EP 114: Chain Reaction Marketing with Ben Hartley

in the summer of 2021. Or really, if you're listening to it anytime, but I was fine. Summer is a particularly good time to work on your business. I wanted to invite you to sign up for the simple sales masterclass that I offer for free over on my website at this can't be that

hard.com slash simple. If you've been listening for any period of time, you know that the simple sale system is the foundation that has provided me with the success that I have achieved and now is serving hundreds of photographers around the world. And it is the sort of thing that doesn't really necessarily take a long time to set up in your business. But it does take sort

of a concentrated effort. So the reason I'm telling you this now is that if you like me have your work concentrated in the fall, or if you you know are in the getting ready for your busy season. now is the perfect time to take the masterclass and consider whether you want to set that up for your business, it is changing the income and workflows of hundreds of photographers around the world.

So, again, that website is this can't be that hard.com slash simple, you just put in your name and email address and I will send you a link to the masterclass which you can watch on your time. So go sign up and enjoy today's interview with Ben. Welcome to this can't be that hard. My name is Annemie Tonken. And I help photographers run profitable, sustainable

businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it. And I can show you how. Hey, Ben, it is so great to finally have you on this can't be that hard. I cannot believe it has taken us this long to get the two podcasts together. How are you today?

recommendations? And I'm always like, Did they say Did they say the six figure photography podcast? Did they say Ben Hartley and I keep seeing automate? This can't be that hard. I keep seeing your name pop up over and over and over. And so I just I'm excited to be here. I know you've got an incredible audience, a great community around this podcast. And so thank you for the opportunity.

But at the end of the day, maybe Ira Glass is beyond this, but I'm totally with you. Like I'm in those Facebook groups being like, do people like my podcast? Yeah. So yeah, that is that is fun. But I've been listening to you for years. But you know, you've been around for quite a bit longer. So when I was starting this podcast, you were a big inspiration. So yeah, like I said, I can't believe it's taken this long. But here we

are. And I know we're gonna have a really great conversation that will be sort of a melding of the minds today. So before we get started, and I have a lot written down that I want to pick your brain about, but I would love for you to just do a brief introduction about you know, Ben Hartley, the photographer, Ben Hartley, the educator, and give us kind of a little synopsis of your story.

all this stuff. And, and that's really where the emphasis became. Now, again, it wasn't my idea to become a wedding photographer, either somebody else that was very important to me, they kind of like breathe it into existence, even I mean, like when someone like speaks something, and you're like, oh, my goodness, this is now real. And it just said some point started with a breath. I think it's actually fascinating. When I think about it, like the things that I have in my life,

at some point. They were like, breathe into existence. And so my wife, we got married the week that she graduated college, and we were like, kind of screwed. Like, not really screwed, but like, so let's kind of like stack it against me for a second. So we got married the week that she graduated. And so we had like two layers of student debt kind of on top of each other. And again, I was an oil painting major in Ohio,

right? Like the money is not like rolling in right out of college when you're doing that. And, and then as well, I was in full time ministry for a year. And I love the word it this way. It turns out that if you're doing ministry, right, it's not the most lucrative thing. And so we were just kind of like trying to figure out life and like what to do and how to make money. And and so we were brainstorming, and I'm like, Okay, well, I'll get a server job and all this

stuff. And then it was Leslie, who is like, Ben, you love people. And you're decent at making things look good. Why not be a wedding photographer. And so there we go. We were like, Alright, we'll be waiting for divers. And that's kind of where the where the, the idea. first started. Now, I'm going to share that story because it ties in to the education side of things. Because that night, that very night that she was like, Hey,

what about this thing? I was like, okay, maybe you have a family friend who's in portrait photography, a senior portrait photographer, maybe I'll connect with them. And I'll just pick their brain a little bit just to get an understanding of like, what is this industry? Like? Who are these crazy people that are photographers and and what are they up to? Is this viable is something that I should actually consider not to try to, like get trade secrets? Again, I'm not

