of give me an idea of like, you know, like, we'd like for it to be themed around black spaces in the black community of Chapel Hill. And in June, they sent me an offer letter for the residency. And that's what I started working on it was in June of 2021.
And just pause what, like, the offer letter, you said, you feel like they were, they wanted you to do something themed around black spaces in Chapel Hill. Do you have? Did you have a sense at that time? What that meant, what they thought, what their interpretation of what that meant was?
Yeah, so the conversations prior to, I feel like a lot of things are very rooted in the behind the mass, like, it was a lot of referencing back to the behind
the mask series. And even in the offer letter, they reference the hanomag series, we had a conversation, like one of the examples, one of the initial conversations like what's like talking about, like, how do we get how do we get people to see, especially how to get people to see a space, the way that we would see a space and remember, remember, like, see, remember a space the way that we remember it, too? You know, so this? This is like the, like, the black gaze on? On these spaces? Yeah.
I mean, it's like kinda like, you know, it's a very, like, interesting way to like, think about spaces, right? Try to get
people to see them. And so yeah, so in the offer letter, like they talk about, you know, they talk about, like, wanting to basically be describing behind the mask, because it's talking about, like, you know, that the exhibition would be a mixture of conceptual and documentary photography, that basically, like, elicits response from viewers and gets them engaged, and is open to interpretation, you know, try to think of like, some of the other things that they said in this offer letter,
and, yeah, so like, am from my perspective, I'm like, Alright, like, I have started writing, like a list of things that I was gonna, like, do conceptually for behind the mask work. And at this point, I'm like, I'm gonna keep that list. And I'm still gonna, like, make those photos but I'm like, Okay, now I have like, a whole set of like, like different things to approach, you know, with under the same I have, like, behind the maps.
It's basically like at this point, like it was filling like an extension that behind the mask, because it's basically the same exact work. Yeah, I was like, really excited, because I was like, this is like, this is what I do, like everything that y'all are saying. There's like everything that like, you know, that had been anticipating and planning to do for 2021. Yeah, I started working on it. Like, almost immediately, I went out
to the university. In June, I started visiting some of the sites that they suggest it silence Sam, which was the Confederate statue that used to be on campus and where it used to be, so it's not there anymore. On some Founders Memorial, the place where James Cates was murdered. So it's like, there's a lot of heavy, heavy heavy like content on in these places. And then I started following the Black Student
Movement. And around that time, the Nicole Hannah Jones situation was unfolding with her tenure decision, and I decided that I was going to go out to one of the demonstrations that the Black Student Movement was having, and just kind of listen and just, like see what they're talking about document a little bit. I didn't know at the moment whether or not it was going to be like having a relationship to
They work to the spaces. But when I get out there and I started listening to them talk and the whole conversation wasn't completely centered around Nicole Hannah Jones but that they also had issue with their not being the memorialization of James Cates at the place where he was murdered. And that the unsung Founders Memorial is like, often desecrated by people that walk up to it and eat lunch on it and sit on it, and white supremacist
calm and march around it. They were talking about the safety of black students on campus. Like, I immediately knew that like, okay, like, I need to continue to follow like this group of people because they, I could feel that they were tied to like something that I was working on with the spaces. And so Oh, I follow them to the board meeting, which was like a few, like a week later. So I documented there.
I'm gonna just jump in really quickly, because I want to give enough context, the Nicole Hannah Jones story was a national news item. And it may have reached a little bit internationally. But we had a lot of people listening who are probably in some other places. So Nicole, Hannah Jones is a pillar Prize winning journalist, she was part of the 1619 project that the New York Times had launched. And she was up for the to be, was it the night chair?