even at that point. I'm just Yeah, I'd like I don't know, is this what I want to do? And so I called them up. Now. So man, automate you again, I'm sure you've listened all the podcasts, and you've been to all the conferences, and you read all the books, and you probably have business coaches, and mentors and all these things. And same, and yet to this day, the words that the photographer told me still have been the most

inspiring thing. They've been like the driving force, and I definitely, at least for the first, maybe five years of my career, they were the driving force. And so I'm, I'm on the phone with this photographer. And I'm pacing back and forth in my little kitchen. That's what I do. And I taught that's what

doing that. And it's just driving the industry down. Right? You step into this, you're gonna keep lowering the industry. And so that, you know, listen, no judgement on the on the bloke, I'm sure he's coming from a certain mindset a certain basis. He wasn't trying to be a dick. He just happened to be one. So, but I hung up the phone that night, and I was like, babe, we're starting a photography business, like let's go

great. It was great for for Leslie and myself and for our clients. But in the back of my mind, the ringing sound of that photographers voice saying you will only bring the industry down was like, ah, and so the podcast actually started as a way for me to bring the industry up. Now I started the podcast seven years ago. And at that point, you know, we were doing six figures, and it was good, but other people are doing so

many other bigger things. And I figured, well, how about I just interview other amazing experts and just bring their knowledge to, you know, the community. And so I did that for a while. And then, at some point, after doing that for a few years, I was like, I think I have something to say, yeah. And so now I, I have a mastermind group, it's free for photographers, and I'm, I do free coaching in that every week. There's been stretches on me where I've done free coaching

every day for years. Three days a week, because I got a deal. Yeah, let's put any that's like maybe the broad sweeping kind of points of the journey.

healthcare. But I was very quickly hitting a wall where I was like, This isn't what I want to do when I grow up, even though I'm 30. And I'm, most people would say, I'm at that point, I had two kids, and it was, you know, the whole thing. So I thought I was having this crisis of like, Oh, I better figure this out. And it was, I mean, I took photos as a as a hobby. I enjoyed it. It was fun. And it that seed was planted in my head where it was like, you know, there's a career path for

that. No, oh, wait. And then and then like, the gloves were off, I was, you know, ready to go. But similarly, I had somebody tell me many years in your Well, just to give my people probably know the story, but I was getting divorced. And the divorce attorney turns to me after we were reviewing my budget. And they were like, so are you going to go back to your other job? And I was like, What?

How dare you. And I immediately was like, I gotta figure this out and turn this into something that scales to take care of my family. So I sometimes think that that challenge can be leveraged for good It can be turned into a call to action, you do a lot of coaching. And so I'm curious to know, what you think stands between most photographers and success?

controlling the ship. And so,

doubt from other people. And they, they, like, instead of pushing that, you know, using that to propel themselves, they almost hold on to it and let it sink them like an anchor. And I think that has a lot to do with that mindset. So I'd love to hear from you a little bit. I know you do coaching and remind me it's called as transformational coaching. transformational coaching. Yeah. And I'm curious to hear just a little bit about like, what the, and we don't have to get too,

too into it. But like, what the push is there? Are you is that transformation, sort of helping people get past their own mindset and mindset blocks?

There's no there's no whoo In what I do, or in any transmission coach, in my opinion, I think it's just the, what I try to do is, is just stand with people like to actually commit myself to what they say they want, and to just have their back, and to hold them accountable to what they say that they want. And then to just get really curious about everything that's showing up in their life, all the results that they're getting, just get really

curious about that. And so, maybe even on that note, if your response, as you heard my story, if your response to your own brain was like that, I would have been out, I would have been like not I would have been like, Well, I'm not doing this, I would have felt really defeated, that would have put me into, you know, a spiral. I just get really curious about, about that, about why that might be and what emotions are connected to that and what needs aren't

being mad. And just, again, I think curiosity is like really the key to beginning to reverse engineer the results that we're getting in our life.

as our as our guide for that. So I love that you bring up curiosity, I think it is one of the most underrated qualities in human beings, but in entrepreneurs in particular, keeping your eyes open and staying curious about what people are talking about what people are looking for, what the subtext is of you know, when they call you and say I want pictures like what are they really want from you, and being able to meet them there is one of the absolute keys to success so well, and even to not be

judgment. I

that wasn't bad? Like, what if it wasn't bad that that was your response like that the innate response you had was one of like, Oh, I can't do this. What if we got curious about where that comes from? And what maybe is going on and why that exists? Maybe it's not bad that it exists. Maybe it served a purpose at some point, let's say curious about what purpose that could have served. And it's interesting when we can start to like resolve those things like,

Oh, that's not bad. That was actually helping me for some reason. I wonder if it's still helping me, we can start to like, take control of it, you know, have more control over those biases than they have over us. And so anyhow, man, now we're off to the races here.

But the area that I want to get to today is less of here's the answer for you. This is like exactly what to do step by step and all that stuff. But I'd rather ask some questions and invite even the audience into asking themselves some questions when it comes to their marketing strategies. Because man, y'all are brilliant. You your listeners have so many ideas that I haven't even like come up

with. I've never thought of I've never considered the possibility Not only that, but like you've got people who are doing like, you probably doing pet photography. You've got like, boudoir photographers, equine, f1, how do you get the horse or I wrestled, got all these different niches that they're going to have different ways to

get clients. And so rather than me trying to give, here's the one thing to always get clients, I'd rather give you guys questions to ask and this maybe just ties back to the Curiosity thing. And the question asking kind of side of stuff. And so just to try to connect some dots here,

But I love the approach that you take, which really is comes from a position of curiosity. Talk a little bit more about that.

past all the other stuff. And then I'm sure somewhere in there is how do I get clients how to market my photography business, how to run Facebook ads, how to do whatever it is, right? Yeah. Oh, man, my heart. This is like, oh, my goodness, wait,

go farther, right? Like, if we're going to spend time on something to get new clients in the door, we need that time to go farther. But we also need our marketing dollars to go farther, because I don't know if you're like me, but like, especially when I just started off like, Man, I'm trying to figure out how to afford new equipment, I'm trying to figure out how to afford all this software, contracts all of these things.

And then on top of it, I've got to figure out how to make my marketing dollars actually work for me. And so chain reaction marketing is kind of like the the the term that I would use to describe what we're going to talk about today. And this is this is something that you can use to make your dollars go farther to make your time go farther to really supercharge any current marketing strategy that you already have. Okay. And so feel free to stop interrupt

me at any point, surely. But so what is chain reaction marketing? Well, I think to start, let's start by, can I share my number one rule of marketing? This is my, this is my number one rule. Okay. I'm not gonna wait for you to give me permission to say no, just I just knew I saw the look in your eye. Like she's gonna tell me No. Okay, so Ben's number one

rule of marketing? Is this, if the marketing effort is one dimensional, okay, if and I'll explain what I even mean by that, if the marketing effort is one dimensional, it's either inefficient, and you shouldn't do it more far more likely, it just hasn't been thoroughly

thought through. Okay. So when I say the marketing effort, being one dimensional, a one dimensional marketing effort, like imagine just like a book that's like sitting upright, and you topple the book over, okay, it's like a one dimensional a unilateral move. I coach photographers, I've been doing it for seven years. And, and the thing I keep hearing is like, you're doing the right things you're doing so much. It's like bad. I'm doing Facebook ads, and

I'm doing reels. And I'm doing Tick tock, and I got SEO going. And I'm posting blogs. And again, all of the things yeah, you're doing to market business. I've got vendor relationships, and word of mouth. And as I tend to get behind the curtain, a little bit of the business, what I keep noticing over and over and over is so many of these marketing efforts are one dimensional, meaning they're like disconnected. It's like, well, I'm going to do a bridal

show here. And then I'm going to build relationships with vendors here. And I'm going to run Facebook ads here. And if you can kind of visualize this, it's like a whole bunch of dominoes that are like separated, just a little bit too much yet. And when one falls over, it's just kind of like a quiet little kink. And then, and then we're panicked because we need to do more. And so we'd knock over another one Tink, and then we're panicked because we're out of time, and so we knock over