Right, so this position at UNC, which was her alma mater, and she was going to get this position, and it was a very sort of, like, revered position, you know, it's like a super competitive, illustrious thing to be given. And then when she got the actual offer, it came without tenure. And it had historically always been like a package deal. You got tenure when you got it. And so there was this very large, very understandable kerfuffle about that. And ultimately, UNC voted
to offer her tenure. And at that point, she was like, nope, thanks. but no thanks. And she went to take a position at a historically black college instead. And so that was sort of the national news story. And that, so yeah, job of some memorizing that I haven't. Yeah. Yeah,
that's it. And so I am, so I follow the students to the board meeting where they're having where they're gonna make a decision about her tenure. But instead of going in through the media side, where the photo journalists were at, I went in with the students and followed the students and then when they were in a completely different side of the room, and things got really intense inside of the room, because they it was an open meeting and a meeting open to
the public. But what they never communicated to the students where it was that they were going to turn it into a closed meeting. And so the student, the Black Student Movement, and faculty were like, very caught off guard during that meeting. And there was a lot of verbal exchanges, I snapped a photo of Clayton Summers, who is one of the board of trustees that was there making the decisions, the photo is like he's in the foreground and the students are
in the background. And like he like turned and like gave me just like there's really just like, like, I don't even know how to describe this look that he gave me but um, but my camera was right there in and I had in the in the thing was like I went, I went almost as exploratory I really didn't go the document, but I brought like a really small camera had a Fuji X 100 V. And that was the only thing that had us a fixed lens
camera, 35 millimeter. And I figured that like if that was all I had, and they would just let me walk in with the students and I could document from the student side. And so I'm behind the Board of Trustees table in took the photo and taking some other photos of like all of like the conflict that was happening with the police pushing the students and like trying to push them out of the room and like there was a lot going on, but back to Clinton summers like so at the time, I didn't really
know who it was. I just know that this guy's statement is just like really evil look. Then when I went back to find out who he was, and I really understood why I had this really evil look because he was one of the people who helped architect this multimillion dollar deal to give the Confederate statues sound and sound to the sons of the Confederacy of the daughters of the Confederacy, which is basically like a white supremacy group. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I
don't even know what to say. I mean, you take it for what it is God architects a deal to give multimillion like millions of dollars to white supremacist like I mean, he just tells you everything you need to know about that person and their
character. Yeah, so I'm there and I pocket these basically like, I know that like this moment is going to be tied somewhere into like the series, and then I work on the first concept, the first concept photo which was a About the unsung Founders Memorial, and silent Sam, the, the Confederate statue and also on Founders Memorial is this tabletop memorial that is paid for by one of the graduating classes at UNC Chapel
Hill. And it's like a tabletop design that sits really low to the ground that honors the black enslaved and free people that
built the University. And I wanted to make this photo about that space, not entirely what the photo wasn't entirely about on some founders, but it was about that space, and how much that space was just symbolic of the university in the community with this, like with when you sit down and look at the full story, because that unsung founders, they have like these tools that you that you can sit down, and you're supposed to be able to go there and just kind of like, you know, have a
moment, I suppose to bring people together like that was the reason that was designed that way. But the other reason that it was designed low to the ground was so that when you sat down at that table, that you would be somewhat forced to look across and see sound, sound, and take in the full, like the full
history of the university. So you have the free enslaved people who were resilient and fought through like an endure and all of this pain and trauma and did all these amazing things, but building the university under the weight of this white supremacy that sits in the background. And so the photo was really just like using like force perspective to make people actually see it that way.
And making the silence sound like a reinterpretation of the way that I saw solid sound, which is basically like a white supremacist holding a noose and hovering as a shadow over the over the rest of the over the rest of the university. So this I came up with that first concept. And so that same night, when I made that photo, it was like, right after I was done, which is crazy. I'm about to say this, because like, I feel like this is the exact same thing that like I was talking about.
And behind that one, we had the same podcast about Rihanna, Max, is that after I made the photo, like police showed up the campus police showed up and was asking, like, they were like, questioning us about like, what were we doing there? And I told them, I was an artist and resident, and that I was working on a photo series about the university. And they asked me for ID me Mr. frame for ID and like, I found it very weird because it's a public
institution. And anybody can walk on campus, anybody can do whatever they want on campus, as long as you're not like, you know, doing something illegal, right and take
photos on that campus. I have never been asked for identification.
Yeah, and like, it was like all camera equipment, like it was like camera equipment everywhere. I had like lighting gear all over the place because I had the light it back had the backlight and then had to have a light down on the monument. So it was like lighting gear everywhere. And then I had my camera bag, like laid out with a camera. You're laying out everywhere. And so when like, I wasn't, I didn't be rude, but then my brain when he was like, What are
y'all doing here? I just want to be like, oh, like, what do you think are doing here? You know? I mean, we're not making pizza that hey, with all this equipment. Um, so yeah, so that's why I D writes down information like, that was like weird too, because I'm like, well, like, what are you doing with my information? Like, you're writing it down? Like, what are you doing with it at that point, like, I'm like, Alright, do like, I tell my
friend. I'm like, Alright, I have the photo, then at this point, like, I'm just ready to go. So we leave. And then the next day, I emailed the Stone Center. The photo wasn't the next day, but it was shortly after I email than the photo in like, in my raw feelings about why I created the photo at that time, just kind of letting them know like this is this is where I'm going with this photo story
right now. And then also tell them about the police incident that never gotten in and never gotten any follow up by the police and where my where my information went. And I got an email back or is basically like they were pushing back on my photo that they like, I don't think this is how they envision
like the photo. And I like really didn't care because like, if there are requirements for the photo for the photos for this exhibition, then we're talking about different engagement here like this is no longer residency like we're talking about, like commissioned work, and like, and I can call Craig and the people that wonderful machine and they can send you some commercial rates. Like this is what we're talking about.