another one. And what I want to see happen and what I tend to work with photographers is how do we link these marketing efforts together to create a chain reaction and the best visual I can give for you is one that's like, I'd love to go back in time to see the first example of this ever given. But I see it happen in comedies and in cartoons a lot. And so I'm going to set the scene here, the the, the, the kind of comedic character, they walk into a

museum. And it cuts to a shot of like all of these, like super rare fragile artifacts in the museum. And in the center of the museum is like a Tyrannosaurus Rex. bone structure, right. And you already know where this is going. Yeah, and they're kind of like clumsy. And they like trip, and they almost fall into the dinosaur bone. But then they catch themselves. But then out of their pocket, like a penny falls, and then the penny rolls, and it knocks over a cup. And then a cup knocks over a book.

And then the book knocks over a vase. And then the vase knocks over a pillar, and then the pillar max over a suit of armor, and then the suit of armor, you get this, you know, and then boom, boom, boom, and it keeps toppling, and eventually, the suit of armor, you know, knocks into the train of source racks, and the whole thing comes tumbling down. That love it, what you want to have happen with your marketing, that would be chain reaction marketing. And what happens is, it is an

exponential thing. It's it's this, that little Penny eventually knocks over the traders arthrex essentially, it's a transfer of energy. But it's that toppling effect. And so if we can do that, then our money is going to go so much further in our time is going to

go so much further. And eventually we're going to hit this kind of like critical mass with our marketing, where when the train of source Rex falls, what that looks like in your business is like, Man, you're booked out, not only are you booked out, but you're booked out at like, the top, you know, for me, and I get that there's waiting for divers, who are you at is such a higher level. For me, that's like our average before we do print sales is 9400, then we do another 3000

with print on top of it. And so it 12,400 is where I want to be booked out your 2022 by the dinosaurs fallen and I'm in a great position, right? I'm going to stop talking.

that. But my question to you. So how do you get there? How do you go from all the little dominoes separated on the table? Just to a little bit too far that you know, they're not knocking each other down? What questions are you asking what curious thought process? Are you following to design a domino effect that will serve your business?

all it takes. I think a lot of times, probably marketers, photography educators have gotten you to buy in or believe that there is some secret Juju that you need to do this thing. And when you do it, it's gonna be the domino that's gonna knock over the Tyrannosaurus Rex and all your problems will be fixed. In all reality, you're probably doing pretty much all the right air quotes all the right marketing efforts. It's just we just need to adjust how you're showing up in them, and how you

can connect them. Does that make sense?

dominoes. And what you're pointing out about making small adjustments and really questioning what, okay, how can I move this just a little bit so that you're not doing all that work over and over. And starting

from scratch. I think that that is a really important thing because we do have very limited time resources as usually solopreneurs and wearing all these hats that it is it is an extreme waste of our resources and our energy to try and like start, build and then restart and rebuild over and over again. But it's something you see all All the time,

brides are. A, that's where your new photographers are, it's a waste of time, it's a waste of money, your ideal client can't be found there. They're not there. And so there's this narrative that kind of goes on. And I've discovered, I believe, I believe that by the way, I have believed that I should say in the past, until I started to consider what else could be just as true if not more true, like, what if I was just doing them wrong? I was like, What if it

was my fault. And I've changed the way that we do browsers now. And now, my average I expect anytime I do a show is to walk away with about 70,000 in sales, with amazing clients. And it's very possible. It's, it's, it's the kind of a tangible idea of how we try something, it doesn't work. And so we file it away as

mitt. And then what happens is, you know, we do that over and over, and eventually, we're just kind of like, and I feel so it's such a sad thing to me, when I see a photographer who just says, No, I've done everything and it didn't work, I'm giving up. And they they just throw in the towel. Man again, just to encourage them. It's not a groundbreaking thing. It's not like this thing is gonna completely blow your mind. It never is. Truly, it's always the subtleties. Anyhow. So okay, so

let's talk about this. Let's talk about some of these questions. I think the biggest question that and and probably the biggest thing is we want to make sure that we're knocking over the right, dinosaur bones. I keep using this analogy. That's good. I like it. Because the other thing that I tend to coach for divers with is they've knocked over this giant set of dinosaur bones. It just wasn't the trainer source Rex. It was like a Brachiosaurus. I don't even

I want to be going around the world and doing other things. Yeah. And so I think the first question that that you should ask yourself is, how can I use this marketing strategy? Whatever it is, right? So right now, let's imagine you probably need clients, you're thinking about something to do, you're going to spend some time or money on it, whatever that is. Maybe it's meeting with vendors to give them vouchers for your business. Maybe it is a community. Not a raffle, but a

fundraiser. So how can I use that to move my business closer to the vision that I have for my life? Because if you don't ask that you're going to find yourself face to face with a business coach being like, Hey, I, I want to start photographing elopements. And my whole year is booked out here in Ohio or whatever the or whatever the thing is. And so then you're trying to like, move against the grain. But what if we were to just like, keep moving ourselves closer and closer to what we

actually want? Right? And it's such a basic question, isn't it? But if we actually stopped to consider these Facebook ads, I'm about to run. Alright, so I want to get some more wedding clients for 2022. And I'm going to run some Facebook ads, and maybe I'm going to do a giveaway. How can I use this giveaway? By the way? I'm just making up examples. These aren't like whether or not you believe in giveaways, that's fine. How can I use this giveaway? To get wedding clients

in 2022? How can I use this to move me closer to the vision that I have for my business in my life? Well, it probably need to figure out what your vision is for your business in your life. And I think that probably be the very first thing before you do any marketing effort. Try to figure out what what are you trying to build? What is the life that you're trying to design for yourself? Because

man, you can design your life. I don't think you realize that because you're so concerned about getting clients that the scarcity is just driving you towards I need more clients. need more money? But pause? Because before you want more clients more money, let's consider what is the life that you want to build? What is this thing that you want to design? I've made that mistake already, probably three times. Yeah, I just like woke up one day, and I was like, shit.

the goal here? What are we actually trying to get to and that not only can be different for different people, it should be different for different people, like you're living your best life. It's not me living my best life. Right? We have different visions for that, probably out of I guess, I don't know, we could talk about it.

But that, you know, the there are as many goals out there as there are people and so you know, it's really easy to look around and see other some somebody else's version of success and start walking toward that mountain. And like, you may find yourself halfway there being like, Ah, this isn't, I'm getting no joy from this. Yeah,

connect with her. Yeah, like, what if that were the goal? Not necessarily more money? Or what if the goal I mean, man, for some people that goal? What if the goal is like to leave a toxic relationship or to step away from something? Yeah.

this thing. A lot of them, they supported each other, they came together to support each other. And so who else can I partner with? What other business? What other individual can i partner with? In this marketing effort? Is there any possible way I could partner with someone to make it a success? How can I do that? Right? And if you spend five to 10 minutes, just really thinking about that man, who can i partner with this? Who are the relationships that I already have that I can bring into this?

But also, man, I don't have any relationships? What if you just started and you're like, man, I don't know nobody? Perfect? How could you use this marketing effort to introduce and to start new relationships, right to bring into this? I think that can be a really powerful question that question alone, if you were to do every single marketing effort, with a partnership with a relationship in a meaningful and intentional way, already, your effort is going to be exponentially

multiplied. Yeah. And the really cool thing about that, too, is like when the marketing effort is done, when it's over when it's expired, or whatever it is, that relationship continues, right? And that relationship continues to serve you continues to serve them. This sometimes can go hand in hand with that last question, but I always also am trying to ask myself, okay, how can I move this marketing effort out from behind my

screen? Okay, so maybe I'm doing some sort of Instagram contest, and I'm trying to gain a bunch of followers. Or maybe I'm trying to build a Facebook group, you know, and I'm doing a giveaway with that or some sort of contest. Is there any way that I could move even that effort out from behind screen. How can I do that? Is that