I say because I'm assuming that this was not a paid gig. This was like maybe they funded something but
I got a stipend. And it was Yeah, I got a stipend that is different from being paid. It is very different from being paid. So I got a stipend to do this work. So yes, I got pushback on it. And like, in it was vague. It was it. Let me take that back. It wasn't vague. It was basically like they like he didn't agree with the figure of the noose been hovering over
the monument. The unsung Founders Memorial he, like, I think what they said was, like, you know, if it was, if it was my ancestors, I wouldn't want, I wouldn't want to see a photo in a gallery space of like, this, like noose and finger hanging over, like this representation of like, my ancestors. And I push back on that by saying, like, well, this is like, actually what happened? Like, I didn't make this up, you know, like, first of all, was silent, Sam, they are not there, you
know? And second of all, like, is white supremacy at the top of the hierarchy or not, you know, like, I'm not making any of this up, like, you know, like, I like I disagree. And so like, we like, we disagree, I kept moving on dig in. And they continue to, like, play, I felt like they were like, trying to influence and push me to, like, create something different about the ensembles more in silence, Sam, because then they sent me the
artist statement. And like, his vision for the unsolved problems Memorial. And like, I basically pushed back again, I was like, like, his artist statement validates the image that I created, like, like, yeah, and then they sent me an invite to, there was a community meeting about OnStar families Memorial, and that I tuned in to listen to and like, I never got a moment where I didn't feel like what I created was like misrepresenting, like, that
place at all. So I moved on. And then later on, I started to create the rest of the images. So it took a while to come up with like, concepts and ideas. But I was like, basically, like, I was like spitballing a lot of stuff thinking about like, what, what can I do like try not to worry about the limitations and just figure out an idea and then
worry about the limitations. And then in November when I started like execute on like, some of the photo concepts like the other one was like the Roger Eubanks community photo that was like the hardest photo that makeout all of them because I'm the street sign is like 12 feet off the ground, it's like really
hot. So for those that are listening, that don't know about Rogers Eubanks, their community in Chapel Hill, that have been impacted by environmental racism for a long time, like since the 70s, it is a predominantly black community that was formed after formed after enslaved people were free. So after the slavery was, was was done, they moved to this community. And even right beside the community, there are like unmarked graves of enslaved people that are buried out
there. And in the 70s, they decided Orange County decided to build a landfill almost literally like in their backyard. And the impacts of a landfill on the community like that are just like for it. There's the snail, there's the contamination of the water. There's just like the quality of life that gets impacted. And they like they fought like crazy
to get it shut down. And they fought really hard to get clean water to the community because they ran a water line around the area and literally stopped it like right at that community store. And so, um, they fought for years to get clean water. And so I really wanted to make this image to just kind of show symbolism that they rise above like this really literal trash situation. And they were the ones who fought to bring clean water to their own communities.
So there's the activists who is one of the original activists who helped fight to get the landfill solid waste portion, shut down and bring thing water who's on this ladder like watering, watering, what is a representation of the community that is blooming now because of the work that they did, but you can still see the trash that is
like piled up beneath them. But yeah, it was crazy because like, we had to build like a platform to like hold the trash at the very top of the song blossom blown bones floral, helped do the flower installation. So they spent like, at least like two hours early in the morning to like get high up on a 12 foot ladder and do this flower installation at the top. And then I had like, maybe eight students that came out and help hold up they helped to hold down
the lighting equipment. Because like the lighting equipment needed to go up really high need to go as high as the pole and it was windy that morning. So I held it I was using a scrim to soften the light in the block the sunlight that was coming through the tree so that the light could be somewhat even around the scene. And then I there were like four students that were holding up a backdrop Stan and holding a backdrop to get the backdrop to the height of the side light and it was
windy that morning. So it was like a lot of like, it was like,
see on a sailboat
like a sailboat like right behind the sign with the activist like, who is probably like 70 years old,
like, what could go wrong?