possible? Yeah, can I do? And when I say out from behind the screen, maybe and I know with COVID times, I think we're starting to move past that, where people are meeting in person a bit more, depending on what, where you're at in the country. Yeah, but maybe I should say past it, but like, we're starting to see a little bit of light. Maybe when I say move out from behind the screen, maybe it just means at the very least, like showing up, like air quotes in person. Like, where

are you? You're like, right now, actually, I feel like in a way, where it's close to in person is we're gonna get right now on it. Yeah. Like, I'm seeing you on screen. We're connecting in this way. And it's different than just an email. And it's different than just a DM. And so how could you do that for anything that you're doing, get out from behind the screen and get more in person? And maybe that means a phone call? Maybe that means a voice message? Maybe that means a video message? Okay,

very passive. When somebody dm you and you respond to them with an even something as simple as a voice message where you're, you know, leaving them audio instead. Like that's different. It registers that different as different and it humanizes you. And I think that that human connection has always been super important, but has never been more important than now because it's harder to achieve.

is this thing called value? And I think we need to consider the outside pretty much we need to consider all the other possibilities outside of functional value. Photographers love functional value, well, I'm gonna get it to them faster, and they're gonna get more images. But what about the intrinsic value? What about esteem and love and belonging? And we can go into Maslow's hierarchy of needs here. But to keep me on track, you

photos all the time. Of course, it's important to get on the other side of the camera sometimes to remind yourself of what that feels like. But even still just remembering how hard it is for some people to conceive of having their photos made even if they want to.

here. Like, and then some way that's like just another analogy of just like where people are at even with their, with these moments that they're

the time. And the truth of the matter is, it's not, but it can be done in an efficient way if you're strategic about it. So those questions are, are awesome.

limited. And it almost feels like to just even do a giveaway at all feels like a huge amount of effort, or whatever that marketing effort is to run a facebook at all feels like oh my goodness, I did that thing. And you almost want to wash your hands clean of it. Right? It makes sense that you feel that way. It's just my plea and my invitation to to just even if you just blocked off on a calendar, you start your morning off this 30 minutes and to start

just answer these questions. If you can just brainstorm and try to answer these questions, even just the few that we've done today. It'll make that effort so much stronger. Okay. That's awesome. So I'm gonna, what is I'm gonna give you one more, one more question. And it's it's a it's another one that so yeah, of course. So, SEO, Search Engine Optimization ranking organically on Google is also one of those things that like, I feel like as a creative I myself have have like, over complicated

it. I've, I've like kind of catastrophize the whole thing. Until someday I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna do SEO, and then I go and hire somebody for way too much money. And then I don't know if any way to relate to this, this kind of story. But SEO is a long term game. And if you could just simply ask yourself, whatever marketing effort you're going to do this week or this month, how can I leverage this? For my long term

Seo? Is there some way that I could make sure that I optimize this in a way that allows me to show up on Google, maybe not today, maybe not next week, but it's going to be another little stone? It's another chip away? And so that's just another one? How can you turn literally, you could turn anything that you do into a blog post? So yeah, just to document that is you How could you How could you leverage this for for long term Seo? Okay. Well, there's a series more questions, but we'll have

to talk again. Okay. Yeah, I

can get. And so I love having you out there in the world giving it Ben tell people where they can find you and where they can find out more information about your your new class.

growing my own business. I'm like, Hey, this is what I'm working on. Just a way for me to show up for the community so they can see somebody else out there is is working. And so you can do. And that'll give you a little bit more exposure to me. But the course that I have is called book solid. And what book solid is, is it's the playbook. It's kind of like, it goes beyond just these questions. And it really then shows photographers how to take all of the things and link them all

together. And it is it's a 12 month content calendar for your marketing. So like, it's literally it's kind of big. It's like, hey, it's July, what should I be doing to get more clients? And how do I make sure that as I'm doing this, it's benefiting the other marketing efforts that I have, right. And so at any point, you know, I just I remember being a diver and being like, I know I need clients, but I just don't know what to do. I feel like I need to do everything. But But what

is it? Yeah, and so this is kind of like the full layout of what that is. So it's called book solid. If you go to Ben Hartley comm forward slash booked, you can learn more about the course there.