What could go wrong? All right. Um, um, yeah, like I say all that to say is like, we like a lot of thought went into the images and concepts. And so I deliver everything in December, right before meeting that we're gonna have to talk about the photo series, and the exhibition. And in that meeting, unsurprisingly, like I got pushed back on the unsung Founders Memorial photo, and I got pushed back on the student demonstration photos.
And it was it got really heated and intense, because like, I was filling censored, and I knew I was being censored. I mean that because like, they wanted to exclude those images. And I got to a point where I just said it out loud. I was like, I'm being censored. And they got mad when I like just like really called it that way. And it's like, this is not censorship, like you don't know what censorship is. And this is like, No, this is
it. Like, you. You know, like, if I went in tow, you know, will my daughter, you know, if I recited the itsy bitsy spider story to her and told her that, like, you know, we're just gonna take out the water spout part of the story, then this is not the itsy bitsy spider anymore. And she's gonna be real pissed. That is the song that she wanted to hear. Discussions. And we basically with Oh, go ahead.
I was gonna say, can I ask a question about that meeting? Was it just you and the board? Or did you have anybody kind of there on your team?
No, sources me, it's me. And the Stone Center is like a leadership. So it's like the director and like two other people that are like associates on for leadership for the Stone Center. So no, so yeah, so it's basically like three people. And then it's just like me, like advocating for myself, okay. And like, So towards the end of that meeting, we leave it with, alright, we're all going to get feedback. Let's come back, and like, get some feedback. And let's just see what people say
about the photo story. And so I went and got some feedback from some photo journalists that I know one, I got some feedback from a photojournalist that works for the news and observer. I got one from a freelancer who does like a lot of work for like some national publications. And then the big one that I got was Bill Shapiro, who was the former editor in chief for Life Magazine, and life, calm, reviewed it, he actually
reviewed behind the mask. And so I was like, Alright, if if Bill sees this photo story, and he gets just as excited as he was about behind the mask, and I was like, I'm not budging on this, not one bit. Sure enough, he was like, really excited, like the same way that he was. And, you know, he has some critique and feedback, which is very similar to the behind the mass feedback, like he thought that the whole series should have been in black and white from behind the mass.
And he said the same thing for this one, but I don't know, I just thought it was really unique to have the same image about growth. And like this, like this scene about, you know, that has, like plants in it symbolic of growth to be in color. But that was Yeah, so I stuck with it.
Doesn't seem to me that that was UNC, his complaint, like well, but black and white.
Yeah. So I go back. So we have another meeting. I come back to the table with this feedback. And this review from Bill Shapiro, they in a nutshell, they basically just, like dismiss, like the feedback that I got. And I asked them like, Okay, well, did y'all get any
feedback, man? And I got a really vague answer, which was like, you know, like, we talked to an art like an artist, and I can't remember what artists they talked to, and they basically say, like, you know, is whatever the artist creates, I mean, like, is their art. And then that was it, like, didn't have anything in writing that they got back. Like, if it was starting to feel like I was the only one like doing the work
to say you did your homework, and we're like, oh, we were hoping maybe you would have changed your mind.
Yes, yeah. Um, and so at this point, I'm like, was already like, like, convicted in the work and but even more so now, you know, like there's like these validations that like, okay, like this is what is supposed to be and at the end of the conversation, like they're like, you know, it's either we're gonna exclude the we're gonna have the exhibition without these photos or we're not having an exhibition at all.
And in particular, it was the student demonstration photos and the silent Sam photo.
At the time, that's the that was it, what it what ended up happening was I told them, like, before that meeting was over, like I told them that one that like this really cuts at like my values, like in general and, and really, as an artist that like, you know, this, it's like tearing off a corner of a painting and saying that like oh, like we
want to exhibit it now. But we you know, and I told him to like that would take some really serious consideration when I came back, they we basically came to an agreement that we would have a photo exhibition without those photos, mainly because like I we were going to miss, we were going to miss an opportunity to truly have like a real discussion about these
stories. And this an opportunity to honor the people that were in those photos and the black community to be able to see themselves in these 40 by 60 photos on campus and Chapel Hill. And so the other thing was like, I was like, it's also my photo series, like, you know, like, it's my work, I own this
work. And if I want to show the full story like to somewhere else, then I will do that, you know, but I'm not going to like hide, like this work that I did in the story that I put together, because it's really ridiculous in the first place. And so we march onward towards trying to have a January 3 opening, or the exhibition, which was the target date. So in early January, we get the photos
printed. And, um, I also reached out to the Washington Post, reached out to an editor that I worked with there, and I send them the photo series and I let them know, they're like, Hey, I just finished an artist residency at UNC Chapel Hill, I want to show you the work that I did, let me know your thoughts. And he responded back with like, the work is amazing. And I love to publish it. And we went on business as usual. And like I gave him the files and the text.
And you know, like, it takes them like about a month or so to like publish something because they also have to get like editors to review it and make sure everything is right, which takes a while, but they also have a backlog of other photo stories that are going on. So um, so that's like simmering in the background, this thing is going to publish at some point
probably in February. So January, the third week of January comes and there's no photo exhibition yet i i Go there thinking early February to look at the photos and arrange like basically arrange them like the way that I would want them to be saying. And then they second week of February, they came out with they came up with a date of February 22 for the exhibition. And then they sent out like a Facebook invite, or facebook event thing. But then it went down like the next day.
And then they call me to say that, like they needed to move it to a different date, because there was a scheduling conflict. And so that moves to the 24th. And then they call me almost immediately afterwards. I actually we need I mean, the 23rd. And then it was I actually moved to the 24th. And I was like all right, and then move to the 24th. And that Friday, like that same Friday, the Washington Post article published so that was like this past Friday, which came on what date that is now.
Yeah, the 18th maybe 18
Yeah, so um, I said, we're recording
this on the 24th. So
and so I sent a text message to the associate director who had been texting me recently about like some logistics about the gallery, the exhibition, I texted in the article, and I never heard back that was early like on that
Friday morning. And then on Friday evening, I got an email from the Stone Center via Dr. Jordan, the director that uh, basically to summarize was like, Sure, the the associate director, he's saying that associate director sent him the article from The Washington Post that at this moment, they are currently not going to mount the exhibition. Good luck with your future endeavors. then that was the end of the emails, three sentences, three short sentences. And I was like, I was
like, oh, so angry. Like, I don't think I've ever been this. I haven't been that angry in a long time. And it really takes a lot. It really takes a whole lot for me to get angry. I'm, I'm like a very even keel. And like, yeah, I can. Yeah. So I was in here, my office when I read when I read the email, and I'm like, I call my spouse McAllister. And I'm just like, you're just not gonna believe this. I'm not gonna respond back to this right now. Because I'm like, way too
angry. Um, so like, I just let it simmer over the weekend. And then that Monday, I responded back and basically summarized, like, the past this summer of like, hey, like, we originally was supposed to have this the third week of January. And now we are now we are only a week away from when the exhibition is supposed to open. Can you please explain why you're deciding? Not
to map the exhibition? Because, like, one I needed, like, I needed to have that timeline on writing, because, you know, I had to fill in never gonna, like try to say that, like, I purposefully, like, published like, the full photo story before the exhibition, which was not the case. But also I know truly, like why.
Yeah. And you had said that that was not in your contract. Like there was nothing about the residency contract that said that you couldn't have that those images published elsewhere. Correct. felt like you were breaching the agreement, and therefore they were right.
Yeah, I mean, and that's what I followed up with after I got another response. But it was that, you know, like, we never, we never had any discussions about the limitations of the work outside of the Stone Center. And if that were the case, then there would have been some contractual like agreements around that, because that's heavy stuff like that means that I need to grant you all an exclusive license to do
that. And actually, I needed to grant you a license to show the art that was in the exhibition in the first place, but I've never received an agreement. So like, at the dorm Arts Council, like there's an agreement that like I'm giving them permission to show the work or at Duke NASA was like, I'm giving you permission to show this work on
your walls. Because they don't want to get in any trouble with me saying that like you weren't supposed to show this work, but they didn't have any they there were never any discussions or contractual agreements around limitations of the work and so that was my response that was part of my response back to
them. And part of the response back to was about the fact that nope, no one has an exclusive license to like to the work if that's the case, like I need to be compensated you know, like in a different form like this all goes back to like maybe maybe their vision of like residency is more like commission and after my last response back to them where I basically like tell them that like that like you know, this is disappointing one is disappointing because you know, you really tried to censor
me but it's also now disappointing even more disappointing because like the whole thing is like you just decided to cancel the whole thing. And I capped it off with you originally contacted me because you saw the behind the mask and the Washington Post even referring to as evocative here we are now where you're trying to make me wear the mask and good luck with your future endeavors that was like
I really hope you signed up that way.
I actually literally signed off that oh my goodness. I love it. Yeah. Because yeah, I mean, at that point, like it's at that point like it was obvious that like there was like, that was a level of respect that I wasn't getting anymore from the first email there was no crossing that bridge back again that like the waters the grounds for conversation like had been tainted, like to even like revisit having exhibition have been tainted. Yes. Yes. Like Alright, let's, let's move on.
Um, so yeah, so that's what we are now. Like, and, and since since, let's see, yesterday, so yesterday, I had an ad, like, basically like to my followers on social media for the first time that the exhibition was canceled, because the stones didn't tell anybody there was like no statement or anything, but I owed it to the people that hadn't He plans to come. That was the other part that was
frustrating. Like, I know one person from the family narrative that brought a plane ticket to come see the exhibition in March. And so people were making plans to come. And yeah, so that that part like is like, it was just very inconsiderate. And so since Tuesday, when I posted on social media that was cancelled, it's been like a media firestorm. Because it is, is UNC Chapel Hill again, you know, like, yeah, it's like fresh off the heels with Nicole Hannah
Jones thing. And obviously, like people want to know, like, why was canceled? Why were they trying to censor the work? And these are all very valid questions of like, why? I think everybody deserves to know why censorship was happening or trying to happen and why they just canceled it instead of like, not having it at all? And is this normal? Is this normal
behavior for residency? So I feel like there's a lot of questions, but at the end of the day, like, you know, what I've like been, well, I've told like the, like, some of the media outlets that have reached out is that like this, like this photo story, like it was not about me, and it was not about the Stone Center, it was about the black community of Chapel Hill. And now that has the power of
telling that story there. It was completely taken away by not having an exhibition, but we will definitely find a place like, my goal is to absolutely have something in Chapel Hill, where the community and people can just come together in Chapel Hill and like, see the art and engage with it and have a conversation and for the community to be able to see themselves in art in a very truthful, unapologetic way. And so yeah, so that's where we're at. And so it's been like a
crazy 24 hours. I think I was literally on the phone all day long yesterday with like journalists like, trying to do interviews to like till like this part of the story. And I'm sure there's like a larger story with the political landscape of the university right now. And like the way that it is really leaning more into like, this new conservative, like conservative political landscape where there's like, more active suppression of like history, and
black history. And yeah, so there's, there's like a lot within that story that they'll pull out. But I can only tell them my story, and I saw after them.
I wonder if somehow we could like, go back to Cornell three years ago, and be like, guess where you're going to be in three years, that's what's going to be happening three years from now in your life?
Oh, it'd be like you are lying right now.
But at the same time, as crazy as I'm sure that feels, and you know, like the story, like you can't make this stuff up, right. But at the same time, you know, again, it in advance, and I am just going to jump in here and say like, I am so grateful that I know how busy you've been in the last 24 hours when you posted this, and I reached out I was like, he's probably going to be like, I have bigger people who talked
like that, like this whole shitstorm is happening. Like I've had the illuminate course kicked off this week. Like I feel like like, Yeah, I'm like, yeah, that happen. And then like, I had, like one of my first big assignments, um, that was happening for ESPN this week, which was like a multi day assignment. So this is like a shitstorm of just like, everything happening in life,
you know? And but it's like, but I have to like, like, in the order prioritization, it's like, I have to do these interviews, because if I don't say if I don't have an opportunity to tell, like my story, they're already going to control like, you know how they are, they're going to control the narrative and say, what he's gonna say that like Cornell didn't like, agree, whatever he put in his email, like they he didn't agree, he didn't uphold his end of the bargain or agreement,
which is not true. And so yeah, so I was like, Alright, I have to do this because this my is my character and my integrity and my reputation, reputation that they are like, basically coming at and coming for, and my core values that were basically cut it during the whole experience of even having to consider to remove work from the full body photo story. So
Well, I mean, I'm thrilled to have you on just because it's always interesting to talk to you about all the exciting stuff that's going on my As the political drama but but I am grateful that you're sharing this story at this juncture with a bunch of photographers who, you know, that's who listens to this. Because I think that, you know, a lot of people don't ever get into the realm of the, like political or like, towing any kind of line that somebody is going to give them a lot of
pushback. But art does have that power. And that, what was the word that they used about? It was when they talked about behind the mask? They said it was? Right, yeah, it is. And like, boy, they, they got paid for in terms of, you know, having something evocative that was really uncomfortable for them. Yeah. And it's about to get more uncomfortable if I am.
As present, as I believe I am, in this particular case, but But you know, I, at the same time, I want to, I want to acknowledge, like, I know you as a person, and you're this. Just, I mean, you said, it takes a lot to get me mad, you are so quick to laugh. You're such a gentle human being. And it kills me just personally, that you're being put in this position. Like, I'm here to make art people.
Yes. Yeah. That's like, part of my anger, too, is like, because like, it does feel like you know, like, they, it does feel like they took my kindness for granted,
you know? Yeah. Because I really was like, really kind and like, because there were a lot of times where I didn't have to be kind, like from the very beginning, whereas you were just like, all this pushback on like, the art that I'm like, trying to create, like, I didn't have to be calm and consider like, other suggestions of like, creating it, and you know, all that stuff. So yeah, but here we are.
I'm, I'm extremely impressed by the intentionality that you put toward all the work that you do, and that you're willing to, I mean, it's a lot of energy to go to bat for yourself in this kind of a situation. Like, you could just be like, Okay, fine. You don't want to exhibit this stuff. Whatever.
Yeah, in this very easy to do that, because I already been in the mental place of doing that. Sure. But yeah, at the same time, it's just like, Hold on, wait a minute, like, can't because like, it's also, you know, like, we're not completely detached from our art, you know? Like, yeah, as a relationship to it. And so it's like, yeah, it's like, you gotta go, Yeah, you got to fight. Yeah, you got to advocate for yourself and fight for yourself, even when it's uncomfortable.
Yeah, that's right. And anyway, well, it's, in some ways, it's one of those things where it's like, maybe the story will be able to be told on an even bigger scale, because of the hardship. I'm sorry that you're in the, at the forefront of the sharp end of that particular stick. But, but I can't imagine a better person to be telling that story and like, kind of going after it. They they don't know what they got themselves into with you.
Yeah, I don't think so. Either. And, like, you know, like, I think part of too, like what, like, I think one thing too, that like, helped me, like, feel grounded and just kind of moving forward. It was one, I knew the people that I had photograph, like, because I had shown them the full photo series before like, so I felt good about that. But then yesterday, I had one of the first calls like when all the
craziness happened. One of the first calls I got was from a local a local community activist in Chapel Hill, who is the descendant of enslaved people that built the university. And like she's like a very prominent figure in like the Chapel Hill area, and she called me and she was like, first before I say anything, I just want to let you know, I saw the Washington Post article and I can't tell you how
proud I am of you. And like in that moment, I was just like so relieved because like you start to second guess yourself because like you are in like this firestorm of being gaslit into believing that like what you created wasn't representative of like what you intended and that like, like you'd like you are deserving of like these things that are happening but then to get a call from like, the one person that you know, you value so much because you've seen them do all this work in the
community, like you know that these are these are her people that you are talking about in this photo story to say that was just like very validating. And then at that point, I absolutely felt more comfortable with just like, you know what I'm gonna make some noise like I'm just not gonna sit around and just like let this be what it is. And yeah, I took a few more interviews
man, this can't be that hard. Well, this shouldn't be that hard. What you're going through right now. Man. Well, I feel like what an amazing story and I will be very interested to watch the rest of it unfold. And I appreciate you taking the time to share it with a bunch of photographers from all around the world. I think we can all draw a lot of inspiration from you and your story. Thank you know my pleasure. Thank you. I will hopefully be talking to you again soon.
Yeah, absolutely.
All right. Thanks. Oh, and Cornell I should I almost forgot the most important parts. Tell people where they can find you.
You can find me at cornellwatson.com. I am also @cornwhzzle on Instagram. There we go.
After smile when you're saying it's the best Instagram handle out there. Alright, and I'll link both of those in the show notes. Thank you so much, Cornell.
Thank you.
Well, that's it for this week's episode of This can't be that hard. I'll be back Same time, same place next week. In the meantime, you can find more information about this episode, along with all the relevant links, notes and downloads at this can't be that hard.com/learn If you like the podcast, be sure to hit the subscribe button. Even better, share the love by leaving a review in iTunes. And as always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.